Element Computer: ION Linux on Linux Hardware 274
JigSaw writes "Well known Lycoris person Jason Spisak left the company to join Element Computer, a new hardware company which now strives to offer the Apple experience on PCs: they sell Linux-certified modern hardware with their own flavor of Debian, ION Linux. ION is a desktop distro and it is developed specifically to work perfectly with the accompanied hardware. Other highlights include usage support (as opposed to installation-only support other distros provide) and system upgrades specific to the exact hardware the user runs. The KDE-based distro will only sell with their hardware as Mike Hjorleifsson says in his interview." (The company was previously mentioned on Slashdot.)
Finally... (Score:2)
What a match! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What a match! (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, isn't this what Dell, HP, etc do? Each machine that these companies sell have their slightly modified version of Windows (mostly drivers and stuff) so that you don't need configure Windows to run on the machine.
So, yeah, you could run vanilla windows on an HP machine, but you'd have to install some drivers. Similarly, you could install Debian on a Element Computer box, but you'd have to install some drivers.
Re:What a match! (Score:2)
Re:What a match! (Score:2)
The Windows version you get from Dell also works(at least, the serial number would) on an HP.
no it wouldn't (Score:2)
Understand? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mac OSX is specifically targetted for the MAC.
So: When MAC OSX installs, it's binaries are optimized for the G4 architecture.
This is a bit more awkward for the PC. Although Intel and AMD share the same core instruction set, there are of course differences. Others like Transmeta are completely different.
This presents a problem for M$ as they like to keep things i386 borg'd!
And therin lies the power of Linux and Open source in general. If you compile source code for the specific t
This could work if the price is right (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2, Funny)
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:3, Insightful)
Does Dell, Toshiba, IBM, HP/Compaq, or Microsoft support software they don't ship?
You can install anything you want...they just do not support that additional software.
Over 800 p
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
You can use Fink for APT packages, but to be perfectly honest, I'm trying to figure out how to get that mess off my hard drive. It's completely unnatural to the Mac environment. All the OS software I use is either from OpenDarwin's WebDAV [opendarwin.org] server, or from Mac apps that integrate Open Source software (e.g. KHTML -> Safari, LAME -> MP3 Encoder, CDRecord -> ToastCD, VideoLAN, etc.).
Mac apps are usually installed by drag
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
As I said, draconian. Voiding a warranty over "unapproved" software is tantamount to not replacing a broken CD player because the last disk it played was published by a non-RIAA label. In other words, it defeats the point of the device.
If all I wanted was the programs provided by the company I bought it from, I'd buy a pocket organizer or an Audrey.
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
Obviously this isn't for anyone who is already comfortable running Linux distros. If you can do that successfully, would you really need support? When was the last time you contacted a company for software support?
Clearly this isn't for you (or me). That doesn't make it useless.
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
And it's not like Microsoft won't help you fix a video driver or startup problem if you install AOL. According the article, ION will.
Get it?
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:2)
For free? I want to know how many of you actually call software vendors when the shit breaks. Last time I checked, they charge you big time for phone support. Or maybe it's because I am usually calling them on behalf of a business. Do home users generally get free support with Microsoft products?
-matthew
Re:This could work if the price is right (Score:3, Informative)
Apple experience? (Score:4, Funny)
They sell PCs with single-button mice, without floppy drives, at 3 times the price?
Ha!!! (Score:2)
Cheers!
Re:Ha!!! (Score:2)
#1. Apple's hardware is actually unique, it isn't whitebox PC's trying to be unique. Apple produces the unique units and charges for them.
#2. Apple's OS (in this case OS is defined as complete default install, not BSD underpinnings) is actually unique, it isn't linux with a couple bolt on additions trying to be unique. Apple produces the unique OS and charges for it.
-- I can see them getting awa
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2, Insightful)
Floppys suck - obsolete capacity, obsolete reliability.
I've thrown all of my floppy disks away. None of my home-built machines have a floppy drive. I haven't bought software on floppy in about 8 years.
If I need to boot from another device, I'll boot via CD-ROM. If I need to move a small file: email. If I need to store a lot of files: CD-RW.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that you want dual floppy drives, one 3.5" and one 5.25".
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
Ever try to email a document to Kinkos? Since I am looking for work, I keep a floppy with my resume on it where ever I go.
I also use them as boot disks when working on older computers.
There also more durable then CD's. I can frop a floppy, and not worry about scratches.
The floppy will go away, just need a few more years.
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2, Interesting)
I never go anywhere without them. They are faster, more reliable, and have higher storage capacity.
They aren't expensive either..
Their life expectancies are also waay higher than floppies. Oh, and lets not forget that they don't get corrupted every time your two year old puts a fridge magnet close to it.
And it's also dead easy to boot from them on today's machines..
Really, floppies should've died a long time ago.
Thanks apple!
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2, Funny)
How many ironclad excuses are there for missing homework assignments???
Student: "Um... sorry. My floppy disintegrated."
Teacher: "That's okay. It happens to all of us."
I will mourn the passing of this vital source of excuses. Soon I'm going to have to buy a dog. (or a Windows box!)
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
I guess my nine month old computer is just too damned old. I need to get with the program and buy new hardware much more often that that.
I really wish it would though. It's a great replacement for floppy once you get the manufacturers agreed on a mass storage standard (some still don't). But how soon until USB 2.0 is obsolete? On my "old" system I still have to specifically enable "legacy" USB, otherwise known as 1.1. That's just silly.
Floppi
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
1) Type an invoice.
2) Type a receipt.
3) Count all the money you have.
They all fit comfortably in a floppy. The rest goes to the entertainment department which requires a CD. But that's not too important.
Floppies do suck! (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple made considerations to eliminate the floppy, PC makers have not. PCs still don't have standardized boot protocols for stuff like USB or FireWire, so they NEED floppies to make stuff like BIOS flashes easy to use.
The best thing about adminning on a platform with no floppy? Never having to tell anyone that their disk ate their work.
Re:Apple experience? (Score:3, Insightful)
* Ease of software installation
* Ease of dependency management
* Information consolidation (e.g. iTunes, Sherlock)
* Advanced rendering APIs (Quartz PDF renderer)
* Filesystem integration (double click on a DMG or ISO and it's automatical
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
* Ease of software installation
* Ease of dependency management
As for this point, it wouldnt take long to implement it through kde, i could easily add it to my right click contectual menu and without putting mount in the users right (i would ask for an admin password). How is it done on the mac? Is the mounting of isos separated from the regular mount
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
Wow, you must have never heard of debian and apt-get!
You'll have to explain to me how that's easier than dragging the application out of the DMG file into the Applications folder.
Filesystem integration?
Kde and gnome can be configured to do automounting (heck with the proper not-hard-to-find app, windows does this)!
* AKAImBatman double-clicks on ISO file on KDE desktop.
"Select a program from the list below"
Sorry, Apple's still got it.
Information Consoli
Re:Apple experience? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's much easier. You don't need to know where to get the application, you don't need to go download the DMG file. Everything done for you, just type "apt-get install mozilla" and wait. Local mirrors of everything for added speed.
In addition, it takes care of dependencies (although I acknowledge that the Apple mechanism of "One-file-for-the-app" is a good alternate solution to this a lot of the time), and allows you to go and upgrade any or all installed applications without having to remember where you got it, go and find it, download it again etc etc.
Even further, you can do full searches of available applications using apt-cache, allowing you to quickly and easily locate, for example, and mp3 player or a video encoder immediately available for installation.
APT really is very very good. All kudos to Apple for many of their usability features, but in this one area Debians devotion to Free software has given it leverage which has proven difficult for other operating systems to match, a supply of almost all the software you'll ever need on your system, right here, right now.
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
- know the magic command line incatation to install the app. This includes know its exact name.
- watch while hundreds of lines of scary text scroll by.
- if there's a mysterious error, ask a sysadmin to debug it.
- wonder where the application installed, or how to run it.
Me, I know the incantations for the app's I used most, and
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
-- Semi-dummy mode on --
Ok. So I see my desktop. Where do I type this? I have to launch "Terminal"? What's terminal? Umm... okay, I found it with a search. I've opened the terminal. I want FireFox 0.9, just released two days ago.
"apt-get install FireFox"
Ok, how do I launch thi
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
1) I can expect them do, because pre-1995, all average users DID use the command line, at least all of them but the Mac users. While not having to use the command line anymore may or may nti be a good thing, insisting that users can't handle it is erroneous.
2) If this ION distro is anything at all like the other Debian based newbie distros, then it will have a GUI frontend to apt-get that will make installation so effortless that the Mac way will s
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
I guess that's perception, of course. That's much easier for us(geeks). But a few problems come up.
Re:Apple experience? (Score:2)
apt-get install/remove 'program name' (wow that was difficult and it got my dependencies too!)
Duh. Where do I type this? I type it, but a bunch of my desktop icons keep turning blue. Are you sure that's the right thing to do? I can't even see what I'm typing!
(Assuming our valient user figures out that he has to run the Terminal program:)
Duh. "apt-get install Microsoft Office" doesn't work. Do I have to put my credit card in this slot here?
mount a cd/dvdrom is done typically fresh f
Apple Prices (Score:2)
I've got a chart of features, price, and experience with how long the Macs last in the hands of students compared to Dells. The iBooks cost about 40% LESS than the similarly-equipped Dell machines, the gap grows even more when you get to year three and have to replace ALL the Dells but 3/4 of the iBooks are still good for another year.
Any ideas? (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyone have any i deas what distro this is most likely based on?
Re:Any ideas? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Any ideas? (Score:2)
Secret developers (Score:5, Funny)
Ummm... you don't have any?
Re:Secret developers (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Secret developers (Score:5, Funny)
They're SCO employees?
Re:Secret developers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Secret developers (Score:4, Interesting)
(PS. I love KDE, it spellchecks this form as I type. Who says Linux isn't innovative).
Re:Secret developers (Score:2, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Great (Score:3, Insightful)
Lesson Learned! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Lesson Learned! (Score:2)
But ... (Score:3, Interesting)
ION Linux may guarentee that the software and hardware will play together nicely but you've gotta pay for it. I've never had a problem getting Linux (RedHat, Debian, Gentoo) to work well on standard Dell machines or on machines I've built from various parts.
Nice idea but prebuilt Linux machines don't have a big market and I don't see that ION Linux is going to change this.
Re:But ... (Score:2)
I've built all of my desktop x86 systems, and tweak just about everything. I have installed a few different distributions on my Dell lattitude CPx.
As the Dell laptop is getting long in the tooth, I've considered getting a new laptop, and to be honest my ranking is currently;
Kind of Pricey (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not buy a Dell, format with Linux, good to go.
I guess they install Linux for free, and provide you with some sort of support, but if you really need that why not just use Windows?
Or, install Debian - it's getting easier every day.
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:4, Insightful)
Well if you want to download several install CDs, try to hunt down drivers, and edit a bunch of
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:2, Insightful)
You mean like everyone else does? Interesting concept.
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:2)
You'll notice that 'everyone' isn't a whole hell of a lot of people.
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:2)
Dell and all the other mass market PC manufacturers still ship with proprietary hardware. That means without the OEM's software on CD, you're screwed trying to install even Windows. It's more problematic on laptops, but I've run into issues on Dell desktops as well.
That's why I still prefer building my own systems. Of course, installing Windows on that homebuild still involves "several install CDs". One for Windows, one for the motherboard, one
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:4, Interesting)
Hardly a rebuttal, but I'll answer anyway. I'm not denouncing Linux. I'm pointing out its weaknesses. Why would I do this? Well certainly it's not to convert people to another OS. I want to see Linux improved. I want to see more people use it. I want it to be used broadly enough that I can switch to it without giving up hardware compatibility and the game library. Slashdot sometimes has a hard time realizing why Windows is in the lead, sometimes a little smack with the reality stick is in order.
"Having read through your comment history, you make it very clear that you're pretty die-hard when it comes to windows (minus some dabbling in linux). So what do you care?"
Die hard when it comes to Windows? Eh I guess in a sense that's sort of true. It's not because I like Windows, it's because Linux hasn't caught up to Windows in some of the areas that count.
"Or is this the same mindset that makes all usenet windows-advocacy groups full of linux advocates and all linux-advocacy groups full of windows advocates?"
I am not a Windows advocate.
"Are you so egomaniacal to think that you're turning people away from the evil path, or can you just not resist the urge to throw in your opinion no matter what?"
I'm pointing out Linux has flaws. Sorry if that's too much to take. A wiser person would listen to my criticism and figure out a.) if it's valid, b.) what to do if point A is true. Attempting to label me with names like 'egomaniacal' is really rather fruitless.
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:2)
Re:Kind of Pricey (Score:3, Insightful)
What Element is doing is making Linux machines targeted at people that aren't alrady more than halfway to IT people. You know, one of those things that is supposedly holding Linuc back from being adopted by mainstream arguments.
In everything I have read that started out "Linux would be great for the desktop marke
I-Dash? (Score:3, Interesting)
I just hope the distro ends up changing its name and not My favorite Window Manager [modeemi.fi]
Makes sense... (Score:2)
Re:Makes sense... (Score:2)
This is the primary reason why not too many people have switched to the Mac. You can't just try it out.
Un-fricken-believable (Score:5, Interesting)
Not only that, but we need distributions that only work_on/come_with certain hardware. So now I go from 2% market share to 0.0002% marketshare!
Have these guys ever taken Marketing 101, or ANY type of business course? What kind of business plan is this, and who honestly expects it to sell?
Let me give you one obvious hint - steal business ideas that are GOOD, not those that have been holding Apple back for the past 15+ years.
Re:Un-fricken-believable (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I think that should be read as business plans that do not make you (You) a customer. Apple has carved out a very profitable niche doing what other people won't. I wasn't part of apple's audience for a long time - didn't have the money for it to be an option. Now that I have the money I don't have the time to deal with linux. I'll gladly fork out (aparently a lot, too) so that my computer just works when I turn it on.
I think this is wh
Re:Un-fricken-believable (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally have no problem running too much hardware on linux anyway. I think the open-source community is taking quite a nice chunk out of that, and things improve with each new kernel release.
I just don't see a need for this distribution, especially when Mandrake is running fine on my hardware (which isn't all mainstream either) and I can just throw Mandrake 5 bones when I
Re:Un-fricken-believable (Score:2)
They make a fancy slick looking appliance PC, and I'd be tempted to replace my current linux box with one.
Nobody has!? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, I don't know if VA sold workstations, but I know that Penguin did (and does), because I've used them. Penguin has some nice-looking Opteron servers as well.
You might argue that these two companies are ta
Wow. (Score:3, Funny)
I know most sports stars refer to themselves in the third person, but you actually think to yourself in the third person? Do you also answer your own rhetorical questions?
Re:Un-fricken-believable (Score:4, Insightful)
Holding Apple back? What do you think has differentiated Apple them from beige-box-wintel-mediocrity? All Element needs is a successful brandname and they are on their way to success. Even if it is Apple-like success, it wouldn't be bad.
-matthew
Actually..... (Score:4, Insightful)
If ION can put together a slick looking and feeling desktop system with linux nicely tuned on it then I will be *glad* to give them my money. And I have been setting up linux on laptops and workstations for a number of years now.
Why would I pay them money when I can just buy a Dell and do the same?
Two reasons.
Because I'm not always satisfied with the hardware that Dell chooses and I'll be very happy if I don't have to download another $%*# experimental winmodem driver, get the right hardware acceleration components loaded into my X server or figure out why the cd/rw only appears as a cd.
I love linux and love the control I have over the entire system but I hate having to wrestle with configuration issues all the time. If by default my laptop came well tuned and looking pretty I would pay the ION folks some $$$$.
And so would my company.
And so would my friend's companies.
Cool. I hope they get their prices and the the look of their distro right.
Oh, and add a few we more servers to the cluster......
--
Dan Glauser
J2EE Architect
http://www.roundboxmedia.com
Re:Un-fricken-believable (Score:3, Interesting)
I think they are
It makes excelent sense. (Score:2)
If the underlying system is Debian, then who cares if it's a "different distro". All debian file systems adhere to a common standard, so fork it all you like, as long as they are all intercompatible.
Don't you recall the Browser Wars? System vendors made a huge deal over wanting to have control over their users interaction with the desktop. Customizing it to their own specifications (both DELL and Compaq were big into this). Then MS made them sign contracts preventing them from
It is not all about marketshare (Score:2)
You refer to yourself in the third person? Uhhh, OK. Anyway, this distribution is not for you. It is for the people who buy their systems. Not only that, but we need distributions that only work_on/come_with certain hardware. So now I go from 2% market share to 0.0002% marketshare!
The world does not revolve around marketing. Do you think BMW cares that they don't have the marketshare of Ford? Do you think A
Somebody should tell him... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Somebody should tell him... (Score:2)
Dude, you are my new Geek God.
Server meltdown..... (Score:2, Interesting)
While trying to retrieve the URL: http://elementcomputer.com/
The following error was encountered:
* Connection Failed
The system returned:
(111) Connection refused
Down for the count. (Score:3, Insightful)
I see it's been said (derisively) that this is no new idea. While no one will content the accuracy of that statement, this is a new approach to offering a cohesive and well planned Linux box.
And that's a GOOD thing. How many times have we read the trolls complaining to the heavens how Linux would surely find better success if only it didn't take those extra few minutes to research your new hardware; if only it was better integrated, on both the hardware and the software level.
It appears we're all going to see if those complaints were truly the thing holding Linux back. As a former Mac user, who has been converted to Linux on account of my ability to pick it apart at the deepest or most shallow levels, the only thing I do truly miss was the slick unity Apple provided for it's consumers. Let's see if these guys can do the same.
I certainly won't wait with baited breath, but this is a cool and worthy idea. Good luck guys/gals.
Sounds like a reasonable approach... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've installed more operating systems in the last 20 years than I can count. My main home system is a Fujitsu P2040 laptop that currently dual-boots Win2k and Mandrake 9.2, and I've probably spent 60-80 hours installing and tweaking and tuning both of these operating systems just to get everything working to my liking in both operating systems - all the hardware buttons (even the "email" button and notification light), cd-burning, region-free DVD playback, trackpoint sensitivity & z-axis support, 3d acceleration (albeit pathetic on this Mach64-based Rage Mobility) under linux, cygwin in win2k, Crusoe-tuned power management and monitoring, remapped keyboard (caps=ctrl, winkeys useful), separate partitions for my data and OS (and a swap partition used by both operating systems). I can recover this clean, custom load of either OS with bootable CD sets I made. I replaced the fujitsu logo on the top of the lid with a metal plate I screen printed with tiny C version of DeCSS (efdtt.c, props to Charles Hannum and Phil Carmody). It's a great little computer and works a treat - but I'll probably sell it soon because I've come to prefer my girlfriend's G3 ibook. It's got that UNIX-fresh flavor I crave right out of the box, and doesn't come loaded from the factory with bullshit like a PC, and it took all of 5 minutes to configure to my liking when I installed Panther on it.
A company that can deliver a no-bullshit PC running linux with Apple-grade hardware/software integration might get my business. I'm not convinced that Element is that company, but we'll see.
-Isaac
Really Cool (Score:4, Insightful)
It is good to see a company doing the work for people who want to run Linux... without worries of hardware support. Not only is it good for users, but it is good for general hardware support in Linux. The more vendors see people (or resellers) making their purchasing decisions based on how good the Linux drivers are for their hardware, the better the drivers will get.
-matthew
Re:Really Cool (Score:2)
Well, i counted 5, but your point is made.
-matthew
Re:Really Cool (Score:2)
The difference between Apple and Element... (Score:2, Funny)
Damn! (Score:2)
Apple clones (Score:3, Insightful)
Had Power Computing and all those mac clone companies existed before Apple, I doubt even Apple would have gotten off the ground...by extension...
Re:Apple clones (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The "Apple experience"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:GPL? (Score:2)
Taken generally the argument makes even less sense - then no GPL code should be hardware specific at all - since who decides what the 'generic' hardware is?
Re:GPL? (Score:4, Insightful)
And btw, the purpose of the GPL is not to restrict what one can do with the source. It is all about sharing your improvements and not getting monetary compensation from it, since the original authors gave it to you for free. A sort of chain reaction.
I can see nothing bad with selling Linux related services.
Diego Rey
Re:GPL? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like that a company is using Linux in a way that (seemingly) intentionally keeps its software from being of use to anyone who doesn't buy their product. It seems to go around the purpose of GNU and OSS.
Actually, you have it backwards. This is exactly what the GPL was designed for. This company has snazzy new hardware. Since the company can customize an OS around GNU/Linux, they are saved the millions of dollars requisite to develop a proprietary OS. Now you can buy the base model for $799, instead of $2799. Nevermind that then vendors and OSS projects would have to work on porting their products to the new OS (not likely in many cases) in the case of a new proprietary OS.
It's better for them as a company because they are quicker to market and can make their products more economical. It's better for the users because thay can use a well established, rock solid stable OS with thousands of already available applications.
So what if you can only get the hardware from them? As long as they comply with the GPL (or the licesnse for any app they modify), it's all good.
Don't forget.... (Score:5, Funny)
There, Apple experience complete.
Re:If 2004 is the year of Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Subtitle it with "Make sure your server is Bullet Proof" or words to that effect.
LK
Re:That might work when...-- poor moderation (Score:2)
Mod me down if you will, (Karma:Excellent so it won't do me much harm) but wvitXpert deserves an Insightful for that, I'd do it myself if I had points currently but I don't.
Re:That might work when... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:That might work when... (Score:2)
If you have to compile everything to make one upgrade or install then you will never get ease of installation.