Torvalds Gets Tough on Kernel Contributors 246
ChocLinux writes "Linus Torvalds is cracking down on developers that add last-minute changes to the kernel during the two-week merge window. He says: 'If people miss the merge window or start abusing it with hurried last-minute things that just cause problems for -rc1, I'll just refuse to merge, and laugh in their faces derisively when they whine plaintively at me, and tell them there's going to be a new opening soon enough.'"
Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Good (Score:3, Informative)
Well, I guess he can't win huh? It's difficult being in his position. He wants the work to get done and he wants to make people happy. I guess him saying, "People always complain that I'm being too soft. Not so this time," is the result of all the grief he puts up with.
Just let it go as long as the patches still come in
Not exactly. (Score:2)
Not really; his goal is to release the best kernel possible. (I think he says "world domination", but that's what he means.) I've never seen Linus referred to as being a big squishy-bear when talking about his kernel management style.
Re:Good (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, but you cannot laugh in the face of people who voluntarily help for absolutely no money.
There is a line between managing someone and mocking him. Roughly 100% of the time, mockery leads to nothing productive. And mocking your people is not being "tougher", it's being an incompetent manager.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
This announcement is good management practice though.
The public declaration of harsh measures means people won't be so hurt by rejection of their MyLifesBlood patches to the kernel - it's not personal anymore, just policy:)
Much of Linux success can be attributed to Linus ability to balance personalities and technologies. And, believe me, there are some Piece of Work personalities that happen to be tied together in single person packages with rare intellects and feverish workaholicism. Many technical managers are doing great if they can just not too badly piss off the prima donnas responsible for the great ideas and the hard work.
Re:Good (Score:4, Interesting)
So, why the fuss about last-minute merges now? If they're still in the two-week window, they should be fine; if they're not, well, then they're too late and won't get merged, but that was already clear anyway. And stuff that's not up to par quality-wise yet will (should) not be merged at all, anyway - it's not as if the code quality requirements were lowered for the two-week merge window.
What Linus seems to be doing is to effectively reduce the two-week window to a "something-less-than-two-weeks" window where noone knows exactly how much the difference is, but it does not get rid of the underlying problem: there still is a deadline, and people will still submit lots of stuff just before the deadline's there. It doesn't matter whether it's two weeks or 13 days or whatever.
The whole *point* of the "merge for two weeks, then stop merging and focus on bug fixes" was to be able live with this, so to speak. If you can't fight them, make them join you; if you can't prevent people from submitting stuff in the last minute, make sure that there's enough time *after* the last minute so that last-minute merges won't hurt you. If Linus finds it necessary to crack down on last-minute merges now - which, as I said above, is not really possible in practice (the only way to do it would be to not merge anything at all anymore, but that's obviously not a practical solution) - because there are too many, that just shows that patch pressure is too high already; further increasing it won't help. Rather, you have to look at *why* patch pressure is so high, and do something about that. For example, why not extend the two-week window to three or four weeks? It might mean that new kernel versions appear less often, but in these days of git and distributed development where tree changes are so easy to push/pull and where every distributor uses their own, heavily-patched version of the kernel, anyway, why does it matter so much? Linus has always taken a stance that quality is more important than meeting arbitrary deadlines, I think.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what he actually wanted to say - I did RTFA, but zdnet is not exactly what I'd call a high-quality source for kernel development news. Caveat lector...
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
branches? (Score:2)
Re:branches? (Score:2)
Re:Good (Score:2)
(Of course, they will complain anyway, people being what they are, but their audience will know that they were warned ahead of time.)
Re:Good (Score:2, Funny)
Linus has learned this difference. Apparently you haven't.
That's not the way it works in the business world. Every alpha male that has acted the way you suggest in the business world eventually ends up with t
Re:Good (Score:2)
You have no idea.
Michael Jordan's wife has him by the nuts. TO just got his ass spanked. Dennis Rodman does what? Manage street corners these days? Would you care to cite any examples of alpha males who were allowed to keep shooting their mouths off past the point when their immediate usefulness ended?
No.
Re:Good (Score:2)
And if you weren't black, 6'3" and 230 lbs, you'd be a punk, right?
I saw plenty of your fellows in the Federal prison system. When a C.O. told them what to do, they shut up.
I'm 5'8", weigh 200 pounds, am out of shape, wear glasses, and I'd still tell you to fuck yourself in the ass. In prison, I'd get my ass kicked, so I shut up. Out here, after you kick my ass, I'll show up at your house - six months later -with a
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
RTFA or not, you've apparently never been part of a large, ongoing software project that was any good. You DO NOT submit "new stuff" during the merge window! That's what the previous 50 weeks in the year were for.
Two weeks is a manageably aggressive timeframe during which to reconcile compatibility issues across a moderately large codebase. The acceptance of entirely new code during this window potentially starts the reconciliation process all over again at square one. Usually it would be less than that, but if you accept one new submission, you almost have to accept them all. So it could still become a never-ending process, indistinguishable from the preceeding development cycle which the merge window is supposed to define.
Therefore, if you're going to have a cutoff date at all, you've really got to be strict about it or the merge becomes a nightmare.
If you really do have something new and important which absolutely does need to get into the release, then the cutoff date would have been selected to accomodate your new code.
It's not as if there's no dialogue...
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
The first thing that came up is that Andrew Morton doesn't know which of the things in the testing tree are going in this cycle, because people haven't said anything in the middle of the window. So the first problem would be solved if everybody said at the beginning of the window that they're intending to submit something, but not quite yet.
The real issue, it turns out, is that James Bottomley (the SCSI maintainer) is in an untenable position. He's supposed to get patches from developers, integrate them, and submit them to Linus. But the developers waited for 2.6.14 to come out before they rebased their patches on it, and then took most of the window rebasing the patches, leaving James not enough time to determine for sure if all of these patches actually work correctly together before the window closes.
Furthermore, Linus would like to get infrastructure changes in before driver changes, so that it's easier to debug. It's hard to figure out what's wrong if you get both an infrastructure change that shouldn't affect anything in the driver, but might due to a bug and a driver change that should affect the driver behavior. It's a lot nicer if you can say whether the infrastructure change had any effect at all on what the driver does, and know right away which part to debug. But that depends on getting things included in a particular order.
I suspect that part of the problem is that the new release cycle is new, and contributors are not yet convinced that they can rebase their patches against 2.6.14-rc3 and have them apply cleanly to 2.6.14, and it will not be such an issue once people have gotten used to it.
Re:Good (Score:2)
Seriously, I think he could be a little more cordial, even in jest.
~X~
Re:Good (Score:3, Funny)
When I worked as a cook, we were responsible for cleaning the kitchen during the shift (the place never closed). We'd be carrying buckets of hot grease or water and people would be drawn to walking in front of you it seemed. So, we took up yelling a warning when we were about to carry out hot stuff:
"HOT STUFF...MAKE WAY OR I'LL BURN YOU AND LAUGH"
It worked perfectly. And for those who didn't beleive, they found out the hard
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Linus frequently expresses himself using a type of wry humour which is quite alien to US audiences. It's not bitchy, it just doesn't translate well.
Re:Good (Score:2, Funny)
remember this one???? hehehe ok, now someone thats not ac can post the same reference and take credit for the reference as usual....
Linux 2.0.36 patch - patch-2.0.36.gz (15-Nov-98)
From: Linus Torvalds
Subject: Linux-2.0.36..
Is out there.
Re:Good (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, he should act more like Steve Ballmer.
Re:Good (Score:2)
One enfant terrible is enough for the entire software industry.
Re:Good (Score:2)
when these types of quotes get posted on sites like ZDNet, this only contributes to the fact that people think Linux is poorly maintained and has a low software quality
That's an odd thought; it contributed to my impression that Linux is being well-maintained, since the position Linus is taking is the position that must be taken in order to maintain software well.
Re:Good (Score:2)
Who is "we"? George Bush?
Take your patriotic pompous tool ass back to the toilet and dump your shit where it belongs.
The poster was quite correct - most Americans have the sense of humor of a Puritan. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing Linus's comments at all.
Re:Good (Score:2)
Besides, if I ignore The Rules I *deserve* to be laughed at.
Re:Good (Score:4, Funny)
Also said... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Also said... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
It appears to be a reference to a really bad comic book [google.ca].
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Informative)
Get Tough! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Get Tough! (Score:2)
You must not be in corporate America. Bosses laugh at you derisively all the time.
Thank god I have the type of boss that, while practicing the above-mentioned behaviour, can take it as well as give it.
Obligatory Futurama (Score:5, Funny)
Bubblegum: You old man? Ha! Sweet Clive, laugh derisively at him.
Sweet Clive: Ahaha, ahaha, aahahaha.
Whaaa?!? (Score:5, Funny)
Not-So-Benevolent (But Exceedingly Pragmatic) Dictator for Life?
Re:Whaaa?!? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Whaaa?!? (Score:2)
But
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Steve Ballmer referred to him as an "amateur" and offered to tutor him in the art of anger.
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Indeed, being the chairman of a world-wide OS development team is not a trivial task!
Much ado about nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
Which means, if you don't like it, make your own damn kernel!
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
Except of course, that it's not. Linus seems to be getting pissed off that people are getting their work in *just before* the deadline, not actually missing it. If your manager told you off for submitting your work shortly before your deadline, you'd be pretty pissed off about it.
If the 2 week window is too long, then shorten it. But don
playing by the rules? or gaming the system? (Score:2)
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
the 'and laugh in their faces derisively' comment is just an indication that Linus thinks this is important. I don't know Linus, and I think I only know one person who ever might Linus, but I know from reading enough articles what his personality and sense of humor are like. Threatening to laugh derisively at someone is a little differ
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:2)
Re:Much ado about nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
Excuse me, but who is saying that it is bad in business? I flat out said that it goes on all the time. When I worked on HP-UX, we had about 5 of us who did not check in our work continually. When merges occured, it caused issues and managers would get pissed. And yes, they would sound off just like Linus did. I never felt that it was "bad", as they were justified.
In fact, where do you see anybody saying that a business doing it is bad? Your statement has the same lo
You call that tough? (Score:2, Funny)
Getting tough is more like "Do that once more and I'll have Don Papa and his mob minions knocking at your door with a fresh set of baseball clubs!" or something like that.
Re:You call that tough? (Score:2)
What are baseball clubs?
Re:You call that tough? (Score:2)
Re:You call that tough? (Score:2)
Grammar Nazi? Not on your life. I was more wondering if it was just an odd translation. Is this a common term?
More like this? (Score:5, Funny)
Linus: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee....
"Just for Fun" (Score:5, Funny)
Somewhere, there's got to be a "Deep Thought" by Jack Handy about Linus T.
"Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in the world is not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's a shark riding on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see." ~ Jack Handy
I laugh in your general direction (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really imagine Linus will start jumping on planes and seeking out kernel contributers to laugh in their faces. Bloody hell, I know geeks have trouble with anything not strictly literal but sheesh.
I read it as "Certain people are repeatedly making changes at the last minute and I'd really rather they didn't".
Re:I laugh in your general direction (Score:2)
Re:I laugh in your general direction (Score:2)
Who wouldn't want to?
-Adam
Re:I laugh in your general direction (Score:2)
He's absolutely right! (Score:5, Insightful)
And what happens if in that "another release" another guy makes ONE MORE last minute change and... well you get the idea.
I've seen this happen at sourceforge projects, and this is what gives Open Source such a bad reputation - buggy projects. Sure, 999 bugs have been fixed, but 10 major flaws are introduced with the next version. Just search any SF project's bugs for "crash" or "segfault", and you'll get the idea (and these are reports about RELEASES, not cvs). And why does this happen? Because of devs NOT RESPECTING the timings!
So, please guys, p-l-e-a-s-e, respect the timing! This is Linux we're talking about, not some hobby project.
Re:He's absolutely right! (Score:2)
Yup. I'm pretty sure that he is saying exactly that.
Fork it! (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe his phrasing was a bit harsh, but remember that he is not just a developer - he really plays the role of Project Manager here, and sometimes the PM has to send a wakeup call. That's what this sounds like. Not that big a deal.
Think about all the failed FOSS projects where nobody did this - UserLinux and Hurd spring to mind. (Now for some posts telling me that Hurd isn't a fai
Re:Fork it! (Score:2)
Re:Fork it! (Score:2)
Note I do not claim we will see the completion of a usable HURD OS in th
Re:Fork it! (Score:2)
Soon Linus' conversion will be complete (Score:2, Funny)
Linus Matures (Score:2)
The irony is killing me!!! (Score:3, Funny)
But, Linus has discovered the secret of actually making it happen! Just don't pay people in the first place! Genius!
This is why Linux is so successfull.
An observation (Score:2)
I had to chuckle when I read that. Even when Linus is trying to be cruel, he still comes off as charming and agreeable.
linus has my sympathy (Score:4, Insightful)
With a product as complex as a kernel you need lots of time to properly test and integrate stuff. A kernel release needs to be stable & reliable. Last minute changes with unkown impact are unacceptable unless they fix something that absolutely needs to be fixed.
The git scm tool that linus uses actually supports this development style very well. Developers develop and send in patches to a central repository. Linus pulls the important patches and patches his private repository for a few weeks and then locks it down for testing. That's why he can afford to tell developers to wait or adjust to his schedule.
In this respect he is quite ahead of the clearcase/cvs and svn using masses. These tools do not support this kind of development very well. The mental model of the developers is still that they need to get their stuff in the trunk asap. With git the model is get your patch out, have it tested, optimized and when it is mature and ready Linus will merge it when this fits his release schedule. For complicated changes this process should be slow or otherwise Linus ends up doing the work that should have been done before the merge.
This model is way better than freeze trunk, tell everybody to not do anything for a few months and then release.
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:5, Insightful)
by making a unqualified comment about linux kernel management and getting modded up for it...
Why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not? He was stating an opinion, nothing more.
Controlling a process and stating an opinion are two entirely different things.'
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Gaah. I don't tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with people getting together and making their own "insightful" comment on any random topic, whether they know anything about it or not.
Congratulations! We have a winner! The 3rd Annual Slashdot unintentional irony award goes to titwurstman!
He beat all comers this year due to his use of a quote suggesting that people on Slashdot comment on things they know nothing about, to support his Slashdot comment on something he knows nothing about!
The Slashdot editors have now permanently closed the competition, as it is widely agreed that nobody will ever top this year's winner!
Re: (Score:2)
And Let Me Be The First To Say... (Score:2)
Either that or your just too dim to understand what the parent was talking about. That would also explain how someone who claims to be in favor of strict, precise meanings of words would refer to himself as a "Nazi".
Re: (Score:2)
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:2)
Ironically, you appear not to know much about irony...
[There are several commonly used meanings; the one you objected to is if anything the "classic" definition of irony.]
Re: (Score:2)
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:5, Funny)
Well said, fellow slashdot user teewurstmann of id 755953! With that post, you certainly took Linus Torvalds to task for daring to belittle the collective intelligentsia that is SLASHDOT! As a mere senior kernel developer, founder of the Linux kernel project and leader of the mainline kernel development process certainly he needs to be shown his place by our community of insightful commentators. From mom's basement I stab at thee!
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:5, Informative)
And you "wisely" drop the following sentence from what your quoting.
Here's the quote in context:
>>>
Gaah. I don't tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the
whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with
people getting together and making their own "insightful" comment on any
random topic, whether they know anything about it or not.
[ And don't get me wrong - I follow slashdot too, exactly because it's fun
to see people argue. I'm not complaining
And I don't tend to worry about the Inquirer and the Register, because
both of them are all about being rough and saying things in ways that
might not be acceptable in other places, and that's what makes them fun to
read. So when they then write something nasty about Linux (or me), hey, it
goes with the territory.
So much for Linus complaining about slashdot.
You trolling Sucker.
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:2)
Your English is better than most American's English; however, in Engish one capitalizes language names.
You're welcome.
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:2)
(Sorry, couldn't resist. :-)
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:2)
[ And don't get me wrong - I follow slashdot too, exactly because it's fun
to see people argue. I'm not complaining
He says he's not complaining. Sounds like he's just making a characterization of how discussions go around here...not too far off the mark.
Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot.... (Score:2)
Re:Enough time? (Score:2, Insightful)
You don't have to make the code in two weeks, you just have to submit it within that time frame, or wait untill next if you are not ready yet. So you can for example start coding now, and post the code after 10 years, but inside the 2 week time frame (assuming this policy is still used then, and your code still works with the current kernel at that time).
Re:Enough time? (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway if you miss the window for kernel J.K.L there's always J.K.L+1 coming along. Meanwhile people with a burning desire for your patch can get it from you. It's annoying, but the person you should be annoyed with lives in your mirror.
Re:Enough time? (Score:2)
THERE'S A PERSON LIVING IN MY MIRROR!?!?!
Oh, shit... call the police... call Homeland Security... there's a person living in my mirror! I'm looking right at her right now! She looks terrified!
Re:Language? (Score:2)
Re:Language? (Score:2)
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
</pedant>
(For those tempted to take this post seriously: haven't you ever watched The Princess Bride?)
Re:If my boss (Score:2, Insightful)
If you were chucking code into a major public release candidate 2 weeks before launch, I'm sure your quitting window would be rather short as you would be fired before too long.
No one involved is a child; suck it up, do some push-ups if required, and make sure you do things right next time.
Well Said! (Score:2, Insightful)
" If my boss used this tone with me, I would quit the job."
Spoken like a true college Sophomore.
Ouch. (Score:2, Funny)
Those were the days - back when I knew everything and wouldn't take constructive critisism from anyone!
Re:If my boss (Score:2)
Re:If my boss (Score:2)
But if you do, better make sure that there is no chair within reach...
Oops, wrong OS!
Re:Let us not forget (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let us not forget (Score:3, Funny)
Go read some of Linus's LKML or Usenet posts. He is conversationally fluent in English. You would have no way to tell he is not from an English-speaking country if you didn't know beforehand.
You would if you heard him speak - he completely mis-pronounces the word "Linux", for example ;o)
Re:Let us not forget (Score:2)
Really? Most coders know this is standard operating procedure.
Re:Take lessons from Steve Balmer (Score:2, Funny)
I'm having a reconcilliation problem... (Score:2)
Re:I'm having a reconcilliation problem... (Score:2)
Re:Linus isn't the only one that's had to do this (Score:2)
I use Subversion for my own projects, but they aren't anywhere near the size of the Linux Kernel. Some of the largest projects I've ever seen