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Microsoft Software Linux

Microsoft Sends Linux Survey 1051

GnrlFajita writes "According to Newsforge, Microsoft is sending Linux users a survey asking why they use Linux, and what can be done to make Windows better. The article suggests taking the survey (or surveys, one for business users and one for home users), then sharing your answers with others in the community." Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
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Microsoft Sends Linux Survey

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  • by RussHart ( 70708 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:06PM (#7780366) Homepage
    ...how about fully documenting all protocols and formats used (under a nice license) so that people can make products interoperable?
  • Free as in Beer (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Malicious ( 567158 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:08PM (#7780384)
    How about making Windows Free?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:11PM (#7780414)
    Windows 2000 and Windows XP are superior to anything Linux for home users. Here is an opportunity to ask Linux users why they use Windows, and what can be done to make Linux better.
  • My answers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cluge ( 114877 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:12PM (#7780417) Homepage
    Dear Mr MS Marketing,

    I use linux because

    1. I expect to own software I pay for
    2. I expect software I pay for to work as advertised
    3. I expect not to be foreced into downloading other components I don't want of said software to keep my machine secure. (IE media player has to be downloaded to make explorer secure)
    4. I expect to not be forced to give up all and any reasonable legal rights when I open the package.
    5. I do not want to deal with software that guarantees via the liscence agreeement that the publisher can remotely look at my computer at will.

    As soon as the law makers get their opposable digit out of their anal orpheus, and restore a modicum of protection to consumers I don't have any faith that any of the points that I have outlined above will be addressed. Lets face it, you pay for the software, break open the box, and you have no legal expectation that the software will work, in any way shape or form.

    AngryPeopleRule [angrypeoplerule.com]
  • by Flamesplash ( 469287 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:13PM (#7780430) Homepage Journal
    it's called marketing outsourcing.
  • by Janek Kozicki ( 722688 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:14PM (#7780433) Journal
    number of CPUs
    please select from:
    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8


    anyone saw a mobo with 5 CPU slots?
  • by glassesmonkey ( 684291 ) * on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:18PM (#7780483) Homepage Journal
    You Must Enable Cookies...

    In order to take this survey, you must enable cookies on your browser. It's easy to do - just follow these simple instructions.
    Haha! They are so clueless, they don't even have instructions for Mozilla [mozilla.org] !! I thought, wouldn't it be awesome for them to see the UA strings being non-microsoft, then saw their moronic cookie notice for IE 6.0/5.5/5.0/4.1/4.0 or Netscape 4.0+... (I kinda feel sorry for them being so out of touch)
  • I found this odd. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jafo ( 11982 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:22PM (#7780525) Homepage
    Several of our local users groups got copies of this message. The message in part says that their goals are to find out where "Microsoft should be focusing on to help our customers over the next".

    This makes me wonder about the integrity of their claims, because it's hard to imagine that anyone at Microsoft believes that the best way to reach their customers is via Linux Users Groups. So, if that's not really their intention, what ARE they trying to do?

    One of the guys in our local user's group, Anthony Earl, suggested that we give them some ideas that will slow them down, like strict security on the desktop. James DeWitt suggested "Clippy, only MUCH BIGGER!" Sean

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:25PM (#7780549)
    I writing an app. I'm using the SAPI voice/telephony SDK that Microsoft gives away. I'll be able to open Office documents using Office via COM. I'll be using a large number of other things like ADO via COM.

    Microsoft (and others) publish their interfaces to their COM objects. Why exactly do I need the source? (Keeping in mind that even if I fixed the OS on my machine, getting the patch to all machines, like my customers', would be a bear.)

  • by tsa ( 15680 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:28PM (#7780573) Homepage
    Come on, MS reads /. too. If they don't know why we don't like them by now they will never get better.
  • by wo1verin3 ( 473094 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:29PM (#7780581) Homepage
    Regardless of what business you are in, knowing the competition, and what they do better then you is important. I think this survey is kind of interesting, for MS to be saying 'Hey Linux has our attention and some of our target market likes it better, lets find out why'.
  • by arkhan_jg ( 618674 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:29PM (#7780586)
    On top of that, there's at least one mistake in the format of the survey.

    When entering processor speed, 1.1Ghz to 2Ghz is two options.

    The whole thing just feels somewhat unprofessional and hacked together. The options just don't gel.

    Given the amount of time and effort real marketing men put into surveys (and I've been on the wrong end of far too many), it just doesn't feel like something microsoft would put out.

    Plus, they would normally use microsoft.com to do the survey; http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/communi ty/centers/management/surveys/sus_survey.aspx
    for example. Or, they'd contract out to a survey company, which is their normal route.

    I smell hoax.
  • by pirhana ( 577758 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:31PM (#7780604)
    >> But seriously, we all complain about MS's problems, now we've actually got a outlet to complain to. If you don't speak up now, you really have no room to speak later!

    Its not that microsoft doesnt know their weakness or why people go after linux. They know the reasons behind all these. And people have on so many occasions shown them what is the problem with MS softwares and the business practice followd by MS and why they dont like it. But the response from MS have been less than encouraging at best and bullying at worst. This survey is also, I suspect not something to know the "heart and mind" of linux users and tailor their software according to that. But I would suspect that they will use the informations from such linux studies to look in to ways to CIRCUMVENT these problems in a clever way. MS cannot and will not change their busniess tactics easily. Their entire business culture is build upon un-ethical and shoddy practices. To expect any revolutionary or fundamental change from them is naive at best. They have never even admitted their wrong doing any time despite being found guilty on so many occasions. That itself shows what sort of a mindset the people at the holm of Microsoft does have.
  • Re:doh! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AssClown2520 ( 695423 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:36PM (#7780645)
    If this is really from Microsoft and not a fake, it shows some real interesting trends.
    1. Microsoft is viewing Linux as a real competitor and doing it publicly. This is a smart move by Microsoft IMO.
    2. Isn't this the reason for having competition? When Microsoft has been uncontested on the PC they could dictate to the user what he uses. They could also create a monopoly in the browser market and office market quite easily. (OMG - They did do this! - Netscape & Wordperfect come to mind.)
    3. I hate the FUD and bashing that Microsoft has used in the past. Is this going to stop now?

    Anyway, if this is truly from Microsoft, it is an extremely interesting development.

  • by helix400 ( 558178 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:36PM (#7780647) Journal
    I thought just the opposite. This is what MS needs to do to gain respect. They flat out asked us "Ok, tell us, what do you think, we value your opinions and we want to know." MS has never done this before.

    If MS shows respect and tolerance to the open-source community, it can win over many Linux fans. Too often, they've spread FUD about Linux, and they write off Linux users any chance they can. If they show signs of friendship, and even show interoperability with open-source products, that would lessen many people's hatred of Microsoft.
  • please microsoft... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nuckin futs ( 574289 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:38PM (#7780665)
    I just want to read and write word, excel, powerpoint and access files without having to buy MS Office because it is so expensive.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:44PM (#7780708)
    Microsoft is deliberately seeking information they can use against Linux. They will make use of any unfavorable comments about Linux in their own propaganda.

    The bottom line for me is exactly what you stated. They have a legal statement at the beginning that says they can make use of your answers however they want. Frankly, my comments about both Windows and Linux are professional opinions. People pay me for those. Microsoft explicitly stated that they weren't paying.

    Also, when it comes to a decision about what OS to put on my own hardware, they must discuss it on my terms, not theirs. Here's what Windows would have to have to compete with Linux:

    • Full source code for all Microsoft products released under the GPL.
    • All protocols, APIs and data formats fully documented.
    • All security holes disguised as features closed, permanently, and no new ones added, ever.
    • Dump Trusted Computing. It is about restricting the rights of the end user.
    • A tool set comparable to Linux, free. That is, compilers and interpreters for C, C++, Fortran, Ada, Pascal, Objective C, Prolog, Haskell, Lisp, Perl, Python, Awk, lex, yacc, Basic, etc., etc. Debuggers, libraries, editors, profilers. Libraries for test scaffolding like CppUnit and JUnit.
    • A promise that existing formats will be readable and losslessly convertable to future formats, forever.
    • A repudiation of their old EULAs and conversion of all of them to the GPL.
    • No forced upgrades.
    • No coerced upgrades, where existing users have to plead with people who have already upgraded to jump through hoops to avoid sending unreadable new formats.
    • Choices. Under Linux, I can choose Gnome, KDE, plain X with a variety of window managers etc. I can also choose AbiWord or OpenOffice or many others. I don't want a world where one company maintains a de facto standard and actively hinders anyone else's attempts to interact with it.


    There is nothing to trust about Microsoft.
  • by floop ( 11798 ) * on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:46PM (#7780719)
    Required improvements before I even consider MS a viable competitor on the server:
    • Actually useful shell and supporting commands standard with OS
    • Some MS flunkies will try to argue this but that's only because they've never used a real shell. By double tab I have over 3K programs I could run from the prompt.
    • Scriptable secure remote administration
    • MS telnet doesn't cut it, not scriptable. Rsh service doesn't work and is insecure. WTS isn't scriptable. I have yet to meet an MCSE that knew any VB let alone knew what WMI was for.
    • Ability to actually configure/manage system and services from scripting and command line
    • I hear that you can actuall change all config params in IIS6 through the metabase. I'll believe it when I see it. Ever tried to make changes to the metabase on 100 servers? Ever tried to make changes to httpd.conf on 100 servers?
    • Easily scriptable system installation
    • One word;
      kickstart [redhat.com].

    All of my gripes are related to server use. You want too talk about desktop use, send the survey to OSX users.

  • by bigHairyDog ( 686475 ) * on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:50PM (#7780750)

    This is golden. Right off the survey, written by microsoft employee(s), suggested reasons you might not like M$!

    1. It's cheaper
    2. There is more free add-on software.
    3. Ability to run on old hardware
    4. More secure than Windows
    5. I want to get more Linux experience to help my career.
    6. No need to constantly keep installing updates and fixes
    7. Better performance
    8. Better support for networking standards
    9. Easier to use
    10. Easier to install
    11. Better install and uninstall of additional software and drivers.
    12. No enforced license registration.
    13. Better scripting
    14. Better command line
    15. Better wireless networking support
    16. Easier networking setup
    17. Better TCP/IP version 6 support
    18. Better device and peripheral support than Windows.
    19. Better centralized administration than Windows
    20. Better directory service than Windows
    21. Access to source code
    22. Easier to customize exactly how I want it.
    23. Fewer reboots required with system changes or failures
    24. More intuitive, simpler to understand.
    25. Linux community support.
    26. Easier to find qualified help.
    27. Doesn't require as much detailed expertise.
    28. Can hire skilled Linux experts more inexpensively.
    29. Better reliability.
    30. The satisfaction of not giving Microsoft more money
    31. I don't trust Microsoft.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:52PM (#7780757)
    You have three choices: a) abstain, b) fill out the survey in good faith, c) answer disingenuously and randomly.

    If this survey were actually going to be used to improve Microsoft's _products_, then giving them helpful advice might be fine. But Linux is just one small factor in their long-term product strategy, and your answers aren't going to turn that very large ship around. What this _will_ be used for is marketing. You might well see Linux-user-targeted marketing materials come out of this that mention the top three reasons people have given for being dissatisfied with MSFT products, even if the product itself hasn't been changed at all.

    If you don't want their marketing efforts to combat Linux more effectively, then add some noise to their data. Make random choices from the multiple-choice sections, and write something inoffensive but inaccurate in the essay portions.
  • by Kethinov ( 636034 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:53PM (#7780767) Homepage Journal
    Linux does have bigger problems that Windows. Difficult installers and obscure, overcomplicated package management systems are just the tip of the iceburg. Then we get into all the bugs or missing features that KDE/GNOME have. Like no way to change the screen resolution without editing xf86config in KDE and no way to get a columned list view of files in Nautilus in GNOME.

    Yes, these are bigger problems that Windows doesn't have. In Windows, installation is easy, package management is (now) painless, and there are no major missing features or bugs that can't be solved with either some GUI workaround (as opposed to Linux's often "edit some obscure config file") or a quaint third party program.

    Despite these problems though if you can muddle through them Linux is still better than Windows. It's filesystems are vastly better written, the kernel is ten times more stable, and best of all it's the most configurable operating system in existence. You can make Linux look any way you want.

    I'm nowhere close to being a guru on Linux. I still can't even make it through a Debian installation (partly because my internet connection sucks). I despise portage and apt-get. RPMs, IMO, would be far better if they didn't suck with their can't solve their own dependencies problem. And worst of all, I have 10 years of experience with Windows. But despite all of this against Linux, I still prefer it over Windows.

    So, as you can see my from my post, it's easy to both critisize and love linux at the same time, and that is exactly what I believe Microsoft is doing.
  • by jonfelder ( 669529 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:53PM (#7780769)
    Did anyone have a problem filling out the survey with Firebird? Whenever I submitted it, it said that I hadn't answered all the questions. Then it highlighted almost all the questions, all of which were answered.
  • by anarxia ( 651289 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:57PM (#7780802)
    I don't use their products so why should I care if they are better or worse? The reason we are complaining is that their security problems affect us (worms flooding networks etc etc). The survey is not about fixing those problems so it doesn't consern me and I am sure they can affort to pay someone to do their market research. We support free speech not free labor.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @03:58PM (#7780808)
    "The whole thing just feels somewhat unprofessional and hacked together. The options just don't gel."

    while your asumption might be true, it may in fact be a hoax, but i have seen surves and microsoft.com and webpages that are just as shaky. for a while there, if youe screen resolution wasn't a certain size thier little javascript floater things in the webpages would overlap the text of the articles and they weren't veiwable, even in IE. they fixed that since then but,...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:05PM (#7780862)
    Dear Convicted Monopolists,

    Back in the 80's you made the decision that you would gain more marketshare by turning the PC hardware market into a commodity market. That is fine. That is a business decision. The open source community is now turning your cash cow market niches into commodities. Furthermore, we are setting the price per unit at as close to zero as we can manage. I don't want to hear a peep out of you about it being unfair. And if you make any claims about your products or open source that aren't true or that are in any way misleading, expect us to challenge them, loudly and in open forums that are not sympathetic to you.

    If you want to sell to us, you will have to recognize one thing: the customer is always right. That applies to every customer, all the time. If you disagree, it isn't our fault. You have repeatedly told the open source community that we are wrong. We told you we don't need you. Retract every lie you have ever told to us or about us. Repudiate them publicly. Then, refund all of the money we've had to pay for hardware that came with Microsoft products we never wanted. After you are done with that, we might be willing to fill out a survey explaining why we don't ever want to use your products and why we look forward to your eventual bankruptcy.

    Sincerely,

    One happy Linux user.
  • by NoMoreNicksLeft ( 516230 ) <john.oylerNO@SPAMcomcast.net> on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:07PM (#7780873) Journal
    #1 Stability - Windows 2000 fixes this, relatively speaking. Still, it wasn't even targeted to me, the home user. Figures.

    #2 Webserver - I've been known to run a website off my cable modem, and while Windows could handle this, the 10 concurrent connections thing is ridiculous. They can't figure out how to license it to make money, without making is useless to me, that's their problem. And don't even get me started on IIS/PWS exploits.

    #3 Command line - It's taken a few years for me to become competent with it... but I never want to go back to the control panel bullshit. I don't why they're so scared of it, short of being ashamed of dos.

    #4 Developer tools - Let's face it, I'll never be a kernel hacker. The little coding I do, does suck, and that will never change. But I can, with so many languages, I couldn't even list them all. And for free. Compare this to $600 for a non-crippled Visual Studio. C'mon... something is wrong here. No provision is made for the hobbyist developer. Trying to wring money out of someone that is constantly broke like I am, or maybe even a teenager, just so they can write little doodad programs, it stinks. Hell, maybe even a crippled VS would do, if it were free. Even command line tools. The only guy I know who can honestly be called a guru, says that he might never have tried linux, if there had been some sort of hobbyist Visual C in win3.11/95...

    #5 You never innovate. Ever. Just steal ideas... I can think of 20 things off the top of my head that windows could improve, if it cared to. For brevity's sake, here's one example: Why can I only copy/paste one thing at a time? I'd much rather have a queue-based copy, so that it doesn't overwrite the last clipboard object. To select which to paste, hold the control, and keep tapping V until my correct paste appears. This is so simple, so obvious, that a loser like me sees it. Why can't the geniuses at M$? And don't even start with the little graphical widget in Office, not only is it Office specific, but it's the wrong idea. Duh.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:15PM (#7780946)
    Last four options in the "rank the reasons you like Linux for the home" section:
    The satisfaction of not giving Microsoft more money.
    I don't trust Microsoft.
    I don't want to use proprietary software.
    I don't want to use commercial software.

    I was almost taking the survey seriously until I saw those options.
  • by Saeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:16PM (#7780956) Homepage
    Oh, and why would Microsoft use surveymonkey.com to run a survey? I've been accosted by Microsoft many times to answer surveys, and they have ALL been HOSTED at a Microsoft site. This whole thing just smells bad.
  • by jdclucidly ( 520630 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:17PM (#7780964) Homepage

    The best reply to this has been one that Jonathan Hutchins posted to our KCLUG mailing list:

    You know, I was going to answer this. I even started to list the main reasons
    why I'm currently converting all of my Windows systems to Linux.

    Then I returned to my senses. Microsoft has made it abundantly clear that it
    views competitors as enemies. Competition is to be smotherd, obliterated,
    discredited, or if all else fails, assimilated.

    So why does Microsoft want to know what makes Linux great? So it can refute
    it, tailoring it's FUD campaigns more carefully? So it can find other
    tactics like it's support of SCO's lawsuits to impede Linux's strengths? So
    it can engineer it's own software to lock Linux systems out, prevent them
    from succeeding in mixed environments?

    We'd all like to believe that it's so it can target those strengths as ways to
    enhance it's own software, but years track record show that even when
    Microsoft does this, it also does the "take away their air" tactics and is
    ultimately more interested in it's own "triumph" than in the advancement of
    technology.

    No, Mr. Surkan, I don't believe you're the kindly uncle who just wants to
    understand us better. Even if your personal motives are pure, even if the
    infomation you collect is used for good, it will also be picked over by the
    best experts in the world for any scrap that can be used against Linux - and
    ultimately against us.



    KC Linux Users Group -- to unsubscribe send mail to majordomo@kclug.org
    Enter without the quotes in body of message "unsubscribe kclug"
  • by mabu ( 178417 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:20PM (#7780990)
    The purpose of the survey is to identify the IP addresses of people, cross-referenced with their feelings about Windows and Linux. As an added bonus, they get a nice identity database of Slashdot users due to this article. They'll log the referer and the IP address along with the survey answers and then they've got a nifty database that includes the physical location and personal information of people online and their level of hostility towards Microsoft. Now the next time you run Windows update, your IP is also logged there, with more direct information on your personal identity. They cross reference this with the survey info and they know: a) who you are, b) where you are, c) if you're a slashdot user and d) how you feel about them and all the other details of the survey. It's a huge privacy issue if you don't have an anonymous IP from which to complete the survey from.
  • by edunbar93 ( 141167 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @04:42PM (#7781151)
    Maybe, if they've been paying attention to the infinite number of rants out there on the web, they'd already know the reasons why, instead of groping around in the dark. Slashdot is but one source of information about Why We Don't Like Windows. This looks like more of a PR move than anything, something they can point at and say "Look! We're trying to listen to the consumers here!" It's like the government holding a referendum once the populace have been openly revolting.

    At any rate, if they truly want to know why I don't like Windows and why I as a sysadmin would refuse to run it on any of our servers, here it is (again):

    • Our customers hate downtime. The time it takes to reboot a server counts as downtime. Therefore, I shouldn't have to reboot the server just to change a few settings, I should at most only have to restart the service, and I should expect that that will only take about 3 seconds at most.
    • When my boss pays $4000+ for a piece of software, he actually expects it to work as promised, he expects to be able to rework it to fit his peculiar needs, and do it without waiving all legal rights by opening a box that could very well be filled with air.
    • I would like it very much if you would stop introducing spectacularly huge, spectacularly obvious, and spectacularly stupid security holes into software that comes with Windows (or in Windows). There's only, oh, a billion people using Outlook Express, and yes, if by default you automatically run any and all attachments that come in e-mail from un-trusted parties, you're going to have a few viruses.
    • The corallary of this of course is "don't create a scripting language for e-mail please." It's not the hacker's fault for taking advantage of the security holes any half-baked 12 year old with two brain cells to rub together can see. Would you trust an engineering company that built bridges which could be toppled by any miscreant with a rowboat and a can of spray paint?
    • Real sysadmins use a command line. As a result of this, they can work real magic instead of just keeping things going. You have been actively taking steps backwards with your command line.
    • I want to be able to run programs automatically in the middle of the night and make them do whatever I want them to. With Windows I can't even use the CD player to act as an alarm clock. This is a result of having a crappy command line and windows programs that don't use command line switches.
    • What do you think historians will think of .doc format? I like open formats thank you very much.

    I'm not going to submit it to their damn survey. I'd rather do it this way. It's called an open letter. But then I guess they just don't like *anything* that's open.
  • by Pharmboy ( 216950 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:04PM (#7781287) Journal
    True story:

    I took the survey on my windows xp notebook, answered truthfully, and when I clicked "done", IE crashed, and closed all IE windows instantly. No error messages, nothing, just desktop.

    I am not sure if this is Microsoft saying "screw you then, go ahead and migrate" or if this is yet more evidence as to WHY I am migrating to begin with.
  • by Gorobei ( 127755 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:04PM (#7781295)
    Interesting. I think Linux's documentation is actually better than Microsoft's. If an app is giving me a problem, I can usually just cut and paste the text/log message into Google and either get a solution or find out what I'm missing. I know that's a loose definition of documentation, but it's documentation none the less. When XP's wizards fail to troubleshoot a problem I'm having (which is 95% of the time,) I'm SOL with no idea what to do next. The only success I've had using Google to debug a Microsoft product was when Mech Commander 3 wouldn't start due to a bad copy protection scheme - someone in Europe had been kind enough to post a fix for that.
  • by Mondain98 ( 562481 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:07PM (#7781319)
    We all know that 99% of the people on /. would rather rant about MS from afar than actually fill in the survey and attempt to change anything.

    I see lots of people posting their comments here; why not just fill out the survey? Are you afraid that MS might take your ideas and *gasp* build their OS better and more secure, adding competition to the market which benefits everyone?

    I'd like to see all you armchair referees tell MS what you really think. MS is literally "asking for it", so tell them their OS sucks and why Linux is better. Isn't this what you always wanted to do?

  • by Trepalium ( 109107 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:20PM (#7781408)
    • Clear, documented interactions between components
    • Error messages that can be traced back to the faulting component, rather than just to the error reporter. (Microsoft crash error messages have become progressively less useful. Windows NT blue screens, and Win95/98 application crash errors were actually useful. Windows XP blue screens, and application crash messages are useless.)
    • Documentation of all registry settings, regardless of if they should be modified manually or not. Most Linux apps have all the configuration settings documented in the appropriate man pages, or when that fails, there's the source code.
    These are the three things that get in my way more often than not when trying to troubleshoot a problem. The answer to format, and reinstall is rarely, if ever, acceptable.
  • by soloport ( 312487 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:26PM (#7781460) Homepage
    Couldn't resist the opportunity:

    How to improve Windows:
    Improve the company that makes Windows: Were we to develop a multimedia product for Linux, we could be far more certain that our Linux vendor would not eventually take over the whole market pie (like a Commie Dictator) by obscuring the API to Linux and using other draconian tactics.

    You have embittered the very people who once rallied to your banner and helped you build a once great product. We don't fear Open Source for any reason; We fear Microsoft.

    How to improve Linux:
    Take over 99.9% of the consumer, embedded, laptop, desktop and server markets -- faster than it has been. Put the Destroyer of free and open computing markets out of business. BTW, this survey feels like being watched by an All Seeing Eye...

    [end]
    (Just felt good to get 5+ years of bitterness off my chest.)
  • by mr_burns ( 13129 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:32PM (#7781511)
    Is this how SCO is going to find out who to sue?

    Nobody's going to tell SCO directly that they are strapped for cash (can't afford licenses or lawyers) so they have a couple thousand linux boxen instead. So MS puts out this 'improve windows' survey to do that job. Then they 'publish' the results to 'select partners' , SCO being one of them.

    Then SCO knows who will be a pushover for setting precedent. Maybe that or get the 'proof' that IBM is able to refute accepted by another judge in another venue.

    In other words, don't fill out this survey unless you've got a few hundred million dollars laying around and the will to spend it on lawyers.

  • by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:43PM (#7781583)
    GPL is a bad licence to begin with. the BSD licence would be a lot better, if they were to adopt anything at all.

    No, GPL is a great license. It's the only way you can get major corporate investment in a Free Software project.

    Look at big companies like IBM and SGI, or small ones like Red Hat. Why do they spend their own R&D dollars improving Linux, and then releasing the source code publicly? Why didn't they do the same thing with a BSD Unix?

    It's because no rational company will willingly release code another company can close on them. With BSD licenses, corporations might use parts of Free Software projects in their work, but would only give out binaries.

    But the GPL license gives them dual motivators: an obligation to release new code as payment for using old, and an assurance that code they do give out won't be turned against them by a competitor.
  • by shaitand ( 626655 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @05:46PM (#7781599) Journal
    ok ok I'll give ya that one. But there is a need for a win32 api implementation on linux.

    I'm not one who feels that apps should use wine rather than be converted to a native implementation, but there are alot of apps which neither have source code available nor a company still around and/or supporting them on the platform they were written for, let alone porting them to linux!

    I mean after all, what is this survey for if it's not to convince microsoft to open it's protocols so that it's easier to make replacement apps and replace windows in every aspect of computing?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:04PM (#7781697)
    I wonder what MS would do if everybody answered the survey like that?

    They would shake their heads, chuckle, and say "So I guess they really are just a bunch of tinfoil-clad malcontents. To hell with them." Then, they'd get back to work and, within the hour, make more money than you ever will.

  • VBA (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:12PM (#7781750)
    Uhm...ever heard of VBA? Where I work it is standard practice to use VBA and excel to write data to EEPROMs using MsComm, which actually works quite well. I would consider this an "advanced" feature of MS Office.
  • by techno-vampire ( 666512 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:13PM (#7781756) Homepage
    Documentation of all registry settings, regardless of if they should be modified manually or not.

    I took that one further. I pointed out that no program should be allowed to change the registry settings for any other program. That makes it much harder for malware to hijack your startpage or for a trojan to change another program's settings to call the trojan.

  • by Zarf ( 5735 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:22PM (#7781804) Journal
    Microsoft could have crushed the Open Source movement if it had given away one of it's development platforms for free. If they had fostered a Java-esque or CPAN-esque software repository... if they had given free SDK's for windows out... if they supported or encouraged the development of free servers, browsers, desktop systems, and support utilities... THEN Microsoft could have crushed the Open Source movement when it was just beginning.

    But, then... it wouldn't be "Microsoft" would it? If Microsoft does these things... will Microsoft keep "Microsoft-like" control over the software market?

    People are lazy. If you could do everything you do now on Linux without having to learn Linux ... would you? Many people say yes, many people say no. Are enough people that are lazy enough to "just stay with Microsoft" developers? Are they a large enough group that they'd cripple the OSS movement?

    I doubt it. But, I think that it's still early enough for Microsoft to do a complete 180 and hold it's market share virtually indefinately. Try this on for size: GNUM, GNUM is Not Unix by Microsoft. I'm sure they'll call it something different.
  • by flogger ( 524072 ) <non@nonegiven> on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:28PM (#7781839) Journal
    What gives? there are a lot of slants in this survey. Look at #10 for the business side:

    10. Rank the importance of server operating attributes to your organization. (1 indicates a preference for low product cost and more administive and end-user time. 5 indicates a high up-front product cost but less user effort)

    What gives? I already use mutiple servers that are FREE: E-Smith [e-smith.org] AND Easy to set up. It takes, honestly, 15 minutes to set up (Includes formatting drives), and 15 minutes to install filters if it will be used as a web proxy. Then I leave it set for 6 to 8 months. It doesn;t get any freer withless effort.

    Yes, you can have it both ways.

  • Microsoft Survey (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:33PM (#7781873)
    We were recently graced(?) by a visit from Microsoft's CFO John Connors. Standing in line for buffet lunch a few of us gladhanded Mr. Connors to ask why MS had to charge so much for just the starter kit tools to be able to even do minimal work, specifically Visual Studio and .NET development tools. We politely explained we were more inclined to learn and work with their technology if we didn't have to invest $2000 (approx) just to write "Hello World". Lunch platter in hand, Mr. Connors graciously, even animatedly listened and discussed this with us, agreeing vigorously, saying at one point (and I paraphrase), "You guys are ABSOLUTELY right! These are very good points! I'm going to look into this! I've enjoyed this conversation!" My peers were impressed, almost giddy! "He listened to us!, He's going to look into this!..." I interjected my doubts, but they were not to be subdued. Mid-afternoon that same day when Mr. Connors had to make his exit, he stood up at the podium, thanked everyone, then said (and I paraphrase here, too), "During lunch, your developers were asking me why Microsoft has to charge so much for our development tools. And it occured to me, Microsoft just happens to be in the business of making money!" True story, but hardly unbelievable. (but, unfortunately, the reason I post this anonymously).
  • by lisany ( 700361 ) <<moc.hodeht> <ta> <todhsals>> on Sunday December 21, 2003 @06:45PM (#7781943)

    Funny, I listed that as the thing they _should_ do. Hell, I don't use Windows - what do I care about the sheep that do?

    What I do care about are the morons who are too inept to update their computers. The morons who are still forwarding about viruses and who are still vulnerable to Code Red. Its those types of users that make me wish Microsoft thought a little less of its users.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @07:03PM (#7782060)
    I can't find a correct answer to this question:

    9. What region are you from?
    USA/Canada
    Africa
    Asia
    Europe
    Middle East
    South America
    Carribean
    Mexico/Central America

    Australia is sort of Asia, but not really. How am I meant to answer this survey if they don't even put an Oceania region to choose from.
  • I smell a rat (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AndyCap ( 97274 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @07:23PM (#7782173)
    This survey does look rather unprofessional. The questions are a tad unbalanced and doesn't really seem well thought out. For instance the two cluster related questions limits you to 8 nodes in your cluster. Also I'm not sure what to make of these questions:

    low price and greater complexity vs little easy setup and administration with high price
    easy setup & lousy administration vs difficult setup and great administration

    since both seem to imply that you can only get one or the other. I don't feel the questions really describes the current situation with Windows vs. Linux in more than a very superficial way. Also I take isssue with the comparison being against 2003 which relatively few people have any experience with yet.
    The alternatives for desktop linux use look random as well.

    My guess is that the survey is either a hoax or some department outsourced a request for information in linux vs windows.
  • A Joke (Score:1, Interesting)

    by bender_is_great ( 718328 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @08:29PM (#7782560)
    As I was reading this article (at work) I was installing Office through Terminal Services on a Windows 2003 Server.
    Opening up Word resulted in an error stating that Word did not have any Office assistants installed on the system
    and that it required at least one to function (or something similiar).

    If stupid random shit like that isn't an excuse to be upset with Windows then nothing is.

  • by DarkVein ( 5418 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @08:40PM (#7782638) Journal
    "As yet I looked upon crime as a distant evil, benevolence and generosity
    were ever present before me, inciting within me a desire to become an actor
    in the busy scene where so many admirable qualities were called forth
    and displayed. But in giving an account of the progress of my intellect,
    I must not omit a circumstance which occurred in the beginning of the month
    of August of the same year.
    Frankenstein's creation is a wordy mofo. (read it for yourself [gutenberg.net])
  • by swillden ( 191260 ) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:01PM (#7782747) Journal

    Even if your personal motives are pure, even if the infomation you collect is used for good, it will also be picked over by the best experts in the world for any scrap that can be used against Linux - and ultimately against us.

    Yawn.

    So what? Who cares? That kind of crap only matters when you're engaged in a typical marketing battle of half truths and outright lies, and F/OSS is essentially immune to that sort of thing.

    Oh, sure, people can be misled for a while, but the truth will come out in the end, and the liar will just look stupid and/or evil. In the commercial world, this sort of thing is often effective because by the time the truth comes out the competition is over, the target has been put out of business and the question is moot.

    But with Linux, there is no target to kill. You can't put Linux out of business, because Linux isn't in business. There are businesses built around Linux, and businesses using Linux, but Linux, itself, is a community, a movement composed of enthusiasts who are not going to be affected by any marketing campaign, no matter how precisely directed.

    And since Linux cannot be destroyed, the most that even the most clever campaign can do is to sow some temporary uncertainty and slow adoption. But, in the end, the truth will become obvious to everyone.

    No, the only way that MS can compete effectively with Linux is to produce a better product. And if they do, that's great! Everyone wins if Windows gets better.

    So, I answered their surveys. I hope they take the responses to heart and work on improving their OS. The key way I told them Windows can be improved is by making it more transparent. One of the advantages of Unix systems is that they use tons of little scripts to glue all of the various bits together, which makes it possible to hook into the OS in various useful ways -- even without modifying the kernel -- and makes it much easier to diagnose and debug problems. For me, Windows, would be a much better OS if it were to do the same.

  • by ndogg ( 158021 ) <the@rhorn.gmail@com> on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:15PM (#7782814) Homepage Journal
    "we use Linux because it is Free as in Speech."

    You could say this in an indirect manner. You could mention, in the section that asks for ways to make Windows better, that Windows would be better if it were "Free as in Speech."
  • Two Words (Score:2, Interesting)

    by landrocker ( 560567 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:28PM (#7782870) Homepage
    Package Selection.

    Make it easy, with options like in some of the linux installers (Anaconda, whatever slackware uses). Have a 'install all', 'install sets', 'expert (select individual packages)'. Divide everything up into logical sets, and make sure that you have to install required components (and I don't mean IE or Windows Media Player). Perhaps have an 'Express Install' option that will install all the basic sets. You should also have the ability to add/remove sets or packages after the install.

    Just my $0.02,
    Landrocker
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:41PM (#7782923)
    I hate to break it to you, but Microsoft has and does currently release software under the GPL. It's called Windows Services for Unix. You pay them money, and they give you a copy of RMS' GNU system ported to Windows, with full GPL compliance.
  • by BanjoBob ( 686644 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:43PM (#7782933) Homepage Journal
    There are just a few reasons to run Linux instead of Windoze.

    1. I can back up and restore the entire box effortlessly. You can't do a full disk backup on Windoze that I know about. There is even a page on the M$ site that says it can't be done.

    2. Security Security Security

    3. Stability Stability Stability

    4. I don't need to reboot after every little change with Linux.

    5. Patches and upgrades don't render existing services and applications broken and require days or weeks to recover.

    That's enough for me to keep using Linux/Solaris/*nix systems.

  • JavaScript required (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:51PM (#7782966)
    I intended to take the survey, but was referred to a page asking me to enable JavaScript in my browser, followed by explicit instructions for Internet Explorer and Netscape. I use Lynx right now. How do I proceed?

    They also try to argue that their JavaScript will be nice to me, and refer me to their privacy policy - a nonexistant page...

    If I have one suggestion for Microsoft, it's for them to stop insisting that my computer should run other people's code without asking me (the user) for permission.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 21, 2003 @09:56PM (#7782994)
    to improve their bottomline as well as acceptance across the board while combatting piracy would be to offer a Windows personality that runs on top of Linux. Wine on steroids.

    Of course, they have all the knowledge about secret APIs and whatever to make their Wine run perfectly with almost all Windows applications. They could just start with a BSD-licenced Wine variant or save time by buying out one of the companies with closed variants.

    This offer would make Linux users stop ignoring sour grapes like unplayable games and applications. It would stop people that don't actually want Windows for reasons other than insufficiently deep pockets from buying Staroffice out of necessity instead of Office. It would certainly not reduce revenue much since most people get their paid Windows versions nowadays as OEM on new machines, and new machines would probably come without a perfect Wine which would have to be paid for separately.

    And if people acquired the perfect Wine from Microsoft, they might be more inclined to actually buy instead of pirate further software, if you want to call copying, checking that it does still not run satisfactorily under Wine, and forgetting about it "pirating" in the first place.

    The next step of lethal embracing would be to make a later generation Windows as distributed actually run on top of Linux instead of standalone. They would get enterprise-level operating system and security features and performance for free. They could compile their Linux kernel with proprietary compilers that would make Microsoft Linux run quite faster on average than Linux kernels compiled elsewhere. They could put code into the kernel that would not compile except when using those proprietary compilers, keeping the main Linux kernel compilations unable to catch up to MSLinux or Lindows (oops, name taken already), even though Microsoft would provide the source of their kernel changes and additions on demand.

    Of course, the favorite Linux distribution would then become Microsoft Linux, since it would come bundled with Microsoft's Windows personality emulator, and since that would be the Linux variant most guaranteed to cooperate with it, even if they sold it separately as well in order to placate antimonopolist laws. But would they be applicable if Microsoft just offers some Linux distribution and a Windows emulator, like quite a few competitors do already?

    Be very, very glad that Microsoft currently only thinks about how to improve Windows rather than Linux. They would have the means to succeed with either. And it's one of my worst nightmares to think about what would happen if they gave the latter a serious try.

    IBM is also a heavyweight, and they have been very careful about how to get involved with Linux, not wanting to kill the goose that is laying golden eggs and opportunities.

    Microsoft would have no qualms in that respect.
  • by mormop ( 415983 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @10:15PM (#7783077)
    1: asking why they use Linux

    It's free, it works and does what I need it to (which is a lot more than 90% of computer users need)without crashing

    and

    2: What can be done to make Windows better

    Make it free, make it work and do what I need it to without crashing.

    Seriously, this is what it boils down to at base level. I have a free OS, free upgrades, I give and receive free support, submit bug reports etc. and I have not needed to use Win98 on my desktop or WinXP on my laptop for anything. People want documents, send them a PDF and I can say all I need to in spreadsheet with OO.org and no macros and it'll open in Excel.

    For me to pay hundreds or thousands of pounds to do the same things I do now with MS would make me either so rich that I don't know what to do with my money or certifiably insane.
  • by FatherOfONe ( 515801 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @10:43PM (#7783177)
    Is it me, or does it seem weird that the URL has nothing to do with Microsoft. It is a hardcoded IP address. Yes it does use .ASP but not .ASPX or whatever the heck that .NET crap is.

    I don't think this is from Microsoft.

    On a somewhat related topic...
    I was contacted by phone, from an outside company (not Microsoft) but sponsored by Microsoft to answer development questions. I was suppose to get $25 for their "brief" survey. I remember the last question.

    "What could Microsoft do to get you to use their software?"

    My anwer
    "GPL all your software"

    I never got my $25... Shocker!!!!
  • by greygent ( 523713 ) on Sunday December 21, 2003 @10:53PM (#7783217) Homepage
    I was very excited to read this. I remember learning programming and wanting to download a C/C++ compiler and I couldn't find a free one for Windows that was free and well documented. This was back in 1996 and I was a poor college student.

    As I said, the .NET Framework is free and contains a compiler for managed code. Microsoft is moving out of the stone age for application development and adopting managed-code development. Nonetheless, I believe there is a basic C/C++ compiler available froms omewhere on MS. If not, there are tons of alternative compilers that can be had for free or low cost (or high cost, if you prefer).

    I would have had to pay $139 for Visual C++ if I wanted to do windows development. Even that was too much. I could barely afford a computer! The reason I learned GNU and OSS software was because I was poor. I stuck with it because I'm a cheapskate.

    Visual C++ is an excellent full-featured IDE, what do you expect? It's so much more than a compiler. This is like asking for a car and then complaining because it doesn't fly. $139 is a pretty damned good price for an IDE of the quality that the Visual Studio suite. Nothing open source matches it in terms of quality and features. I know. I've looked.

    That said, I still use vim for most of my development on Windows.

    So now I hear that MS gives away this stuff! That's great! Where do I download my copy of Visual C++ for free? Where do I download my free windows SDK so I can write windows software?

    Again, Visual C++ is an IDE, not just a compiler. I said the .NET Framework is free, which includes a compiler for any language that hooks into .NET.

    As far as SDKs, what do you want to do? There are tons of SDKs (As well as DDKs for driver development) available for free off of MSDN.


    Now if Microsoft had been giving away this stuff from the beginning (like I said) then they would have prevented droves of lazy programmers from getting lazy and learning Linux and then being lazy and staying with Linux. Today, for many Linux programmers, the path of Laziness is to "just stay with Linux" or unix or whatever.


    I believe MS gained its dominance with developers by practically giving away the dev tools away for free, initially. However, I could be wrong as I have been a UNIX user for a long time, and didn't "switch" to Windows until a year ago.

    I cannot comment on the rest of this snippit as I am not lazy, and I abhor the lazy. In fact, most decent open source coders (myself included) aren't lazy. We, well, they write good tools for no compensation.

    So, I believe that you are incorrect in this respect. Tinkerers are lazy, and they lack enough motivation to really put anything of use out, so its of no harm to Microsoft OR the open source community. Those who truly want to hack, will hack, regardless.

    Do you know what CPAN is?

    Yes. I've been using Perl and Linux much longer than you have, so I'd better!

    A microsoft CPAN would have tons of objects and C/C++ code that you could download for free. These objects would do things like SMTP, LDAP, PostScript, or TK for you. Microsoft has the MFC but last I checked I couldn't submit anything to the MFC. I couldn't modify my own version of DirectX and submit it to Microsoft for approval.

    Microsoft has a "CPAN", it's called MSDN, and it's full of code snippets and examples and miscellaneous cruft. Objects and C/C++ code included.

    MFC isn't a repository, MFC is a base library for high-level C++ code development, which is significantly different than CPAN, which is a repository.

    You're right, though. You couldn't modify DirectX and submit the changes to Microsoft. I find this argument silly and stupid, in most cases.

    The first reason being that most people aren't going to modify DirectX, or they don't have a need to. I'd bet that you've never modified the source for
    an open source
  • What. I. Wrote. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by An Onerous Coward ( 222037 ) on Monday December 22, 2003 @12:27AM (#7783651) Homepage
    15. List the top one or two possible improvements that you would like to see made to Windows.

    The surveyor might want to put a little note at the top of this survey, pointing out that Javascript must be enabled for the form to work properly.

    From a technical standpoint, I would advise Microsoft to continue working towards greater reliability and security.

    But even if Windows leapfrogged far ahead of Linux in both those areas, I wouldn't switch. As I answered earlier in the survey, I don't trust Microsoft. I don't trust their business practices. I don't trust them to be open and honest about what is going on inside my computer. I don't trust them to do anything other than find ways to derive the maximum revenue from me personally.

    It's nothing personal. Give Sun or IBM the same sort of complete control over 95% of the desktops out there, and the situation wouldn't be significantly altered. The thing is, Microsoft is forced to reconcile two orthogonal goals: Doing what is best for the users of Microsoft products, and doing what is best for their own bottom line.

    They don't know me, and they don't know what is best for me or any other individual. With Linux, I can choose exactly what my computer does, to the extent that my own computer skills will allow. Under the Microsoft paradigm, I can't tinker. I can't experiment. I might be able to study the source under their Shared-Source license if I meet certain requirements, but I can't make improvements. Hell, the rumor mill says that even suggesting improvements can be an ordeal [I can't say I have firsthand experience].

    I trust Linux and Open Source because I don't have to worry about other agendas. This isn't because everyone involved is agenda free, but because the process is transparent and no one agenda can dominate.

    The big fixes cannot be made to Windows; they must be performed on Microsoft itself. They must stop trying to take over every market, eliminate every competitor, and control the direction of an entire industry. If they open their file formats, become more responsive to reports of security threats, and begin supporting open standards, they'll find they have a huge role in the future of computing.

    More likely, I believe they'll stick with the same strategy that put them on top: Crush the competition, embrace/extend/extinguish any good ideas that come along, and do whatever it takes to "maximize shareholder value." If that's the case, I'll continue supporting Linux with my time and dollars, and watch as the world rejects their demand for total control.

    16. List the top one or two improvements that you would like to see made to Linux.

    More vendor support for hardware. Open source drivers often have to be written blindly because the manufacturer doesn't care to support it.

    More application and game support. Especially game support. For example, Microsoft has Windows/DirectX, which is certainly a powerful game development platform. Unfortunately, we're never going to see DirectX ported to Linux, and so long as game developers target only that framework, I think Linux will have to be content with a few crappy ports long after the original.

    Linux isn't without its problems. However, the biggest ones that I've mentioned aren't a problem with Linux per se, but with how others choose not to support it.

  • Re:Two Words (Score:2, Interesting)

    by monkeyfinger ( 683580 ) on Monday December 22, 2003 @01:20AM (#7783866)
    Good point. After running a redhat box for a long time I got fed up with the lack of games (I live with two windows using gamers), so I set up a dual boot system with xp. After having the choice of what packages to install on redhat it was weird to install windows were it just installs everything whether you want it or not.
  • How about ... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by drizst 'n drat ( 725458 ) on Monday December 22, 2003 @11:47AM (#7786335)
    letting me buy one license for home use and letting me install it on those machines that I own! The cost can get pretty step for a household when computing as a hobby and having more than 1, 2, or 3 machines ... afterall - I don't feel like buying 6 licenses of XP Professional for each of my boxes ... as least I can buy a copy of Linux and put it on multiple boxes! Until then ... Linux is my choice!
  • by jbeamon ( 208826 ) on Monday December 22, 2003 @02:24PM (#7787652)
    This is a handy way for an IP address to be linked to a self-admitted number of Linux installations. I got halfway through the "at work" survey before I realized that I was quoting my company's assets and Linux installs to a web site on an IP address instead of a name. For all I know, that IP could be a guy on a cable modem, working for SCO or the BSA. No thanks. Not for me.

And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions. -- David Jones

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