THG Linux Migration, Part Two 209
LqqkOut writes "Tom's Hardware Guide has posted part 2 of their Windows->Linux migration article. This time around, we're presented with some nifty divx screen caps that make life look oh, so easy. The Tom's crew packed a lot into this article, but did they sacrifice some essentials like 'RTFM' and other sage advice? This follows up their first article where users were shown how to choose and download a distro, back up some important data, and check for HW compatibility."
One major step (Score:3, Funny)
I think the moderator is missing the point here; (Score:2)
Parody, really.
Great Video (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Great Video (Score:5, Informative)
Developers, developers, developers, developers! (Score:5, Informative)
Dance, monkey boy ("Woohoo! I love this company!") [ntk.net] (3MB)
and last but not least...
The 3-minute Developers music video [achurch.org] (9.5MB)
Did I miss something? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Did I miss something? (Score:5, Funny)
It's Tom's Hardware, what the Hell do you want?
Re:Did I miss something? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Did I miss something? (Score:2, Insightful)
B. Since when is there a "simple Win-to-*nix install"? Admins and techno-junkies _still_ have problems with this. It almost never works correctly the first time and then once you have it up and running, there is a huge learning curve on how to use it for anything beyond OOo and mozilla.
C. He had problems? It looked sucessfull to me.
Re:Did I miss something? (Score:2, Informative)
In reality, they should have focused on one distro, I don't care which one. This is supposed to be a beginner's guide and a through walk through would have been a lot more useful to a newbie than a brief overview of the steps to cover all major distros.
Linux installed is easy to use, its the initial install and setup that scares away the newbies.
RedHat or SuSE? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:RedHat or SuSE? (Score:2)
Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Move from MSIE to Mozilla (cost: 2 hours to settle down)
3. Move from Outlook to Mozilla Mail (cost: 1 week to settle down)
4. Switch the OS when no-one's looking (cost: $40 for Xandros, 1 hour per PC).
Seriously: the key to migrating is to start with the applications.
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously: the key to migrating is to start with the applications.
What about games? I still have a Windows box at home just for games.
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:2)
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:2)
Szo
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:2)
Then I like Neverwinternights, BzFlag and Freeciv. All the i.d. stuff is there too along with UnrealTournament and some classics such as SimCity 3000.
I never missed much of the rest of the gaming world.
Linux is GREAT for games (Score:5, Informative)
And of course tons more run with Wine[X] including those Direct3D only ones.
Lets not forget the GREAT Linux games too...
NO reason not to use linux for games!
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:4, Informative)
* Uru: Ages Beyond Myst
* System Shock 2
* Silent Hill 3
* Serious Sam
* MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
* Homeworld2
* Europa Universalis
* Deus Ex: Invisible War
* Dark Age of Camelot
* Beyond Good & Evil
* Planescape: Torment
* Master of Orion III
* Mafia
* Far Cry
* Warcraft III
* Max Payne
* Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
* Command & Conquer Generals
* Sacrifice
* Grim Fandango
Your turn
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:3, Funny)
Worst. Sequel. Evar.
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:2)
Its almost worth giving those bastards $30 for a 6 month subscription.
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:2)
Max Payne & Max Payne 2 run under WineX along with several others.
No, you won't be able to play the majority of A titles under linux.
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:2)
Puzzle Pirates (Score:2)
Re:Linux is GREAT for games (Score:2)
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:2, Interesting)
I switched to OpenOffice and Mozilla about six months ago, and almost never look back. Except for a couple of crappy Web sites that only work with Internet Exploder, I've never had a reason to use IE or MS-Office again, and have talked several co-workers into using OO and Mozilla as-well. They are faster, safer, more reliable, and in the case of Mozilla- have much better spam and pop-up control. Fortunately I've had an easier time bringing open source software in now that our IT boss has embrased Mac
Question (Score:2)
Being sneaky about installing Linux under people's noses seems like a very sleazy way to spread adoption. I'm sorry, but Linux is not ready enough for that kind of bait-and-switch, and it's a tad bit disconcerting anyway to be that sleazy.
You spread through education and willing adoption, not sneaky forced adoption.
no go in the corporate world (Score:3, Insightful)
There are several apps that can live side-by side with MS products without major harm done; Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, OOo as examples.
But before the migration is complete:
1. Don't underestimate the power of MS Office macros, VBA-scripts and specially the users that made them. They can be hard-necked.
2. Don't forget about the ActiveX components and other "MS standards", XML parsers etc. too often with conne
Re:no go in the corporate world (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not underestimating them They send email to me all the time. Fortunately, my AV software gets most of it.
Re:Win2Lin Migration HOWTO (Score:2)
Now, the thing I think was missing from Tom's first article and you don't mention is that all Linux distros aren't equal in this respect.
I work in circuit design. Many of the tools are now ported to Linux (Yeah!) BUT most only support Red Hat Enterprise (Doh!). So, if you have any issues you need to have RHE if you want support. Seeing that these tools are pretty pricey the cost of getting RHE is just a drop in the bucket. So, when migrating don't just look for the
RTFM (Score:5, Interesting)
If I RTFM before I did anything, I wouldn't ever get anything done, as I would still be RTFM.
I hardly ever RTFM, and when I do, it is in reference to a singular problem. As in, "how do I do ______", and RTFM section on that.
Actually, if one could write a FM, they ought to be able to SCRIPT it and put it in a GUI, don't ya think?
Here is a trick that nobody has thought of, how about a CLI command builder. You know a GUI interface to utilities and programs that doesn't actually do anything but create the CL necissary to execute a command you need done.
That way, a person could use the GUI to improve their CLI skills.
Re:RTFM (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:RTFM (Score:2, Informative)
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
Re:RTFM (Score:4, Informative)
Re:RTFM (Score:5, Informative)
Let me say I know the frustration, this weekend I finally got a linux distro to like our PC's hardware and actually work. While a massive centralized faq would be nice I know it will never happen and so I use what is available to me. This is one of the downsides to a discentralized system, there is no one place to look and lots of reinventing the wheel is done.
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
A centralized information source is no better.
Go ahead and search for any topic and try to get a good answer without wading through gobs on unrelated gunk.
everyone needs a better centralized information system that has a decent search engine and relevance ranking...
unfortunately it takes LOTS of money to hire librarians to manage your information and documentation stores... and no company wants spend money on it... as it does not increase marketability n
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
Doesn't this prove the point of the grand-parent post? If when the Linux aficionado ("LA") tells the Linux newbie to RTFM the LA is in fact telling the newbie to search and read all of the relevant FAQs, forums, mailing lists, irc channels, etc., won't the reponse of most newbies be, "Thanks, but I'll go back to Windows?"
Re:RTFM (Score:5, Funny)
Asking the Linux Guru's how to do something in Linux is the wrong way to do it. Say you want to find all the files in a directory that contain some string.
Wrong Way to Ask : "How do I search for files that contain a certain string, using Linux?"
This will only get you a RTFM
Right Way to Ask : "Linux sucks because in Windows, you can easily find files that contain a certain string just by going to 'Search for files and folders'! Linux can't do that" ;)
This will get you at least 10 ways to do it
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
Windows doesn't have a manual to read. It has help files that are more or less useless except to a newbie.
People don't learn windows with a manual, it is just THERE, waiting to be used. When was the last time any windows help site started the FAQ with "RTFM"? In fact, when was the last time you saw a Windows manual for that matter?
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
BTW, help that is not (by your implication) useless to a newbie is actually a good thing!
Re:RTFM (Score:2, Interesting)
I dont have the time to answer every question for every person. It is not logical for a person to figure this stuff out on their own but TFM were provided for people to teach themselves.
Scripts are not the salvation of society. While I could make a script for many thi
Uh (Score:2)
A GUI program to build CLI commands, talk about overkill--yet I fully expect that someone has t
Re:Uh (Score:2)
[I]mv
or
Detailed instructions on opening a file browser, navigate to file, then either click and drag or cut and paste file into new location.
Besides, people who had 286,386, or 486 computers were quite comfortable in DOS and are happy to use a CLI.
Not BEFORE you touch it, when you have a question. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have a question, then you RTFM.
If your question is NOT answered in TFM, then you ask it.
Actually, lots of people have thought of using a GUI to put together a command line statement. Lots of people have even thought of using a GUI to import/export text based config files.
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
I started reading it last night, and the author mentioned in the preface that after reading his text, you'll end up going about your day noticing how various objects are or are not well designed for in
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
I don't think anyone can learn to use a word processor without reading the manual (or asking someo
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
IPOD. It isn't easy to make it intuitive, which is why it isn't often done. People are more concerned with getting things to market, that they often sacrifice usability to be the "first".
This is where the principle of KISS comes in. KISS for most things works better. 80% of the time we only use 20% of the options. Let say we have 10 commands, the simple menu should be two or three most used commands. Others should be available, but tucked NEATLY out of sight.
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
Actually a LOT of Linux programs do just that.
Good examples would be cd burners and mp3 players.
Nearly all of those use command-line programs to handle the actual work. It's part of the whole *NIX philosophy: lots of small programs that are good at doing one thing.
A typical CD-c
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
The point is that if people want us to use the CLI for stuff, and get the syntax right, and I don't want to have to RTFM to do it, learning all 108 options for said program, then the GUI should build the command, and let me review it before it executes.
high and mighty (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:high and mighty (Score:3, Insightful)
I will say that I thought the comment about GTK+, though seemingly only there to illustrate the point that some software will require other software to run, was badly phrased and probably should ha
Not to mention (Score:3, Interesting)
They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer. Many OSS advocates simply don't get it. The obsession with "choice" and "freedom" has produced difficult-to-use software that gets reinvented by about 20 other competing clones, all doing things differently. Somehow this is supposed to be good.
Re:Not to mention (Score:2)
People don't want to "see under the hood" or "download the GTK+ development library."
They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer. Many OSS advocates simply don't get it. The obsession with "choice" and "freedom" has produced difficult-to-use software that gets reinvented by about 20 other competing clones, all doing things differently. Somehow this is supposed to be good.
Did you ever think that many OSS advocates simply don't care?
Right now, I have an OpenBSD/FVWM desktop. Is m
Re:Not to mention (Score:2)
They just want it to work, hence the use of Internet Explorer.
Well, you're absolutely right about the first part.
Just like I want my automobile to just work. And it does. I take it to the mechanic and have it worked on regularly. And I pay some for that service.
But if the car manufacturer started to hide the engine diagnostic codes [usatoday.com] in an effort to make me visit the dealership for very expensive service, you can bet I'd be concerned about welded shut hoods if there were any occasion whatsoever for servi
Re:high and mighty (Score:4, Insightful)
The GTK comment just hammers this home.
Until the new user KNOWS what they want, they can try it all -- especially the target user here (knows Windows, and is curious).
The data migration tips alone make this an article worth reading -- how to move your IE bookmarks and PST mailbox over...
And "Oracle, Apache and SMB" come later. First, convert, bringing over your data, and start exploring the new environment.
I give Tom's a really big "Two Thumbs Up" for this article -- good to get more hobby users into Linux!
Ratboy
Re:high and mighty (Score:2)
Now, I don't know if you're actually going to read this: so let's call your reply a sucessful troll...
Tom's article *did* mention Mozilla, Evolution, Xine (maybe MPlayer), GAIM... *and* what they are used for.
You know, the application mix that a hobby user would find useful.
With everything installed, the user can then begin branching out into other applications. This policy (install everything) makes installation of other things easier.
You want frustration? Lead the user into RPM dependency hell...
My first time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My first time (Score:3, Informative)
I reckon it's about time the distros and vendors got overthemselves and included these drivers by default. The users want them, and not having them "built in" is just a PITA for new users.
Nvidia card? (Score:2)
If so, the lack of support for 3D is because Nvidia decided not to let people know how the hardware works, but instead to require you to use thier binary driver. See the Nvidia website for thier driver.
Re:My first time (Score:2)
there are reasons to buy the full distro.. and extended hardware support out of the box is one of them.
Good for those of us who are used to Windoze (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good for those of us who are used to Windoze (Score:2)
it would be nice to have some sort of new users guide to the Linux CLI in the distro. it can get a little tedious just browsing to
If I know Toms (Score:2, Funny)
Serious flaw (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not just piping in on this topic, I have had to deal with dependency BS just like the rest of anyone who hasn't had some obscure perl module.
Thank microsoft's installapp creator (visual studio) for alleviating this problem on the Win32 side of things. Linux is left to flounder without, since there's no real way to baseline the needed dependencies and install them with the application across multiple Distros/versions easily.
Automation is what makes computers useful, big round buttons make them usable by the avg.
Re:Serious flaw (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Serious flaw (Score:2)
Re:Serious flaw (Score:2)
I have a problem in Gentoo--I can't print. Getting this to work from the manual is not happening--I've tried.
The trouble is that when I asked about it on the forums I never got a response.
That said, there have also been times when the forums were great. This is fine for someone with 2 things: time and patience. I happened to have both, but for someone who is doing anything remotely mission critical, the forums aren't good enough, and the manual not
Re:Serious flaw (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree gentoo isn't suitable for beginners, but emerge and the like show that Linux doesn't have to be a dependancy nightmare. A slick GUI interface and pre-compiled packages might actually be more user-friendly than the double-click setup.exe system. Firstly because you could get all your software from one trusted source (i.e. the programs would be written by loads of different people/groups but the people who produce the packages for your distro would have independantly reviewed/tested the code to a cert
RPM Hell (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you guys really live like this? If so... why?
Re:RPM Hell (Score:2)
The fact is, that it takes a lot of time to package everything like that, and a lot of human resources, which most distros simply cannot afford. Often these distros have other things which make them attractive, which is why
Re: (Score:2)
Re:RPM Hell (Score:2)
No one said they should have to.
The model has scaled pretty well, as far as I can see. Not every piece of crap program on freshmeat needs to be available for the novice user, nor should it be. The model might not be th
Re:RPM Hell (Score:2)
apt-get install foo (Score:2)
Re: First thing to install after Red Hat? APT (Score:4, Informative)
APT!
Just go to rpmfind.net, look up apt, and select the correct version matching the version of Red Hat you have installed. Download it, and install it:
rpm -Uvh apt...
Congratulations, that's probably the last time you'll have to search for an RPM! After that, keeping Red Hat up-to-date, and finding and installing most programs, is:
apt-get update
apt-get -u upgrade
(and occasionally "apt-get -u dist-upgrade", for when a bunch of stuff changes)
or, to find and install some package:
apt-cache search program
(review available versions)
apt-get -u install program-version
Done! All except for blowing away Red Hat, and installing Debian instead. Then, you can access the rest of APT's powerful features, and really pick and chose between what Debian release you want to run (stable, testing, unstable, experimental).
Re:Serious flaw (Score:2)
Repeat after me:
There is no single method of application distribution.
Application distribution is distro spefic.
Redhat is different than Gentoo, is different from Debian, which are all different from the format used by a Sharp Zaurus PDA. What works for Gentoo would be hell on a Sharp Zaurus. Choose a distro that suits you needs.
Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's. (Score:2)
Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's. (Score:2)
Fedora Apt/Yum Repositories and Guide [xades.com]
Re:Serious flaw-Oh so 90's. (Score:2)
1. Debian's apt repositories contain far more software than Fedora repositories. For example, Debian testing has roughly 14000 packages, while all of the Fedora repositories pulled together have 4000 packages.
2. Debian's repositories have more strict, stable, and reliable standards. So installing software from them is less likely to mess up your system. With Fedora,
I like what examples they chose (Score:2, Redundant)
I was expecting more (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I was expecting more (Score:2)
Re:I was expecting more (Score:2)
school and college students.
Hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
let me just add to the list:
-Sagem f@st 800 ADSL USB Modem and PPPoA, just hassle
-ATI All-In-Wonder Pro dual screened with a 9200SE - if you get this working ill grovel down to you.
-Diamond S90 (vortex) sound card - shove it up your ass, you'll get better performance
and unrelated - IBM Deskstar harddrives - if you hear that grinding noise your screwed.
Re:Hardware (Score:2)
Well done (Score:5, Insightful)
Migrating (Score:3, Insightful)
xmms and mp3s (Score:4, Informative)
Oops!
Re:xmms and mp3s (Score:2)
Linux zealots shooting themselves in the foot... (Score:5, Interesting)
Quotes like this make me cringe on so many levels.
1. What do they use the software for? Perhaps they only use it because some intern set up a script to automate a file renaming process. That doesn't make it good enough for me
2. What makes you think my needs are completely met by something that meets someone else's needs? This argument has no value. "Kibbles and bits - if it's good enough for lassie, it's good enough for your half a bee, Eric."
3. ???
"I'm not a real Linux user, but I advocate Linux on my hardware site. Testing hardware is tough, but when my working evironment consists soley of Windows machines, at the end of the day I like to go home and relax at the command line of my RedSuseBian. There's nothing like a good scripting session to clear the head and soothe my tender muscles. Try it! You'll like it - I gaurantee."
Bleah. Leave the PR quotes to real PR people, and just give us the facts.
-Adam
Its the Apps... (Score:2, Informative)
I have just one App that is keeping me in XP, it is Autocad 2004, soon to be 2005. Sure, I could run it under wine, but I need it to work 100% of the time, with all of its functions. I don't have time to deal with Wine in it current form.
too lightweight to be any use (Score:2, Insightful)
I have just switched myself. One of the most fustrating part of it is installing apps, not because of the dependancy problems that's easy to solve. The real problems occured for me because you need to use two user accounts, one to install and one to run the app. Windows users aren't used to this, so get it all mixed up and end up
video5.avi (Score:2)
First they describe Samba as a web server for Linux. Then, on a first install attempt, it shows a screen full of conflicts, so they just --force it.
Couldn't they find a friend who knew a thing or two about Linux to say "Uhh..."?
Re:My first Linux migration. Success! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:From the other-sage-advice dept: (Score:2)
$ uptime
12:00pm up 1567 day(s), 20:30, 1 user, load average: 0.79, 0.79, 0.80
That means I get to feel damn good about myself.
Re:From the other-sage-advice dept: (Score:2)
Re:Server 1 Server 2 Server 3 (Score:2)
Why, oh why, THG, do you make me choose the server to download videos? It's annoying to have to click, wait, cancel, ad nauseum, until you find one that's fast. Implement load balancing. Really, it's not that hard.
And what's with the ZIP files? This is like an article on migrating to Linux being available only as a Word document - albeit less proprietary. How about making gzipped tarballs available too?
Or, even better, how about figuring out how to use audio and video codecs so that the files are already
Re:bah (Score:2)
Well, how many resources are chewed up depends whether you choose to actually run all the things you install. IIRC, on RedHat you still have to go and tell things to start on startup, unlike Debian where (almost) everything you install starts up immediately. But you do lose disk space, I guess.
What they really should have said was install Fedora with minimum setup, then install apt and synaptic, and then find other things you need from there.