Windows Interoperability in A Linux Distro 355
Magenta writes "There is a review of the Desktop OS Version 3 Business Edition from Xandros. This operating system is meant to allow users to easily move from Windows XP to Linux without the problems that can arise. Xandros not only can use Window's file system but it is able to run a great number of Windows programs using its CrossOver Office tool from CodeWeavers. This is one of the most accessible distros to come along in awhile and it marks a big step forward in the progress on Linux on the desktop."
A must (Score:2, Insightful)
Omar
Not good for free software (Score:1, Insightful)
It only encourages people to keep on using proprietary and closed Windows software instead of extolling the virtues of free software.
30 Great Number (Score:5, Insightful)
CrossOver Office currently supports more than 30 of the most popular windows productivity applications
Well, that's quite an acheivement but 30 productivity apps isn't "a vast number of Windows programs".
This is infinitely dumb... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is a few hundred thousand people who will eventually run into application support issues, driver issues, printing issues etc that they won't be able to turn to friends for help with.
That is a few hundred thousand people who will tell their friends that they tried Linux and it sucked.
The Linux community needs to concentrate on driver support, end user support and encouraging developers to migrate native applications to the platform. Anything else is just inviting failure.
Re:Not good for free software (Score:2, Insightful)
It's OSS, it's Linux, it's familiar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the XP-style interface, but for some people it could ease the migration process. Let people become accustomed to the benefits of a stable kernel, a powerful software toolkit. If you have faith in the inherent quality of OSS this shouldn't scare you, surely?
Perhaps I'm an incurable optimist, but a journey of 1000 miles must begin with a single step.
Re:/shrug (Score:1, Insightful)
Jesus... (Score:4, Insightful)
So here we have a linux distro that according to the review is very easy to use and on top off that even offers the possibility to run many Windows programs out of the box.
Now what does the average slashbot have to say to that?
But I want to run my Windows(tm) games. As long as my Windows(tm) games don't work on linux, linux isn't for me.
Finally, as if this comment hadn't been dumb enough, he tells us that linux has to become more user-friendly in order to gain more market share, so that more games will be available for linux.
The funny thing is that just before that he told us that linux wouldn't gain any market share even with a userfriendly distribution (remember the review?) that runs many windows programs out of the box, because he couldn't play Everquest on it.
Needless to say that it only took seconds for the famed
Impressive...
Re:Just for fun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nor should it be free as in free beer. It includes proprietary (well, for-pay) software in the install... CrossOver Office.
Free Software is not free [puzzling.org], and it probably never will be until our core society changes dramatically at the community and economic level.
Power costs money, bandwidth for hosting the project cost money, domains cost money, developer time costs money, hardware and backups cost money, distribution cost money, and many other aspects of the Free Software-production machine cost money.
Re:Not good for free software (Score:5, Insightful)
However, allowing people to run unfree software on a free platform using Wine or Winex or Crossover Office or whatever is Evil and Wrong and encourages people to forever be trapped by Bill Gates.
How come you guys think that people can only migrate from the applications downwards, rather than from the OS-up?
I'd have thought once you got people to switch the Operating System, your job's mostly done, and getting them to switch applications would be relatively easy - people install and uninstall applications all the time, compared to their OS, after all....
Lacking GNOME is not a minus (Score:3, Insightful)
These distributions are much better off supporting only ONE desktop solution. The prime target of Xandros doesn't know what GNOME or KDE is, they just want to get their work done. Xandros chose KDE, which is not a bad choice, and did a good job integrating it.
Confusing the issue with two very different ways of using your computer is just not a good idea. It is better to completely integrate one solution.
This is also why Ubuntu should stick to one user interface with their official distribution, and leave KDE to the more unofficial Kubuntu.
For the more technical users / companies, there is always Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Slackware, Gentoo, Debian, etc.
WTF? (Score:3, Insightful)
So:
- Four-click install with automatic disk partitioning [SUSE's just about got it]
- Industry-leading hardware detection & configuration [SUSE's got it]
- A single control center for all your settings [SUSE and many distros have got it]
- Shield your files from prying eyes with automatic home folder encryption [ok, it's not automatic in SUSE or most distros, but do you really want your mom and dad to encrypt their files?]
- Acquire images through the USB scanner support [sounds like most distros]
- Support for new nVidia and ATI PCI-Express video cards [sounds like nVidia and ATI]
- Recursively change properties of files in selected sub-directories [Sounds like Konqueror]
- New! Synchronize your system clock with a network time server [Holy shit, computers do this...wow what a novel idea]
- Xandros File Manager [ie konqueror]
- Xandros Disc Burner [ie k3b]
- Full server-accessed Windows networking [ie samba]
- StarOffice 7 with full commercial support [too cool for open office]
- Special Xandros edition of CodeWeavers CrossOver Office 3.0.1 [don't see the major advantages over a well setup version of wine]
- Xandros Networks updates [sounds like most distros]
- Get notified of updates immediately with the Xandros Networks panel applet [sounds like many distros]
- Startup and Trouble-shooting Guide [weee!]
- 380 page User Guide (PDF with download version) [sounds like they cheaped out...SUSE still gives you two solid books in addition to the PDFs].
- Access to a huge inventory of free Linux software [ie the Internet]
- 90 days e-mail installation technical support [ie we don't want you to call and talk to us, oh yeah and screw you that you may have hosed your system when ntfsresize failed and now you can't get online]
The wrong direction (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows Filesystem (Score:3, Insightful)
I have never used Xandros, but are you implying installing linux on a Fat32 filesystem? Why would I want to use a filesystem that does not provide for permissions? If your just talking about mounting and accessing it, what distro doesn't? Every single dual boot system I have ever installed (Suse, Mandrake, RedHat, Fedora etc.) has detected and mounted the existing windows partition. My USB thumbrive mounts automatically in Fedora Core 4, it uses windows format. The only thing I really see different about Xandros is Codeweavers which I already have. I really don't see anything truly revolutionary here. Don't get me wrong I like linux but if you have seen one KDE/Gnome desktop you've seen them all. Every week a new screenshot gallery showing the same tired pictures of KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice etc makes it's rounds on all the linux sites. The only thing to me that has really made things easier recently is the move to Synaptic, APT, Yum, URPMI, Click & Run etc. But again they all do basically the same thing, some better than others but nothing earth shattering. What is so much better about Xandros that would make me want to dump PCLinuxOS? If your just trying to attract windows users, your going to have a hard time. Until Linux is pre-installed on Dell Desktops as a dual boot or cheaper option, your never going to get a windows user to switch.
Re:/shrug (Score:4, Insightful)
You've hit the problem right on the head! The users have come to expect (in the Windows world) that everything they buy that "fits" in their PC, will "work" in their PC, at the highest level of performance and optimization.
They've grown comfortable in their propritary softwareship. The problem here is that these same vendors are PROHIBITED (by contract in many cases) from opening up their APIs to non-Microsoft partners if they wish to continue to use the "Certified for Windows" stamp of approval on their hardware.
Do you go out to Sears, buy tires that "look like they'll fit", and then complain when you bring them home to find they don't fit on your Mini-Cooper? No, you find out what kind of hardware your Cooper takes, you bring those specs to Sears and you ask them which tires meet those specifications.
In Linux, since vendors refuse to support the hardware or software through proper drivers (ATI, NVidia, 3Com, etc.), you find out (via the Linux HCL) which hardware is supported by which vendors, and you support THOSE vendors with your wallet.
But I stand by my statements. None of this is a Linux problem. There is more than enough code, talent and time in the Free Software community to write perfected drivers for every single piece of hardware out there that fits in a computer (embedded, PC, workstation, server and mainframe). The problem is that the vendors don't provide docs or APIs, or the ones they DO provide are incorrect, false or just plain wrong.
Trust me, I've been on this side of the fence, working for a Linux company that 3Com approached to ask us to write drivers for their WinModem in Linux, because IBM insisted they "fix it" for their Thinkpad line of laptops (this was back in 2000/2001). 3Com assumed we could just write 100% compatible drivers in a WEEKEND and have a fully-debugged, functional equivalent of their Win32 WinModem driver shipped to them by Monday. No docs from them, no APIs, nothing more than a binary copy of their Win32 WinModem driver.
We insisted they give us docs or APIs or something, and what they gave us... and you'll love this (I still have a copy in my email archives), was a slightly-blurry digital picture of a whiteboard, where their engineers described how they "thought" the Linux version of their WinModem driver would work.
Needless to say, we laughed at them and told them to find someone else. They never did.
So the problem is NEVER on the Linux side when it comes to hardware not functioning properly.
Nothing to wait for (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason we don't have supported 3rd party drivers is because Linux doesn't have the market share (yet) to warrant the OEMs supporting us.
The more people use Linux the more support we'll get.
Or, we could all just sit around "concentrating" on better driver support and user support.
As to end-user support... I've had good experiences with every Linux company and every lone developer I needed help from. As to "migrate native applications" to the platform, I assume you mean Office.
Yeah, you keep waiting for MS to port Office to Linux, something they've specifically said they won't do. I'm not going to hold my breath. There are good alternatives (OOo) and Word, Excel run just fine under Crossover.
The story we need to tell is that there are tens of thousands of applications at your fingertips at $0 cost when you use something like Debian GNU/Linux. The apps are here. Try a vanilla Windows install something. It comes with a browser, a media player, Write, notepad, a calculator, Solitaire and Hyperterm. Almost nothing, and what is there is, compared to FOSS solutions, mostly crap.
So we just need to build the user base to make the platform ubiquitous. Heck, end users may even need a geek to maintain their box for the time being, or at least do the initial install. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked that's the case even with Windows. I'm always getting hit up for free support from family members.
-- John.
Xandros CRIPPLES K3B (Score:1, Insightful)
http://www.xandros.com/products/desktop_matrix.ht
Do you see where it says CD burning is limited to 4X speed? Do you also see where their CD/DVD burning utility doesn't offer DVD burning capability for free edition?
Their CD burning tool is nothing but K3B rebranded. So, they take a free OSS application, SCREW it & CRIPPLE it & even then the
Great.
Create New Or Copy Existing? (Score:1, Insightful)
Lets, for the sake of argument, assume that tomorrow Linux takes over Windows on the desktop. So what will Linux do that Windows can't already do? Will it wash my car? Make a nice scrambled egg and bacon? Still has a web browser. Still has an email program. Still point and click. Someone will monopolize it at some point. If it's not Microsoft, it's Redhat or Xandros. What makes us all think that a company like Xandros or Suse or Redhat has our (the users) best interest at heart? Think this stuff is going to be free forever??? YEAH RIGHT!! Xandros is already charging over $100 for it's system. Same with Redhat and Suse. So where is the free folks? Only a matter of time before licensing fees are added. Think IBM invested tons of $$$ into the kernel cause they wanted to be nice? We don't live in Utopia! It's inevitable, someone or some company is going to make a S#$T Load Of Money.
Also, why is the open source community spending millions of hours duplicating an already successful system? Make something new! Linux is a great system. But why is a desktop so important? Perhaps the decision makers of Linux should focus on newer ways of doing things. Perhaps a desktop is not the way to go. I don't know about you but I got tired of icons. I'd like to be able to think about a file and have it open. Eventually (and perhaps not so far away in time) the desktop will not look anything like it does now. So why try to duplicate an already successful desktop system? So that a couple of geeks sitting in a Starbucks can having bragging rights? Apple already did the desktop thing on Unix and ya know what? It looks a helluva lot like Windows. Still has a browser, emailer and square shaped icons. Honestly, most people could care less about whether their system is using KDE, GNOME, Windows Explorer or Aqua. To me (and most people ) it's all the same. In my opinion, if Linux is to become more than just a platform to run Apache, MySQL and a couple of cell phones, I think Linux needs to innovate and not duplicate.
Distortions (Score:3, Insightful)
You may have found it better to use Linux, and better to train others without the albatross of Microsoft. But for those users without the benefit of a local Linux-experienced geek to help them out, a Windows-alike may be an easier way of exploring alternative OSes.
I actually agree with you in principle, but I meet people who call themselves developers and admin staff each and every single day and a lot of them have never bothered to even install a distro. They've heard of Linux, and that's about it. Now, I am no expert, nor am I a guru. But I've used Linux for the last 8 years now, and I still don't see a lot of people using it.
You would argue that trying to appeal to these people by mimicking Windows is a mistake. I would argue that the proof of this error isn't in yet. And anyway, this is just one effort among many. (Are any of them really working yet??)
If you were in Linspire's shoes (money, access to programmers and other resources, etc), what exactly would you do to help spread the word?
It caught my Windows printer... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a Brother HL 1020 laser printer, which strictly speaking is a Windows printer. Xandros identified it and set it up correctly right during the installation.
Let's just say I really like this distro. I chose it very carefully, and I have yet to have an issue with it.
Re:Not good for free software (Score:4, Insightful)
>hosts or supports Open Source or Free Software.
Gee...is that why there's a Windows version of Firefox?
>Why should we continue
>to spoonfeed them when there
>is no benefit coming back our way?
>They aren't supporting our community,
>they aren't supporting our
>development, they aren't supporting
>anything we do,
Fanaticism's fun, isn't it kids? I can really visualise the foam issuing forth from the mouth of this particular commenter. Of course, in their autonomic fanaticism, it never occurs to such enlightened thinkers as this one that perhaps when using OSS applications in Windows, it might cause at least some users to become curious about these apps' native OS. This also genuinely does happen...Newbies visit the Linux From Scratch IRC server all the time.
I actually can't think of a better way than something like Cygwin for gradually familiarising a windows user with a command line. It's the perfect wading pool scenario...they can get their feet wet to their hearts' content, but they can also run back to the percieved safety of Windows whenever they need to. Then, when the day comes when they feel they've learnt enough in that medium, they can begin to dual boot. Maybe they want to be able to web surf without security risks. Maybe they've grown sufficiently accustomed to bash in cygwin that they want to experiment with scripting/automation more thoroughly. Maybe they want a graphical user interface that is configurable from the ground up. Either way, they can keep XP for games or whatever else they want, while embracing Linux for those individual reasons...then when the day comes that Linux does run the games they want as well, (via cedega etc)
if they're confident enough they can uninstall XP completely.
Migration is a very transitional process...it doesn't happen all at once...and it has to start somewhere. Getting Linux more widely accepted is going to be a very long term, large scale task...and attitudes like the one in the parent article are not going to help us get there.
Re:Not good for free software (Score:3, Insightful)
How many Microsoft Windows users have you seen reporting bugs with the Free Software they're running on their Windows machines? How many contribute code fixes back? How many actually donate or support the Free Software projects they're using in ANY way? I'd venture to guess less than 1% overall.
While the number of windows users who report bugs or who contribute to FOSS may be small this may be because they just want things to work and either wouldn't know what the problem was or didn't have the programming skills to submit bug fixes. Those who work with a FOSS OS however are more than likely more proficient in one if not both of these.
FalconRe:Not good for free software (Score:2, Insightful)
People are not going to take the time to care about freedom as it relates to licenses and source code. They just aren't. Now, they might eventually if the RIAA and MPAA and the hardware manufacturers start restricting peoples' access to media, but that's a future consideration, and is not applicable today.
So... how can you get them to switch over? Offer a faster, more accessible product. This is simple, and it works. Just take a look at vehicles. Used to be that you'd have to hand-crank your car. Then came electric ignition. Then came automatic transmissions. Air conditioners and heaters came into fashion. Radios too. Then came anti-lock brakes. People will use better, easier to use products when comparably priced (and since Windows is included in the price of a new PC, and since new PCs carry warranties, they are more desirable than a bare bones PC and a distro). Many will even pay a premium to use a better product (DVD players vs. VCRs, Macs, cookware, etc).
So, if people aren't using Linux, then maybe Linux isn't superior to Windows and Mac OSX for the things that count for the average user. Crazy, I know, but the numbers don't lie.
Re:The wrong direction (Score:3, Insightful)
Not only this, but lets say that noone does anything to create Windows compatability and Linux does overthrow the Windows monopoly. If nothing is done then there will be 15 years of Windows and Dos compatible programs that are lost. All of the games that many kids have grown up with won't be able to be run on a modern computer. Many undocumented file formats (and the files encoded in them), without the programs to run them will be lost, a problem plaguing us already.
This is not the operating systems version of the penis measuring contest, but a serious software endevour.