Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Intel Software Wireless Networking Linux Hardware

Intel to Increase Linux Support, Release Centrino Drivers 381

jonman_d writes "ZDNet UK is reporting that Intel has promised to increase Linux support by releasing Linux drivers at the same time it releases Windows drivers for its hardware. According to the general manager of Intel's Software and Solutions Group, Intel wants Linux users to be able to use their hardware as easily, or easier, than any other hardware on the planet." Pingla writes in with more good news: "Intel promises to release Linux drivers for its Centrino chipset at the same time it releases drivers for Windows. An article featuring Lindows (aka Lin---s) on CNet has more." Sadly, the Centrino support will most likely be a proprietary driver, but it's better than nothing.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Intel to Increase Linux Support, Release Centrino Drivers

Comments Filter:
  • Big Hurdle (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mork29 ( 682855 ) <keith DOT yelnick AT us DOT army DOT mil> on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:14AM (#8338508) Journal
    Many claim that linux is held back by several factors including ease of use, interface, etc.. etc... I've always felt it was hardware compatiability. You could never be sure all of your hardware would work easily, and the average user can't try and go and build their own custom drivers, or even download them. This will certainly put pressure on the rest of the hardware manufacturors, and this could help linux take a few more points in the market share. No, it's not the magical answer, as their isn't one, but it's another start.
  • by dreamchaser ( 49529 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:15AM (#8338512) Homepage Journal
    No, it will probably be the opposite. As Linux grows in popularity, you'll see more and more vendors shipping proprietary drivers for their products. That's not a bad thing unless OSS is your religion.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:17AM (#8338521)
    I'll take proprietary drivers if it means I can use the hardware I like with the OS I love to get work done.

    People should not accept this or we'll get into another situation like you have with NVidia. Get a brand new box and you can't even do a net install on your Nforce chipset box because you need the nvnet driver which is a proprietary binary-only module and the manufacturer of the motherboard may or may not have included a pre-compiled binary on a floppy for you to use, but it's most likely only for Red Hat 9, etc. Screw all binary drivers, I insist on open source drivers for everything. The only thing I've had to relent on lately is the graphics card since the Nvidia stuff is the only decent graphics card out there but the modules are binary only. Sadly, my Nvidia card is also the most unstable part of my Linux box and it crashes (hard locks up) at least every 2 weeks or so and I have to power cycle the box. Fscking Nforce craptastic Asus A7N8X-Deluxe piece of shit motherboard.

  • Dumb (Score:5, Insightful)

    by adrianbaugh ( 696007 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:18AM (#8338531) Homepage Journal
    > Thus far, the company has been hesitant to ship an open-source driver, based on its concerns that showing Centrino's underlying programming instructions might reveal previously unavailable information about the wireless networking technology.

    Yeah. Because obviously no other companies have been able to produce wireless networking products. I can see the point of commercial secrecy when you have some l33t hardware that no-one else can make, but when you just have yet another implementation of something that's already widespread and implemented in lots of different ways it seems dumb to worry too much about protecting it through drivers. If the other companies cared enough about your particular methods they'd just get a team of coders to reverse engineer the closed-source drivers.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:20AM (#8338544)
    Then I guess Linux been Free Software does not matter either? I am serious, what's the adventage if Linux is going to have the same issues than other OSes: have to get drivers every now and then from different places instead of just upgrade kernel or distro, "play but do not touch", "upgrade your hardware becuase we do not support it anymore", "we do not like your architecture, just x86-32", etc.
  • by cnelzie ( 451984 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:20AM (#8338545) Homepage
    Seriously, what makes it so sad?

    Intel can do what they want. They are the owners of their hardware designs and the drivers to make that hardware function.

    If it's so sad that Intel is going to provide proprietary drivers, do you get sad everytime you get into your automobile? (The computer under your hood mosty likely uses proprietary drivers to interface with the autmobile.)

    There is room for both open and closed software in this world. I for one envision a world where the Operating System is wide open with all the tools one needs to make whatever changes they wish to it and to develop whatever they want to on it. If hardware manufacturers want to keep some or all of their drivers 'secret' that's fine, let them. If application developers want to keep their 'Whiz-Bang 2.0' application proprietary, let them.

    Believe whatever you want. I have and still use quite a large amount of both proprietary and open source software and in some cases, the open source software is better, in other cases, the proprietary software is better, even for the same task.

    What needs to end are silly proprietary APIs put into an OS by particular vendors to allow their other applications to run like the dickens while making competitor's applications less capable.
  • by zz99 ( 742545 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:20AM (#8338546)
    "...Intel has promised to increase Linux support by releasing Linux drivers at the same time it releases Windows drivers for its hardware"

    I doubt that they will open souce their drivers. So the Linux developers will write their own anyway, whenever they can.

    And personaly, as a user, I find open source drivers much more convenient.
  • Re:**SIGH** (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xpilot ( 117961 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:21AM (#8338548) Homepage
    Who the hell cares besides RMS? I love using my machine and it has an nVidia card in it. I don't care that their "driver" is closed source, I can play a lot of heavy duty games with it.

    It's not about RMS. Open source drivers benefit the development of the kernel, and also the users of the drivers and hardware those drivers support. Remember when the linux kernel was at 2.6, but we had to wait some time before nvidia released 2.6 compatible drivers? If they were GPL, the kernel developers could have incorporated the drivers into the kernel and development would have gone concurrently.

    Even now, sticking a closed source driver in there is problematic if there's a kernel panic. How are you going to debug it? What about security? Nobody ourside of nvidia has audited the code. There could be a potential vulnerability that they missed. We negate the benefits of open source if only *part* of our program is open source.

  • Re:**SIGH** (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mr Smidge ( 668120 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:22AM (#8338558) Homepage
    Who the hell cares besides RMS?

    That's quite a flamebait-inducing post you've got there...

    What about other operating systems? Do we have to badger Intel to release drivers for BSD, and whatever other operating systems might be released in the future?

    What happens if we release a new kernel, or decide to change something that breaks the rigid structure into which this proprietary driver is locked?

    Releasing proprietary drivers like this seems to be no more than a "keep them happy" quick-fire solution, as this is by no means a long-term solution. And frankly, ignoring the long-term is a very short-sighted viewpoint indeed.

    What's the ideal solution? Write your drivers so that they use a well-documented and open API that can always be well-supported, and make the code as portable as possible. Then what happens when you want to use your hardware with a different operating system? Well, so long as your operating system implements that particular well-documented and open driver API, then you shouldn't have any problem. Recompile, rinse, repeat.

    Think ahead. We wouldn't be pushing for open source drivers without reason.
  • by jocknerd ( 29758 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:28AM (#8338587)
    Who cares if wireless is built onto the CPU. I sure don't. Plus the Centrino is outdated technology. I wouldn't buy a new laptop that didn't support 802.11g anyway.
  • by tuggy ( 694581 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:28AM (#8338594) Homepage Journal
    having this drivers open is not only for nerds or geeks to be happy. it would probably help the kernel people to include a better support for it.. possibly having it better integrated in the kernel..
  • by 10Ghz ( 453478 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:29AM (#8338598)
    People should not accept this or we'll get into another situation like you have with NVidia.


    Which is what? A ompany providing kick-ass drivers that give superior performance than that same hardware would give in Windows? What do you suggest using as an alternative to NVIDIA? Ati? HAH, good luck trying to get those drivers to work, open-source or not! And if you do get them to work, what kind of performance are you getting from them? And how about their AMD64-support? NVIDIA has AMD64-drivers available right now. Where are Ati's drivers??? Where are open-source AMD64-drivers for Ati?

    Get a brand new box and you can't even do a net install on your Nforce chipset box because you need the nvnet driver which is a proprietary binary-only module


    One word: Forcedeth.

    Sadly, my Nvidia card is also the most unstable part of my Linux box and it crashes (hard locks up) at least every 2 weeks or so and I have to power cycle the box.


    You know, you CAN use the open-source NV-drivers that ship with Xfree. Or you could use the standard VESA-drivers. So it's not like you are forced to use those drivers. I for one haven't had any problems with NV-drivers.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:30AM (#8338606)
    A bunch of people in this thread have already posted responses that say things like "I don't care if a driver is bianary, I want to use my hardware, the only people who care are free software zealots."

    Bullshit. Proprietary drivers are a bad idea for linux. Now I have to say, the licensing issue does matter to me. Even if you don't care, there are plenty of technical reasons to avoid them and pester a company to release the source for their drivers. First of all, the code is usually sub-par. EEs right them, they're smart people, no doubt, but most of them aren't programmers and lot's of bugs and race conditions show up. The OSS community can't help debug them because we don't have the source. Furthermore, on a more personal level, most of the kernel hackers don't give two shits about proprietary drivers, because of that, they generally stay buggy and improperly maintained. Intel is a big enough company that they'll properly produce high-quality drivers; however, it is simply a fact that letting the OSS community have the source would increase their quality, more eyes looking at the code, and they would be the same people that have written the kernel. These debates flair up all the time on LKML. I was too lazy to go look for links to specific discussions, if you're interested in the issue however, they wouldn't be hard to find.

    - Ryan, who can't remember his password right now, and so posted AC
  • by elgaard ( 81259 ) <elgaard@@@agol...dk> on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:30AM (#8338609) Homepage
    >That's not a bad thing unless OSS is your religion.

    Or if you use something other than ix86 platforms. Vendors will probably not make binary drivers for CF-cards on my Yopy.
    Although in this Centrino case this might not be a big issue.

    Or you want to path your driver. I.e to allow TV-out on your graphics card. Or fix a bug.

    Or you use a !Linux OSS OS, like BSD.

    Or you use an old or experimental kernel.

  • by sploxx ( 622853 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:31AM (#8338615)
    I would put it this way: The brand "Intel" should be less important for the buying decision than a GPLed driver for the hardware. I think there are several, real benefits for using GPLed drivers:

    - fix bugs/do workarounds for the hardware the manufacturer doesn't care about
    - tweak the driver to your needs (this is not a joke: I'm glad that the tmscsim-driver for Tekram SCSI cards could be tweaked by me to work seamlessly with my old SCSI scanner!)
    - have support for the hardware as long as YOU wish
  • by hweimer ( 709734 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:31AM (#8338616) Homepage
    I don't think it matters if this is a proprietary driver, just yet. With big people like Intel and IBM showing an interest in Linux, its bound to encourage others to do the same. Then with time, open source drivers might just happen?

    That will take much longer if non-free drivers are available. Intel said somewhere that they won't release the driver as free software because they fear that this would reveal too much information about the hardware itself. So when Intel is out, the driver has to come from a third party. And clearly, the urge to develop a free driver is much lower when there is already a proprietary one available.
  • by DaHat ( 247651 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:34AM (#8338629)
    I too have the same motherboard and it is rock solid for me, I have this system up nearly non stop and it only comes down when I want to dink with some internal hardware, 30-45 day uptimes on average. My experience with driver support, exquisite! When ever I need new drivers for it or my nVidia video card, I can quickly and easily find them

    Btw... did I forget to mention that I'm running Windows?
  • by MooKore 2004 ( 737557 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:34AM (#8338636) Homepage Journal
    Read this. Here is the problem. The kernel developers arent GPL zealots like RMS is, but closed source modules are a problem for them. If a kernel module crashes, and it is the propreitery modules fault, then they can't find out whats wrong and unable to sort out the bug. That is why since 2.6 the kernel developers discourage acccess to the kernel. By opening the drivers, drivers can be more stable on your system.

    To those who say, but Windows DRivers are closed. They are not to the kernel developers. When installing new drivers you may of had a warning that a driver wasnt signed. A signed driver means one that has had its source code audited by MS for bugs, and is more stable than a unsigned one. Microsoft dosent like closed source (unsigned) drivers, and will warn you if you try to install it.

    So if you want a stable Linux, don't load closed source modules into it. Dont take unstabllity for short term hardware support over stabillity in the long term. Encourage companies to open their source, or reverse engineer and stablise their drivers!
  • by lazy_arabica ( 750133 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:45AM (#8338707) Homepage
    Do you remember how much time people had to wait to get a proper nvidia driver working with the 2.6 kernel ? We had to use an unofficial patch, which brought many problems with ACPI, was incompatible with many configurations, etc.

    What's is interesting in Linux kernel, is that the driver API is always changing ; backward compatibility has little or no importance in the development. Enterprises developing proprietary drivers are not very responsive to these changes. Having GPL'd drivers included in the kernel permits to adress problems quickly and efficiently.

    Testing and review is the strength of Free Software.
  • by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:46AM (#8338711) Homepage
    There is room for both open and closed software in this world.

    Yes there is. That does not mean that the choice is value neutral, however.

    The licensing of the relevant code is a part of the feature set just as much as the checklist items for the hardware is. It is another item that the customer needs to evaluate and contrast with competing offerings.

    This is why the anguished cries of some manufacturers against governments requiring open source rings so hollow. Just as a customer can require for instance Word file import capability, or three year installation and upgrade support, they can require open source compatible licensing. It is another feature that may carry more or less importance depending on the customer.

    So, if someone says they will not consider hardware without open source drivers, that just means they, for various reasons, value the feature of open source relatively highly, and are ready to pick another supplier to get the feature they want. Note that it really is not just about whether open source or proprietary software is better; the licensing is in itself one (sometimes major) factor in determining the "betterness" of a piece of software.

  • by gladbach ( 527602 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:47AM (#8338715)
    and now they are in the kernels, and pretty much edged out the eepro100 drivers for intel nics.

    So, even if they are originally released as proprietary, who cares, I bet the source will sooner or later be released.

  • by Homology ( 639438 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:48AM (#8338723)
    No, it will probably be the opposite. As Linux grows in popularity, you'll see more and more vendors shipping proprietary drivers for their products. That's not a bad thing unless OSS is your religion.

    It's quite a bad thing, irrespective of religion, if the vendors don't release enough documentation of the devices to make open source drivers. We'll end up in a situation where it'll be difficult to install Linux/*BSD on a machine whithout proprietary drivers. As an example, for the NForce chipset I've to buy a NIC due to lack of driver.

    As documentation goes, Intel network division is very bad : they release GPL drivers, but no documentation is given (without NDA). That makes it difficult to make good open source drivers. And now the same company wants us to accept more and more hardware components with only a vague promise of drivers, much less documentation?

  • by Uggy ( 99326 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:49AM (#8338732) Homepage
    I disaggree. The problem with proprietary drivers is they never keep pace with OSS development, hell, I can't even submit a patch before somebody else has done it nearly 99.9% of the time. Things just move too fast.

    You want to upgrade to new fancy-schmancy kernel 2.7.x and you can't because your CPU-centr-a-yummy needs 2.6.x to install properly. They never keep up or give anything more than half-assed support. I had an nVidia TNT2, and I gave up on nVidia stuff, because I hated being locked in to THEIR schedule... and it crashed a lot, would corrupt the video (you could log in remotely though) and the only thing I could do was reset. I moved on.
  • by BlackHawk-666 ( 560896 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:50AM (#8338738)
    What sort of "insistance" are you practising here when you are openly admitting that you use one of the prime offenders in the binary driver category? I'd say it's more like you "prefer" open source drivers but will take whatever you can get. That puts you squarely in the same boat with the others who don' really care if the driver is open or not, as long as it exists and they can use their hardware.
  • Re:Big Hurdle (Score:3, Insightful)

    by egghat ( 73643 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:51AM (#8338743) Homepage
    I deeply deeply second that.

    (That's the main reason why the Linux desktop will take off on the corporate desktop first (if at all). Every good administrator looks for unified hardware in a big company. Checking if Linux is OK is simple. With 100 different computer configurations you will always find combinations that won't work with Linux (but of course work with Windows (at least kind of work ...). Think of laptops (Centrino), think of 802.11g WLAN, ... )

    bye egghat.
  • by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:57AM (#8338782) Homepage Journal
    Centrino? You mean 802.11b-onna-chip?

    That is so 15-minutes-ago.

    802.11g is all-the-rage, there are proprietary (I cannae give ye much more, cap'n) extensions to g which give it even more KickAss throughput and already Intel even are trying to jumpstart "more wireless speed than you would know what to do with" mode AKA UltraWideBand based technologies.

    Somebody releasing half-assed (in the sense that we have to rely on them to provide timely updates, because it's not open source) drivers for last-years wireless technology is not in any sense of the phrase "stuff that matters".

    On this kind of timescale I expect we're soon going to have our own OpenSource (we worked it out for ourselves, thanks for nothing) drivers.

    Intel is a large enough company making enough profit that they could easily afford to provide current-and-up-to-date drivers for their wireless technologies as they release them not whenever they're no longer busy doing "important stuff".

    Intel, you're half-assed. Period.

    Behind the 8-ball when it comes to 64bit (busily playing catch-up to AMD) and can't be bothered getting out drivers for your technologies.

    Here's a clue
    • hardware with drivers sells more units
    • more sales = more profits

    Intel, please just plain get up off your fat hairy ass and deliver drivers (we'll live with proprietary if you insist) as soon as the hardware is available on the shelf and provide timely updates for new OS releases (dammit man, it's not like we're releasing a new MAJOR kernel every month) Yours truly The Community (aka Your Customers)
  • by jimicus ( 737525 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @09:57AM (#8338784)
    I'll probably get modded to hell for this, but hey...

    With Open Source drivers, if the hardware manufacturer stops supporting your hardware/OS & stops shipping drivers it doesn't matter. If the kernel radically changes and incorporates new features which you need, you don't have to wait for the hardware manufacturer to produce updated drivers.

    Most of these are things which you don't need to worry about today, when you can just go to the website & download drivers. How about tomorrow?

  • by bigmoosie ( 574165 ) <davisrr@norwich.edu> on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:00AM (#8338809) Journal
    Open source is the way to go for software, but it may not be the best way for hardware. There is far fewer hardware makers than software makers. If somebody doesn't like the closed source software somebody has already made an open source version. If somebody doesn't like the hardware being closed source then they can use a different peice of hardware. The only problem with that is there is a limited ammount of hardware for some applications.

    Let companies provide us with their drivers in any form that they choose. Chances are they will be better than using wrappers or an opensource driver that does not utilize the full capability of the hardware.

    I have already paid for my hardware, be it new or used. If I can't find a driver to use it under Linux or *BSD then I won't buy it. I can't afford a license for a competing operating system, as a result I can't afford some hardware. With intel supporting hardware under linux this give me and many other college students a break on our wallets. Now all we need to do is purchase our student copies of Codeweavers Crossover office (www.codeweavers.com) and MS Office if needed. I have a database class and all the databases are Access so I need MS Office to make sure my databases are 100% like the professors. I would use an opensource program but sometimes they don't save the database correctly.

    So let the hardware companies support linux in any way they choose. It makes Linux look more attractive to the average user or company. The more users, the more (and better) software out there.

    ~ryan
  • by BlackHawk-666 ( 560896 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:01AM (#8338814)
    And then you can vote with your wallet and show these companies that you care about having open source drivers. It's really simple; if they supply open source drivers then consider buying their hardware, otherwise, don't.

    The people who don't care can do what they like at purchase time and they should have the ability to get their closed source drivers so they can use Linux too. It's all a stepping stone to going completely open source. That's not to say closed source should ship with the kernel, because it shouldn't - that position is reserved for open source only.

  • by Bandman ( 86149 ) <bandman.gmail@com> on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:03AM (#8338829) Homepage
    I believe that ideas like this, the parent, are the kind of ideas which halt progress. Their cries of "All or Nothing!" will much more frequently bring nothing than all that they ask for. This is what is known as a compromise. They knew that in an ideal world, we would like the full source code to the intel (and NVidia) drivers, however due to their corporate stance, they are unable to comply, due to their need to protect their shareholders and their IP. Instead of ignoring the userbase as 80% of the other hardware companies do, they instead make a peace offering. "We can't give you the full open source, but what we can do is let you use our device by giving you drivers written by the same organization who created the card". How many windows drivers are open source? Do you think that they have the ability to check their code? You mention that when you have to powercycle your box (every 2 weeks), it's the closed-source NVidia graphics card that causes it. That's so sad, I could cry for you. Reboot your computer every 2 weeks because you can't look at the source code of the driver for your top of the line video card. Other people tied to other operating systems should be so lucky. Stop whining, grow up, and learn how the real world works.
  • by 10Ghz ( 453478 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:05AM (#8338841)
    100FPS on Quake2 is pretty bad IMO. It's an old game. Hell, people get over 300FPS on Quake 3 these days!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:05AM (#8338848)
    You can't have it both ways. Either all you have is open source and you scare off a lot of commercial interests, or you have to live in a mixed open/closed environment. Do you want support for the most hardware on your box? Do you want desktop Linux to succeed?

    Intel, NVidia, etc. have spent millions of US$, Euros, etc. developing their hardware and software. They need a competitive edge to their products (real or imagined). If they can protect their interfaces, at least for a short period of time, they can stay ahead of the competititon (or try to).

    On the other hand, Open Source including Linux needs the broadest support possible. Restricting the O/S to only closed drivers will scare traditional companies away (and already has in come cases, think Canon printers). It will limit the accessibility to state of the art HW and SW. Much of the performance gains in modern hardware are due to the software drivers (graphics comes to mind). If you give away all your software, you weaken your position in the market and it can affect your bottom line.

    The primary objective of a company is to maximize shareholder's wealth. Put these problems in this context.

    Linux is the best thing out there. Mozilla and OpenOffice rock. I love open source (free and otherwise) software and support it whenever I can. However there is a market for state of the art hardware (Nvidia) and software (Intel compiler, Oracle database, high-end applications, etc.). We live in a mixed environment.

    Do you want to be paid as a programmer? Do you want to have some worth to your products? There is a strong market for commercial, closed software (specialized software, industrial databases, custom solutions, high-end games). Not all can be free and open, nor should it be. It is far harder to make money on just services. Do you want programmer jobs to go to India like the mass of consumer hardware now made in the far east? Are the US and Europe becoming consumers and service organizations with few products of our own?

    I can't resist mentioning Microsoft in this context. Much of what they do is now a commodity (operating system: use Linux, word processing/presentation/spreadsheet: use open office, servers: use Linux/BSD with Samba, etc.). They are the competition in the desktop, server, and embedded spaces. They are getting scared (think trapped beast). How can we compete with Microsoft with their nearly 100% (until recently) closed products? By working with vendors that can't or won't open their products. By getting commodity and older product drivers released (for example Canon printers - hint, hint). By working with hardware/software vendors on state of the art drivers but letting them keep their core IP if it helps them with a competitive edge (and gets us drivers).

  • Mmmm.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by NicolaiBSD ( 460297 ) <spam@van d e r s m a gt.nl> on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:06AM (#8338850) Homepage
    ZDNet UK is reporting that Intel has promised to increase Linux support by releasing Linux drivers at the same time it releases Windows drivers for its hardware.

    Pingla writes in with more good news: "Intel promises to release Linux drivers for its Centrino chipset at the same time it releases drivers for Windows.

    OK, that first piece of news is nice, but the second one really gets my heart racing.
  • Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:06AM (#8338852)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:**SIGH** (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:06AM (#8338855) Homepage
      1. Sadly, the Centrino support will most likely be a proprietary driver, but it's better than nothing.

      Who the hell cares besides RMS? I love using my machine and it has an nVidia card in it. I don't care that their "driver" is closed source, I can play a lot of heavy duty games with it.

    [Raises hand] While I am not dogmatic about it, there are a few serious practical concerns about closed source drivers;

    Can't use them out of the box; it's another set of steps.

    1. Except for propriatory drivers, most hardware is well supported under any distribution you have. There
    2. is no seperate installation step or set of directions you need to follow for the open source parts!

    The closed drivers tend to be flaky.

    1. Nvidia has done a great job with this, though it has taken well over a year to reach a point where they are stable. Few other drivers I use -- silently and without hassles -- have stability problems at all.

    There are few reasons *not* to go with open source...and quite a few reasons not to.

    1. Hiding shoddy code or protecting 3rd party licenced parts are the only reasons not to release the source.
    2. Allowing the code to be reviewed and fixed, having nearly automatic support for non-x86 CPUs, having a much wider user base, and simple good will are reasons to release the source.

      In some cases -- and Intel and Nvidia specifically can do this -- a mix of 'firmware' style add-ins limited narrowly to a few 3rd party propriatory parts would probably work. Hiding the source to protect it from prying eyes isn't a good reason since everyone has debuggers and disassemblers...so if they want to know they probably already do know how the secret sauce is made and what it does.

  • by 10Ghz ( 453478 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:07AM (#8338862)
    We are talking about vid-cards for crying out loud!
  • by PastaLover ( 704500 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:20AM (#8338967) Journal
    If you have a newer card this won't work and you'll have to use the propietary drivers from ATI itself. So basically, there's no difference with nvidia. About performance: certain extension that are in the ATI card aren't supported by the free drivers (not by fault of the author off course) which is why the "qualitative" performance is never as good as the speed. eg. you'll have some games which display lots of graphics glitches ( like big amounts of white ). A third point I'd like to point out is that I also have an ATI card and I _never_ got the damn thing to work with my chipset (via kt400) for agp support which has been a known issue for months now and ATI still hasn't done anything about it (or not anything that I noticed). So yeah, when it comes to linux support, use nvidia.
  • by SubtleNuance ( 184325 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:24AM (#8338997) Journal
    Well, OSS is not a religion. But remember RMS started GNU because of just this -- closed source printer drivers.

    What Intel is doing is doubly bad:

    1) They are releasing a Closed Driver, killing future development, growth and porting of support to future systems.

    2) Really only doing this to spite Lin--s. They are doing this to STOP Lin--s' open-source driver development.... probably not because they want to. Why couldnt they have been forthcoming "we are working on a driver. we intend to release it first qtr 2004. we are making it closed." Why keep the FreeSoftware universe in the dark..? Because they want to hold all the marbles, withholding information is dishonesty. Plain and simple. If you want to be 'trusted', keep no secrets.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:34AM (#8339065)
    Not only that, there is also the question of whether you're hardware is still supported in the kernel version a few years from now.
  • by Apreche ( 239272 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:36AM (#8339078) Homepage Journal
    but I stayed away from the Nforce chipset due to the ongoing support problems it has had.

    I have an Abit NF7-S with DDR400 RAM, an XP 2500+ CPU and a GeForce FX5900 at 8X AGP. I dual boot Windows XP(games) and gentoo 2.6(everything else).

    I have no problems. Anyone who does have problems just isn't doing it right. Absolutely all of my hardware works perfectly in both oses. Yours should too. My SATA even works now because of 2.6. I think I'll up it to 2.6.3 next week :)

    And who cares if drivers are OSS or not? Are you really going to be modifying your video driver? Even if you are, can you do it better than NVidia, the people who make the chip? I doubt there are security holes in it that need fixing or hidden spywares in it. Most of the advantages of OSS don't come into play when making drivers. In fact, I think that OSS would be a disadvantage with drivers. And as long as the binary drivers are free as in beer it doesn't affect me either way.

    Benefit to me of using binary driver - computer works fast. Caveat to me.... none.

    Benefit to me of using OSS driver - computer works fast. Caveat to me.... less fast, not all features implemented perfectly.

    I however do admit I use forcedeth, why? Well because its easier to setup, just a kernel config option, and it works just as fast. I don't think that will ever happen with video card drivers.
  • by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2@earthsh ... .co.uk minus bsd> on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:55AM (#8339243)
    But there is something very morally wrong with proprietary software. RMS and co. have already written plenty about it; I have little to add, save that I feel it is one of my fundamental human rights to examine and improve on the source code for any software of my choice -- and if I do not agree to others exercising a similar right over any software I may write, then my remedy is limited to not writing that software in the first place.

    Back in the days of drum memories, computer manufacturers would often offer you software gratis -- in return for which, you were expected to offer them something you had written, so they could pass it around to their other customers. This was a form of policed open source. With no such things as high-level languages, there was no distinction between source and binary; one line of assembly language translated directly to one word of machine code. Experienced programmers could read the ones and zeros as ups and downs on an oscilloscope screen and understand them as an instruction.

    Then, somehow, sometime it all got stuffed up, when people began trying to treat ideas as property and earn money by litigation .....
  • by rjkm ( 145398 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @10:58AM (#8339278)
    Last march I bought a Centrino notebook, only because chipset support seemed to be there, powerstep looked about to be implemented AND wireless LAN drivers were promised to be released very soon by Intel. Now, almost a year later, still no wireless driver and they still say "real soon now". I guess I am too gullible.
    Oh, I also believed them that their crap keeps cool. Even at 600MHz (instead of 1300) and doing nothing this thing gets freaking hot and makes lots of noise.
    I am MUCH happier with my Crusoe (Toshiba Libretto) notebook. I guess my next one will be an Efficeon.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @11:12AM (#8339397)
    You've missed a big point why you often need OSS drivers. Linux isn't just a single kernel version on IA32; the driver needs to be built for the architecture and (unfortunately) for the kernel version you are using. While they could (but apparantly choose not to) fix the latter, supporting different architectures will probably always require recompiling (unless someone feels like putting a java interpreter in the kernel?). While for some devices this is irrelevant (good luck installing your AGP video card in an SGI or SPARC), why _wouldn't_ you want your printer or USB devices to work regardless of architecture?
  • by rcw-work ( 30090 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @11:19AM (#8339453)
    If Intel's choices boil down to "release a binary driver or ignore Linux", which realistically, they do

    No. Full stop, no.

    • Knowing how to drive a car does not mean I, myself, can build another just like it.
    • Knowing how to replace a light bulb does not mean I can make one myself.
    • Knowing how to read a map does not mean I am a cartographer.
    • Knowing how to drive the roads does not mean I can repave Rome in a day.

    On the contrary, all of those examples show how I am more likely to use and buy a product if I know how to use it.

    If I could look at a product's manuals, and from that, figure out how to copy the product, then you can be quite certain I knew 99% of what I needed to know to make such a product beforehand.

    For example, if I hand you a black box that takes two numbers as input and outputs a third, and you deduce that it's a multiplication box, you knew everything you needed to know to make a multiplication box before I even handed it to you.

    On top of this, if you simply copy a competitor, you're a year behind them and dead meat anyway.

  • by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @11:22AM (#8339467)
    It seems Linus choses the best/most elegant solutions on a purely technical basis rather than non-technical issues such as market forces. He's an engineer not a salesman and there are others, e.g. RedHat, to do that marketing/integration stuff anyway. He probably doesn't even care about supporting users outside the 'hacker set'. This approach means we get the technically best kernel faster and it's uncompromised by marketing issues. Linux is apparently still not intended for non-technical users, THANK GOD. I'd hate to see Linux adopt the same dumbing-down and locking-away approach that Microsoft have in order to appeal to the mass market, i.e. an IQ of 85 and no technical ability. Can you imagine Linux asking you if you really want to rename a file with a different extension?
  • by swv3752 ( 187722 ) <[moc.liamtoh] [ta] [2573vws]> on Friday February 20, 2004 @11:48AM (#8339735) Homepage Journal
    What happens tomorrow when the Manufacturer decides that old hardware X is no longer cost effective to support in new Kernels?

    You now have the choice of ditch X and replace with something else (if it is even available.) Do not upgrade and eventually left in a situation of either ignoring security updates or backporting them yourself. Or write your own driver for X.

    I put together a Web server for a charity once out of a bunch of old spare parts. There was a K6-2 CPU and MOBO (witha bad parallel port) , an old 10baseT ISA NIC, an 8GB HDD, an 2GB HDD, and an ISA Video card. While a junky computer, it works and with Linux was stable. If any of those components had Proprietary drivers we would have been stuck installing some old version of Linux.

    Remember Corel WPO? No longer works on any modern distro. That pretty much sucks. Same sort of thing will happen with proprietary drivers.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 20, 2004 @11:53AM (#8339790)
    Determining whether your WLAN radio is or is not violating regulations isn't easy. It requires special hardware which most users and probably even most kernel developers don't have. If Intel provided open source drivers and thus endorsed third party modifications to the drivers, it could be argued that they provide a system (hardware+software) which is not safe to use. Needless to say, I don't agree with that point of view, but it is something lawyers will have to discuss.
  • by Rick and Roll ( 672077 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @12:04PM (#8339897)
    So, even if they are originally released as proprietary, who cares, I bet the source will sooner or later be released.

    You, sir, are an idiot. Do we really want to get ourselves forced into a corner of using old hardware all the time? I should hope not.

  • by bogie ( 31020 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @12:09PM (#8339933) Journal
    If you want to play the latest games your stuck with these proprietary drivers. This is only tolerated by many in the community because its either use the binaries are don't play the latest games under linux. btw yes I am aware of drivers for ati's older cards. When it comes to linux and gaming nvidia is the status quo.

    Now my main point is this could lead to some problems for us linux users. Like he pointed out its possible in the future that we'll all be stuck with mobo's that don't work unless we load a dozen proprietary drivers. We did without in the 90's and we can do without now. The nvidia, now the Intel, next the VIA chipsets, its a dangerous trend. You tried to deflate his point at the end by saying just the free nv or vesa etc. What about when that's no longer possible?

    The way I see it is this. You should be able to install your OS, have it support your mobo chipset, video card, mouse+keyboard, and ethernet card all with Free software. You should be able to surf the web, get email, use a calendar and contact list, play movies and music, and be able to create Office documents all with Free software. Those are the basics. Anything less is a failure. Right now all of the above is possible. Start throwing in a Nvidia card, a centrino chipset, and the truly Free desktop starts disappearing. Right now its the not the end of the world. But if in the future proprietary binary drivers become the standard a Truly Free Desktop won't exist and there will be no point in using Linux. After all if I need binary drivers for my hardware like in Windows and I continue to use all of my Windows apps via WINE, wtf is the point? Just stick with Windows and the closed source model. Throwing an opensource kernel on top of all that proprietary software is a lost cause.
  • by ncr53c8xx ( 262643 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @12:11PM (#8339964) Homepage
    I say that this is Linus's fault because it's well-documented that the moving-target API's are his clear decision.

    He says so repeatedly in his posts, so it's not like it is a secret.

    And it's a bad decision.

    No you are wrong here. As a practical matter binary drivers lead to buggy unstable kernels. The people writing these drivers have no contact with or support from experienced kernel developers due to the closed nature of the process, and code quality suffers. And people posting about binary drivers waste everyone's time, including their own.

    Until the driver API is stabilized, Linux is going to have a hard time finding users outside the hacker set.

    Linux has a lot of users outside the "hacker set". Did you miss the part about Linux overtaking MacOS and it's current share of the server market?

  • by beakburke ( 550627 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @12:24PM (#8340088) Homepage
    The problem with closed source drivers are
    1. Time lag and
    2. Platform support

    How about putting proprietary interfaces in firmware instead. That way it can be updated, and open source drivers don't tell you anything valuable about the hardware IP. I don't mind proprietary firmware but frankly, its the reason I bought a radeon 9000 instead of an nvidia card for my linux box.

  • One idea (Score:3, Insightful)

    by phurley ( 65499 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @12:52PM (#8340329) Homepage
    Proprietary drivers are not optimal, but they may become a fact of life for newer hardware. Too much of the functionality of many devices (and therefore their advantage in the marketplace) is now in the drivers.

    One novel approach would be for the company, in this case Intel, to produce a binary driver and place the source code in some form of trust, to be released when they no longer support the driver or the company no longer feels that the source code would provide an advantage to other companies.
  • by gr8_phk ( 621180 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @01:00PM (#8340401)
    "The concensus seemed to be that a driver written specifically *for* linux is a derrivative work and therefore must be GPL'd."

    Never heard anything so stupid. You mean all software written for a particular OS is a derivative work of that OS? Nonsense. Even the LGPL states (within the license itself) that it is legally unclear and therefore it explicitly allows it (the whole point of the license). This is like trying to ban reverse engineering. You need to reference header files when you compile to ensure compatibility - not because you're creating a derivative work. Now using those data structures in your code - not just for the interface to outside code - might be creating a derived work.

  • by dave420-2 ( 748377 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @01:17PM (#8340549)
    And if people like you keep shunning companies when they try and help you out, you're going to be stuck with NOTHING.

    Seriously, get off your high-horse and appreciate what they're doing. Just because open-source means so much to you, don't assume it means the same to anyone else.

    Damn I'm in a cranky mood :-P sorry!

  • FCC regs (Score:4, Insightful)

    by man_ls ( 248470 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @01:17PM (#8340550)
    It is likely that Intel cannot release an OSS driver, if the driver itself controls a large portion of the radio hardware. This is probably the case, in situations I've used Centrinos -- the CPU useage is notibly higher when using the WiFi hardware then when not.

    Software access to the radio control portion of the system would mean users could adjust the frequency and power output of the system -- something which would run them afoul of FCC regulations requiring that equipment of this nature be fixed and not changeable by the end user. And, the FCC would not take kindly to this. Both Intel, and the modifying user, could be liable.
  • by dave420-2 ( 748377 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @01:20PM (#8340574)
    But you suffer from drawbacks, such as manufacturers not wanting to release anything in open-source drivers that cost them millions to develop. If you just stick to GPL'd drivers, you can only get drivers for a small amount of hardware. Sad, but true.
  • by spitzak ( 4019 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @01:25PM (#8340609) Homepage
    There is NO WAY they are liable! If they were, then manufacturers of diodes could be liable, since it is trivial to use their devices to violate FCC regulations.

    In fact they should be more liable for a closed-source version that may, becuase of a bug, violate FCC regulations. Possibly they fear this sort of information being discovered and this is yet another of the real reasons they don't release the drivers.

  • by 7-Vodka ( 195504 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @02:38PM (#8341410) Journal
    "This is part of the problem with linux and linux acceptance. There are always zealots who are not happy with what they get. Intel is offering these people linux drivers and their response is to say they're not legal?"

    1. There is no problem with linux acceptance. I defy you to show me one, or to even prove that such acceptance is necessary to me.
    2. It's funny how to me, it is you who come off sounding like a zealot. Calling people names and stuff does that.
    3. We are not bound to be grateful to intel for releasing half-assed binary-only drivers. And even if we had something to be grateful for, it would not alter the fact that the legality of these drivers is important.

    "I can't imagine any court upholding that writing a driver for an operating system must comply with the OS's licenses."

    That's fine, but you havent read the LKML so I'm not sure how you can possibly disagree without even reading the argument for the other side of which you seem totally ingnorant.

    "Pick your battles folks. Pissing off potential allies is never a good practice even if you're right."

    Picking your battles is good advice. However pissing off people or not is way way down on the list of concerns for most of us then actually making sure that our system of free software stands on firm legal ground and is protected. Ignore licensing issues at your own peril, they are important and they matter. The law, the courts and therefore law inforcement says so.

  • by rcw-work ( 30090 ) on Friday February 20, 2004 @03:04PM (#8341727)
    Giving away their shnazzy algorithm that's three times as fast as any other technique is just dumb

    Algorithms? Techniques? Sheesh. Look at the average C header file or a reference document for some trivial microprocessor some day. It's mostly enumerations of functions and constants, with explanations for each one. That's the level of information we need, and historically, vendors who care about their customers give it to them for the asking.

    It's as much "moving this bit over there" as posting this comment to slashdot is "moving this bit over there" - but we wouldn't be having this discussion right now if TCP/IP, HTTP, and HTML were undocumented and released as some binary-only implementation.

    Who cares about their optimizations? We're smart, we can figure that out ourselves.

  • by SocietyoftheFist ( 316444 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @04:42AM (#8348084)
    Must be why Intel has been writing software for Linux for several years now(including arguably the best compiler available for Linux). Did you just get off the boat?

Real Programmers don't eat quiche. They eat Twinkies and Szechwan food.

Working...