Revamped Linux Kernel Numbering Concluded 272
kernel_dan writes "Following on the heels of a prior discussion about a kernel numbering scheme, KernelTrap has the conclusion. From summary: "Linus Torvalds decided against trying to add meaning to the odd/even least significant number. Instead, the new plan is to go from the current 2.6.x numbering to a finer-grained 2.6.x.y. Linus will continue to maintain only the 2.6.x releases, and the -rc releases in between. Others will add trivial patches to create the 2.6.x.y releases. Linus cautions that the task of maintaining a 2.6.x.y tree is not going to be enjoyable.'" Torvalds suggested specific guidelines to alleviate burn-out of the .y maintainer and Greg KH volunteered to begin maintainership."
Someone else wanted to hold the toy (Score:1, Insightful)
Numbering... eek. (Score:5, Insightful)
2.6.x...
2.6.x.y...
2.6.x.y.z...
Kind of a Zeno's Paradox, isn't it?
What was wrong with the old way? (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't been following the kernel mailing list, but as a regular linux user from way back, I'm not clear on why the old way was dropped. This way seems a lot more confusing to me.
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This should help, if disciplined (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm really curious because I felt that after the disaster that the early 2.4 series was, the kernel team really pushed a good 2.6 release out and it's been quite smooth from 2.6.5.
Are you running strange hardware or binary-only drivers or something?
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to be what the vendors want. RedHat 2.4 kernels have so much 2.6 stuff back-ported they're barely 2.4 anymore.
You know (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like it (Score:3, Insightful)
I think instead, it is better to identify any kernel branch by the maintainer or distribution it comes from... pretty much as it already is. When I first started using Linux, I thought nothing of compiling a new kernel and getting things all tweaked out, installing patches and stuff like that. But lately, I see value in following structure in systems such as seeking out RPMs rather than compiling new things. It is far more simple and a lot less frustrating at times trying to keep up with my own set of kernel patches. (Oh, I cannot upgrade to the newest kernel because the So-n-so patch hasn't been updated yet) While the same is true or even slightly worse when it comes to RPM dependency, there is at least some structure and predictability to be found.
I predict that the change will be short lived as it will be found that people will become frustrated with keeping up with all these kernel revisions.
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:4, Insightful)
As near as I can tell from reading recent comments on this particular decision, the single biggest reason they don't want to do 2.7 is because not enough people will test it. Only by calling it 'stable' can they get enough testers. Of course, the fact that it will now never really BE stable, seems to have been lost on them.
This is better than what they have been doing, but only slightly. What Linus seems to really want is for everyone in the whole world to be using the very most recent kernel. He wants, in essence, everyone in the world to be beta testers. By putting out new code and calling it 'stable', he gets hundreds of thousands of testers, and is able to shake out bugs much faster.
Apparently, the possibility that it might be banks and hospitals that are discovering these bugs didn't occur to them. Discovering a bug is an EXTREMELY PAINFUL PROCESS for someone who isn't expecting one. So instead of doing the nasty hard work of maintaining separate stable and development branches, they push that pain onto everyone else in the world.
Personally, I want software that works more than I want the latest whizbang feature. That's why I got onto Linux in the first place, a decade ago... I was frustrated with Windows. It was such a delight to run software that never, ever crashed. It was crude, it was simple, but it was *incredibly* reliable, and that more than any other single thing is why I switched.
I find it quite ironic that Windows 2003, in the hands of capable admins, with all its design flaws and warts, is substantially more stable than is Linux. There's a reason Ars Technica switched from Linux to Windows, and stayed there. If anyone on the planet is competent, it's those guys. And from the sound of it, they're very happy with the results.
At this point, I'm so disgusted with this state of affairs that I'm running a test installation of FreeBSD. Their development cycle is much saner. They don't have as many features, but the ones they DO have, seem to work. Maybe they should add a new motto: "Software by Adults, for Folks Who Could Lose Their Job if it Breaks".
*sigh*
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
You do your best, you release it as 1.0, and then you start all over again to fix bugs and work towards the next full release. Making the numbers smaller doesn't change the quality of your software, it just helps a programmer live with the perceived embarrassment of not writing the perfect piece of code. In the final analysis, the numbers are all arbitrary; any sense of pride in your work or shame about your mistakes is a personal issue. Take Apple as an example. You could strip the 10 off of 10.3.8 and say that they are on version 3.8 of OS X. That means that version 4.0 is just around the corner, and that makes their turn-around cycle sound that much more impressive. To those who protest that a full point release demands unbelievable innovation and "drastic code re-writes," I have to ask, "Where is that written?" In the final analysis, versioning is all in your head.
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why use x-y? (Score:3, Insightful)
Scared of 3 (Score:2, Insightful)
What is with people. Most open source projects seem to be scared of the number 1 so every piece of software is 0.x.y.z now the kernel people have become afraid of 3 (or maybe 7) either way this is just silly. I can see it now, in twenty years time we will be up to 2.9.9.9.9.3.8.1 because nobody will take the plunge and call it 3. At least the emacs people got a grip and just dropped the 0.
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because your post smells like a troll.
Personally, I want software that works more than I want the latest whizbang feature
So, Linus barged into your office with a gun, demanding you run the latest kernel?
For what you want (sane development cycle), there are DISTRIBUTIONS. What's wrong with distributions, I ask you?
I'm a RedHat (not Fedora) man myself, but the sysadmins at work prefer Debian. To each his own, but there is noone that forces an unstable kernel down your throat.
Confused? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Scared of 3 (Score:2, Insightful)
too much classification (Score:1, Insightful)
Why?
Who really cares if a kernel is a major rewrite or not? What's wrong with a single number? In theory you would have development kernels labelled with a timestamp and then only release the stable ones publicly with a regular version.
kernel 0
kernel 1
kernel 2
etc.
The strange numbering schemes and now the stupid debates over how to re-number future kernels is such a waste of time! Linus and friends could actually be fixing the 2.6.x CD burning fiasco instead.
version naming is political art (Score:3, Insightful)
well, i'm not a big fan of prescriptive labeling [glug.org] in general.
Too many branches/sub-branches (Score:1, Insightful)
2.6.x
2.6.x.y
2.6.x-rcx
2.6.x-mmx
2.6.x-rcx
2.6.x-as
2.6.x-gk
2.6.x-ac
Personally, I think that is ludicrously too many branches to have co ordinated development done.
In my mind and I accept I may be _mad_, it would seem to make sense to have a
release, stable and testing branch... and that's it.
I _thought_ that 2.6.x was supposed to be 'stable' and that -mm was supposed to be the equivalent of 2.7... but, now it looks as if 2.6.x will be a kind of 'beta' stable... with 2.6.x.y being the 'real' stable branch.
But, then there are all the other little patchsets from -** to contend with, also...
I think the versoning model is becoming highly unwieldly.... which is sad, because I consider myself a Linux zealot... so I don't like coming to this conclusion..
I hope I'm wrong.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally I think many projects (especially open-source) are getting out of hand with the version numbers. Just look at some of the version information on some Debian packages.
I mean, you have stuff like version "testing-4.3.0.dfsg.1-12.0.1". Does no one else see that as insane? I know each part has a purpose, but it seems more like improper project management. Is this possibly caused by a lack of proper scheduling? Things take too long and people start branching off into separate sub-versions.
It's the same thing with the kernel. I see no reason for official kernels to have so many frickin sub-versions. KISS, please. I think you reach a certain point and then the versions have lost all meaning. End-users can't keep track of all this stuff. Please implement better project management practices and just do actual releases with a simple versioning scheme.
Re:What was wrong with the old way? (Score:3, Insightful)
Please name the banks or hospitals that upgrade kernels every time Linus make a point release. If they really exist, I want to be sure to stay clear of them.