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Why Dell Won't Offer Linux On Its PCs 628

derrida sends us to an article in the Guardian by Jack Schofield explaining why he believes Dell won't offer Linux on its PCs. In the end he suggests that those lobbying Dell for such a solution go out and put together a company and offer one themselves. Quoting: "The most obvious [problem] is deciding which version of Linux to offer. There are more than 100 distros, and everybody seems to want a different one — or the same one with a different desktop, or whatever. It costs Dell a small fortune to offer an operating system... so the lack of a standard is a real killer. The less obvious problem is the very high cost of Linux support, especially when selling cheap PCs to naive users who don't RTFM... and wouldn't understand a Linux manual if they tried. And there's so much of it! Saying 'Linux is just a kernel, so that's all we support' isn't going to work, but where in the great sprawling heap of GNU/Linux code do you draw the line?"
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Why Dell Won't Offer Linux On Its PCs

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11, 2007 @11:44PM (#18312312)
    I support a bunch of Windows boxes, in addition to a bunch of OpenBSD machines.

    As far as Windows and daylight savings goes, XP/2003 boxes were all patched by standard patch-tuesday patches. For win2k it took me a grand total of 15 minutes to research it on MS's website, write (+ copy/paste) a few text files, and roll them out on the Active Directory Domain. Not really tough. There are lots of problems with Windows. Daylight savings time just wasn't a big one.
  • Support (Score:4, Informative)

    by delirium of disorder ( 701392 ) on Sunday March 11, 2007 @11:48PM (#18312330) Homepage Journal
    Dell couldn't manage to support GNU/Linux, but lets not forget that Dell doesn't really support Windows either. Sure it's impossible to explain to your average user that the Internet and their web browser are different things. This doesn't change if the browser is IE or Firefox or Konqueror. However, as a "geek" I regularly need to provide tech support to friends and family. I have a much easier time doing this once I have switched them over to Ubuntu from Windows. It's simply more user friendly and secure. If you are looking for a new PC, I would highly recommend system76 [system76.com], not any big OEM that functions as a division of Microsoft.
  • by H3g3m0n ( 642800 ) on Sunday March 11, 2007 @11:59PM (#18312410) Homepage Journal
    I doubt Dell would have much of a price reduction for systems shipped without windows.

    There was that article a while back about people using the EULA clause that required OEMs to refund the money if the user didn't agree to the EULA, the Dell refund was for $53. This would indicate that Dell has a fairly good deal with Microsoft to get Windows at a reduced price (This itself might be a reason for not shipping Linux, as MS could start charging full price again as a retaliation).

    The other thing is that Dell can ship with spyware, adware, AOL, Yahoo! toolbar, etc... to get a price reduction, unless they can do the same for Linux, they might actually be loosing money by not shipping Windows depending on how much these packages pay Dell. Although if they pay via usage rather than the number of shipped installs then offering systems without an OS might not matter so much because the systems would probally be getting wiped anyway but if they ship Linux installs then there Windows sales would probably go down with people trying to save money.
  • For the record, I'm a linux user slightly tainted with a mac laptop. I've been using various distros over the years as desktops and servers. I like linux a lot and I think it is more usable for real work than either windows (ME is my last experience though) or OS X. That said, the summary author (or article author) has a strong point about man pages. They are often very difficult to understand and almost always devoid of examples. The little syntax structure at the top isn't going to help a complete newb and even after 5 or 6 years of linux use, I prefer to find a "howto" than read a man page any day. Anyway, the man page criticism is quite valid.
  • Acer from Walmart (Score:5, Informative)

    by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @12:01AM (#18312434) Homepage Journal
    Several months ago I bought a cheap laptop from Walmart. I found out from Acer's website they had a Linux cd distribution that I could download. What did this mean to me? Everything worked together, including wireless, sound, and accelerated video. Trying a different distribution, like Ubuntu worked without any hassles. Since then, I bought several other laptops from Walmart knowing they took time to make sure their laptops supported a free operating system. They have been the most trouble free units I have had the pleasure of giving my family. Its a shame Dell doesn't latch onto this idea.
  • by Canordis ( 826884 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @12:28AM (#18312608)
    None of those things are the domain of "grandma" though. I agree that Xorg is sorely lacking in user-friendliness, though.
  • Re:Good point (Score:3, Informative)

    by Technician ( 215283 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @12:33AM (#18312630)
    He brings up a good point with the difficulties of providing tech support.

    He ignores the issue that Linux has been much more stable and problem free than Windows. I have been able as a novice to fix a couple items myself on linux such as losing the administrator privilages in Ubuntu. Fixed it with a Hosts file edit. The answer was found on Google. All my hardware works "out of the box" except a couple Windows only items such as the Dell all in one printer and a HP flatbed scanner.

    On the other hand things are broken beyond my ability in the Dell desktop of my wife. A prime example is we had a software photocopier installed. It would use the flatbed scanner and print to the default printer. One day I needed to shrink a photo for posting online (100K size limit). I fired up the included photo editor for the very first time and found it was not a full program but a limited function 30 day trial which already expired. This trialware hijacked my flatbed scanner. Opening the photocopier now launches the photo editor preventing the photocopier from getting the scan. It also killed the fax for the same reason. It has been broken over a year now and I still have no idea how to fix it. I have removed the offending program. Now a scan simply brings up a nag screen that Windows can't find the photo editor. Would you like help finding the exe file? Other than needing to re-image the hard drive and losing all my settings, I have not found a fix in a year.

    As a fix, I moved the scanner to the Ubuntu box. The photo editor just works. (yea gimp!) So does the photocopier. (Yea sane!)

    As a novice Linux user, I have had far fewer unresolved problems on Linux. All my hardware worked out of the box without needing the manufacture's driver disk. This includes my HP printers attached to my LAN on Hawking printservers, my flatbed scanner (Cannon.. The HP didn't work) and my internal flash card reader.

    I had a meeting where the guest speaker brought a Power Point presentation. My Windows machine with Office 2000 did not display the presentation properly. The text box appeared all at once instead of bullet by bullet. Switched to the Linux partition and Open Office presented it properly. Later I found the free Power Point viewer from the MS site.

    In a nutshell, it takes a lot of money to keep up to date with MS products. (XP or Vista and the new version of Office + updated memory to run it cost about the same as a nice laptop.) Ubuntu makes a nice alternative that works better than older MS products.

    As a novice Linux user I have found Ubuntu easier to maintain than Windows. I have used Windows since Version 3.1. I have used Ubuntu since 9 months ago. I have added Flash 7 then 9, added MP3 support, am able to burn ISO CD's without buying an upgrade or searching for an alternative.. The list goes on..
  • by arth1 ( 260657 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @12:58AM (#18312746) Homepage Journal
    I'm a Unix/Linux guy myself, but I have to say that you miss the target entirely here if you think that daylight savings time patching is easier on Linux than on Windows.

    On Windows, patches came with the standard Tuesday updates, and all I had to do was accept installation. Ok, for boxes without outbound internet access, I actually had to copy the patches and install them manually, but that was pointy-clicky-done, with no hassle whatsoever.

    On my Linux boxes, I had to install (which for my Gentoo boxes means recompile) a new version of the timezone-data package (Arthur Olson time zones), then manually copy /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/New_York to /etc/localtime, then also manually copy a zoneinfo file to etc/localtime in the chroot jails for both named and dhcpd, and restart these daemons, as well as ntpd (time server).
    Then I had to repeat the whole procedure again, because a new version of timezone-data came out, because of bugs in the first one. Then I had to repeat the whole procedure YET again a third time cause the bugfix release wasn't complete. All in 2007.

    Then, on Sun boxes, I had to, in addition to a system update, also install a java runtime environment update, because of course java can't use the same timezone data as the system, but has to have its own embedded implementation. And with more than one jre per system, that meant one update per jre instance.

    I still prefer Linux and Unix, but it's not easier, and I bet many people forgot to update the zoneinfo files manually for chrooted daemons. Hopefully, most of them will only see odd logging timestamps. (Which in itself can be bad enough, if RIAA asks who used a DHCP IP address at a certain time between now and when the "old" DST kicked in.)

    Regards,
    --
    *Art
  • Re:Good point (Score:3, Informative)

    by Technician ( 215283 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @01:05AM (#18312782)
    The last 2 words of that sentence just drove off 2/3 of Dell's customers. If you need to go to the command line or directly edit ANYTHING in order to fix anything but the most exotic problems, then the software in question is not ready for the mass market.


    So how do you explain all the pre-GUI stuff such as DOS? That seemed to do quite will in the mass market.

    More important is trying to find proper documentation on the beast called the Windows Registery. I would rather fix a hosts file than try to fix the above problem with my scanner by editing the registery. This brings the question, just how many Windows have random glitches, blue screens, random crashes and such that users can't fix?

    There is a diferance between being able to find and use a fix and simply leaving it broken until the next hard drive reformat.

    Re-formating should not have to be the single most common Windows fix.
  • by odaiba_kamome ( 1074534 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @01:18AM (#18312870)
    This chimes with what someone connected to the Japanese government told me, off the record, a few weeks ago. Japanese PC vendors have a clause in their contracts with Microsoft that prevents them from selling PCs without Windows pre-installed. If they violate the contract they have to pay MS a whole lot more for each copy of Windows. My informant told me the contracts are secret, so I have no way of verifying this.
  • Re:Acer from Walmart (Score:4, Informative)

    by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @01:36AM (#18312951) Homepage Journal
    The first pulldown box under system software, "Linux Software" is listed before "Windows Software" :)

    http://global.acer.com/support/download.htm [acer.com]
  • by LingNoi ( 1066278 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @03:20AM (#18313365)
    When you upgrade you don't have to edit any configuration files, you only have to edit them once to get it working for your machine.

    If Linux came pre-installed (which it already does. Just not by dell) then the idea is that the configuration files would already be set for your system by the manufacturer so you would not have to edit .conf files as you mention.

    Everything would be setup to go for that specific machine out the box. You could even have a disk which reinstalls the operating system still with everything ready to go specific for that machine.
  • by Leto-II ( 1509 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @03:36AM (#18313429)
    Actually, FreeDOS doesn't come preinstalled. It comes on a CD and there is a paper that says, in a big bold font, the system can't boot until you install an operating system. This paper also says that Dell is giving you FreeDOS without any form of support whatsoever.
  • by gjuk ( 940514 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @05:43AM (#18313917)
    It matters because soon as a major PC manufacturer starts shipping machines without the Windows tax, we can finally get some real competition in the OS world (how ironic that if I want to try free Linux, I usually have to buy Windows - which comes with my PC - and I can't get a discount if I don't want Windows).
    Basically - Dell don't offer it because - and I have to be careful here- Dell get a volume discount on the Windows licenses they preinstall. If they start to offer Linux, they'll fall into a lower discount level on Windows and suddenly be uncompetitive in the crucial Windows market.
    My experience (in a slightly different sector) of such deals is that they always coincidentally have break points remarkably close to what happens when the reseller starts dealing with a competitor of the dominant vendor. Of course, MS cannot charge Dell more for Windows just because Dell happens to ship some Linux machines, but it can double the price of Windows if Dell falls below a certain sale volume - which they can vary any time they like.
    The solution? Manufacturers could [be forced to] [by France?] publish the embedded cost of software which ships with each machine so MS shenanigans could be spotted, but I'm sure plenty of fellow readers will point out the impracticality of that. The alternative is whistle blowers...
  • by nahdude812 ( 88157 ) * on Monday March 12, 2007 @07:17AM (#18314395) Homepage
    It's not exactly in your face as far as visibility, but you can avoid editing xorg.conf at all in Ubuntu by going into Synaptic Package Manager and choosing to configure Xserver-Xorg. It will walk you through a wizard and let you choose several paths based on how advanced you want to get. You can get down to authoring mode lines in it if you want to get that incredibly technical. But you can also easily specify which resolutions and color depths your monitor is capable of if it doesn't detect them automatically.

    If you're stuck at a command line and can't run Synaptic, then you can also accomplish the same task with an ncurses (text-mode gui) based interface to the same wizard with:
    dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
  • by Alex Belits ( 437 ) * on Monday March 12, 2007 @08:01AM (#18314563) Homepage

    7. Screen goes into power saving mode
    8. Press ctrl-alt-backspace to kill X (you knew how to do that already, right?)
    9. Pull out your *other* computer (you have one of those, right?) and google for help. Ignore all helpful suggestions to "RTFM n00b".


    I call bullshit.

    1. In no possible situation a graphics card can go into a power-saving mode when you run a wrong driver. You need some ancient ISA graphics card to even make it possible for the wrong driver to TRY to access it -- otherwise PCI IDs won't match, and X will exit with failure.

    2. If X server is running on any modern Linux distro, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace will merely restart it -- it's started from display manager. If X server failed multiple times, display manager gives you an error in text dialog box, and stops trying. You will see a text login prompt.

    3. If X server does not fail, switch to console is Ctrl-Alt-F1.

    4. You can always change display driver to "vesa" and use your graphics card in compatibility mode. As opposed to Windows it won't drop you into 640x480, either.

    And since only a moron or Windows shill wouldn't know that, I recommend you to shut up.
  • by TechForensics ( 944258 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @08:13AM (#18314637) Homepage Journal
    There is always a Windows tax, even on Linux PCs. M$ even used to charge PC manufacturers for Windows based on the number of PCs they SHIPPED, because "all of them would be running Windows eventually". Just try and find a Linux PC cheaper than a Windows PC with the same hardware specs.
  • by Toby_Tyke ( 797359 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @09:37AM (#18315495) Journal
    I've been using windows since '95. I have never, ever, had to edit the registry. Additionally, I can only think of one consumer device for which I was unable to locate drivers, which was a particularly old graphics tablet a friend of mine found in his loft a few years back.

    By comparison , I've been using Linux since '99. I have edited more config files than I could hope to count. I had to edit config files on three occasions while setting up the PC I'm typing this on. In addition, I have three consumer devices on this desk that I have been unable to locate drivers for. Actually, one of them I have found drivers for, it just refuses to work, and I gave up trying to figure out why.
  • by MightyYar ( 622222 ) on Monday March 12, 2007 @11:16AM (#18316845)
    Let's take your examples. From the Linspire site:
    • Linspire Balance notebook - not available when you click on the link, and a crappy Via 1GHz laptop with a whole 1.5 hours of battery time.
    • LinuxCertified Laptop - if this beast is still available, you get a $1400 P4 notebook from a vendor that hasn't updated the prices on their site since 2004.
    • Sub300 laptop - to call this obsolete would be an understatement. Another Via 1GHz machine, this one for over $800! You could get the crappiest Dell or even an old G4 iBook and out-perform this thing. Yes, it is light - as it should be since it has no optical drive.
    • "UK-based Tiny Computers offers Linspire Desktops" - yeah, until you click on the dead link! I went to their home page and could not find a Linux computer.
    • "The popular Walmart.com Linspire desktop!" - another dead link. However, you can search for Linspire at walmart.com and get a single match for a $348 Sempron 2.0GHz system. Out of 28 systems, that's it, and it's "online only". Bare system, no monitor.
    • "Powerful Northgate L-series sold at Staples.com. Just $499!" - bad link, and a search on Staples.com for "Linux" or "Linspire" comes up dry.
    • The IBM link is interesting, until you actually click on these VERY expensive systems to configure them and find out that they are the same price whether or not you order Windows.
    • The Dell link is even more interesting, as the same systems configured with Windows are actually CHEAPER!
    • The HP link, like the IBM link, points to workstations/servers in the rather expensive department. In any case, trying to click on the links to buy them gave me a network timeout.

    This isn't about demand or ideology. This is about shady business practices that, as a practical matter, guarantee that most people won't buy a pre-built PC without paying Microsoft. Do you really think that someone with a Windows2000 install disk from their last PC wouldn't have been perfectly happy to use that on their new PC if the new PC were $100 cheaper? This isn't demand for Windows - hang out in a Best Buy for a while and listen to what gets asked of the computer salesmen - people don't even know that Macs don't come with Windows. My wife can't even tell you when she is on a Windows vs. a Macintosh computer. I just helped a friend set up his Vista notebook, and he doesn't understand that it is not XP (though he does now after buying some incompatible peripherals and software).

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