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Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs 258

Posted by Zonk
from the trolling-for-talent dept.
polar_bear` writes "A lot of developers are angry at Novell for its deal with Microsoft, but is it fair game for other vendors to try to capitalize on dissatisfaction with Novell? Apparently, Mark Shuttleworth thinks so. Shuttleworth sent an invitation to the openSUSE developers list inviting developers 'concerned about the long term consequences' of Novell's deal to participate in Ubuntu Open Week and consider jumping ship to Ubuntu. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu developers are not amused."
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Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs

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  • Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)

    by person132 (986809) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:43PM (#16989260)
    The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice. If developers are really unhappy with the alliance, they will jump ship themselves.
    • Re:Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)

      by bogaboga (793279) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:49PM (#16989294)
      Maybe he was insinuating the fact that he (Mark), does not have developers as good as those at Novell. Frankly, I find Canonical's latest Kubuntu release rather wanting and disappointing.

      Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.

    • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)

      by FateStayNight (1000465) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:51PM (#16989310) Journal
      inviting people over is an act of courtesy though. It not like he threatened them or made false statements about Novell's future.
      • Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Interesting)

        by elysiuan (762931) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:56AM (#16989654) Homepage
        It was a timing and tone issue. And the post to the opensuse dev list was just uncalled for, his widely syndicated blog would've been sufficient. He could have done all the same things, the same Open Ubuntu summit, and explain Canonical/Ubuntu's position on patents as the catalyst without taking this to such a personal level. Shuttleworth has done a lot of good, and he's an intelligent guy. I don't think he should be burned in effigy for this, but it was a bad call.
    • Nu-uh (Score:5, Insightful)

      by msaver (907214) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:55PM (#16989334)
      Certainly, some developers are not at all pleased with the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Mark is just letting them know they're welcome :P

      Anyway, I don't see why this is 'un-Linuxy'. Competition helps OSS thrive, and if you can convince developers to work on your project, why wouldn't you?
      • Re:Nu-uh (Score:3, Interesting)

        by krmt (91422) <therefrmhere@nOsPam.yahoo.com> on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:45AM (#16989590) Homepage
        Because we're all on the same team. Poaching people from other projects simply isn't done not only because their work will benefit you even if they're working elsewhere, but also because it shows a lack of faith and friendship with other projects who depend on those people. What Mark did was very tacky, and anyone who doesn't recognize why probably isn't involved in any substantial way on a large free software project.
      • Re:Nu-uh (Score:2, Troll)

        by houstonbofh (602064) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:11AM (#16989728)
        Posted on the Ubuntu servers it would be fine. But going into someone elses business and poaching employees is just not right. And in OSS the mailing lists are the "offices" of the distribution.
        • Re:Nu-uh (Score:5, Interesting)

          by jd (1658) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [kapimi]> on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:46AM (#16990264) Homepage Journal
          Open Source, by its very nature, has no "employee/employer" structure. Anyone can contribute, employees of Novell are merely contributing during office hours, and those who are developers for OpenSuSE but not on Novell's payroll are merely developers of choice.


          The Free Software Foundation has a whole bunch about the whole rewards mentality, but it really boils down to this: If a developer for OpenSuSE is obligated, then they cannot do their best work and will likely be far more counterproductive. This is because obligation to a "leader" (whatever the form of business, whether OSS or not) is feudal in nature and feudal systems emphasize pleasing the leader of the moment, rather than doing what needs to get done. The only way to do what needs to get done is to eliminate all feudal and monarchistic elements from the project.


          (The Linux kernel is not an exception, because most of the modules that Linus ends up approving or disapproving have existed for some time and have an established track record. They were not developed to be pleasing to him, they were developed because it needed to get done. Those projects Linus turns down from the vanilla kernel often lead perfectly happy lives and are routinely patched in by assorted distros anyway.)


          So the head of Ubuntu is trying to "poach" developers whose code SuSE will likely end up using anyway, as opposed to them being at SuSE and Ubuntu using the code if released. Big wah. It really doesn't impact SuSE, since they can still use the code developed. If it's not the code SuSE wanted done but nobody else thinks that SuSE's idea was worth coding for, then perhaps it was no big loss. If the idea was good, then the developers will develop it anyway. The only loser in this is whoever picks a scoring system that makes them lose.


          Would I like it if people poached coders from my Open Source projects? Actually, yes. The SOBs rarely contribute anything as it is. I'd far prefer it if those who aren't interested left and those who were interested joined. It would make life much easier and progress much swifter.


          Would I have always felt like that? Well, no, but the meds help a lot. :)

    • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:55PM (#16989338)
      The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice.
      And a choice is exactly what he offered.
       
      • Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)

        by bcat24 (914105) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:50AM (#16989878) Homepage Journal
        Umm, that may be, but the OpenSUSE mailing list is not the place to make that offer. Posting it on his blog is cool. Posting it on another project's developer mailing list is trolling.
        • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Daniel Phillips (238627) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @02:45AM (#16990062)
          Posting it on another project's developer mailing list is trolling.

          Oh, like when Linus posted about Linux on the Minix list?

          • Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)

            by BobPaul (710574) * on Sunday November 26, 2006 @06:59AM (#16990754) Journal
            No, because Minix was the next closest thing to Linux, and I believe what he used as his development platform before he was done enough to actually run the Linux kernel.

            Posting about Linux on the Minix list is more akin to posting about Kubuntu or Xubuntu on the Ubuntu lists, or about Ubuntu on the Debian lists , or about Mandrake on the Red Hat lists (when the projects were first started, that is). When derivatives start there's always going to be an announcement on the origional list or no one will know about the derivative.

            Ubuntu, however, is not even remotely an offshoot of OpenSuse. Ubuntu also already has a thriving community and the OpenSuse developers already know about it. They know their options, there's no real need to advertise.
        • by fimbulvetr (598306) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @04:35AM (#16990404)
          Please, elaborate on why this is such a bad thing.
          • Re:Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)

            by BobPaul (710574) * on Sunday November 26, 2006 @07:03AM (#16990764) Journal
            Please, elaborate on why this is such a bad thing.
            Because it has nothing to do with the development of OpenSuse. The developers list is like OpenSuse's office. You don't go into GM headquarters and hang flyers asking engineers to work for Toyota, that's just not cool.

            If someone made project related to OpenSuse, or maybe a fork and said, "Hey, look what I'm starting, help me out if you want" cool. If someone says "Hey, look at these project that's existed for 3 years and has a thriving community, why don't you help us instead" that leaves a bitter taste. It's all about context.
    • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:17AM (#16989482) Homepage

      Um, what? Who made you the authority on what OSS is "about"?

      Also you contradict yourself. You say "OSS is about choice". News flash: Jumping ship is about choice. Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.

      Also, OSS is very much about attracting developers. Projects without developers don't go anywhere. Projects that have developers do, almost without regard to technical merit (cf. PHP)

      • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Interesting)

        by jlarocco (851450) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:54AM (#16989638) Homepage
        Also you contradict yourself. You say "OSS is about choice". News flash: Jumping ship is about choice. Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.

        So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?

        Whatever OSS is about, Shuttleworth comes off as condescending. The openSUSE developers aren't idiots. If they're unhappy with Novell, they don't need to be reminded of their options.

        Also, OSS is very much about attracting developers. Projects without developers don't go anywhere. Projects that have developers do, almost without regard to technical merit (cf. PHP)

        Newsflash: Ubuntu is currently one of the most popular Linux distros around. They're not exactly hurting for developers. Certainly not enough to necessitate stealing developers from other distros.

        With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs.

        • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)

          by kz45 (175825) <kz45@blob.com> on Sunday November 26, 2006 @02:30AM (#16989994)
          "So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?"

          Not stupid, just ignorant of other options. As long as he wasn't an asshole about it, I see it as fair.

          It seems to me that many of the complaints here are due to fear. You are afraid people will actually take him up on the offer.

          "With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs."

          What you don't realize is that this is the only way a linux distribution has a chance at competing with Windows. Shuttleworth is a (smart) businessman and knows this as well.
          • Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)

            by jlarocco (851450) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @04:14AM (#16990342) Homepage
            What you don't realize is that this is the only way a linux distribution has a chance at competing with Windows. Shuttleworth is a (smart) businessman and knows this as well.

            No, I realize that completely. Regardless, distributing binary drivers is in a grey area concerning GPL compliance. Which was my point originally. Shuttleworth/Ubuntu doesn't necessarily have the moral high ground when it comes to GPL adherence.

        • Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Grey Ninja (739021) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:45AM (#16990262) Homepage Journal
          I am a Linux person. Not a developer, but a Linux user for years, and I am fairly technically competent. (I am a video game programmer, and have a BSc if that means anything). I had no idea that Ubuntu was offering new developer sessions in the near future. Which was basically what Mark said. It didn't come off as condescending at all.

          I read it as "Hi. If you are unhappy with Novell right now, I would like to extend an offer to join the Ubuntu project, as we are having developer sessions soon, which might be up your alley."
        • by EsbenMoseHansen (731150) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @04:44AM (#16990420) Homepage
          So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?

          The suse devs might not have realized that there was an upcoming event targeted at new developers to Ubuntu, though.

        • by metamatic (202216) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @11:03AM (#16991598) Homepage Journal
          With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs.

          That's nothing, ubuntu-desktop also requires Mono. Shuttleworth really ought to get his own glass house in order before throwing stones.

    • by BigBuckHunter (722855) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @07:37AM (#16990848)
      The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy

      In order to be "Linuxy", you have to develop something, do a half-assed job, and then disappear completely (devfs, arts, xmms) leaving other devs to make sense of the mess you left behind. The Suse devs did nothing wrong, their management did. Suse is actually a pretty nice distro, but will likely disappear now due to Novel's carelessness. It's pretty depressing actually. It's kinda like how Novel made WP disappear.

      BBH
  • by feranick (858651) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:47PM (#16989282)
    Why not targeting many Microsoft developers instead? That would help everybody in the FOSS community.
    • by cheros (223479) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:00AM (#16989362)
      Would you really like to invite MS to sue the crap out of every ex MS developer claiming code taint?

      No? Didn't think so either. :-)
    • by kaiwai (765866) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:23AM (#16989776)
      I've spent a good weekend of my life trying to get the wireless working with Fedora Core 6, along with Ubuntu; you're really going to attract developers with the half assed, half baked crap that seems to being pushed out by the opensource developers? get the damn product working properly, then maybe those "Microsoft developers" will view Linux as a viable platform to develop on, rather than some operating system for those who wish to waste a whole weekend on trying to get the damn parts working properly.

      As for Shuttleworth, its about bloody time he piped down from his grand standing and actually got his damn distribution working correctly out of the box rather than jumping on every Microsoft and competitior bashing bandwagon that goes past his doorway, and instead, actually correct the deficiencies in his distribution; like the lack of WPA configuration and setup - no wpa-gui sucks, its broken and doesn't work.

      The day I can dump a ditribution on his oh-so-generic laptop (Toshiba A100) and everything works out of the box, without distorted sound, constant wireless network dropping - then Linux will have made a success on the desktop, until then, it'll be relegated to the server and the desktops of those with way too much time on their hands.

      Yeah, I'll get marked down, and a jihad declared on my ass because I *dare* question the almighty penguin agenda, but for christ sake, part of being an adult is accepting praise as well as acknowledging deficiencies and correcting them as they arrise - something which the Linux/OpenSource community is no very good at.
    • by fimbulvetr (598306) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @04:41AM (#16990410)
      Have you ever considered the advice "Never fight a landwar in asia"?
    • by Lumpy (12016) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @10:17AM (#16991364) Homepage
      Why not targeting many Microsoft developers instead? That would help everybody in the FOSS community.

      Most OSS projects and Distros are not written in VB.NET so the Microsoft devs will be of limited use.
  • New distro (Score:5, Funny)

    by thedarknite (1031380) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:50PM (#16989304) Homepage
    If any number of them were going to jump ship, wouldn't they just create a new distribution. They could recruit people from the Fedora team, Trustix Secure Linux, and Ubuntu.
    I'd call it STFU linux.


    --
    Sometimes people are as stupid as they look.
  • by toby (759) * on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:52PM (#16989314) Homepage Journal
    Did you really think there wouldn't be any?
  • by stox (131684) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:53PM (#16989326) Homepage
    I don't see an issue with this. Mark's note was well written, and simply mentions that there are alternatives. It was not malicious or derogatory. As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time? At least Mark is doing it out in the open, instead of using agents, ie. recruiters, to do it.
    • by iamnafets (828439) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:14AM (#16989462) Homepage
      I don't know if that necessarily is true. I'd much rather leave the back alley poaching "behind the scenes" so to speak. It's kind of like prostitution. You know it's happening, but a lot of times, you just don't want to have to look at it.
    • by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:41AM (#16989842)
      As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time?

      To me, it does not matter what someone else did/does. It doesn't make it right if it was wrong to begin with.

      But I don't see any problem in letting people who MAY be unhappy with the current situation know what your views on the subject are and that they may find employment with you if they believe that your views more closely match their's.

      Hell, we've had this discussion before. What if Microsoft managed a hostile take-over of Red Hat? Would you expect the coders to just accept that or would you expect them to take their knowledge and skills and move to a different distribution?

      And would anyone be upset then that Mark was offering employment to them? I would not.

      When the company you work with signs deals that you are opposed to (for whatever reason), then there is nothing wrong with someone else offering you a job.
    • by xenocide2 (231786) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:41AM (#16990244) Homepage
      It was kinda tacky to insinuate that they weren't dedicated to Free software any more, and such. If Mark felt there were individual developers dissatisfied with Novell's recent activities, it would have been smarter to target them personally rather than post on the openSUSE mailing list to promote Ubuntu.
  • No big deal (Score:2, Insightful)

    by NineNine (235196) on Saturday November 25, 2006 @11:54PM (#16989330)
    No big deal. I mean really, they're not trying to hire them. They're trying to convince these guys to work for them for free instead of the other guys. The "invitation" is an invitation to go to some classes so people can learn how to get accepted to work for free. I can't believe people do this.
    • Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)

      by digidave (259925) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:12AM (#16989442)
      A lot of people get paid for it. Many paid Linux developers start by contributing some of their free time, then they are hired by a commercial Linux company. Both Novell and Ubuntu pay many developers. I'm sure Mark is interested in volunteer programmers, but it's also quite possible that he'd hire programmers away from Novell. Don't you think if Miguel de Icaza decided he wanted out of Novell because of this that either Red Hat or Canonical would hire him in an instant?
    • Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)

      by Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:30AM (#16989540) Homepage
      I can't believe people do this.

      And yet it happens enough to cause projects like Linux, KDE, GNOME, OpenBSD, Apache, and so on, to get off the ground. Get used to it.

  • by div_2n (525075) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:01AM (#16989366)
    In previous posts, I've made it very clear how I firmly disapprove of Novell's selling of their soul.

    That being said, I see no problem with this. With the likelihood of developers on the project scratching their heads and wondering what they should do, he extended an invitation. It's up to them whether to accept. It isn't surprised that some on both sides would disapprove and feel threatened.

    I can see where some would think this is in bad taste, but letting them know they have a place to go if they want one is a good thing IMO.
  • by Bob54321 (911744) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:01AM (#16989370)
    I don't think that Mark was saying "Hey, come to Ubuntu, we need more developers" or "You should leave Novell now!". It appears to be more of "Hey, if you're leaving, our distribution has got big fast and there is always an opening for someone we know is good at what they do". Well at least it appears that way to me - just a statement made with good intentions that may have been interpreted by others in a different way. Happens all the time...
  • Well... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Godji (957148) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:07AM (#16989408) Homepage
    On one hand this post is blown out of proportion, probably just because it was written by Mark Shuttleworth. Whether he actually intended in his post to lure devs from openSuse to Ubuntu is hard to tell... If he had only posted "Hello", the fact that it's the openSuse list and the poster is the Big Man of Ubuntu would still make people believe he had an evil agenda, or whatnot.

    On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.

    And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.

    Mark, leave openSuse alone and do something about the binary driver issue. Please.
    • Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Handover Phist (932667) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:26AM (#16990178) Homepage
      the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.
      NVidia, the folks with the currently best closed binary driver, is considering releasing the source after seeing what market there is. Getting others to release a binary driver may open their eyes too by just introducing them to the market. Inclusion is good thing. Besides, releasing binary only is their choice.
    • Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by EsbenMoseHansen (731150) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @05:31AM (#16990558) Homepage
      On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.

      Now, I am not a Ubuntu dev, so I may be wrong ,but from my short research:

      1. This change was discussed publicly (the opposite rumour stemmed from a opensuse dev as far as I can tell)
      2. The change stems from the demand for AIGLX (if you assume that eye-candy is anything less than enormously important for many, many users, you are wrong.)
      3. The drivers will be offered among other choices, and only recommend in the cases where there is no way to do AIGLX without these drivers.

      I, for one, think they did the right thing. And the moment anyone produce a decent gfx card (say, can play A Tale in the desert and Savage 2), I will be moving to those gfx cards. Until then, I'm stuck with Nvidia or ATI.

    • by arevos (659374) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @09:36AM (#16991210) Homepage
      Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.

      Regardless, the community seems to be in favour [ubuntuforums.org], or at least in favour of giving users the choice at bootup.

      And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.

      The problem is twofold. Firstly, the Linux desktop is rather a niche product, and lacks the pressure that a more popular product would have. Secondly, it's probable that the NVidia drivers contain information which NVidia considers give it a competitive edge, and open source drivers may not be beneficial enough for NVidia to give up that edge.

      Frankly, I see nothing wrong with Ubuntu giving users a choice at bootup (which is my guess is what will happen), and Ubuntu has never been a 100% FOSS distro anyway.

  • by Espectr0 (577637) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:07AM (#16989410) Journal
    I am amazed that comments on his blog post are being deleted. I posted one around noon remembering him that ubuntu 6.10 uses novell software (gnome 2.16, which includes mono) and that he should be pushing novell to back out of the patent deal with microsoft instead of luring opensuse developers.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:44AM (#16990250)
      Well, I'm not suprised. He's clearly trying to keep a calm reasonable situation at the same time as the OpenSUSE people start madly over reacting and trying to cause trouble. The difference between a private blog and a public forum like slashdot is that he is responsible for the posts that he leaves up there. If he thinks that further debate of the patents will cause further problems then he probably should delete the comment.

      If you're trying to communicate with him directly, then the right method is email. If you're trying to make a personal public message then the right forum is your own blog (or something like slashdot.)
    • by Ben Hutchings (4651) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @10:32AM (#16991422) Homepage
      I think you're being confused by the moderation system, as I was when I first posted to his blog. When you post, your comment is shown to you as confirmation, but it won't be shown again until it has passed moderation. Look back in a day and it will probably be visible.
  • Response (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fabioaquotte (902367) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:07AM (#16989412) Homepage
    Someone sent an amusing response to the ubuntu mailing list:
    https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/200 6-November/022578.html [ubuntu.com]
  • by invisik (227250) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:10AM (#16989430) Homepage
    Is there no wait and see how this turns out, or at first sign of a problem are people really bailing? Sure there's commercial interests vs non-commercial which make the initiatives and reactions different, but come on.

    Maybe join one of the independent projects that support all distros if you really disagree....?

    -m

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:20AM (#16989500)
    The best part; OpenSuse's satirical response [ubuntu.com] _____________ Kubuntu Edgy User
  • by cyberjessy (444290) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:37AM (#16989564) Homepage
    To be successful, one thing you need is the 'Freedom to make mistakes'.

    Perhaps Novell made one, perhaps it did not; it depends on your perspective. But should that one action cause such wide-spread criticism, and calls to abandon the distro and the developers who worked behind it? Even while I have no comment on whether the Novell-MS deal was appropriate, I feel such a reaction is very sad. Is Open Source so fragile?? A fully commercial vendor meanwhile can make its mistakes, learn from it, correct it, move on.

    For all the work the guys at Novell have put in (Gnome, Mono, ....) this certainly is silly.

    I have been a SUSE user for many years now, and _personally_ I find it the best. I have never really contributed to openSUSE, now I am thinking about how I can help the team in any small way I can.
  • by mikesd81 (518581) <mikesd1.verizon@net> on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:38AM (#16989570) Homepage
    Is he calling the developers to come because of the ethics of the deal OR selfishness reasons that they need developers?
  • by lotusleaf (928941) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @12:59AM (#16989666) Homepage
    Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

    If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

    I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

    Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

    "Corel Sells Out To Microsoft" [forbes.com]

    "Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" [cnn.com] @ CNN 10/16/2000

    "Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal" [washingtonpost.com]

    "Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source [washingtonpost.com]

    "Microsoft Litigation" [groklaw.net] List - Educate yourself

    I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

    Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

    For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

    "Gates on Vista, Linux and more" [com.com]

    History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this. And yes, I know about Xandros, my point is about where Corel Linux was headed.
  • by bunions (970377) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:08AM (#16989712)
    Stuff like what Mark did is simply not done.

    his emphasis

    Ok, there's two, warring stereotypes here. First:

    Did anyone else picture that being posted by Sir Fauntleroy Etherbottom III directly after his monocle flew right off into the crumpets?

    "I dare say, this Shuttleworth fellow is the worst kind of bounder. This sort of thing is just not done!"

    Second:
    "Stuff like what Mark did"

    Ok, Cletus, simmer down! Y'know cousin Mark ain't been right lately, not since his ol' smell hound done up and runned off.

  • by dr_strang (32799) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @01:33AM (#16989822)
    ... is EXACTLY what would benefit Microsoft the most. Sowing the seeds of paranoia and distrust WITHIN your enemy's community is a classic tactic.

  • by BroadbandBradley (237267) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @02:10AM (#16989946) Homepage
    how's he hurting anything? not like he's poking fun at them for being in bed with the enemy.

    really, I mean people love to get worked up over the littlest things, how dare he suggest that I co-operate with someone else!!!!!

  • Seems to me... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Eric Damron (553630) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @02:11AM (#16989950)
    Mark said something a little brassy that needed to be said.

    Each of us must decide if the Novell/Microsoft deal changed the way we fundamentally view Novell and Suse. That is even more true of anyone developing a platform that is a part of this deal.
    • by houghi (78078) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @09:04AM (#16991122)
      Mark said something a little brassy that needed to be said.


      What? That other projects welcome developers? Do you realy think that there were openSUSE developers that said to themselves: "Gee, I would like to leave as an openSUSE developer, but where should I go?" Do you realy think that there are deveopers who think that openSUSE is the only project in history that wold want their skills?
  • by postmortem (906676) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @03:36AM (#16990216) Journal
    ..of SuSE. SuSE looks good, mature, polished, professional, industrial, etc. It is not secret that SuSE always looked darn good. Unlike some other distros. Strongly IMO the GNOME themes that come with SuSE are very polished and not lacking in any department, an evidence of professional work.

    Remember when Mr. Shuttleworth was calling for developers to improve the looks of Ubuntu? Well this is the same call. Let's get them when they are pissed. They got evident skills.
  • by Tim C (15259) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @08:31AM (#16991036)
    Why would it not be? For that matter, why would it not be okay to post a single, polite message along the lines of "Hey, we're doing great things over here and have openings if anyone's interested" even if the deal hadn't been made?

    Spamming the list with repeated messages would be wrong, as would making threats, lying, etc. I don't see how a single, polite invitation to switch groups would be wrong at almost any time, though.
  • by nurb432 (527695) on Sunday November 26, 2006 @09:19AM (#16991166) Homepage Journal
    Who knows waht the ex-novell people might bring with them that will serve to taint ubuntu. ( be it accidentally or intentionally )

    Id say the entire crew is now taboo for life. Sux to be them.

The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives. -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project

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