Rome Moving to Linux

fmstasi writes "La Repubblica, one of the main Italian newspapers, reports shortly about an interview (in Italian) with Mariella Gramaglia, Communication Councillor at the Municipality of Rome. They are planning to start soon trying Linux on the desktop: 'The first tests will concern e-mail, address book software and sharing systems', she says. The Councillor also says that motivations are political rather than economic: 'In the short term, the money saved on license will have to be spent on training'. It seems that there haven't been any reaction yet from Microsoft: 'At Microsoft they know how much we esteem them', she says; 'for example, they are sponsoring a campaign to spread the use of computers among the elderly. And we'll keep on cooperating with them on other projects'. Maybe Microsoft also appreciates that there is (yet) no project of migrating all the clients? The Municipality has about 9,500 clients, so an eventual migration project would be slightly smaller than the one taking place in Munich."

Angling for free training

[southpolesammy]

Sounds more like they're trying to coerce Microsoft into giving them free training among other things. I'm not sold on their direction towards Linux based on the statements.

Re:How long?

[millahtime]

" How long before the US government starts to notice how much foreign countries are saving with OSS?"

Typically the US Government is behind the rest of the world in adoption of this kind of tech. So, I would say give it 5 to 10 years after the rest of the world starts to make a serious move towards it. That 5 to 10 years would hold with how they are with other tech programs.

Another entity using Tux as a bargaining chip

[blcamp]

Seems to me the City is playing the "we're trying out Linux" card in as a means to publicly complain about Microsoft.

At Microsoft they know how much we esteem them.

Riiiiight. They "esteem them" enough to tell the media they are trying something else.

This has been a tactic tried and true by other customers - it gets Redmond back to the bargaining table, to knock thier bid down a few euros, just as long as they send Tux away.

Re:Trying or Doing?

[Wudbaer]

How many people have 'tried' switching and given up under pressure from Micro$oft?

Oh yes, especially as we all know that Microsoft is cooperating closely with the Italian Mafia. Duh.

Might it be that a lot of people/organizations switch back or abort migration projects because they find out that Linux is not the right thing for them (yet) ?

Not just another "migration" story

[the_crowbar]

After reading the article, those involved are being quite realistic about this test. They are investigating changes for political reasons, but they also expect long term monetary savings.

From the article: (emphasis mine)

Political issues to part, to pass from the software owner that free one would have tradursi in a good saving of money for the communal cases. "But

this probably will happen alone in the medium period", specifies the Gramaglia city council member. "In the short term, what it is saved on the licences rispende in the formation of the staff, that will have to learn to use the new instruments. There are 9500 employs to you communal, by now, that they use the computer ".

This is good for the viability of Linux on the desktop. Object studies of using Linux for desktop machines will highlight weaknesses that can be addressed.

the_crowbar

Re:How long?

[bhima]

From the little I know about the US government I don't price is the issue. Earlier this week in the SELinux a military sysop was bemoaning the use of NT 4 because it was verified or validated or whatever. I lived in America for a long while, the government contracts I saw were filled based on how well you were connected or how much you lobbied/bribed. Microsoft has plenty of money to lobby/bribe and so I expect it will always has some sort of foothold.

However on Groklaw a military man wrote a short piece on how the military loves Linux.

So I suppose those areas that need customizability or security over the unwashed masses ability to use it will some sort of *nix.

Re:When in Rome

[Mick Ohrberg]

It seems that even if the interfaces are very similar, if there's even a slight difference in the look and feel about it (and as soon as there is *ANY* change) there is a need for training. I know from experience that moving from a dumb terminal environment (SunRiver [boundless.com] terminals) to Win95 workstations for a nationwide company required a LOT of training. Surprisingly, whenever an icon was added to the desktop there was an outbreak of confusion and mass hysteria, and more training was required.

Massive deployments of Linux desktops

[dtio]

Largo, Florida (400), Munich, Germany (14,000); Extremadura, Spain (80,000); Thailand (up to one million subsidized PCs to low income people, with 160,000 already shipped) and Rome now. Do you see a trend here? Massive deployments are taking place, mostly in the public sector, I think Linux has a bright future as the main option for tax funded massive deployments.

Re:When in Rome

[socode]

Why do you think it's possible to have "desktops... so intuitive that training won't be required"?

Consider: everyone needs to be trained to use a toilet.

Re:I can't wait for the day

[telbij]

Of course, when that day comes you won't notice if you're still reading /.

Re:I can't wait for the day

[FVK]

It may be sooner than we all imagine. There could be a turning point if MS doesn't get control of this virus and sucurity problem. I work for small business and home computer users, bottom of the barrel stuff maybe, but even on this level people are fed up with Windows and strongly considering OS X, if not Linux quite yet.

On a corporate level, if Linux is up to the task, and the myriad costs associated with Windows are more than the costs of switching and retraining on Linux, well... maybe I'm just dreaming.

Does anyone else think MS's future position seems less certain than ever?

Re:When in Rome

[RetroGeek]

Surprisingly, whenever an icon was added to the desktop there was an outbreak of confusion and mass hysteria, and more training was required.

Why is this surprising? Most users use a computer as a toaster, and mostly by rote. Imagine if tommorrow morning your toaster has a new lever on it labelled "PBT 1.0". What is PBT? It is Perfect Brown Toast. But did you KNOW that?

Most users are afraid of this thing called a computer. Here on /. we are comfortable using comnputers, but more importantly we are the curious and adventurous types. Changes do not faze us. We start a new program, without a manual, and can still get a pretty good feel of how to use it.

But to the normal user, a new icon is a terrifying thing. "OH MY GOD, IT IS DIFFERENT!" is a standard reaction.

Perhaps the question should be

[Richy_T]

Are you really training the users in what you think you're training the users in?

Seems like you're training them that if, when an icon appears on the desktop, that rather than just getting on and dealing with it, if they react with confusion and mass hysteria, they get a day off from their regular job for cushy training.

Rich

Mod Parent Up!

[goldspider]

I was going to make this same point... Linux isn't the be-all-and-end-all of operating systems. For a lot of people, Windows simply does the job better/faster. Is it really that hard to accept the idea that people still using Windows aren't being "pressured" in some way by Microsoft? Maybe they just like Windows better! Deal with it!

Ciao bella!

[Giulio Cesare]

What an instructive discussion! To see what the rest of the world (but mainly Americans, I suppose) thinks of us Italians is really amusing! Mafia, sopranos, the Pope, ancient Romans... Lol & lol. (Think also about pizza, icecreams, spaghetti, Venezia, mandolino and "That's amore!" please). Sociological instructive, yes. About Linux in Municipality of Rome... well I hope it's true, but you know... we are in Italy. Maybe the son of my son will see it. Ciao bella.

Re:Mod Parent Down

[1u3hr]

Maybe they just like Windows better!

That might well be true, if they had actually tried using something else. It's always amazed me how people will just refuse to even consider anything else than MS Office/Windows/IE/Outlook. If a menu is a different colour, it's a showstopper.

Re:A great success story of Linux on the desktop..

[iabervon]

Because they installed Debian, which is not commercial. Like it or not, software procurement goes in the "business" section of the newspaper, and that section is mainly information about the successes and failures of companies in doing business. Munich gets reported because it is a deal with IBM and SuSE, so we hear about how these companies are being successful in the sector. Extremadura isn't a big success for any corporate entity (as far as I can tell), nor a particularly big failure for MicroSoft; it's a great success story for the region, but that's only regional news.

I personally think that it's a much better example of adoption of OSS; Extremadura is actually using the freedoms that RMS goes on about to change the things they don't find right about the software, rather than treating the software as proprietary software sold on reasonable terms. But this won't be interesting to the newspapers until somebody in Madrid notices that Extremadura has better IT on a smaller budget.

Re:How long?

[vidarh]

The key thing, however, is that the government tends to arrogantly assume that people should deliver electronic forms etc. in formats compatible with whatever software the government uses. Increased government use of Linux will mean increased government use of things like Open Office, and inevitably some of them will start passing around Open Office files, and expect external consultancies etc. to be able to read and generate these files. That way government acceptance means that a lot of companies will have to deal with open source whether they like it or not.

Re:Tux's new motto

[gnu-generation-one]

Veni. Vidi. Libei.

Let's do an analysis

[rseuhs]

Does anyone else think MS's future position seems less certain than ever?

Let's look the reasons not to switch to Linux:

• Hasn't been done before (at that scale, by such a company, int that niche etc.)
• Some needed software isn't available for Linux
• Retraining costs, support problems, etc.

If you look at all these problems, you can sum them all up into a single problem:

Linux isn't very well established on the desktop yet

But with every migration, this problems becomes smaller. With every migration more software is ported. With every migration, more people gain Linux knowledge and mindshare. With every migration others can just "copy" them with much less risks.

One niche after another, Windows will go and Linux will come. The 3d-modelling world already has switched to Linux on the desktop. Now it seems that government desktops are next.

And as I already said: With every migration, reasons not to switch to Linux diminish, so the whole thing snowballs until Linux dominates the niche (and in the long run all computing).

So I expect that a few pioneers like Munich and maybe one or 2 other big cities go from WinNT4 to Linux. When Windows 2000 is discontinued (IIRC about 2006 or 2007) a lot more will migrate to Linux and will be able to do so much faster because you can easier avoid mistakes when it has been done before and of course because lots of software is already ported. Then after Windows XP is killed (2010?), I'd expect the majority of government desktops to run Linux.

Re:Let's do an analysis

[RoLi]

So how is this any different than today supposedly is?

It's like the PC-platform with many vendors but common standards.

If the only choice is Linux, then the OSS community will have become exactly what it is they purport to be against today.

It's irrelevant who is against what. Windows is doomed, it doesn't matter if you or anybody else is against or for "choice". I just laid down what will happen. It's basic market forces at work.

Personally, I want *choice*. If I choose not to run Linux for some reason, I want to have that as an option, which many of you people seem to not want to allow me

Again, it's irrelevant what you want and what I want to allow you. If it were for me, you could run Windows happily forever. But market forces are bigger than anything I or you can influence. In 15 years, running a proprietary software platform will be as rare and strange as running a proprietary hardware platform is now.

Of course besides Linux there will probably be compatible systems like BSD that will look, behave and feel exactly like Linux, despite technically being not Linux. But of course those can be lumped together into the Linux platform.

If you think that today's PC-market doesn't offer enough hardware choice and you would like to see Atari, Amiga, etc. - irrelevant, all proprietary hardware platforms are dead, severly sick or have opened up, at least partly (like Apple which has adopted PCI, IDE, USB, etc. like anyone else).

Also I think it's rather strange that you seem to accept the domination of common multi-vendor standards for hardware, but are afraid of the same happening for software. Seems a bit inconsistent for me, but maybe you can clear that up.

why should I not be *as* afraid, if not more-so, of the OSS/Linux community than I am of Microsoft?

For one, the OSS community doesn't hide their code from you so they cannot smuggle any malware into the products as it has happened many times with closed source software. Another reason is that nobody can force features against your will like Windows Product Activation or DRM.

But again, it's irrelevant. Neither you nor Microsoft can stop Linux and you will have to live with Linux, no matter if you like it or not and no matter if you are (irrationally) afraid of it or not. Of course the biggest pro-Linux argument is that with OSS the user (for the "average" user substitute "distribution") can remove any "bad" features without any problems. And that's the reason why such features don't appear in the first place. Nobody could enforce "Linux product activation".

At least Microsoft doesn't brag about how much trouble they will cause, or intend to cause, me if I don't agree with their "world vision".

Now you have clearly lost the touch with reality.

It wasn't some anonymous poster who called the GPL "viral", "a cancer" or "endangering capitalism", it was Microsoft top management members Gates and Ballmer. No higher up member of the OSS community has ever said something comparable about Windows. If you can show me anything comparable by any leader of any OSS-project, post it.

You have to be really out of touch to think that the OSS-community is more aggressive than Microsoft. Hell, you have to be out of touch to think that the OSS-community even comes close to Microsoft when it comes to FUD, lies, spin, insults and illegal tactics.

But again, that's irrelevant.

If the Microsoft case has shown us anything, it's that most people don't care about morals and you can do anything as long as you can get away with it.