Dvorak on How Microsoft Can Kill Linux 842
gewg_ writes "John C. Dvorak thinks he knows the way Redmond can kill Linux. Basing his premise on the relative dearth of device drivers available for Linux (compared to what is available for Windows), he sees an opportunity for the Borg to embrace and extinguish." From the article: "The immediate usefulness of Linux running under Windows is obvious. You can use all the Windows drivers for all the peripherals that don't run under Linux. Drivers have always been an issue with Linux as PC users have gotten spoiled with Windows driver support. Today's user wants to grab just about anything and not worry about installing it and making it work."
Re:Where'd the last story go? (Score:3, Insightful)
-1 Troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly. Why ever link to that joker?
Don't click (Score:5, Insightful)
John Dvorak knows the state of Linux drivers versus Windows (or Mac) perfectly well. This is an excellent example of writing something obviously incorrect so you get a huge amount of hits and links from people that (rightly) disagree.
Exactly like the Science Citation Index, actually, but speeded up about 20 times.
I disagree completely with Dvorak (Score:5, Insightful)
The first thing I disagree with is his assertion of how useful Linux would be when running under Windows. Is anyone crying for this?
His second assertion that Microsoft could create a flavor of Linux with their driver-base that people would adopt is just as loony. Beyond its quality nature, isn't one of the reasons people switch to Linux to get rid of Microsoft and their business practices and high prices?
Not exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies like Intel and ATi are examples of how the hardware manufacturers are realizing that Linux users want to use their hardware too.
So, let me get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)
If that were true, why hasn't Windows gone away?
Dvorak thinks that open-source developers will stop working on their stuff if they perceive it as benefitting Microsoft. I say this is obviously not true; there are many, many projects now that run on Windows (like Firefox, just to pick one major example), and their developers don't seem the least bit deterred by running on Windows.
CoLinux already does this (Score:2, Insightful)
Interesting, but ... no (Score:2, Insightful)
It's an interesting article--but I doubt just drivers would satisfy most people. There's applications they'll want to work, too. (That said, I'd personally be delighted if all my hardware would work under Linux; then I'd never need Windows. But I could just as easily have gotten Linux-friendly hardware ... and if you want Linux-ish distro that "just works" ... there's OS X. :)
"Secret Project" my ass (Score:4, Insightful)
Its called Cooperative Linux, and has been around for quite some time.
www.colinux.org [colinux.org]
Yet, suspiciously, the Linux kernel running on my laptop hasn't spontaneously died. Hmm. This Dvorak chap is quite the retard.
Re:Don't click (Score:4, Insightful)
And why shouldn't they? (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean, all i hear, over and over, is how linux is BETTER than windows.
This last week i've been trying, over and over, to get ANY linux distro to boot upto a graphical user interface, so that my brother can use it without the worry of using the command line (which i think he could also use if he really tried). I've had no end of problems, first there was the problem of commands which stupid names, and commands which appeared the same.( xf86config is NOT xf86cfg )
I tried many distros, livecds and netinstalls, all of which failed in a different (And sometimes amusing ) ways. However, this just goes to show that linux is FAR from what is needed for the adverge JOE user to switch.
Plus its huge lack of support for games (i know its gathering but for joe, he just wants it to work) and such ideas as just plugging in some hardware and having it work.
Im not a windows lover, i hate m$ as much as the next guy, but unless someone can provide something which at least has a gui (yeh cmd line might be great but its not what i want) which works OUT OF THE BOX (or at least with very little configuring) then m$ are going to continue to win.
Oh, and i also use firefox.
Has Dvorak ever run Linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Linux device drivers are a big problem
and
2) Putting Windows PnP in Linux would be an easy task
I have a problem with #1 because, well, I haven't had a problem with device drivers for years. The first thing I do with a new computer (and I've gone through 5, from Dell and HP, in the last few years) is reformat, install Windows, and then install Linux. Guess which one is easier to install? Guess which one requires special driver disks and arcane "press-F8-at-the-right-time-during-the-install" crazieness to get things working? That's right: windows. With Linux, stick the CD in, click a few buttons, and done.
The problem with #2 should be obvious to everyone: one of the main tasks of an OS is to manage devices. Look at the code in the kernel that does this. Sure, there's other important stuff (vfs, memory management, process management, etc), but if you count the lines, the heaviest piece of the OS is device driver management. Ripping this out and sticking in Redmonds garbage would be disastrous.
Now, user-mode linux is a different beast. Even virtualizing the hardware could get things to work correctly under Dvorak's scheme without so much effort. But what he suggests is not only ludicrous, its outright silly, and really illustrates how out of touch he is with how technology works.
Re:I disagree completely with Dvorak (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing I don't get is that he acts like Microsoft owns the drivers. The hardware manufacturers own the drivers. If Linux becomes the dominant OS, hardware manufacturers will write drivers that run directly in Linux. Why would they continue to write drivers that run in HAL when it is just a piece of cruft attached to the real OS?
A pathway to switching (Score:3, Insightful)
If a user run MS-Linux and liked it, then they could make sure their next system had hardware that could run gpl-linux.
And I really doubt microsoft would move down a pathway of familiarizing people with linux.
Drivers (Score:3, Insightful)
My favorite two bookshops have web based terminals that allow a user to search for a book and not bug the employees. One is unable to get out of these screens and into Windows, but one can tell by the sound, cursors, and occasional reboots that they are really win machines running underneath.
All of this reminds me of those days in the 1980's when everyone was putting Apple ][ based end user terminals in their shops, but the app or utility that was being served was pretty trivial. When the Apple clones came out (like Franklin and their ilk) the expensive Apple hardware started going away. (You could tell on those machines because there were ways to crash the system or "break" into basic and see whose hardware it was.
My guess is that ultimately on web based terminals and other mainframe terminal services, that there's a huge market of machines that are being sold on price alone. As long as there are "some" varieties of cheap hardware that run with Linux, I can't see this ever becoming a lock-in... price is just too important for some people. To those markets, it's the lucrative OS that will fall out of fashion in favor of the cheap and functional alternative.
Way to kill linux. (Score:2, Insightful)
to our specific needs. We can run Linux on a 500 mhz pentium with 512mb of ram, junk video card and an 18gig disk with no problems. No need for a video management solution to manage all 400 of our servers, no need for mice. Just SSH.
Not *any* device (Score:3, Insightful)
If it is blessed, then it works like magic..
Never gonna happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Look how Microsoft very rarely mentions Linux, and barely mentions OS X at all (if ever). Microsoft's voice is heard by so many pointy-haired bosses that to talk about someone or release a product based around them is to give free advertising. Granted, they make an Office for Mac, but you'd never know it if you weren't a Mac user.
Re:Boring day? (Score:5, Insightful)
Dvorak, on the other hand, knows better. He knows that if he calls the iBook 300 "girly" or says that Linux-on-Windows will put Red Hat, Debian, and Gentoo out of business, people will rush to the web site to read his rubbish, and then comment on it it forums, link to it on blogs and slash sites, and go to great lengths to alert the world about how wrong he is... all of which gets his site hits, and makes his publisher very happy with him. He's laughing all the way to the bank, because his goal is not to be seen as insightful, but simply to be seen.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
John Dvorak: Threat or Menace? (Score:4, Insightful)
The other? Software. There are still some tremendous voids in the software area. There is no equivalent to Visio (yes, I've tried Dia and it's cute, but it's not Visio), and the Gimp isn't Photoshop or even Paint Shop Pro. Linux needs more apps like Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice that can really bridge the gap, and can offer clear advantages over Windows applications.
Tell us, o mighty tech oracle... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, MS-Linux? W(hy)TF would I use that? The reason people use Linux is usually to get away from Windows and it's diseases. Why would I run Linux as a subjugated app under an inferior kernel design on a server? To enhance security? Ha!
Dvorak says "MS Linux would quickly become the dominant linux distribution." He pulled that right out of his arse. Does he think that many people would actually buy Linux from Microsoft when it's available for FREE elsewhere?
John C. Dvorak--I think you over estimate MS's position to dominate a market that's based on not being Microsoft.
Mmm... 3 day old OSNews story. (Score:3, Insightful)
Dvorak is right about as often as it rains lava in New York.
Somebody who's been predicting the death of the Macintosh since TCP/IP stacks were still third-party user-installed add-ons thinks he knows where computing is going? The only thing separating him from a blathering retard in a homeless shelter is that whoever's paying him is even less cluefull than he is.
Does he even understand why people use Linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
Problems with Dvorak's Article: (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's put aside for a moment the fact that a major focus on Linux development would be disastrous for Microsoft (It would essentially encourage a mass migration from Windows servers), Dvorak makes some ridiculous blind leaps in assuming that an MS driver layer would [a] Become dominant (based upon what? Microsoft's proven ability to write superior code?) and [b] even if MS succeeded, that their success would cause the entire Linux world to pack up and go elsewhere.
Is Dvorak's supposition that all Linux development is driven merely by the desire to "not" give Microsoft any more cash? Funny, I thought it was to build a stable, faster, and open-sourced OS.
Developing yet another commercial add-on, hardly negates Linux's core mission and value. It would however negate the mission and core value of Windows Servers.
I say go for it Microsoft. Let's see who wins.
Re:vmware (Score:1, Insightful)
I think maybe he needs to be embraced. Man's clearly not healthy.
Stop promoting this douche! (Score:4, Insightful)
He intentionally writes dumb columns in order to (negatively) attract readers.
That's Too Much Work! (Score:3, Insightful)
Even if the MS Linux distribution were no better than any other, people would still buy it and/or support contracts preferentially over any other. Most people always play it safe. MS could still support Windows if they wanted to, or they could gradually phase it out. If they play nice, they could cut their development costs by leveraging the vast open source development community. So far, IBM has been able to embrace Linux and open source without killing their business, I think Microsoft can do the same. Developers didn't abandon Linux when IBM and Novell joined the party and I doubt they will if Microsoft joined in too. Indeed, a lot of Windows developers would be pulled along too. The question is whether Microsoft is brave enough to let go of the Windows security blanket.
Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:5, Insightful)
He doesn't know the first thing about what he's saying!
Linux as a task under Windows exists!
Linux as a task under Linux exists.
In either instance, the "guest" OS doesn't get a "magic ride" on the hosts's drivers.
He takes an out-of-context comment, and combines it with half-knowlege of the subject and a dollop of wishful thinking.
Whoops! I think I just defined "Visionary"!
Re:Don't click (Score:5, Insightful)
Driver support used to be a problem under Linux, but it really hasn't been a problem for quite some time. There are certainly exceptions to that statement, but your blanket statement that Windows has vastly better driver support simply isn't true anymore.
Re:Don't click (Score:2, Insightful)
Example: I'm constantly pushing Linux on people in the office. Not being an ass about, just regularly reminding them of what it can do. A co-worker decided to give it a go and install Mandrake on a laptop. He got almost everything set up within a day or two, having never used Linux before. Then he tried to get his wireless card working. For some reason Mandrake recognized his card, but didn't have the module available for his current kernel (the stock kernel from Mandrake btw).
Now, my co-worker's no lay-man. He's a decent programmer, and he set himself on the task of getting the driver working. He spent the next week fighting the OS to get his card working. He ended up learning how to recompile a kernel, and learning how modules work, and kernel versions and all that. The card is finally working, with various front-end guis installed to configure it as well. The point is, it's way too much work for the common pc user to have to go through to get the card working. And this is directly a driver's issue.
I know that's a feature that modules with a different kernel version than the currently compiled kernel won't work, but at the same time, requiring a recompilation of a driver because it's version 2.6.10 instead of 2.6.12 is ridiculous. It's not something that a normal user should be expected to do. Linux has a lot of catching up to do in this regard. And part of the responsibility falls on driver manufacturer's, part on the distributions, and part on the kernel writer's. It should be much simpler.
Re:vmware (Score:3, Insightful)
Once you get used to a window manager of choice on unix, and begin making use of features such as letting you click in a background window without it coming to the front, and the select, middleclick paste of X11.. Once you get used to this, and the multiple workspaces, and many other features of X11... you find windows totally unuseable and restrictive.
Re:Confused... (Score:2, Insightful)
Dvorak can be a Weirdo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:5, Insightful)
# Linux as a task under Windows exists!
# Linux as a task under Linux exists.
# In either instance, the "guest" OS doesn't get a "magic ride" on the hosts's drivers.
I suspect you didn't actually READ beyond the first paragraph of the article (either that, or you just didn't understand it) nor did any of the people that modded you up.
His comment about running Linux as a task was not his topic, it was simply pointing out an existing project. What he IS talking about is replacing the Linux driver interface with a Windows compatible driver interface that basically allows Linux to use MS drivers. I can't really comment on the feasibility of this, but this is a far cry from running Linux as a task.
Re:Confused... (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux Drivers (Score:3, Insightful)
Point 1: If Microsoft were to get into the business of writing drivers for Linux, how would that differ (aside from licensing) from purchasing commercial drivers or downloading free drivers? More importantly, how would this kill Linux? As he pointed out, commercial software already runs under Linux without any GPL implications. The community buys this software when it must, but usually develops around it.
Point 2: I have had fewer driver problems with Linux than Windows. Windows actually seems to sometimes generate driver problems, by seeking out a very specific driver where a generic one will do fine. A good example would be the USB port on my EPIA MII-12000 motherboard. It's USB 2.0. Linux sees that it is USB 2.0, and runs it as such. 'nuf sed. Windows, on the other hand, requires that I use the driver that came with the mobo (which is not inherently a problem) and no other. Not that this is a problem, but why?
Re:Windows drivers on Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Ndiswrapper gets pretty much as close as you can get. You don't have to edit anything. Just tell it where the driver is, and it does the rest.
You have to do the same thing in Windows. You always have.
On the other hand, there are versions of Linux that CAN automagically figure out what device is needed for most devices and load it for you. I'd venture that there are even more of these automagical devices for linux than there are for Windows.
Most Windows devices require that you install the drivers yourself. Still, when you have to DIY in Linux, it's usually a lot more of a hassle (if it's even possible) than it is in Windows.
Re:effect of the GPL (Score:3, Insightful)
Funny. I agree that he's wrong for a different version, but it's a different different reason.
Let's face it, nobody looks at Windows and says to themselves "wow, great driver support." [Note: maybe they should, because Win95 single-handedly forced hardware manufacturers to stop making up their own rules and actually design their hw/drivers around standardized specifications, but I digress...]
Plus, going forward, it's pretty clear that (until that NdisWrapper thingy makes it into the stock Linux kernel trunk -- if possible) hw vendors are going to have to start making a serious effort with *native* Linux support because - more and more - it's driving purchasing decisions, so I'm not real concerned about the future of driver support, just the legacy stuff.
Nope, instead, I figured that if Microsoft was going to make have a go with Linux, they'd focus on the one area where Linux has needed a little standardization - the desktop environment. I figure if MS gets involved at all, it'll be with a Windows DE running on a stock or optimized Linux kernel. Linux would provide the engine, Windows would provide the cockpit instrumentation and in-flight entertainment. (Plus, they'd still get to sell optimized versions of MS Office and their business CRM and accounting software - don't forget how important *that* is to them.)
Of course, that idea (which is now a couple of years old in my head) is probably outdated too, now, because the latest versions of Gnome and KDE are coming along *VERY* nicely, plus that whole Wine/Codeweavers Crossover*/XEN approach is probably going to the whole hardware and OS choice utterly irrelevant anyway as we just fire up emulators to do everything on thiry different native OSs in the future.
It should be fun watching MS try to stay relevant, eh? EXPECT WEIRDNESS!
Re:They're using the wrong OS to begin with (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, what? Serial number?
Well, so you know, on a Mac you just plug in the iPod and iTunes asks if you want to associate the iPod with the current library, click yes and it feeds the iPod.
You have to agree to iTunes license the first time you use iTunes, just like every application on any operating system you have to agree to the license whether it presents itself or not.
I had no idea that Windows complicated even the most banal task of connecting an iPod.
Re:Confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
What makes Xandros buggy? Isn't it all the same basic sets of open source code that's so much more secure and stable than anything Microsoft produces?
An unsafe and a safe house can be built from exactly the same bricks, it's the way you arrange those bricks.
All the best open software is tested to hell and back through lots of release candidates etc.. If a distro chooses to use these development versions of software or doesn't test the combination of software they are using throughly (essentially making it a development distro) then you can't expect the security and stability that open source software done properly provides
Re:Confused... (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone talks about the "death" of Linux that, or Microsoft "crushing" Linux. They may someday crush Redhat and SuSE and others, but they're never going to stop this "geek (r)evolution" from continuing to unfold. The only thing that could do that is something just as free and better.
Re: What a MORON! (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, you're really missing the point.
Microsoft's winning tactic is "embrace and extend": grudgingly accept the winning standard, get LOTS of people to use the MS version, then slowly deviate from that standard. They win by default via customer loyalty; when a large majority of users choose the MS solution, the "standard" becomes whatever MS says it is
In this case, the idea is to play off Linux's biggest weakness: lack of drivers. MS drivers may suck, but at least they exist! (Personally, it was incredibly frustrating to run Knoppix on a once-popular reasonably-capable Gateway laptop and not even have sound because the drivers wouldn't support even the most common sound card - but freakin' Win95 that was on it runs sound fine! ARGH!) By "embracing" Linux via a method heavily dependent on drivers, there would be a boom in Linux - to be specific, MS-Linux. Then, once hooked like crack addicts, upgrades gradually fork away from "real" Linux and toward Windows - exactly what Microsoft did to IBM regarding OS/2. The few hardcore Linux users left are left swinging in the breeze.
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:5, Insightful)
It would probably mean that manufacturers would say: Heck, leenooks people want drivers, microsoft wants drivers, let's just write linus drivers, since MS can use their MS-Linux.
That woul dbe the death of the current windows Codebase.
OT: Longhorn will not be released. Microsoft will have collapsed enough by then that they won't be able to support the core dev team.
Fine, don't believe me. Just remember that windows 2003 server is already 2 years old, it is an overkill already.
That, and if you want real enterprise-grade software, you go Linux (free as in Zero Dollars)
For those of you who have a hard time accespting the last statement:
Oracle is the de-facto enterprise database. See http://www.itp.net/news/details.php?id=13678&cate
IBM's newest mainframe, the zSeries, supports Redhat, Suse, and Turbolinux. But no MS Windows. See http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/os/ [ibm.com]
Linux on cellphones:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1765103,00.a
Linux at Merryl Lynch, etc etc etc.
You can't kill linux. Even Linus can't kill Linux. If Linus decided he had had enough of the rat race and decided to spend all his time at home with his wife, Linux would go on withour missing a beat.
Microsoft can't kill linux for the very same reasons.
Re:WHAT!? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the SAME GUY who went through tirade after temper-tantrum-touting-tirade about how he was eviling being targeted as an Apple hater meanwhile spewing out vitriolic fodder on how Apple will die (all within the confines of an OBJECTIVE viewpoint, of course
Dvorak's not a credible source. Case closed.
Re:vmware (Score:4, Insightful)
The juxtaposition seems as disingenious as that of the Linux kernel alongside the whole Windows OS.
Running GNU/Linux you've got an embarrassment of choices, and a configuration zoo of libraries to support them, from the spartan minimalism of Ion to the full-tilt boogie of Enlightenment, with KDE and Gnome somewhere in between. So party.
Or just log in to a terminal and get your Emacs on. It really is all good.
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:3, Insightful)
What if there existed an open standard for an operating system driver API?
You mean, like the current Linux driver API?
Or did you mean to say, "what if Microsoft signed on to an open standard for an operating system driver API?"
By the way, it's clear that John's just being a dumbass. With his logic, OS/2 would have won. It was compatible up and down with Windows, with simple technical additions that made it much more usable and robust. Unfortunately for them, people aren't interested in buying a retread, even if it is better than the bald tire it's replacing.
Oh, and in other news, there isn't anything wrong with Linux's drivers or hardware support. There hasn't been for years. There are a few, minor, instances of manufacturers not playing ball, and they will take care of themselves as this snowball keeps rolling.
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Confused... (Score:4, Insightful)
Just remember, a calm and cool zealot will convert more than the raging fanboy.
Re:Why anyone reads him is beyond me. (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally think he's idiotic merely to get people talking about his column. E.g., "Did you hear what Dvorak said about Linux and Windows' drivers?! He's a fucking moron!"
That way he gets people linking to his column, checking out his column, etc, which makes his readership look larger than it really is.
I seriously doubt if Dvorak really believes shit like this.
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, that might do well for the x86 architecture, but, Linux runs a many more platorms than that...I've got Linux running on sparc64's, and on PPC, and soon on a couple of old SGI boxes.
I kinda doubt ms-linux would be of much use to the wide world of Linux.
Re:Don't click (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me take a peek at my system here and recall my experience attempting to install Linux on it...
1) A7V133 motherboard with onboard Promise IDE RAID.
Promise RAID unsupported. Half my hard drives gone.
2) Asus V7100 Geforce2 MX with TV input/output.
TV Input unsupported. TV Output unsupported. Guess I'll have to buy a DVD player and throw my DivX collection away
3) S3 Virge PCI running secondary monitor.
Supposedly it's supported, but I never managed to get it to work, and I spent almost a week working on it nightly. No more multi-monitor support.
4) Hercules Gametheater XP 5.1 sound card.
All inputs unsupported. Optical output unsupported. Stereo support only. No support for pass-through of Dolby streams. No support for integrated USB hub functionality. Guess I better sell my speakers, no point in having hardware Dolby decoding for a stereo PCM stream
5) Sidewinder joystick.
Unsupported.
6) Sidewinder gamepads.
Unsupported
7) Innovage Digicam/Webcam.
Unsupported
8) SiPix Digital Camera
Unsupported
I have Debian installed on several different "plain-jane" boxes around the house, and have experimented with Red Hat, Mandrake, Gentoo and TurboLinux among others. I'm not a guru or anything, but I'm not a n00b either.
I use linux on several boxes around the house, and with all the security vulnerabilities cropping up lately I would love to use it on my main box. But the only way that's going to happen is if I buy a new one, because MOST of the hardware in my current machine isn't supported.
Tell me again how great linux driver support is.
My Win2K Advanced Server install supports all my hardware, and it hasn't been down since I switched back from WinXP Pro 3 months ago.
And it's running, among other things, IIS, SQL Server 2000, PostgreSQL 8.x and JBoss 4.0.1. All while sitting in the DMZ, directly connected to the internet, never been hacked.
I'll eventually buy a new main box to do my work and play on. And I'll hopefully stick linux on it. But this machine is very functional for me, and it will likely NEVER be supported by linux to any appreciable level.
Just because you haven't had any trouble with getting your hardware to work doesn't mean there's not a problem for others, y'know.
Re:Confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've also been running Debian Testing on a G4 tower (works flawlessly) and a homebuilt AMD tower (works flawlessly except for FireWire and MIDI); until last night, neither had ever crashed.
Then last night, for no reason I can ascertain, my AMD box wouldn't boot. After a few reboots, it started to fsck, but slower than any fsck I have ever seen. So I left it overnight.
When I woke up this morning, the screen was full of timing errors, and it was just sitting there. So I rebooted it. And everything's fine.
Am I happy that it crashed, and that I don't know the cause? Nosir. But I've had many a Windows PC stop booting for no reason, and never ever witnessed one fix itself after a few reboots.
Nice Philosophy (Score:3, Insightful)
He claims developers would stop developing because MS would benefit from open source projects. Umm, if I developed a killer app, and I didn't want it to run on MS-Linux, I'd stick a compile-time flag in there. Set the flag for "MS-Linux" support. How many MS-Linux users (people who want many things to work out of the box and probably want to separate themselves from the running parts) would take the time to set the flag? Bingo. Linux-Killer Killer.
Re:Jesus, What a MORON! (Score:4, Insightful)
He's got a point. But, it's also true that shitty third party drivers could be the death of this thing. It would make "MS Linux" look no more reliable than winblows. Ewww.
Re:Confused... (Score:4, Insightful)
I've never had anywhere near the stability problems on Windows as I have on Linux. I can see it being more stable without any sort of GUI interface, but really, I never, ever, ever have any Windows problems.
Of course, you could chalk all that up to a: knowing what I'm doing on Windows and b: not _really_ knowing what I'm doing on Linux. Sure, I've installed Gentoo countless times, so I know stuff somewhat, but I'm nowhere near as experienced as I am with Windows.
But I ramble
Dvorak is a Moron. End of story. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Don't click (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux is a far way from being king of the desktop, but it is one of the most COMPREHENSIVE Free Unixes out there. Don't blame the fact that the rest of the Free Software space doesn't get it on Linux. It's only a kernel. It can only do so much. It's one piece of a very big puzzle, hence the whole GNU/Linux bitchfrenzy.
Re:Confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
Gentoo is known for causing lots of trouble (it seems they don't do much regress-testing at all) so it's really no surprise your gnome is locking up.
Have you checked the version numbers on the countless gnome components? Chance are that some of them are bleeding edge beta or testing versions.
If you're just on linux for the learning expirience and not really using it for productive work (yet) then you might want to dip a toe in the real cold water and try to get a LFS (Linux from scratch) up and running.
It takes patience and time but there's lots of documentation. And after you're done you'll have learned many of the important details that actually make your system tick. Most importantly: When it freezes again you'll know where to look!
That route is hard but I keep recommending it to newbies who are seriously interested in becoming a "guru". It takes work but you learn much more in a very condensed timespan (may very well take a week or longer, though!) than in a year of running some polished up distro and hardly ever touching the command line.
Again, this is not meant offensive, just trying to provide some advice
Re:Confused... (Score:2, Insightful)
out of it as usual (Score:3, Insightful)
colinux.org [colinux.org]
That said, there is no way Linux under Windows would be practical with all the overhead involved.
It's very practical, actually.
If Microsoft actually produced an MS-Linux that was the standard Linux attached to the driver layer of Windows, giving users full Plug and Play (PnP) support of all their peripherals, nobody would buy any other Linux on the market
From first hand experience, I can tell you that this is not a really pleasant solution because it doesn't fix the things that are so wrong with Windows: lack of security, poor package and installer management, lousy system management interfaces, and a bad UI.
The long-term implications of such a scenario, I believe, would be essentially to kill Linux. Microsoft's MS-Linux would quickly become the dominant Linux and the company would begin to profit from all the open-source development work that would go into Linux.
First of all, Dvorak's premise is wrong: Linux has enormous numbers of drivers. Hardware "just works" under Linux when it requires cumbersome and flaky driver installations under Windows.
But let's assume the premise were right. So, people have pure Linux PCs and MS-Linux PCs. Well, that means more commercial Linux usage and the ability of software vendors to standardize on the Linux APIs. The consequence? Cutting the cost of shipping Windows out of a PC becomes a more and more attractive proposition and hardware vendors would ship more and more Linux-only PCs.
Microsoft only needs that one driver element to be proprietary for the plan to succeed.
The flaw in that argument is that it is not Microsoft that is creating the drivers, it is the hardware vendors. Anything Microsoft does to make Linux more popular or credible will mean more Linux drivers from hardware vendors.
Did you even frickin try? (Score:1, Insightful)
My promise raid works fine.
2) Asus V7100 Geforce2 MX with TV input/output. TV Input unsupported. TV Output unsupported. Guess I'll have to buy a DVD player and throw my DivX collection away
I have a Gainward geforce 2 ti with VIVO. Both video input AND video output work.
3) S3 Virge PCI running secondary monitor. Supposedly it's supported, but I never managed to get it to work, and I spent almost a week working on it nightly. No more multi-monitor support.
I'm sorry dude, but you suck at linux.
There's not really a nicer way to say it. You're listing shit that I *KNOW* is supported and saying that it doesn't work. That gives you ZERO credibility.
Here are some links proving that so of this hardware ACTUALLY IS SUPPORTED:
If you were actually being honest and saying that you simply couldn't get these things to work, I wouldn't be so harsh, but it's pretty damned obvious that you didn't even try, and that things you're calling that "unsupported" ACTUALLY DO WORK.
As a result, your cluelessness is misleading people as to the capabilities of my favorite operating system. The issue here really is your inablity to use google and read directions, not Linux's lack of driver support.
I'm sure I could find more links to get some of his other hardware working, but my aim here is to prove that this guy is incompetent and should not attempt to speak authoritatively on linux driver support.
Let me state this again and very clearly:
I'm not flaming this guy because he couldn't get his hardware to work, that can be a hard thing to do sometimes. I'm flaming this guy because, by stating that something is "unsupported" he is implying that NOBODY has made his hardware work. This is really obviously false, and denies the existence of the hard work of some very nice people. If you can't be bothered to install the right drivers and edit the right config files.... fine, JUST DO GO AROUND IMPLYING THAT OTHER PEOPLE'S HARD WORK DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST.