Ask the Egyptian Installfest Organizers 281
The Linux-Egypt group recently held an amazingly successful installfest. This event was a milestone both for Linux installfests in general (was it the largest one ever held?) and for Linux in the Arabic world. Alaa Abd El Fatah, one of the organizers, has offered to answer your questions with help from other Linux-Egypt members. We'll post their answers to 10 or 12 of the highest-moderated questions as soon as we get them back.
Beowulf Look Out (Score:3, Funny)
Which one is now more common in Egypt... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Which one is now more common in Egypt... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Most Common OS (Score:2)
My guess is Windows.
English or Arabic (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:English or Arabic (Score:4, Funny)
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2, Informative)
Heeeee-Heeeee
Seriously though, I think you will find internationalisation in Linux is far more advanced than in Windoze, and I would point out that a fair proportion of the Egyptian population are Jewish, the Arabs are a different race to the native Egyptians, and there are others, each with their own dialects and preferences, and a lot also speak English, certainly for business use, which may have im
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm Swedish. I live in Sweden. I prefer to use all software in English, because:
Re:English or Arabic (Score:3, Interesting)
OT: Swedish English (Score:4, Informative)
I am an English-speaker living in Sweden. I can tell you it's a combination of:
Of course, you can't discount the fact that they spend their whole education studying it. However, as an English-speaker trying to learn Swedish, I find it intensely annoying that Swedes refuse to speak Swedish to you if they know you speak English.
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2)
Well, maybe you could have volunteered to write that utility?
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2)
I can just about program in C on Linux, or small embedded systems, or anywhere else that supports a reasonably simple set of system calls or direct hardware access, but comprehending the gigantic mess known as Windoze is well beyond me. One of the difficulties is the lack of documentation......
But, maybe, if I get seriously back into prog
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2)
Re:English or Arabic (Score:2)
I guess t
Motives for switching (Score:5, Interesting)
History of Egypt motivation to switching to Linux (Score:5, Informative)
In the 90s, Microsoft turned a blind eye to piracy. They simply did not care what happens in the Arab world (software wise). They ignored that market. Arabization of products normally followed a delayed schedule, with the latest product being not in Arabic. When Windows 3.x came out, there was a competing Arabization by Al Alamiah, a Kuwaiti company. The lead architect (cant' remember his name, but either Lebanese or Syrian) there was enticed into leaving Al Alamiah and join Microsoft. There was a brief law suit then. In the end Microsoft was dominant in the Arabization area. Product release in Arabic still lagged behind English and other Western languages.
Then, in the mid 90s, Microsoft started to enforce licenses on businesses. In Egypt, a newly formed Shortet El Mosanafat El Faneyya (literally: Artistic Products Police, more like: "Intellectual Property Police") started raiding large, medium and small businesses to check if their software was licensed. They specifically looked for certain products and ignored others (e.g. Microsoft stuff, AutoCAD in Engineering firms, Oracle, but not Novel [if I remember correctly], nor Apple).
Rumor at the time had it that some rich and powerful people (ruling elite) made a cut with Microsoft in all this.
Remember that the US Dollar was around 3.4 Egyptian pound at the time. Making legal software very costly for the small business.
This scared small businesses, and some relatives I know migrated from Microsoft Windows and Fox Pro applications to Linux and SQL-Ledger for example. There was so much resentment for Microsoft at the time for doing this, and the powers who enforced it.
Now, the exchange rate is about 6.5 Egyptian Pounds to 1 US Dollar, so it has gotten even worse (more prohibitive cost of Microsoft software).
However, in the internet land, another development was taking place around the turn of the Millenium. Many developers for the internet knew nothing but Microsoft, so they used its technologies to develop web sites (ASP, MS SQL, NT/2000/XP,
This means that people at home or in offices who do not have Windows and IE will not be able to interact properly with web sites. Al Jazeera web site for example shows only the middle pane in FireFox, and the side menus are only visible under IE.
Arabs are around 300 million, is supposed to be the 5th most widely spoken language in the world. For a company to gain a monopoly on an entire culture is simply wrong and unacceptable, but it did happen.
the bright side is that Linux is making some inroads. But there are obstacles (e.g. Arabic web sites which are IE centric, as above).
Yes, boycott of American products may have played a role since 2000 (with the Palestinian uprising, then the post-Sept 11 events). But more pragmatic factors were there far before any of this came into play, and Microsoft was (and still is) not liked by many (just like the rest of us Open Source advocates in the West do not like thm either).
Re:Motives for switching (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a widespread perception in the west that the Arab world is backwards in terms of technological knowhow, and in education in general. How do you, as a geek in Egypt, perceive this? Do you feel that the free software movement can help nations like Egypt achieve the sort of tech industry that nations like Israel have by increasing exposure to computers for the average person?
Re:Motives for switching (Score:3, Informative)
There is a widespread perception in the west that the Arab world is backwards in terms of technological knowhow
About 1000 years ago the Arabs and Persians were leading the way intellectually (inventing the concept of zero, etc.) while European Christian nations were mired firmly in the Dark Ages under a supposed theocracy.
the competition (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, what is the most widely used distro in that part of the world?
Re:the competition (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:the competition (Score:2)
Re:the competition (Score:2)
Use of Windows as a percentage is higher than you would expect.
For the reasons why this is so, check my earlier post here [slashdot.org].
Politics, religion and software (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Politics, religion and software (Score:3)
In the Arab world, is there a sense of obligation to patronize American software companies since the U.S. military has sacrificed hundreds of troops' lives and the government has spent billions of dollars in liberating tens of millions of Muslims enabling two Islamic nations (Afghanistan and Iraq) to progress toward peaceful and productive societies and eventually sprouting software industries of their own?
A little off-topic, but, as Muslims who are no doubt grateful for the p
Re:Politics, religion and software (Score:2)
Right now the prevailing perception in the arab world is that we are occupiers. In other words the US is to Iraq what israel is to palestine.
Re:Politics, religion and software (Score:2)
Informed logic should lead Arabs to have profound gratitude for the Western military actions in the Middle East. Instead, they're foaming at the mouth more than ever. The causes of their insanity run deep [slashdot.org] (linked JE and article may not apply
Popular Culture (Score:5, Interesting)
Obstacles? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Obstacles? (Score:2)
Native language support (Score:5, Interesting)
9-pin printers (Score:2)
International relations (Score:3, Interesting)
However, the history of the world, and especially North Africa/Middle East is full of wars and territorial animosities. Without trying to peg you as one who would necessarily hold these beliefs, but there are many in Egypt who would like nothing more than to have little to do with America and its allies. Do you think Linux has a calming effect on such feelings? Does it provide a means of exposing those who would not normally have exposure to such things a side of America and its allies that is not simply warmongering and anti-Egyptian?
I'm not asking if Linux is going to come with a worldpeace.pl script or anything. I'm just curious as to the ability of Linux to provide a favorable view of Western society to your Egyptian Linux installbase.
Re:International relations (Score:4, Insightful)
really? i thought they did it because it was cheap
Re:International relations (Score:2)
Re:International relations (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Do you like the GPL? (Score:4, Funny)
Linus Torvalds (CA)
Oh yeah, great example of American technology right there...
Hear here folks: the father of Linux is now American and, before you know it, he'll have created Linux when he was a student at Berkeley!
Re:International relations (Score:2, Insightful)
1) I don't think many people do make a "concious decision" to blah blah blah.
2) Finns are Europeans.
3) South Americans are Americans.
Re:International relations (Score:2, Informative)
While there may be some in Egypt who don't want anything to do with the USA, their government sure likes us! The US gives Egypt around two billion dollars a year in economic and military aid.
Re:It would be great (Score:2)
Positive contribution? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hardware (Score:5, Interesting)
In other words, how much hardware commonly available on the Egyptian market is unsupported by Linux?
Distro? (Score:5, Interesting)
-m
More particularly, (Score:5, Interesting)
Dlugar
Re:More particularly, (Score:2)
I made this a question on its own here [slashdot.org].
Hope the mods make it more visible
Do you have public libraries...? (Score:2, Interesting)
Is Perl the favourite language (Score:2, Funny)
The camel book [linux-mag.com]
Net access shop (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been recently to Egipt and couldn't help noticing the large number of shops that offer net access for a small (European standards) fee. Do these shops usually run Linux or Windows?
I also know the government has it's troubles raising money to put computers in your administrative structure. Is the government setting up Windows (paying the required licences) or Linux?
I would like to congratulate you on your initiative, as it may contribute to reduce the electronic divide.
Re:Net access shop (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, they are everywhere, because many people do not have computers at home.
They are almost exclusively Windows (did anyone here about a net cafe using Linux in Egypt?)
The reason is that is what people are used to, and that is what supports Arabic the most.
If they install Linux, then Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger and ICQ will not be able to do voice and video for example.
I would like to hear the answer on what the government is doing too.
How easy was it to implement language support? (Score:2, Interesting)
Mirror Here (Score:3, Informative)
Women. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Women. (Score:4, Funny)
I'd think you'd find Jimmy Hoffa in a chicken costume before you'd find two women to rub together at such a geekfest.
Re:Women. (Score:3, Funny)
Yes, it will involve considerable searching. But when you find two women at such a geekfest that will let you rub them together, it'll be worth it.
Re:Women. (Score:3, Informative)
Here are FOUR more. [manalaa.net]
I guess I will have to explain what "woman" means to
Re:Women. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Women. (Score:4, Informative)
how many females are involved with the open source crowd, and in the IT industry in general, in Egypt?
I can answer that paritally at least.
There are as many women as men (if not more) in Egypt in the IT industry.
I know, because when I worked in Egypt back in the 80s, the IT department I was in had more females than males, from data entry to programming to management. About the only place that did not have females was the mainframe operations (requiring late shifts and such).
This was a governmental organization, and they had more perks for women than men (nice vacation on giving birth, right to go back to same or similar position, leave early to nurse the baby, take unpaid leave to care for kids, ...etc.)
Even in the private software development sector, their seem to be more women than men (I know because my wife worked at such a place, and that is again back in the 80s).
In university, you see about a 50/50 gender split in computer science, if not more women.
Yeah, this info is a bit dated, but at least provides some historical data. Don't think it has changed much since.
Re:Women. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Women. (Score:2)
Friendliness (Score:3, Interesting)
I ask, because most americans think its best to call people 'newbies' and shout 'RTFM' if they ever have a question.
Re:Friendliness (Score:2)
Compare this with the friendly, happy attitude of those who help you though problems with proprietry products [techcomedy.com]...
Let's take a sample opinion from somebody who will help you with a Windows application:
Pre-install questions or misconceptions (Score:5, Interesting)
LTSP question... (Score:3, Interesting)
Please, no more Arabic questions (Score:3, Funny)
my question (Score:3, Interesting)
American nerds want to know... (Score:5, Funny)
What do Egyptian nerds wear? Black horn-rimmed kaffiyehs? And do you wear Star Trek robes, or wear the shirts underneath regular robes and stick a little Star Fleet pin on your lapel? Do robes *have* lapels? How do you say "bite my shiny metal ass" in Egyptian? What's the ancient heiroglyph for "FR15T P05T!?" How awesome would it be if you took that cord that holds your kaffiyeh on your head and modded it with EL wire? Do Egyptian nerds survive off of Cheetos and Mountain Dew, or is it more like big mouthfuls of qat and Pyramid Dew? When you're playing Tomb Raider what do you say - "Nice rack!" or "Dude! You can totally see my house in this level!" What kind of beer do Egyptian nerds drink? Do chicks dig Egyptian nerds, or are you all in the same boat as us? Do you guys freak out over Japanese chicks and pocky? How do you keep all the fucking sand out of your case mods? Do you have "Type-R" camels? Do you have low-rider camels with neon on their nuts? Do you guys know the Icy Hot Stuntaz? Do hot Egyptian girls come to LAN parties? Are you as excited about Half-Life 2 as we are?
(And I'm only slightly kidding about these. We'll learn more about each other by talking like nerds than we will by pretending to be politians...)
Re:American nerds want to know... (Score:4, Informative)
I know you are joking, but here are some answers anyway.
What do Egyptian nerds wear? Black horn-rimmed kaffiyehs?
Most Egyptians wear western style clothes. Hollywood's stereotype of pyramids, desert, turbans, and camels not withstanding.
What's the ancient heiroglyph for "FR15T P05T!?"
By taking the English geekspeak letters FR15T P05T!? and translating them into the hieroglyph equivalent. We got a French guy called Champollion to help us there.
Seriously, Egypt now speaks Arabic. Hieroglyphs have been out of general use for about 22 centuries or so.
Do Egyptian nerds survive off of Cheetos and Mountain Dew, or is it more like big mouthfuls of qat and Pyramid Dew?
Qat is not consumed in Egypt. It is almost exclusively a Yemeni thing. Confused Geography again?
Is Pyramid Dew a new thing there that I missed?
What kind of beer do Egyptian nerds drink?
Most would not drink beer, because most do not consume alcohol. However, there is Fayrouz and all its flavors (non alcoholic beer like beverage, with many flavors).
How do you keep all the fucking sand out of your case mods?
By not living in the desert to begin with. That is why we have cities!
Do you have "Type-R" camels? Do you have low-rider camels with neon on their nuts?
Repeat after me: Camels are there only for retired American tourists who visit the Pyramids. Oh, and they are made into shish kebab as well!Not very common, but those who tried it say it is good.
|\|0, r3411y... (Score:2)
And if people practice it (except for irony), do they get their keyboards cut off?
Please?
Re:American nerds want to know... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes I am, but not living there for quite a few years.
> That's something that's always interested me about the various Arab lands. It seems like they're always 100% traditional clothing or 100% western. I've always wondered what the reality was vs. what's usually seen on the news.
Normally it is on a country per country case by case thing, so there is huge variations. For example, in Egypt most people in the cities would wear western clothes. Most of the folks in the villa
Linux installations on laptops, notebooks and PDAs (Score:4, Interesting)
What kind of computers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What kind of computers? (Score:2)
Here, you have companies leasing things for 2 or 3 years and then selling it. You can get good usable Pentium III computers for a very good price, and they make very nice servers or second machines. Almost every computer shop here (Ontario) has some stock of these.
In Egypt, leasing is not a common business practice. Also, companies (and individuals) hold on to the PC until it is virtually unusable, thi
What is the killer app in Egypt? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bloodthirsty? (Score:2)
Re:Bloodthirsty? (Score:2)
That's true, however how many Egyptians stand up and say "it's wrong to kill Jews"? Not many. In fact, anytime someone (like me) tries to condemn suicide bombers and their ilk, the usual apologetic answer is to claim Israelis deserve to be butchered like animals.
Contrast that with the example you cited of MPs abusing prisoners in Iraq. Pretty much everyone, from the top down, in America wants those goons in prison, or
Re:Bloodthirsty? (Score:2)
Yeah, well, that's really the problem, isn't it?
Or was that a Freudian slip, and you meant to write "who deplores the taking of innocent lives"? If so, why don't you try this thought experiment, Abdul: when you hear that someone has killed a mother and her four children as they drove down the road, what is your initial response? What about when you find out they were Jewish settlers, living in Gaza? Does this change your outlook on the crime?
I can safely say
Re:Don't be an ass (Score:2)
As for whether standing up in the cafe can change anything or not, yes, it can. Sure, he might be executed, even tortured. But the West is free today because men in the past dared to do that exact
Do you watch Stargate SG-1? (Score:3, Funny)
Computers in Egypt? (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux is free. What about the hardware? (Score:5, Interesting)
Any chance of a local distro? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, being a Brazilian company and having a heavily localized distro has helped them get a strong hold in the market here, but it works twofold, as it also helped spread linux among people and business that would not try a non-localized distro.
Any company in Egypt pursuing this marked opportunity currently? Or you think it would not work there (and if so, why?)
Thanks!
Distros (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Distros (Score:2)
For instance, I know that in India, the magazine PC Quest [pcquest.com] was initially responsible for making Linux popular - they used to distribute Linux CDs (started out with Slackware and then moved on to Redhat) free with their magazines, and this helped spread the word
And how big a role do LUGs really play in actually making the general public (schools, businesses and the common user) aware of L
Complexity of RTL and Hebrew / Arabic Development. (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks
Newbie users, expectations and frustration... (Score:3, Interesting)
Pictures of naive users who brings their Windows PCs in to have everything on their harddrives wiped out and replaced with a system that will solve all their problems leaps to my mind.
Without some basic training on how to use a Linux system, pointers to good documentation and reasonable expectations, they will likely just get a frustrating experience and get disgruntled, telling everybody else what a terrible system Linux is and have somebody reinstall Windows.
What measures did you take to avoid this situation on your installfests and do you have any plans on how to follow up on the installfest with some more events that can help these newbie users on their way? Also, do you have any recommendations for other LUGs arranging installfests?
Installfest, but on to what? (Score:2)
IIRC, the goal of the installfest is to load Linux on to as many computers as possible, right?
So...what was Linux installed on to, for the most part?
Let's hear about the hardware. What was an average machine at the installfest? Anything really stand out? Also, what was on the HD that you installed to? Blank HD, or other OS? What was most common?
Weaselmancer
Heat issues (Score:2, Interesting)
I had enough problems last summer with 2 pc's in a room!
Question (Score:2, Informative)
Trying to compare it to my own country.
Can you tell us what is the access cost to the technology??
I mean:
How much do you pay for a computer?
How much do you pay for home internet access? (And what kinds of access can you get)
What is the cost of an hour in an Internet Coffe Bar?
What is the average salary of a normal guy in a normal job? (doesn't have to be IT related)
Thanks! And keep up with the great
Which distributions support Arabic the most? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean, programmers and techies will be fiddling with English apps most of the time, and only use arabic for the odd letter, or web site. What I mean is someone who does most of his work in Arabic (document editing, browsing, spreadsheets,
I have tried Red Hat some time back (I think 7.2?) and Konquerer would work well displaying Arabic web pages correctly, but no other apps would work well.
My current Mandrake 9.1 is a pain to setup Arabic to work (in KDE control panel), and even then, it does not work in all apps.
Knoppix from Sept 2003 is far far better. You can switch to arabic by clicking the little flag icon on the bottom right of the screen, and many apps (cant remember which, probably Open Office?) can accept Arabic letters.
Any one used Mandrake 10 CE or Final with Arabic? How is it?
Can the non-CD distros emulate Knoppix in this regard?
Re:It's X and KDE, not the distro. (Score:2)
But the point is: most people do not want to download source, compile it, and install/configure it.
Therefore, it has to be on the distro that you got from the installfest, or from a friend.
The vast majority there are people with dialup connections, and are billed per minute! Downloading large apps (or even ISOs) is very tedious and expensive (not to mention it ties up the phone line too).
So, the question is which distro works out of the box in Arabic with the most apps working in Arabic, and wit
The distro question ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Internationally speaking, what about distros that contain software that's illegal to have like encryption in China or deCSS in the US? Do you suggest rolling your own distro from say debian or gentoo?
Fundamental Islamic groups vs. open communication (Score:2)
I am assuming that people in closed societies would find the idea of open and frank communication with other cultures (implied by the use of an internet ready device) danagerous for their agenda. Is this the case, or are my assumptions faulty?
What are the internal politics like? (Score:3)
So, I followed the links to the website, and read a large number of the postings in the forum there. I don't suppose I should have been surprised at the infighting that seemed to be going on there - the noisy minorities usually dominate the forums, worldwide - but I was. What is the political climate inside the Egyptian open source world? Is it very highly factionalized?
Freedom of Speech, Web Access? (Score:2)
I'm sure you can think of other stuff that we might want to know
Re:N/S (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:N/S (Score:2)
Re:N/S (Score:2)
Re:Install and Donate.... (Score:2)
Re:Install and Donate.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Israel from day one did not bulldoze Palestinian houses and farm land. They did this in retaliation to homocidal maniacs who tell ignorant people that they will go to heaven if they kill a bunch of Jews. Killing based on religious or ethnic traits is simply genocide.
Yes Israel has killed more Palestinians than the Palestini
Re:Install and Donate.... (Score:2)
Re:Install and Donate.... (Score:2)
The problem with the Middle East today is that they practice Islam the way people practiced Christianity in 1000 AD and they have no respect for life, not ev