Report From "Get The Facts" 475
Richard W.M. Jones writes "Huw Lynes wrote an interesting
report from Microsoft's
"Get The Facts" show in London
(earlier
Slashdot story).
Along with the report he provides some
analysis of their apparent strategy, which
includes equating "Shared Source" with "Open Source"
and making out that Linux isn't free."
Spin Doctors (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft must be suffering if they are going at Open Source head on. I remember taking an advertising class once, and we studied the Coke/Pepsi Cola War. Essentially Coke was the biggest cola company on the block, until they acknowledged Pepsi as a competitor. By doing so, Coke gave Pepsi the kind of credit they needed to gain significant market share, and obtain lucrative endorsement celebrities, who may not have supported Pepsi if Coke had held the "one true cola" stance and simply ignored Pepsi.
The bottom line is that Microsoft is taking a page from Coke, and they are going to lose out bigtime in doing so, because their math is voodoo math, and they charge exorbitant license fees, so their cost of usage will always be much much higher than Open Source, no matter which spindoctor tries to make it look and taste differently than it is.
Part of the page commented out (Score:5, Interesting)
Like DG (Score:2, Interesting)
They are targeting UK 'near' conversions too... (Score:5, Interesting)
The truth is they are terrified. They've got wind of what's on its way over here in the UK.
Relax, don't panic. Wait and see what us Brits have got coming for MS over the next few months
Re:Unfair comparisons... of course they're going t (Score:4, Interesting)
Moreover, it exposes the degree to which Microsoft is engaging in "Not Invented Here" self-delusion for them to try and compare a DOS prompt (command.com and its standard utilities) to a real shell (bash, tcsh or zsh) and the standard set of utilities (the GNU file utils, find utils and text utils) that ship with most linux distributions.
Personally, I'd reverse the comparison and say the DOS prompt is "almost as good as a Unix shell."
To summarize... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't understand a few things about this. Why do people believe this type of thing when Microsoft brings absolutely *NO* proof of any of these claims? Can any of this be considered slander? They're trying to throw mud on Linux's image with no real proof.
And why did this guy sit through this entire "seminar" in the first place?
Re:"Linux training costs were 15% higher on averag (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I've seen companies spend about $0 on Windows training, so a 15% increase is still $0.
It's a worse analogy than that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:A bit misleading (Score:5, Interesting)
The more Microsoft acknowledges Open Source and tries to fight it, the bigger Open Source will become, because of the law of diffusion.
Re:Enterprise Level (Score:1, Interesting)
This has never happened once on our *nix machines yet it has happened on every single Windows box that has ever been palmed of on me.
Funny moment (Score:4, Interesting)
One of my colleagues who also went to the Edinburgh event was talking to one of the speakers there (one of the Nick's from Microsoft I believe) and I Microsoft guy admitted his niece had thousands of viruses on her machine last time he checked it!
I wish I could confirm it, but I don't see he has any reason to lie
Linux users could have done a better job (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Unfair comparisons... of course they're going t (Score:5, Interesting)
Then you would, IMHO, be lying. The DOS prompt has never been even close to a match to a proper Unix shell. Even running bash with the full gnu toolchain in a Windows XP cmd.exe prompt (thankyou cygwin) is still much worse than using the real thing (even their mouse selection stuff is retarded. OK they cannot have X's nice selection style cut'n'paste, but at least make the default selection tool line oriented, rather than block (I cannot remember even once needing the kind of selection you get in cmd.exe, if your text is not neatly on one line)).
Re:Funny moment (Score:4, Interesting)
He went on with the 'industry problem' lie^Hne to reassure us we were all buddies together and all in the same boat, then asked for anyone who trusted their computer to put their hand up (expecting nobody after the 'friendly' subliminals he just slipped us). Both me (FreeBSD user) and my collegue (linux user and security researcher) put our hands up. Mr Okin, bless him, acknowledged our hands but neglected to ask which version of 'windows' we ran
Most important Quote from the Forrester report (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Part of the page commented out (Score:5, Interesting)
A 2002 Microsoft-sponsored study of total costs of ownership over five years for working corporate infrastructure in North America shows that lower staffing expenses are a large part of an 11-22% cost advantage for Windows.
Microsoft-sponsored benchmarks prove that multiple Windows Web servers perform better than a Linux mainframe acting as a Web server consolidator. An independent review by Meta verified the integrity of the results.
(emphasis mine)
Apparently the PR slamming they're taking for those studies made them (at least temporarily) remove them from the site...
Well, it is a sales pitch... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm kind of heartened by it, as a matter of fact.
What this shows, more than anything, is that Microsoft clearly doesn't understand the enterprise market. What they fail to recognize is this:
Microsoft just doesn't get it. Corporations could care less about streaming video and DirectX. And they aren't fooled by marketing hype - Microsoft can say all they want about "trustworthy computing", but sysadmins know better.
Re:Well, it isn't (Score:3, Interesting)
They're also currently using the 'Linux sysadmins are more expensive than Windows sysadmins' argument to promote Windows - however that's only going to have one effect - the more clueful of the Windows sysadmins will learn Linux skills in order to get paid more.
This eventually will mean there's no shortage in Linux sysadmins which will be a plus point for Linux but on the downside people will be earning less.
Therefore I think it's important that all Linux sysadmins who are knowledgeable to take this opportunity to improve their skills and be recognised as knowledgeable.
Therefore if you're in the UK I promote the UKUUG conference [ukuug.org] in my sig
This wasn't going to be an ad, then I realised it fitted so perfectly into my reply!
Re:Linux is not free in a corporate environment (Score:4, Interesting)
The pro-Windows camp likes to bring up the fact that you need educated system administrators to run a Unix shop, implying that you don't need skilled people to run a Windows shop, all the while neglecting to mention what happens if you place your Windows servers in the hands of an untrained system administrator.
The also like to rag on the command line, neglecting to mention that it enables Unix people to automate complex tasks and neglecting to mention that Windows admins are *also* tied to the command line, albeit a crappier one since You Should Be Using the GUI.
One thing I rarely hear the pro Windows crowd talk about is how many machines the average system administrator can manage. In my experience the number is far higher for Unix systems than it is for Windows.
Re:"Linux isnt free?" (Score:3, Interesting)
UK Advertising Standard Authority (Score:4, Interesting)
The CAP Code (Ed 11) : GENERAL RULES
SUBSTANTIATION
3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.
Relevant evidence should be sent without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP. The adequacy of evidence will be judged on whether it supports both the detailed claims and the overall impression created by the marketing communication. The full name and geographical business address of marketers should be provided without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP.
3.2 If there is a significant division of informed opinion about any claims made in a marketing communication they should not be portrayed as generally agreed.
3.3 Claims for the content of non-fiction books, tapes, videos and the like that have not been independently substantiated should not exaggerate the value, accuracy, scientific validity or practical usefulness of the product.
3.4 Obvious untruths or exaggerations that are unlikely to mislead and incidental minor errors and unorthodox spellings are all allowed provided they do not affect the accuracy or perception of the marketing communication in any material way.
http://www.asa.org.uk/index.asp
Re:Unfair comparisons... of course they're going t (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Free Software (Score:5, Interesting)
Then IE never comes back and Firefox is nice and snappy.
Here's one (Score:3, Interesting)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3798393.s
Wimbledon switching to Linux
Re:Linux is not free in a corporate environment (Score:3, Interesting)
Installation and management of unix applications can typically be done from the command line, and many applications that normally use a GUI can at least perform some tasks from the command line. This allows not only operating-system-related tasks to be automated, but also allows application-level tasks to be automated.
I know that *some* applications on Windows behave like this too, but is it the norm (I really don't know)?
Response to security concerns of Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
employees claiming some security failures with
Linux vs Windows.
For the couple of samples I saw, it seems like they
have been very selective about what information
they show. The latest version of Windows Server 2003
vs Fedora Core.
They also plot the number of vulnerabilities
independently of the risk, the impact, or the fact
that some of the security updates are lumped together. Then there is a section on viruses,
they list from some Virus web site about 30
Linux viruses. Never seen a single one of them
in a machine of mine or a server of mine in the
last 12 years.
I would like to know if there are good articulate
responses to those claims. I have been out of the
security loop for a long time, and my constrast
against the Microsoft claims was limited to a few
bits of my own experience.
Marc Cox from Red Hat is quoted by the report,
has he written anything on the subject?
Miguel.
Re:Response to security concerns of Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
I know of a few projects to produce 'articulate
responses' to MS's claims, not for discussion on a public site yet though
Of course privately...
Re:"Linux training costs were 15% higher on averag (Score:2, Interesting)
But here I think by training costs they mean it is less expensive to train a Windows 2000 user on Windows XP than it would be to train the same user on a linux distro. At least initially. Microsoft, as usual, is probably trying to spin numbers in their favor. And what company wouldn't? It's all about PR.
When talking about training a linux user how to use new linux versions or different distros versus different windows versions, I agree with your argument. Microsoft, however, is probably not talking about that.
More fuel for the fire... (Score:2, Interesting)
Can anyone figure out how they got these figures?
The really sad part... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Spin Doctors (Score:3, Interesting)
We had a resident expert there who was paid god-knows-how-much and was referred to as the "resident guru" because he was the only person who knew all of the obscure things related to the API. Pretty much every programmer that I worked with had to turn to him at least once a week to find the obscure way to do a particular thing, or why a certain API element wasn't working as advertized.
P.S. - to the parent.... you had to mention the Developers song, didn't you? Aargh, now it's going to be stuck in my head until I play it....
Re:Enterprise Level (Score:3, Interesting)
Because, of course, no corporation which can consider millions of dollars on licensing fees 'cheap' would be willing to spend a paltry few extra hundred thousand a year to get administrators with more brainpower and a genunie dedication to the technology which they use, versus having gotten into computers 'for the money' as most MS-only types do.
Enterprise development is also, thus far, cheaper on Microsoft platforms. These platforms have all the tools to develop large systems quickly and effectively. Few organisations are writing their enterprise systems in C anymore! In this respect Java is providing a lifeline to Linux. An equally important consideration is the available of enterprise platforms off the shelf, most of which support *nix (but not Linux) or Windows platforms.
Erm, last time I checked, there were more programming languages available for Linux than for Windows, although to be fair, Visual Basic and Visual C++ provide very easy-to-use IDEs, unless,of course, your interest is in writing business-critical applications; Visual Anything is much more suited to finding the right shade of beige for your buttons. Serious business tasks shouldn't even require a GUI; they should just get the job done, and be easy to fix if they break.
These are not the hallmarks of a Microsoft solution.
The real biggies in productivity are avoiding downtime, having the right applications for the job (i.e. productivity applications), and having the right skills to use the application. While workstation failures are irritating (and, frankly, Linux has at most a 10% lead in stability in that environment), network outages (not an OS consideration) and server failures are where the problems lie.
You are obviously talking out of your arse here, and have switched from the server to the desktop, where we all agree Windows is generally the better choice, especially for calendaring. However, software-related workstation failures are a problem, especially if they kill your ability to work for the day, or if they expose confidendial data to the outside world through security holes. When a single virus can kill your entire network *and* take out your nicely integrated Calendar/Email solution, it's time to find another vendor.
Finally, in terms of productivity applications and available skills and/or training, Linux can't touch Windows. They are literally hundreds or applications for every purpose out there that are smooth and polished and do what a business wants. More importantly, you'll easily find staff that are experienced with that package, and that's a huge cost saving.
No, these applications aren't smooth and polished; they're generalized. That's how shrinkwrap software works; you spend less on the software than you would for a custom-written application, but you must accept that said application will not be perfectly tailored to your needs. For some things, like word processing, this is fine, but for critical pieces of your business, this is not.
So yes, Linux is free and cheap and all that, and has tons of applications, and can do amazing stuff. But it doesn't do it out of the box, few people know the desktop environment or the applications, and it takes a less common skillset to configure, administer, maintain and develop in a Linux environment. All of which push up the long term TCO, and allow you to make a very valid cost comparison with Windows.
Yes, but only if you ignore Windows' shortcomings in these areas as well, including things like security, yearly hardware and software upgrade costs, etc. You also have to make the assumption that all of your employees have had their brains replaced with pieces of Silly-Putty, as anyone with more than ten functioning neurons,
Re:Unfair comparisons... of course they're going t (Score:3, Interesting)
But if you know of any cmd.exe replacements, that don't require me to either log in through ssh or run the terminal under X (I run a root-less X server, but I would rather not have it involved in my terminals, since it seems slightly less stable than the native terminals (mostly when remote machines crash or hang and such)), I would be glad to hear about it.