Microsoft Plans to Create Local Language Software

zensufi writes "CNET News has a story stating that Microsoft has announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key Microsoft applications, giving the software giant a hedge against a growing international threat from open-source software." The piece explains: 'The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs" that government and academic developers can use to produce localized versions of the Windows XP operating system and Office 2003 productivity package.'

Hedge?

[zensufi]

I don't know exactly what this "hedge" is. Open-source software has been translated by locals for a long time already. It seems that something even more important to these locals would be the price and reliability of their machines. GNU/Linux might be the better system for them to run, given limited resources.

Well

[CptChipJew]

Countries like China have local regions which don't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese, yet these are most likely the only 2 Chinese languages that Microsoft localizes their products for.

Re:open source challenges??

[System.out.println()]

Open source, bad? HOW DARE YOU!!!11one!!!! ....but seriously, Apple has M$ completely stomped. Not only is almost every app multi-language, but they make it very easy for the third-party developers to make their own apps multilingual - it's as easy as creating a Spanish.lproj file (or whatever language). Although you do have to actually translate it....

Re:What Gall

[Anonymous Coward]

Government and academic developers buy site licenses so they can have unlimited use. In the end it comes out to much less than "$400 a pop."

Who modded this fool Insightful?

HTH, HAND.

Profit abroad

[DryBaboon]

I'm in China and I've never seen a non-pirate version of any piece of software, including on computers of reputable companies. Not only is there no respect for copyright, there is no understanding of the concept. The increase in profit will not be that great because everyone will use the new localised software... but in pirate copies with no money going to MS... but I guess that's ok if you rate it by convenience to humanity.

Re:open source challenges??

[Vicegrip]

A vague unsupported statement by an AC moderated to +4 ..... But hey, MS astroturfers like to shoot fast and make a lot of noise, so I guess I'm starting to get used to it. Anyways, when was the last time you used KDE [kde.org]?
FYI: KDE now supports 49 languages [slashdot.org]and the list is actively growing. On an other note, I seem to recall a story just recently about Microsoft refusing to update Microsoft Office for Hebrew on the Mac...

As if that was going to change a thing!!!

[Goeland86]

Funny that it took so long for MS to realize they'd been had... I remember a friend of mine translating KDE documentation in french about 4 years ago... Not to mention the fact that asian fonts have been almost constantly present under linux, as far as I can remember. Besides, China already has Dragon Linux, and they wouldn't switch back to windows for anything else than a nuclear war threat... and even then it'd be a tough challenge! So guess what: that's not going to make a difference in the long run. MS has lost the initiative, and they're trying to make believe they still have it... I hope we can prove they're behind the Opensource community, and have been ever since linux came to being!

OSS or best practices challenged?

[fermion]

I have worked on a couple projects that allowed language localization. If the code is designed with modern standards in mind, it was quite easy to localize (at least for western languages) as all text was kept kept in separate resource files. The same for icons, et al. On the Mac such things could be changed, from day one, by resedit, a free and very usable application. This resulted in various themes based on Bloom County and other topics. It also allowed offensive icons to be modified. Of course, Unix has been providing packages at customizable levels of complexity for more years than MS has exists.

So one wonders what kind of antiquated practices MS is using that requires a 'special' program to allow localization. Could it be that perhaps MS is not competing against OSS, but is continuing it's fight against best software engineering practices. [And I know that many at MS know how to write code. I have their books. OTOH, we see many cases where corporate and monopoly market interests contraindicate best practices.]

Qt Linguist?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is a lot like the Qt Linguist [trolltech.com], right? Only Qt Linguist is here already, open source, and good for any Qt/KDE application.

Once again, Microsoft at the forefront...

Debian Linux Already has a lot of Language support

[cyber_rigger]

PO files in Debian for each language

http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/po/ [debian.org]

Re:open source challenges??

[PacoTaco]

Modded insightful? Office doesn't even support right to left languages.

Yes, it does [microsoft.com].

Re:open source challenges??

[droleary]

Open source, bad? HOW DARE YOU!!!11one!!!! ....but seriously, Apple has M$ completely stomped.

Then open source developers have MS stomped as well, if they were smart enough to chose GNUstep [gnustep.org]. It uses the same methods for localization that Apple's Cocoa apps do.

They're worried about free software

[geckoFeet]

For a while now, they've actually been producing local-language software, in a desultory and half-assed way, specifically in response to (usually much better) local-language free software. See, for ex., http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/item.php?lg=en&item_id= 79 for Welsh, Nynorsk (the *other* Norwegian), and Catalan.

Localization is written-- not spoken...

[Anonymous Coward]

Countries like China have local regions which don't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese, yet these are most likely the only 2 Chinese languages that Microsoft localizes their products for.

Actually you're confusing the spoken language with the written language.

Most computer program uses the written language rather than the spoken language. After all, how often do you ran a program that had a southern accent...

But there are two versions of written Chinese-- they're called traditional and simplified. The latter was created in the middle of last century.

Unlike spoken Chinese, you don't have the numerous dialects to deal with. So it is a reasonable thing for Microsoft and RedHat [redhat.com] to target just these two versions of written Chinese.

-cmh

Re:open source challenges??

[beren12]

Actuaclly all it does take is a text file. Not an ASCII file, a utf-8 one. The system has built in support for many, many languages. The app needs to be written with localization in mind, yes, but once the localized strings are tagged as such, you only need to translate the messages and put them in their appropriate directories. Just look at all the specific localizations for Safari, for example. These people dont need access to the code, just the localized.strings file.

But you can't switch languages

[26reverse]

I've been following the Welsh translations of KDE (odd hobby, I know), and they've been discussing these "Language Interface Packs". Apparently, installing them converts Windows into that language, yes. But that doesn't mean that one user can use Welsh (or French or German) and another individual use English (or German or French). So, you're locked into ONE LANGUAGE PER WORKSTATION. Other projects (like KDE) allow users to switch languages back and forth.

There's an article [kyfieithu.co.uk] (in English) on their website.

Microsoft battles Free Software in Rwanda

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what I've heard on the street, and I could be highly inaccurate, but here it is anyway:

Some weeks ago, CNet came out with an article [com.com] on localization, using Rwanda as an example.

Within a day or two, Microsoft had reps in that country, and offered the government all the MS software it wanted at $2 (US equiv) a CD. Also, resellers would get a sweet deal, to either increase profits there, or lower the cost of computers.

So, news of providing hooks to make locally localized versions seems natural. Microsoft isn't stupid, and it isn't sleeping either. These are decidedly tactical moves.

You can look at it this way, also: Competition between Linux and MSoft is resulting in a boon to poor countries: much cheaper software.

Re:open source challenges??

[Anonymous Coward]

Office supports right-to-left, though I've found it troublesome if you want to mix right-to-left and left-to-right (e.g., if I quote something in Hebrew or Arabic in the middle of an English paragraph, especially when the Hebrew or Arabic comes with diacritics, as typically, e.g., with biblical Hebrew). And its handling of languages/keyboards leaves much to be desired.

Yes, OpenOffice is worse (though I've put in some rather detailed bug reports that I hope will result in changes to 2.0). Progress on the Linux front, however, has come in leaps and bounds, and my guess is that it's just not going to be possible, over the long haul, for Microsoft to keep ahead of open-source tools when it comes to localization and 'small' markets.

Re:How do you say "security hole" in Swahili?

[Mr_Icon]

Well, to re-calc back from Russian, which has had precisely this problem:

security hole: a hole in defenses (dyra v zaschite)
patch: a clothes-patch (zaplata)
bug: officially, "a problem in software," but unofficially "a hallucination" (gluk), or direct usage of English "bug"

Other fun translations:
firewall: inter-network screen of defense (mezhsetevoi ekran zaschity), though "fayervoll" is used far more commonly
hard drive: firm disk (zhestkii disk), though among techies the word "vint" is commonly used because of a very old popular brand of hard drives: Winchester.
Macintosh: that other thing they use in the US

Overall, techie jargon tends to use words directly borrowed from English, though you won't find it in official language, because when Russian techies talk, it's completely incomprehensible (Ya emu fscknul partisheny, zapatchil parochku daemonov, sdefragmentnul hard, i posle reboota vse bylo okei). :)

This reminds me of a joke: an old Russian russophile professor was complaining that his students use a lot of foreign words in their works. "Why, why did you needlessly use this English word 'slide' during your presentation? There is a wonderful Russian word for that -- 'diapositiv.'" (which, of course, is German).

Maybe it's ugly, but "fayervoll" is far easier to understand than "inter-network screen of defense," which makes you think of something uttered on Star Trek. :)

Re:Just translating may not be enough...

[commodoresloat]

I agree. Lack of unicode support in Word can be crippling for a scholar writing about ancient Greek texts. MS simply doesn't allow such a scholar to look up ancient texts on perseus [tufts.edu] and just copy and paste a couple of lines of the Greek in a Greek font with accents. Too bad - you gotta retype every letter and hope you know the language well enough to get the accents right.

Re:Credit where credit is due

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them some credit where it is due.

Sorry, but Apple's done it far better for many years, with vastly smaller resources.

Re:And Microsoft did the same - in 1987

[davegust]

Umm, you have to either ship a seperate language DLL for that, or you have to ship a new exe (depending on whether the string tables were in it or the dll). A localized version.

No, you don't. Win16 resources supported multiple string tables within the binary, one for each supported code page. One binary can support multiple localizations, with the Control Panel configuration specifying the default code-page for the application. The app could use the API to format dates and times. Many of the important localization tools debuted in Windows 3.1.

You're right about the dialog sizes. Dialog metrics have always been a problem, even for plain old ASCII apps.

In Win16, nothing was Unicode - they used code pages (an IBM standard I think), which did support multi-byte characters.

You also have to worry about "unsupported" characters in some language versions when you're using anything that's not unicode (CString anyone?).

CString has supported Unicode and other multi-byte sets since MFC 3.0 - when NT 3.1 was released. When was that - 1994?

I feel Microsoft finally got their act together for locale support with NT - an OS that was natively Unicode, and then with Office 2000, which properly supports Unicode. As for the defense of Win16 -- I was just rebutting the assertion that string tables are something new for Windows. They're not.

LIPs are not full Localisation

[divec]

In Wales we have had experience of this - Microsoft recently announced that they would make a Welsh LIP available. However:

• The LIP only translates a minority of strings in the UI. OTOH most Open-Source software lets you do a full translation.
• It is monolingual - once Welsh LIP is installed, all users of that computer get the Welsh interface. This is almost useless in a country like Wales, where most businesses are bilingual. Most Open-Source software supports UI language choice at start time, or at least lets you install multiple copies for different languages.
• It is unsafe - there is no guarantee that Microsoft will continue to make this available in the future. When planning IT for a large organisation, you need more security than 2 years into the future. Open-Source licences guarantee that governments, or volunteers, will always have the power to translate software, at a predictable cost.

Having said that, it's certainly a start. I think we will see Microsoft, and other proprietary software vendors, forced to provide localisation in the future, to compete with Open-Source software which enables this.

Re:Credit where credit is due

[Tiro]

Ever tried Office on Mac OS X? If you want to use Unicode, better fire up TextEdit, the free Apple-written app, because Office won't let you use Unicode characters.

The Register, catalan and Microsoft

[YearOfTheDragon]

The Register On Windows, Nynorsk, Sami and Catalan [theregister.co.uk]:
Paul Taylor writes "So why Nynorsk, and not Catalan? Little chance of the Catalans getting their own language in Office... it's not a matter of economics, it's a matter of politics. Nynorsk is an "evolution" of Norwegian as far as I know, and M$ can hide behind the "Bright Shield of Progress" and getting some merit from the overall hack community. Catalunyan is really a political matter. Solved only with Madrid's approval ... First ask yourself if they teach Catalunyan in school, see if the government in Madrid approves of a Catalunyan version of the software (or would it be common-sense just to keep ALL offices Castillian and not create issues between versions), and then see if M$ would make money out of it. Basque is another thing altogether... :| (as well as Galician, Andaluzian etc...)"

Oscar del Pozo Triscon, Softcatala writes I've read your poignantly funny (article about Microsoft Office in Nynorsk. I couldn't help laughing out loud while reading the last paragraph, a sort of call to arms to us Catalans. Well, I'm happy to report you that we have been fighting to have a powerful, honestly-priced Office suite in our language, and we have succeeded indeed. Softcatala, a not-for-profit organisation that localises free software into Catalan and advocates its use (and to which I obviously belong), localised OpenOffice 1.0 to Catalan a few months ago in cooperation with Sun Microsystems, and recently distributed 70,000 CDs with it through a Catalan newspaper. As a result, the Education Department of the Catalan Government is looking very closely to OpenOffice to replace Microsoft Office in all schools throughout the country. So, surprise, surprise, despite all previous arguments and PR rubbish, Microsoft have promised the Catalan Government a localised version of Microsoft Office this year. Of course, we all know how strongly committed Microsoft Corporation is when it comes to minority languages. So we will keep releasing Catalan versions of free software, just to prevent their very strong moral fibre to be tested by the absence of competition. By the way, we'll be glad to give technical assistance to other organisations looking to translate OpenOffice or other free software to a "non-profitable language". OpenOffice.org catalan version [softcatala.org]

Miquel Strubell writes Dear Drew, Within 24 hours of your article "Windows comes to Nynorsk" being posted on the Internet, it received coverage in Catalonia. Thank you for raising the issue once again. Microsoft translated 1.0 versions of Windows 95 and 98, which they then failed to update. These versions were not introduced into their catalogue and were extremely hard to find in the PC corner shop. They also signed a third agreement with the Catalan government, this time without an exorbitant invoice attached to it, to produce a Catalan version of Windows XP. What they didn't say was that the vesion translated would be the network format, so it turns out out that the home user has been cheated! Nynorsk has achieved a version of Office, an area where Microsoft have entrenched themselves in refusing to produce a Catalan version. Good for Nynorsk speakers! More and more Catalans are turning to alternatives such as open code products, which www.softcatala.org distribute free of charge.

BBC [bbc.co.uk]:Boycott threat
In both instances, Microsoft pointed to the large cost of translating computer programs.
But the Norwegians had an ace up their sleeve.
The main organisation working for the Nynorsk language got most of Norway's high schools to threaten to boycott all Microsoft software if they didn't come up with a New Norwegian version of Office.
Many more users of minority languages will no doubt be inspired to fight a renewed battle for their

Native Esperantists - denaskuloj

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly how many people consider Esperanto their native language?

There are a few native Esperanto speakers. The exact number is not known, but is believed to be somewhere between 200 and 2000 [wikipedia.org]. They are referred to within the Esperanto community as denaskuloj, a word that doesn't translate simply into English. It means roughly "people who from birth", with the fact that it is referring to speaking Esperanto being implied. I've personally met two of them. They are all multilingual at a very early age.