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GNU is Not Unix Software Microsoft Linux

Brazil Moves Away From Microsoft 630

An anonymous reader writes "Citing economic as well as social reasons, Brazil's government is opting to move away from Windows, opting instead for Open Source (read: Linux) solutions. Interestingly, Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice..."
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Brazil Moves Away From Microsoft

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  • Thanks Lula! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by EduardoFonseca ( 703176 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:35PM (#7490319) Homepage
    As a Brazilian I congratulate the Lula government! Parabens Barbudao :) hehehehe Abracos!
  • by Mrs. Grundy ( 680212 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:36PM (#7490332) Homepage
    We have heard a lot of stories about people, states, and countries moving away from Microsoft. Is this a trend? If you are a manager of a fund heavily invested in MS, or an individual investor, when does this news begin to worry you. In the long run does MS really have a chance when competing against free, well written, well understood software?
  • As well as.... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:39PM (#7490353) Homepage Journal
    Citing economic as well as social reasons

    We should probably add security reasons, employment reasons, resource reasons, government infrastructure reasons, political reasons, etc....etc...etc...

    Although, that said. There is a place for proprietary software and many Microsoft products would meet this need. The problem is that Microsoft spent years being just good enough and out-competing the better alternative in many cases (MacOS) and now it is turning around to bite them in the butt, because Linux based solutions are now in many cases.....good enough.

    Of course OS X is still the best solution for most users that I have yet seen, but in the short term, Brazil could likely use their existing CPU hardware infrastructure for Linux as opposed to purchasing new hardware from Apple. Long term costs could most likely be lower with a gradual phasing in of OS X in combination with OSS solutions running on Linux and the use of existing infrastructure on Windows however as a healthy computing ecosystem is diverse.

  • by sbma44 ( 694130 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:46PM (#7490398)
    In recent years Brazil has become [iht.com] the home to a lot of crackers (I believe there was a slashdot article on this recently as well). Presumably moving the government's preferred software solutions will also influence Brazil's populace, through compatibility requirements and civil workers becoming familiar with OSS, then taking that knowledge home.

    If Brazil remains a locus of "grayhat" activity, could this mean more resources will be put toward finding Linux exploits? Certainly on the whole Linux is more secure than Microsoft's offerings, but I imagine most would agree that its small userbase has played a part in limiting the number of exploits uncovered.

  • Wonderful News (Score:3, Interesting)

    by slevin ( 67815 ) * on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:48PM (#7490405) Homepage
    This is such wonderful news I can barely stand it. I've spent the whole weekend in a slump because it recently hit me that Microsoft has flat out killed all progress in browser technologies for the mainstream consumer. Their admission to make no more changes to IE until the next revision of the OS is terribly sad. For a brief shining moment one could dream of a world of human beings working together and exchanging ideas. But for the most part, the internet has been reduced to an alternate way to watch CNN.

    Individial centric social structures (such as capitalism) work well in many ways, but they are very vulnerable through brainwashing of individuals (advertising) and the abuse of the commons(spam). Governments are the forces of socialism which keep things in check. I'm giddy at seeing this actually happening.(Even though I am deeply sad that my own dear Home of the Brave dropped the ball on this in a fearfully troubling manner.) I pray to any higher power that will answer me that this sort of thing will continue until it is safe and productive to have a good idea again.
  • Attitude indeed (Score:0, Interesting)

    by Mike Hawk ( 687615 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @09:55PM (#7490435) Journal
    Or, alternately, one could read that as linux is the OS for poor people.

    The bus is the transportation of choice for poor people. Ramen is the food of choice for poor people. Taco Bell is the restaurant of choice for poor people. Welfare is the lifestyle of choice for poor people.

    Where does that put linux?
  • by ducomputergeek ( 595742 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:02PM (#7490463)
    I work as a tech consultant. My degrees are in German and International business. When I spent a year studying in Germany, the college had 2 SuSE linux labs and one Windows lab on their campus. Most students had dual boot Linux and Windows laptops.

    The main reason why Linux was being adopted outside of the United States was because of its cost, even with $2.50 per copy for Windows XP in 3rd world nations, linux decreases in cost per unit the more machines you install it upon.

    The other reason was SuSE and Mandrake, both European and not from the United States. Which plays well in the EU. There is a mentality amoung many leaders in France and Germany that want to see the "United States of Europe" superpower and waining themselves from Microsoft could give Europe a leg up in technology as Linux catches on in SE Asia and the 3rd world.

    Now with SuSE in the hands of a NA company, I wonder how that will impeed linux adoption. Oh course, IBM would love to see this happen as the premiums would return to hardware, not software.

    I think Linux will be catching on internationally in the next couple years on desktops big time. It probably will be longer in the United States.

  • by cemkaner ( 55453 ) <kaner@kaner.com> on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:10PM (#7490505) Homepage
    We keep reading about the yet-another-government that said "oh, dear, Microsoft is sooooo expensive, we should use Linux instead."

    And then there's an item in the Wall Street Journal about someone from Microsoft striking a deal with the country's government. They get big discounts, free software, maybe some gifts for the schools, maybe even some investments or jobs.

    So if you were running a poor country, why WOULDN'T you threaten to give Microsoft products the boot? It's a negotiation!
  • by Zeinfeld ( 263942 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:14PM (#7490527) Homepage
    I'd like some "freedom and choice" with those Brazilian ladies.

    I am sure that if you went to one of the local 'Thermas' you would find both...

    I went to Brazillia and watched the open source debate. I think folk in the US are completely missing the plot. First off the Brazillian govt is dependent on Microsoft in the way the US govt is dependent on Cobol, Windows is their legacy infrastructure.

    Secondly the big issue for the country at the moment is the balance of payments. The government is calculating that they can get better prices out of Redmond if they apply pressure.

    Finally there is a protectionist angle, keeping out big US software companies helps local companies - perhaps.

  • by jsse ( 254124 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:15PM (#7490533) Homepage Journal
    I see this is a trend. A lot of people is moving away, if not moving to Linux, from Microsoft.

    A friend of mine called last week asked me for my opinion on choosing J2EE and .NET. That really surpise me as he's working for a all MS s/w house, his entire team knows none other than MS's product, and he's a 100% Microsoft zealot. Turn out they were seriouly considering dropping MS deployment as "Microsoft Server is being too insecure".

    I found it amusing: a company who work with Microsoft very closely all these years is being forced to switch, even when they must start from the beginning.
  • by JavaSavant ( 579820 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:15PM (#7490540) Homepage
    It's odd how software has become akin to daytime television. Every time Microsoft loses a market lately, it's the result of some failure of democracy and Natural Law. If a gas station were to lose it's business to a competitor down the street, would he chalk it up to the oppression of OPEC and chime about how such competition is akin to the spread of fascism in Europe in the 1930's?

    I think it goes more to show how Microsoft feels entitled to each and every market they enter, and that they're not trained to respond to the market around them as they're so used to controlling it. If they lose business in some market, it's not because their prices are high and their products are inferior, it's because some other market force "has it in for them."
  • Re:Good and bad... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by phillymjs ( 234426 ) <slashdot@stanTWAINgo.org minus author> on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:16PM (#7490543) Homepage Journal
    However, that's money they could be sending into the U.S. in terms of software licenses, which would then trickle down to the rest of us.

    So you're saying that money from Brazil that would go to Microsoft would eventually trickle down to everyone in the U.S.??? Maybe if you're a lawyer who is suing or defending MS, but otherwise, no-- Microsoft is sitting on over 50 billion dollars right now as a hedge fund against lawsuits-- their shareholders are actually complaining about the cash hoard. [nwsource.com]

    ~Philly
  • by zpok ( 604055 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:18PM (#7490551) Homepage
    You have to realize that the US is by far the biggest software market, so this won't be a problem money wise - at least for the next few years.

    While Brazil has a huge potential, it also has a huge black market. You can buy your copy of XP on the street for next to nothing.

    Most official organizations have to have licenses, so there's some money made, which MS now might stand to lose, but it's more about market share.

    MS would rather have you use MS warez than OSS. Because when you buy your new computer, you'll have bought a new OS. And one day you won't be able to run copys anymore...

    And they of course are afraid of free initiative. Those countries might have huge social and economical problems, their programmers are just as smart.
    Look at what Asia is doing now and extrapolate.

    Latin America is a huge *potential* market, and moves like this might make MS lose them before the potential comes to fruition.
  • Re:context people (Score:3, Interesting)

    by IM6100 ( 692796 ) <elben@mentar.org> on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:21PM (#7490567)
    Entire segments of the software market have NO Open Source options. Engineering Workstations and high-end CAD and design are examples of this. You can't design a large FPGA and simulate it with any Open Source solution. Well, you probably can, with tools reminiscent of what engineers had in 1985...

    Restricting a society to Open Source Only will stunt the economy of that society, limiting them to word processors, spreadsheets, web browsers and an array of similar 'prole' applications.
  • by Lord Bitman ( 95493 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:23PM (#7490577)
    The old standard was "use what is best for the job", this tended to be translated to "Use the de facto standard"
    Now the move is toward "use what is best, and open"

    Like it or not, this DOES put a restriction which was not there before. I'm not saying that Microsoft has a point, I'm just saying I'd like everyone to stop pretending they dont understand it.
  • Sandbox (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:26PM (#7490590) Homepage
    I believe it's a bad thing to exclude one party and not the other,

    Microsoft has proven that it can not play nice with the other children, and as such has been given a few years timeout

    The Best SW for the job is a fallacy.

    I recently saw a movie where the head surgeon made all the operation on little children with brain tumors. He was almost let go as this clearly disallowed anyone else to aquire the needed skill set.

    Nobody disputed that fact that he was the best.

  • by silentbozo ( 542534 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:44PM (#7490691) Journal
    As an investor with a well diversified portfolio, bad news about Microsoft doesn't bother me. I get dividends from Microsoft, Microsoft has plenty of other areas to crush, a drop in Microsoft probably means that one of the other companies that I hold shares in are probably doing better as a result (ie, Transmeta, Apple, Adobe, I would have said Redhat but I sold that last week...).

    Investors with poorly diversified portfolios, or idiot fund managers with a very large percentage invested in MSFT have a lot more to worry about in my opinion.

    In the long run does MS really have a chance when competing against free, well written, well understood software?

    Depends on if Microsoft stays in the proprietary, locked down software industry. They're not idiots - if there's writing on the wall, they'll deploy their forces somewhere else and take over industries with hard assets, much like AOL converted it's dot-com purchasing power into a media empire with physical plant and assets (Time Warner.) For all I know Microsoft could be funneling some of that spare cash into a research project that produces a viable fusion reactor.

    Never underestimate a company with somewhere around 40 billion dollars IN CASH.
  • Re:Theres a typo (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:48PM (#7490703)
    "Interestingly, Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice..."
    I think the word they were searching for was "Ironically".

    I think "predictably".

  • by marvin2k ( 685952 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @10:57PM (#7490753)
    I took it upon myself to configure the system from scratch and even used an optimised version of gcc 3.1 to increase the execution speed of the binaries.
    You seem to be rather inexperienced when it comes to linux so why do you think you could configure a system from scratch? Do you realize that your "optimizations" might be the cause for you problems?
    The 3 machines all went into swap immediately, and it was obvious that they weren't going to be able to handle the load in this "enterprise" environment.
    Why exactly did the machines start swapping? Did you investigate the cause?
    Granted, Apache is a volunteer based project written by weekend hackers in their spare time while Microsft's IIS has an actual professional full fledged development team devoted to it.
    Did you ever wonder why no one else seems to have the problems you describe? Why do so much more people use Apache instead of IIS when Apache is such an underperformer according to you?
    Not to mention the fact that the Linux kernel itself lacks any support for any type of journaled filesystem, memory protection, SMP support, etc, but I thought that since Linux is based on such "old" technology that it would run with some level of stability.
    Linux supports all of the technologies you mention. How did you come up with that list?
    Needless to say, I won't be reccomending Linux/FSF to anymore of my clients.
    Fine with me, unfortunate for your clients though. What are you going to tell them when they want a linux solution but you are one of the last consultants who cannot provide it?
    I would have also liked to have access to the source code of the applications that we're running on our mission critical systems; however, from the looks of it, the Microsoft "shared source" program seems to offer all of the same freedoms as the GPL.
    The Shared Source program and the GPL are completely different beasts. Are you allowed (or even able) to compile Windows from the sources? Are you able to sell your own modified versions of Windows? I'm sorry but you don't sound like a professional consultant, more like a "wanna be". You obviously have no clue about linux and blame your problems on the technology because you don't understand it. Where is the evidence you promised? It sure isn't contained in your posting.
  • by TheUberBob ( 700030 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @11:17PM (#7490847)
    Free Trade is a joke of course, but let's put this in perspective of the americas trade zone negotiations. Brazil wants to protect it's financial service and tech areas from U.S. domination/ownership (multinationals/u.s. investors). It wants profits to go to the local economy...it also wants to export agricultural products and protect its farmers. By focusing on linux and local tech, they can expand their influence in south america, and eventually (since lots of thrid world countries realize the inherent problem in giving money to the world richest country) grab IP rights of their own and export tech to the US...or at least drive ridiculous profits down...it's the natural reaction to the way US subsidies for farmers drive profits down worldwide and keep third world countries to a low growth rate (insuring a very very slow development process and much less threat of challenge to US interests/IP/capital from developing nations). The US wants to protect their farmers because it hurts third world countries profits andhelps big business reap the benefits of tech and financial services (third world countries don't have the capital/resources to compete)...so brazil wants their farmers to benefit and to not allow the invasion of US tech and financial services. So the current talks, detailed at BBC [bbc.co.uk], will probably fall through. And since the US is pursuing deals with individual countries, it's in Brazil's best interest to develop their own tech/keep US tech out, independent of the trade agreement. Of course, given the timing, it's a nice warning shot too.
  • by asdfghjklqwertyuiop ( 649296 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @11:24PM (#7490871)
    Oh course, IBM would love to see this happen as the premiums would return to hardware, not software.

    I don't think the premiums are ever going to return to hardware. Not PC hardware at least. With open source they might shift more towards service/support rather than just the initial sale of the software, which they probably like.

  • by ciaran_o_riordan ( 662132 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @11:31PM (#7490906) Homepage
    This is of course great news. Maybe they should talk to Peruvian Congressman Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nunez, the guy that wrote the letter to Microsoft about Peru using Free Software [pimientolinux.com] regarding Peru's new "Free Software in Public Administration bill".

    Free Software is often better than proprietary software. The OpenSource movement bases it's whole argument on this point. The terms "Free Software" and "OpenSource" usually refer to the same thing [compsoc.com], but if people don't value freedom, they won't see a reason not to switch back when a better (low-cost initially) proprietary alternative comes along.

    I wonder if this has anything to do with Stallmans recent video talk at a brazillian Free Software conference [gnu.org].

  • No. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by rmdyer ( 267137 ) on Sunday November 16, 2003 @11:56PM (#7491012)
    In the long run, people will always choose the lower cost option as long as it does what they want most of the time.

    Microsoft won the browser war not for being the best browser, but because it came free with the OS.

    If Linux does what most people want and does it well, then I really don't see how Microsoft has a chance. The only thing they can do at this point to compete would be to release the Win2k/XP/Longhorn kernel for free, not neccessarily open-source.

    People currently pay for Microsoft software even with the bugs and reboots. If you give them something for free that does pretty much the same thing with the bugs and reboots included then free is really a no brainer.

    What can Microsoft do to counter Linux?

    1. Lower the cost of the Windows OS. The've got plenty of ability to move here since it is priced so high to begin with (compared to free).

    2. Get rid of the client access licenses.

    3. Offer a slicked down base OS for free, then make sure they stay in the applications development arena. Remmember, it's really the apps that do all the work.

    4. Complain about Linux until it runs right over them, they lose there shareholders, and Bill ends up tossing a snow globe while uttering rosebud.

    +1
  • Ominous (Score:2, Interesting)

    by TeachingMachines ( 519187 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @12:06AM (#7491055) Homepage Journal

    "There is the risk of creating a technology island in Brazil supported by law."

    Hmmm... Sounds like a reference to the "remote attestation" procedure [eff.org] in Trusted Computing. Basically, if a Windows server doesn't "trust" the operating system, it won't interact with it. Brazil could really find itself out of the loop if that were the case.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17, 2003 @12:12AM (#7491089)
    The kernel is *incredibly* clean. It was architected by David Cutler, and it's pretty much a work of art. The libraries that have since been built on top of it are nowhere near as well designed, but the code in them tends to be well-reviewed and commented. Unfortunately, it was reviewed with an eye towards functionality, rather than security, but functionality was the historical goal. Whether it's getting better or not, only time will tell. There's a reason you don't see security holes in the kernel, though.
  • Re:Great stuff (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fishbowl ( 7759 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @12:24AM (#7491143)
    > What is it with Brazil and transexuals anyways?

    It's just one data point of the much larger "deal" with Brazil and sex.

    Natives with strong fertility cults merged forcefully with European Catholicism, and that creates a certain mix of sexual obligation and sexual repression. The result is extremely weird, and it has plenty of fringes. You only seem to have noticed one of them...
  • OSS in perspective (Score:2, Interesting)

    by edubarr ( 723926 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @12:57AM (#7491282)
    Brazil isn't a newbie in OSS and Linux. A state in the south of Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul) was the first one to start the migration for Linux and OSS. People related to the IT administration in the government have been saying about switching to Linux since the start of Lula's mandate.

    Another point is that a law stating that all government departments use OSS and Linux does nothing to prevent freedom of choice. The government doesn't think that MS Windows suits their needs and wants to change to Linux. This law will only enforce all of the government to stick with a standard that they already chose. How good would it be if every single department used something different? Complete chaos....

    In Brazil there are many schools, universities and hospitals that are public. This means that they belong to the goverment. It's not like in the US where thos things belongs to a group of people or investors. Imagine having to buy windows liscenses by the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) for $150 each?

    The entire population can still use Windows if they want. Another aspect is that Brazil has a lot of developers and IT professionals. Using OSS will create more job opportunities for those people and will help pick up the economy. You guys have no idea how bad is the unemployment rate there...

    And yes, I am brazilian.
  • by Ami Ganguli ( 921 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @05:16AM (#7491914) Homepage

    I've read the Cringely article, and it's certainly true that MS can do this for a while, but they have to keep some of those going in order to have a long-term business plan.

    At some point over the next ten years or so Office and Windows will stop making significant profits (or at least, they'll only make normal ~10% margin). When that happens the share price has to drop, as it's predicated on high margin and high growth.

    Of course Balmer and Gates realize this. That's why they've started to prepare shareholders for a different kind of Microsoft. They've started issuing dividends - a sure sign of a stock that's going from high-growth to steady but boring profit. That's part 1 of the plan, and very sensible on their part. Part 2 is harder: make sure the steady but boring profit comes through.

    I don't think it's ever happened before that a company with more money than God sees it's main revenue source evaporate. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Can they build up the non-Office, non-Windows part of their business fast enough to avoid imploding?

  • by jsse ( 254124 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @05:16AM (#7491916) Homepage Journal
    ... And at the same time, in a tight job market, I, a perl/c/java developer is being `forced' (financially in need) to learn .NET, and do the next project using that...

    I've heard about that too. Microsoft is giving up .NET to software houses almost for free in order to increase its market share. They don't realize the price will skyrocket once the monopoly is achieved.

    It might be too late for you, but in fact a lot of opensource effort has been made for commercial J2EE alternaitves. Take a look at Apache Struts, Hibernate, Velocity, Eclipse and Easy Struts, etc. As a matter of fact the most expensive (and almost non-repaceable part) is the EJB containers which is included in the most expensive J2EE component - Application Server. With all the opensource alternatives out there I think the cost J2EE deployment will be drastically lower in the very near future.

    You can take a look of the example 'PetShop' reimplemented with MVC-based Struts here [ibatis.com].

    Only you've to get familar with the tools so as to recommend it to your boss with confident. That's what I've suggested to the friend I mentioned in the parent post.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17, 2003 @07:58AM (#7492232)
    Although Microsoft never mentions this fact, open source is a completely level playing field, even more so than proprietary software. Microsoft would be as free as anyone else to supply open source software, so they can hardly claim to be disadvantaged compared to other suppliers that meet the government tendering requirements.

    If their reply is "But we sell only proprietary software" then they are willfully excluding themselves from the market, and it would be quite ridiculous for them to apportion the blame elsewhere.

    After all, this is no different in principle to a government deciding to limit their vehicle purchases to only those employing catalytic converters. A response of "But we sell only cars without catalytic converters" merely highlights the fact that the supplier has chosen not to operate in the relevant market.
  • by FreeUser ( 11483 ) on Monday November 17, 2003 @01:36PM (#7494044)
    The assertion that a million OSS programmers would be able to make an AutoCAD-quality CAD program in a matter of years is a classic fallacy with respect to software project efficiency. (See: The Mythical Man Month by Frederick Brooks.)

    The mythical man month presumes a top-down, managed approach. It has not only not been shown to be applicable to free software and open source development, the history of numerous free software projects demonstrate its inapplicability. Proprietary, top-down management isn't terribly scalable, any more than top-down, managed economies are. OTOH the decentralized, self-organizing approach to software development employed in the free software world is quite scalable, as demonstrated by the success of GNU and in particular Linux, which was able in a few short years to achieve greater quality and portability in the creation of a free UNIX-like operating system than its commercial competitors (including the original SCO) were able to do in two decades.

    The difference is very analogouos to that of centrally planned economies vs. those which are self-organizing (be thay capitalist, socialist, or in one case ... in Spain ... communist). Self-organizing systems, whether they are economies or large software development efforts, are vastly more scalable than centrally planned and top-down managed systems.

    Developing a complete UNIX-like operating system was certainly more complex than developing a CAD system ... and that has already been achieved with greater success in far less time than the commercial equivelents. There is absolutely no reason not to expect similiar results if and when the demand for a free CAD system and the number of qualified programmers capabable of creating such reach critical mass.

    The reality is that (a) Brazil isn't the trendsetter (other countries have already made the move) and (b) the savings and strength afforded to the local IT economy by adopting a policy of software freedom vastly outweigh the conversion costs, which are a one-time-only expense.

    Not only is it NOT a catch-22, converting to free and open software is something Brazil, and other countries, have learned they CANNOT afford NOT to do.

    Unlike many such countries, Brazil is fortunate enough to have leadership enlightened enough to recognize this and courageous enough to stand up to Microsoft and their Washington, D.C. subsidiary (the US Government) and actually impliment it.

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