Linux Users Are Spoiled 753
Dozix007 writes "NewsForge carries an interesting
article
on how spoiled Linux users are. It sites examples such as the
availability of wide ranging software packages that Microsoft can't hope to provide.
Microsoft has to be careful about what kind of application software it
ships with Windows. Microsoft reps sometimes point to Linux
distributions and ask why they can get away with shipping stacks and
stacks of applications without getting in trouble. The answer to that
one, of course, is that the Linux distributions give you a choice. You
aren't locked into one particular application. Most Linux distributions
include several choices for most program classifications; even
single-CD distros usually include several Web browsers and email
clients."
lack of windows software (Score:2, Interesting)
Now That Was a Pathetic First Post (Score:5, Interesting)
And TONS more are available on Linux Format magazine CD's (and even 4GB DVD's)(I have over two dozen of these - GIGABYTES of software I haven't even looked at yet!) or from Web sites and places like Freshmeat and Sourceforge.
Sure, some of them are pre-release alpha
Microsoft's plan is obviously to buy up everybody who produces any software anybody wants to buy. This plan obviously has a few flaws such as the inability of Microsoft - despite $50 billion in the bank - to buy up the entire industry. Also not to mention that a lot of people would rather be CEOs of their own companies than slaves to Bill.
No way Microsoft can ever compete with free software in this regard.
Tough luck, Bill! Have a nice day!
I'll be really spoiled when... (Score:5, Interesting)
2 - I can save some text in OpenOffice as
(Oh yes, and also if KDE and Moz could stop burning megabytes of memory for nothing, that'd be nice too, but I can live with it)
As long as there isn't a very reliable PS replacement, and a very reliable Office replacement, under Linux, I'll always feel like a one-legged athlete : really powerful and really good in handisport events, but never really able to compete in regular sport championships.
Options are good but what if... (Score:1, Interesting)
With that said Microsoft does provide it's "locked" interface so people can concentrate on what they have to do and not their interface and what not. So technically you pay money for a "locked down" set up so you can do what you need to do. Which is good and bad depending on what type of user you are.
It's all about trust (Score:3, Interesting)
Agreed. (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, this assumes two things:
#1 -- Your hardware is supported
#2 -- The software you want/need is made for Linux
I'm finding that both of these requirements are being met more and more every day. The latest hardware seems to be supported, the applications are becoming more feature rich and very useful to a wide range of users (some of the apps are the best no matter how you slice it (mozilla, firefox, etc..))
As far as being "spoiled" well umm.. I dunno. I think its more of a "meets expectations" type of a thing -- stable, reliable, secure. Though I must admit, I do feel a lil' spoiled a bit when my Windows buddies get zapped with the latest spyware or IE issue -- but honestly, should I?
Growl! (Score:2, Interesting)
No - not spoiled at all - read my post: (Score:1, Interesting)
1. Printer does not work
2. Cannot go on the internet - does not recognize/install DSL.
3. Scanner does not work.
Now tell me, you MS-bashing geeks. *WHY SHOULD I PRAISE LINUX WHEN IT DOES NOT WORK?* (and pleezz - don't play the 'oh he's so stupid' game on me).
Face it: Linux sucks until "it works" for Joe Average.
Re:Konqueror (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Linux easier than Windows? Unpossible. (Score:5, Interesting)
While it may seem easier to install applications in Windows, you have to think about it from both sides --- you have to take complete beginners into account as well. If you're presenting a computer to Grandma, what would be easier to explain?
In Windows, it goes something like this: "if you want to install software, you must purchase a boxed set and put the CD in the drive. It may or may not start automatically, if it doesn't, you'll have to click on My Computer, D:, and double click on the Setup executable. If you want to install from the Internet, you must download it to your computer, and then double click on Setup.exe or Install.exe or whatever shows up." Can you see Grandma's head spinning yet?
But in a (well-configured) APT-based Linux environment with Synaptic, it's as simple as "OK Grandma, click on this icon here, and this is Synaptic, and you will use this to upgrade your system as well as installing and removing every single program you will ever need."
If I were a beginner, I'd appreciate the Synaptic method more. Just thought I'd add in my two cents.
Re:lack of windows software (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Linux easier than Windows? Unpossible. (Score:4, Interesting)
emerge sync
emerge -UD world
Let's take a look at those, shall we? The emerge sync seems pretty easy. Just run the program responsible for package management and tell it to sync up with a mirror. Hey, that actually makes sense. then emerge -UD world. This one's a little trickier. There's emerge and world, which one might guess means update everything, but the -UD is so weird. Reading the man page for portage shows that these two options will update the currently installed packages and all their dependencies. Damn that manual page for making things clear. The && is just a command line 'and' that allows you to do both in one line (no waiting around for the first to complete) and does the second only if the first succeeds.
I've heard that God Himself has actually forbidden lazy users from learning anything about a CLI these days, but maybe, just maybe some people could take the && from C and guess at it's intent. Given that not everybody is a programmer, maybe somebody could wrap it up pretty in a two line shell script for you, and create an icon on your desktop called "Update" so you can be right at home. That seems to be about the level of effort we could expect from a user, right? Or maybe we could just have it in the crontab by default and save people from realizing their system is ever updated. Why bother having the users know anything about their computer?
That's not to say that Gentoo is unflawed about updates. It's inability to decide whether to just replace old configuration files or not is fairly annoying, forcing it onto the user in some cases. It would be really nice if they'd just check to see if they were old unmodified config files and replace them if they were at the very least, but it hasn't always done that for me.
But, as for the original poster, he's right. There's so much third party stuff that MS isn't allowed to think about keeping updates for on hand because it's all proprietary. Going out to the sites for every single bit of software you use, or doing their in application update is a pain as well and it would be nice if there was a central update. Despite any of Gentoo's downpoints on package management I've found it to be quite nice.
Gentoo (Score:3, Interesting)
I once tried "emerge -pretend some-package" and it didn't show lots of dependencies, so a while later I did "emerge some-package" and discovered that somehow in the meantime libc had been upgraded and the emerge was going to install about a zillion packages. Worse yet, for some reason it failed and my machine was unusable.
I like gentoo, and I'm seriously considering converting about four machines over to gentoo, but I always remember that day and the time it took to get things fixed afterwards. And then too (which does rhyme with gentoo) I always hear a voice in the background whispering "emerge kde-base... The horror..."
Re:Gentoo (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the libc thing, that's Gentoo's (only, IMHO) Achilles' heel - one of my computers is messed up in the same way right now (by the way, what solved it for you?)
Re:What lock-in? (Score:5, Interesting)
Simply put, you are forced to waste your HD space even if you do not want to use IE. If you do not use Mozilla, you can uninstall it. You do not have that option with IE.
Lets not get started of the undocumented system calls, etc that their Office apps can take advantage of to give them the edge that everyone else can't get.
Or how once you begin using Microsoft apps (Office, etc), you can not easily switch to another product, because the data formats are incompatible (because microsoft refuses to release specs on how their programs do it).
Anything which tries to prevent you from using another product in favor of the included product is called lock-in.
Example from Free Geek (Score:3, Interesting)
Although Free Geek is currently using Pentium-IIs for our standard computers, but up until this year we were using Pentium 200s with 2 to 3 gig harddrives. And on that hardware, we managed to install
All of this took slightly less than a gig of harddrive space, and all of these computers were going out to people who mostly just needed to use the internet. And the reason we did this is mostly because we could.
Re:I'll be really spoiled when... (Score:3, Interesting)
To respond to your particular qualm, though, try GIMP 2; it has a toolbar at the top of every image window.
Re:No - not spoiled at all - read my post: (Score:3, Interesting)
How did this get modded up? That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Thanks, but Linux works just great as a server and a desktop for those who know how to use it. Yeah, it sucks so much to have 7000+ packages I can download and install with one command. *sigh*
Linux users are not spoiled... (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, I think that they are making a valid point; MS (or your favorite software mill) is expected to turn out monolithic applications that make most users happy most of the time (partly by lowering the expectations of their users, when necessary). If they shipped five web browsers or six media players, their customers would simply be confused and/or demand that they all share the same preferences, etc. Most lusers feel the same way about making such choices as other people feel about buying a car -- the choices seem infinite, confusing, and there's always a suspicion in the back of your mind that you're letting the salesman have too much influence on your decision.
They're jealous that Linux has users who are willing to weigh the options and make choices rather than blindly choose a one-size-fits-all solution.
Re:Gentoo (Score:3, Interesting)
So i grabbed an old set of Red Hat CD's and installed Red Hat. And quickly started wanting gentoo back.
And -K does help a lot.
Re:I'll be really spoiled when... (Score:5, Interesting)
Incompatibility is standard monopoly strategy.
So when you reach the point where you can exchange documents with Word -- it'll be when you don't think it is important.
I disagree with the other side... (Score:3, Interesting)
Although you make some good points, a lot don't have to do with windows.
This isn't true in general about Windows applications any more than Mac or GNU programs. Your "unified interface" is generally the result from using software created by only one vendor. What about ATI's Media Center, Intel's Create & Share, or Cyberlink's PoweDVD? What about almost every game (which is generally considered an advantage for using the Windows platform)? What about the Print Shop, Winamp, AIM, or even iTunes? What about Microsoft's own Media Player or MSN browser? Every one of these Windows programs has a drastically different interface compared with MS Office or most bundled Windows apps (like notepad, calc, or mspaint). Yet I used most of them several times in any particular week while using Windows. Granted some programs like CD Creator or even Mozilla Firefox try to mimic Microsoft's HIG; however, those are the exceptions rather than the rule. The only thing that prevents complete disintegration is limitations of Windows's GUI toolkits and half-hearted attempts to follow the HIG. It is a myth that Windows programs share a common interface.
I grant you that, in general, most set-up options are harder with Linux programs than Windows programs. However, that is a feature not a bug! Many Windows problems are the result of users making configuration changes without thinking first. Setting stuff up should be hard so that you don't make changes on a whim. That way most users understand what they are changing and the consequences of it. If something should be changed often, then it is a bug in the program and should be an option instead of a configuration setting.
Besides, try setting up multi-user account defaults in MS Windows (in Linux, you only need to set up and copy a default user's account). Try setting per-user permissions. Try automating common tasks with shell scripts. These things are harder with Windows than with most Linux distributions. And have you ever heard about the registry? This little (big) database with obscure locations for software settings?
Then just pick one package at random. Or do you have problems making decisions? Besides, there are many choices in Windows's world: MSIE vs. Mozilla vs. Opera. Winamp vs. iTunes vs. Media Player. MS Office vs. OpenOffice vs. WordPerfect Office. Notepad vs. jEdit vs. SuperEdi vs. EditPad Pro vs. 1000 other programs. The only difference is that most Linux distributions conveniently bundle most of your options while you have to download or purchase the ones you want with Windows. Windows isn't usable by itself for nearly anything besides browsing the internet, after all.
What about "pushd", "Excel", or "Explorer"? Each one of those is a Windows program distributed by Microsoft with an equally ambiguous name. (BTW, "GREP" is an acronym for "Global Regular Expression Parser". Your confusion is like MSIE to someone who never heard about MicroSoft's Internet Explorer.")
I can make PDF, HTML, JPEG, or even Flash files that work with Windows programs just fine on most Linux distributions. Most (9
It's all third party software (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Linux easier than Windows? Unpossible. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have never done this on Windows. Never had to. Which is one reason it's worth the $200 or whatever I paid for it five years ago.
I love gentoo too, but it's not the answer to whatever the problem with linux' general acceptance. It's the answer to "how do I maintain a cutting edge webserver without having to rely on shady binaries or doing everything by hand."
Incidentally, a buddy of mine used to compile ten different versions of new gentoo files on his fastest computer, then have the others -- ones owned by his mother, uncle, cousins, etc -- "phone home" and download their version. A very neat solution to this problem.
wrong answer (Score:2, Interesting)
Another reason is that i windows is easy install most programs, in linux not, so you better have them all on the install CD
Re:Linux easier than Windows? Unpossible. (Score:2, Interesting)
Tell me, in what sane place do I click in gentoo to figure out the syntax for emerge? No really, I'd like to know, as I've used emerge for three years and haven't seen the "sync &&" part of the command until today. It seems to me that I'd have to use info or man to figure it out...and to run either of these, I have to first know the name of a command -- or similar command -- to figure out its syntax. If you run man update, man patch, or man get the latest version, you get fuck-all. "Emerge" is not exactly a self explanatory program name...shit, it's what happens when a baby duck is born, not what you use to maintain the latest version of your software packages!
I'm similarly annoyed at grep, sed, awk, echo and export. Tail is fine.
Re:Linux is about choice..... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The other side... (Score:3, Interesting)
I love playing games on a rare basis, because I don't want to worry about getting the latest edition of wine and making the game work, I keep windows. It is solely for that purpose but it has other advantages. As an econ major, I deal for ages with excel files and usually I'm required to turn them in in a format that the teacher can easily read, any trouble he has could mean a lower grade and even though open office is great, it has lots of trouble on the randomest of things. I don't run into version problems with windows(between my computer and my teacher's, the computer lab is a completely different matter) but at least because of what my school does, we have version compatibility. This means I prefer to just do the spreadsheet work on windows rather than having to double check that everything on 20 or 30 excel sheets is exactly as I want it. Sometimes this isn't very easy as I might fill up 10000 cells on one sheet.
But then windows crashes constantly, can't move large files without explorer throwing up on me, has endless problems with compatibility of previous releases of their own software(Excel sheets can't port properly from the latest version to only 2 generations ago, and I don't use any new features, I versed enough to know that), I have to constantly be on the alert for the next major security exploit and lock down specific parts of my computer usage if as windows loves to do, wait for ages to come out with a patch.
So for many things, I just got fed up with windows and had a linux zealot as my good friend and neighbor at school get me started. When I say get me started, he gave me the install cd's. I'm not so ignorant as to have trouble with a right click functionality. Now get this, wtih my wierded out hardware, core 1 didn't want to install easily but I took about 2 minutes on the web and found the solution. It happens to be that any time I have a problem with windows I usually spend hours hunting down a solution, and that usually happens to be a functional program on sourceforge(example: VLC replaced windows media player when in order to get WMP to run I would have to spend hours hunting down the right codecs and how to use them while for some reason, they just flawlessly play on VLC).
So I'm caught in the transition between windows and Linux, I don't think I will ever fully migrate but slowly I use linux more and more. Anyone who has problems with the redhat desktop should probably crawl back under a rock. I can do everything on it and a helluva lot more than with windows, especially with that nice multiple desktop feature X does. My only real complaint with linux is what I had with windows years ago, I don't know it well. But oddly enough, I can almost do everything I do on windows. I know if I spend the time, I can make linux 100x more functional. I think the real problem is this, while linux users claim to be lazy people always looking for ways to save time and evergy, they aren't lazy when it comes to computers, they like the idea of learning something new. Anyone who defends windows way of doing this really just doens't want to learn something new. Because Windows is much older in most people's mind, its ways are cemented in. We actually associate their nonsensical names with certain program functions(no, excel and powerpoint in no way describe what the programs do, but after years of having the association drilled into our heads, it does). So of course, the argument that I like my program names to make sense really doesn't have any merit.
I think it any well versed windows user sat down and used X(not the mac) they would almost seemlessly integrate, all they would need to do is get used to programs being in different places. I love one thing about linux, you don't ever have to touch the command line if you don't want to(and frankly, because of
Re:Unix Tools and Shells.. that's what windows lac (Score:3, Interesting)
Tell you what, you take 150000 lines of text, where the pattern is:
23523: asdf[134] - foo bar : xyz
All the numbers and text change on every line. I want *only* the leading digits before the colon, and the trailing text after the final colon, space separated. Doing this with a regular expression and sed is incredibly trivial. Something along the line of (not tested, but basically correct):
sed -e 's/([0-0]+):.*: (.*)$/\1 \2/' f2
Voila. Takes about thirty seconds.
Try that in, um, wordpad, and get back to me in a month when you finish. And don't blather on about some other Windows tool. You said wordpad can replace sed. Have lots of fun.
I always get a big kick out of the awe shown by Windows lusers when they see me rapidly and easily do a complex text manipulation operation such as that in
Larry (who was using vi and sed before Windows even existed)
Re:Linux is about choice..... (Score:5, Interesting)
I.e. You can sell Windows to an OEM at any price but an OEM who buys/ships more copies MUST get it cheaper or at the same price.
In other words. Dell must have the cheapest OEM price on Windows regardless of what they do other OSs. As long as they ship the most copies of Windows XP Home, they pay the cheapest price for XP Home.
Addvertising subsidies would be regulated in the same way.
MS would hate this but it would solve a lot of the problems.
Re:Really bad article or what? (Score:1, Interesting)
However, for me hardware support in Linux has been much better than windows. Granted I don't use firewire at all (no devices that use it), but the wireless nics I've set up in linux have always been easier to get running reliably than in windows.
I have 3 laptops that all run linux close to flawlessly (power management being the only thing that doesn't work normally). I never massage X, do anything with audio, wireless or wired networking, default installs of fedora core, redhat enterprise, gentoo, and mandrake all work the same way, the install finishes, I have X, audio and networking...
All in all I much prefer linux to windows. A full install of fedora core 2 on relatively new hardware took me about 35 minutes recently, and when the install was done I already had an office suite, dev suite, good mp3 player (windows media player doesn't count for this), secure internet browsing and email, database server, web server, email server....
To get all of these things installed on windows would take between 3 and 4 hours, and I find configuring servers/services on linux much easier and faster than on windows...
Anyway, my point is it depends on what you're using it for. I write code and manage hundreds of servers and networked devices. For me, linux is a no brainer. It sounds like you are doing more creative work, and for that my choice would always be a mac... but I guess windows does it ok too... (My brother is a musician and he won't use anything but macs to do his editing/production work, my sister and uncle are graphic artists, and my sister is a photographer as well... once again nothing but macs for them)
Re:Microsoft can't legally bundle GPL software (Score:3, Interesting)
For that matter, under your interpretation, how can *any* GPLed Windows app legally exist, excepting of course the case of the non-dependent app? If the author of a GPLed program links to a non-GPL system library, then distributes it, aren't they violating the GPL themselves?
I'm certainly no lawyer, but my reading of the clause in question definitely doesn't include that clause extending the GPL onto software not otherwise covered. If GPLed Windows apps can legally exist, then I can't see how MS distributing them becomes any different than the author distributing them - that's one of the nice things about the GPL. If party A *legally* distributes application A as package A, then party B can legally distribute package A, no matter what.
Re:Really bad article or what? (Score:1, Interesting)
I tried to switch back to windows with the notion of it being easier. Linux has its flaws but Windows has two hour updates with multiple restarts, 199 dollar price tag for an OS with multiple users so you dont have to run in administrator mode. Windows also features licensing agreements product activations unremoveable apps like Media Player, Messenger and Explorer. The updates require Internet Explorer. Using a 3rd party app to remove these bundled application breaks the Windows update. The only way I found to have good applications in Windows with out going through the pain of compiling CygWin was to pirate them Open Office doesnt compare to MS office, but MS office is equally matched by Gnumeric(no win32 binary) and AbiWord(also available in Win32)
Evolution and Gnumeric and being able to run effectively as a non root users were the key selling points to Linux for me even though hard ware issues still have a long way. Is psmouse.proto=imps so hard to add to the boot config to get touchpad tap interface to work?
I can testify that hard ware and intitially set up have been a pain with Linux and with Windows. And for most Windows there is not enough of a reason to switch to linux and re learn everything learned in linux and to fight old habitys. But Linux has a better community to offer support (fedorafaq.org) the fedora forums. Just my $ 0.02
As far as Installing Packages go most it could use more work although yum -y install packagename is pretty good to install many apps there needs to be a way of searching apps by category and listing descriptions in yum/apt-get/portage.
99% of my Windows apps have no Linux counterpart (Score:1, Interesting)
--Doug (who can't remember his ID and password right now)
Re:Linux is about choice..... (Score:2, Interesting)
Spoilage by quality (Score:2, Interesting)
I still use Windows 2000, but with Cygwin and Eclipse, I'm very close to making the transition to Debian (I personally like that distro best). On my internet server, which I actually abuse as a workstation to quickly compile some stuff, etc, I already run Debian and am very very happy with it.
Some key differences I noticed between Linux and Windows.
1. GUI vs shell
The windows shell sucks arse, no two ways about it. Hence the only proper way to control windows is using the GUI.
That way works by letting the user SEARCH for the solution in an INTUITIVE environment. You click on something, then look for an icon that seems right, and then you hope it'll work. If not, you go back and search some more. What you see is what you get.
Using a shell such as bash, you are bereft of your ability to intuitively search - you need to RESEARCH in a COUNTERINTUITIVE environment. However, once you get the knack of researching (what's the name of the program to count the words in a text document? how does it work?), you can very quickly achieve what you meant to by a few keystrokes. What you get is what you mean.
2. Granularity vs. Bloatware
Linux programs are tiny. There even is a program that merely outputs the letter "y" until killed. You need to combine these small programs using a programming language (in the shell's syntax, which is the problem most people have understanding!) into sequences of commands that will do what you meant. If you do it right, each of these programs will do its individual job very well.
Windows instead offers programs that offer to do fricken everything for you. Zip programs that encrypt files, word processors that play music, and email clients that spellcheck. But very often, they don't do these things very well, and worse, they sometimes the programs don't even do the things right they are supposed to do! So while you can always SEARCH for a solution by looking over your software's user interface, and switching through softwares trying to see which one does the desired job best (Photo Impact for fancy fonts, Picture Publisher for cleanup jobs, Open Canvas for drawing), chances are most of the bloatware features will go unnoticed. On the upside, you have everything in one package (even if it means that it might not work reliably).
3. Control vs. Intuition
Few people that use computers have ever heard the name "von Neumann" or understand what a "stream" is.
While using the Linux shell, you sooner or later end up manipulating streams of data, which is quite essentially what the computer itself does. It doesn't really matter what the data in its binary representation may look like, as long as the result will make sense.
With Windows, you almost exclusively manipulate opaque data objects - documents are documents, images are images, and mp3 files are mp3 files. The computer wears a 'mask', the GUI, that helps you understand what the individual streams are, but it also takes away a lot of control from you as to what you actually want to DO with the streams. The only way to spell check a Word 2000 document is to use the application's integrated spellchecker, or destroy the document by loading or pasting it into another application, spell check it there, and paste it back.
While Linux with its shells empower the user by relying on his ability to research, windows with its GUI relies on the user's intuition, forcing the programmer behind it all to make wild assumptions as to what the software needs and needs not to do when a certain button is klicked.
Linux is better to get the job donw, but Windows is more intuitive to use for people who don't know how