Finally A Major-Brand Desktop With Linux, Not Windows 422
Fugwidzard writes "Sounds like an okay box from HP at an okay price, the NewsForge review says, but no modem, and even optional modems are Winmodems although they say they have Linux drivers for them. Plus it's not a true Linux preload - they give you a couple of Mandrake CDs and you're on your own, no support. Better than paying Microsoft tax, anyway, and a step in the right direction for HP. Supposedly they're going to have all their PCs 'Linux certified' in the near future. I hope other big PC mills do the same."
Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:5, Informative)
mmmmm... taste the preloaded goodness...
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:2, Funny)
anything, Evesham does, so rather than risk competing with you, I've decided simply to buy you out.
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:5, Funny)
in the spec
Operating system
Mandrake Linux 9.1
and at the bottom
Evesham PCs use genuine Microsoft(R) Windows(R)
www.microsoft.com/piracy/howtotell
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:5, Informative)
If only I had something informative to say!
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:2, Informative)
And Compaq offers a Mandrake 9.0 pre-installed desktop system in India through its franchisee stores.
I am not sure if they offer support.
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:2)
Evesham are medium-sized UK based
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:2)
Based in Evesham [streetmap.co.uk], specifically. Odd, that
Re:Evesham did this ages ago... (Score:2)
They're a Brit company [evesham.com], it's safe to say.
Finally? (Score:4, Informative)
Tier One Support? (Score:5, Insightful)
So if I read this right, you have to go on the Internet and download a driver for the modem in your new PC. Um, unless I have broadband, how am I supposed to get on the Internet to download this driver?
Seems about as smart as putting the installation instructions for your CD-ROM drive on a CD...
Re:Tier One Support? (Score:5, Interesting)
--old timer mode
So, I get this call. A guy just got his modem replaced, but it's a different model/manufacturer than his previous winmodem. No floppy or CD containing driver, driver not available on the Win98 CD. M'kay..
"Now sir, you're going to have to, uh, download the drivers for your new modem from our support site.."
It was calls like that that made me not want to be a call-tech anymore. I truly felt sorry for the bastards.
Re:Tier One Support? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Tier One Support?-Focal point.-II (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the PCs I do freebie tech support for (owned by a friend :)) has an on-board modem and Ethernet NIC. However, I believe the modem is a winmodem.
There was a time when modems did speak a common language. One day someone had the bright idea to use glorified soundcards instead of modems and do the modem bit in software. The rest is history.
I tried a d220 when they were still... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds familiar (Score:4, Funny)
That's innovation, not anticompetitiveness... you insensitive clod!
The question is . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The question is . . . (Score:5, Informative)
Not much cost savings (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not much cost savings (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not much cost savings (Score:5, Informative)
Rumor has it that Microsoft licensing prevents a dual-boot Linux/Windows machine. Supposedly there is some clause that prevents it, but we won't know for sure because the license is supposedly a trade secret.
But you're right, dual-boot would be best for consumers.
Re:Not much cost savings (Score:3, Insightful)
It may only be $52, but it's $52 that Bill's not getting.
Re:The question is . . . (Score:2)
Impressive. Asking a question and answering it yourself by quoting the article, and getting both posts modded up. :)
The answer is... (Score:2)
$467 with Linux, $519 with Windows XP Home, or $589 for Windows XP Professional.
Well, it's a start (Score:5, Insightful)
On a related note, how long is it going to be until SCO is mentioned in these comments . .
Re:Well, it's a start (Score:2)
Re:Well, it's a start (Score:5, Insightful)
Bright Boy: You know, sir, we really should be selling at least one PC with Linux. It'll be a big hit!
Windows-drone PHB: Heh, heh. Sure, we can do that. [pats BB on the head] Here you go, sonny.
This is a looong way from actually selling and supporting Linux PC's. I'd love to have that option from a major manufacturer (and I'd love a good laptop from a major manufacturer with Linux only even more) but for now I think it's best to stick with the small specialty manufacturers, or build your own, if you want a Linux-only box without paying Microsoft tax.
On a related note, from the article:
Weenie. Windows doesn't have geographical preferences? This is a cop-out, and again, IMO, reflects a lack of real commitment to the idea.
Re:Well, it's a start (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as the preload situation goes, it appears we will have to wait a little longer for a preloaded Linux desktop from a major vendor. Following a conference call with HP about the d220, HP spokesperson Tim Constance commented in a follow-up email that "Because of the many flavors and geographical preferences for Linux, HP offers the customer a choice of installing the included Mandrake Linux operating system, or a system of their choice at first boot-up
Weenie. Windows doesn't have geographical preferences? This is a cop-out, and again, IMO, reflects a lack of real commitment to the idea.
I have mixed feelings about this. Sure, it would be great to have it come preinstalled but then you run into a bunch of questions:
Because of the fact that there are so many choices, it would be hard to find just the right install without installing everything. Of course, supporting multiple configurations would make the script for troubleshooting huge.
I think it is a step in the right direction. Maybe they should just pick a standard set of packages and preinstall, but then eveyone here is going to be complaining about which ones they picked. This is one of those times when the vast amount of choices works against adoption.
Re:Well, it's a start (Score:3, Insightful)
Computer starts up... what desktop enivronment you want to use? (kde/gnome/icewm). Have mozilla and openoffice apps on the app bar but call them internet/email and word processing etc a la redhat. Under the 'start' menu, list the alternate apps, but only under an advanced setting.
This way normal users get a less confusing well laid out one choice for what they want to do, and users that know about the
Re:Well, it's a start (Score:3, Insightful)
Not only are the limiting the market but I think they will make the general acceptance of Linux take even longer.
Doing it half-assed will make people question once again if Linux is ready for prime time and could turn them off forever.
My experience when buying a Dell with
It takes just one (Score:2)
Re:It takes just one (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite a lot of software should be preloaded, all nicely set-up to enable the buyer to start using it right away. When, in a later stage, someone asked him if his PC worked well with this all new, thing-of-the-underworld, very-neet-and-1337, futuristic OS on it. Only if the person can say then "yeah, sure, it had everything on it, I plugged it in and it started in 60 seconds, it came with an office suite preloaded and i browsed the internet and read e-mails in no-time...".
Only then Linux will Linux hit the home-market.
Re:It takes just one (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder if this isn't at least partially to address some moaning from the corporate sector about having to purchase Windows twice? I've heard that many companies are buying Windows licenses via a licensing program, then buying another license when they purchase the hardware. Is this just an end-run around that, with Linux used as a convenient excuse?
After all of the SCO mess, I must be in conspiracy theory mode.
Re:It takes just one (Score:2)
Modem Support (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Modem Support (Score:5, Insightful)
Many people today are using broadband
Don't count on it. Linux is used a lot in poor countries where broadband is not an option.
Not that this matters though, since this product is aimed at the US market.
Re:Modem Support (Score:2)
Re:Modem Support (Score:2)
I agree, the lack of a modem is not a big deal as long as the system has a serial port. An external 56k US Robotics modem can be had for very little and does not need any tools to install.
Who is the target audience for this machine? If they're trying to sell this to people who want to get away from Microsoft and use Linux, this is not an acceptable solution to the modem problem. If I'm going to spend nearly $500 on a new computer, why should I have to track down a serial port modem? This sort of thin
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Finally? (Score:5, Insightful)
There has been a major brand [apple.com] desktop computer without Windows, since 1984 even. There's lots of good reasons for Linux vs owning a Macintosh, but you've had choices before this.
Itanium Workstations with Linux Preloaded (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Itanium Workstations with Linux Preloaded (Score:5, Interesting)
I think this is somehow related to the OEM contract with M$ tho don't know how it works out.
Re:Itanium Workstations with Linux Preloaded (Score:2)
The P4 xw4100 would be one I would generally recommend, unless you need a 2-way system, then you get into the Xeon line with the xw6000 model if you don't need 64 bit PCI, xw8000 if you do.
It is expensive but in my opinion these things are pretty well designed, and include on-site next business day support for three years.
I just bought a used Com
Why bother? (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone who would be using Linux, at least in the USA, would just build thier own system, download Linux off the net (or even buy the retail box of the OS) and have a higher performance/price system.
The whole reason why I would ever buy a retail computer would be for the warranty. Now for the common joe-user out there, the warranty and support is something they need.
Put Linux on that system, then what's the point if there isn't support, let alone pre-installation.
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
> Anyone who would be using Linux, at least in the USA, would just build thier own system
First of all, the d220 is aimed at business users, who want a warranty and generally don't build their own (as far as I've seen). I could also see clueless home users buying these at the advice of their pirate friend who would be happy to load Windows on it for free.
Re:Why bother? (Score:2)
Re:Why bother? (Score:3, Interesting)
To be fair, yes, smaller businesses will probably use the preinstalled system & tech support from the supplier.
Too bad it's a "budget" PC (Score:5, Interesting)
I really dislike how Linux keeps getting labeled as the "cheap" solution to Windows. Yes it's cheaper than windows but thats not the ONLY advatange.
I hated how AMD was viewed exactly in the same way when compared to Intel. "The cheaper solution.."
Maybe if it were a laptop... (Score:5, Interesting)
Can't do it right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can't do it right. (Score:2)
> skills to do this job right
Yes they have. But they probably also have a good contract with some company which prevents them from doing exactly that.
Re:Can't do it right. (Score:2)
If that's the case (and you're probably right), the anti-trust suit was a miserable failure.
Recognize (Score:2)
HP and Mandrake? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HP and Mandrake? (Score:5, Interesting)
To be honest, for general usage, Mandrake sounds like a good choice (Disclaimer: I use Debian at home, and have never used Mandrake. Dunno how useful Knoppix would be for this).
Re:HP and Mandrake? (Score:3, Informative)
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
2. If they are trying to attract "new" computer users (or users who aren't as experienced) to Linux, they're in for quite a surprise when they get massive amounts of returns. "Hey, none of my existing software works with this.. This machine is going back to the store!"
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this would only benefit in corporate environments where they need to use Linux and don't have time to piece together machines.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not always. The benefit of building a machine yourself is not that it's cheaper, but that you can build using quality parts for an affordable price. I would imagine the motherboards and video cards in the average budget brand-name PC are crap compared to what you can buy OEM from a parts shop when building your own.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
But don't fool yourself. The mass builders can put together bargain basement junk at a tiny fraction of the price you and I can do it, and still turn some sort of profit margin. They buy low end video cards and motherboards by the millions and do a lot better on the per unit price than you can find. They throw in power supplies that would make you shudder and they don't exactly get their cases from Addtronics.
These are throw away machines. The customers for them know they are throw away machines. They are price sensitive to the penny.
You can't match them to the dollar.
KFG
I Want To Be On My Own (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the way I prefer it, actually. Whenever I buy a manufactured PC, no matter who it's from, the first thing I do is format and reinstall, even if I stick to the OS provided. Who knows what was installed from the factory? (Probably nothing bad but all it takes is one bad employee.)
Supporting Linux. (Score:2, Insightful)
What is the point of Major-Brand PCs? (Score:4, Informative)
This is all well and great for big companies that want 1000s of the same PCs for easy maintainance and vendor support, but for the average geek it is nothing but trouble.
I'll just stick with buying components or bare-bones PCs, those have always been without M$-Tax as well, thank you.
Still paying the Microsoft Tax? (Score:2, Interesting)
So instead of the Microsoft tax... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:So instead of the Microsoft tax... (Score:3, Interesting)
Is Mandrake Light a GPL Violation? (Score:3, Interesting)
According to the GPL:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
Seems that a) was not done. Can anyone confirm if b) is?
Re:Is Mandrake Light a GPL Violation? (Score:2)
2) The only thing Google turns up is this cryptic listing [pricegrabber.com] that suggests that it's a cut-down version of Mandrake from HP.
3) Isn't it a little premature for "Is Mandrake Light a GPL Violation?" HP isn't shipping source CDs. (What does anyone do with those things, anyway? What would you possibly want them for -- to run some sort of homebrew Gentoo Hat?) There's nothing unusual or inappropriate about that.
Re:Is Mandrake Light a GPL Violation? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually quoting the GPL? That'll never catch on. ;-)
Before anyone weighs in with the observation that HP can just point customers at Mandrake, they can't. The next clause is:
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
In other word
Re:Is Mandrake Light a GPL Violation? (Score:5, Insightful)
The source has to be available to you, not included in the box.
Call Me a Cynical Businessman, But... (Score:5, Interesting)
I interpret this move by concumer-friendly HP less as their being proactive vis-a-vis consumer needs and more as their being proactive to get the best OEM deal possible next quarter with Redmond.
This is the type of stuff that must absolutely friggin' terrify the MS sales-suits nurturing the OEM supply chain. The fact that other consumer dealers could follow HP's lead is even more chilling to them. The sound you hear is a half-dozen executive sales assistants in Redmond slamming open file cabinets and searching for contracts their bosses can review with an eye towards sweetening.
Ultimately, whether you are a fan of Linux or Windows, you benefit. A Good Thing.
Re:Call Me a Cynical Businessman, But... (Score:3, Interesting)
A very good point. But as it has been pointed out elsewhere in this discussion, the article notes that this line is aimed at business.
There is an increasing, albeit still a niche, interest in Linux on the desktop in that sector. We've seen the articles. And I've worked at a couple large organizations (corporate and government) that are either working on or already d
too tentative. (Score:2, Interesting)
It's a shame, because it seems that the main benefit of a company like HP offering this machine would be to help increase the OS market share of Linux. If it doesn't do well because
What really needs to happen. (Score:2)
When the system boots it can present the user with a menu to install one of many distro's either from accompanying CD's or via some other method (i.e. web, ftp, NFS etc). It could also be used as a rescue OS.
The manufacturer can script the install for their particular hardware so the user only has to answer the obvious questions such as their locale, username
Pretext to sell a Corporate box without OS (Score:2, Interesting)
Dell does this already (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, you do have to order them with RedHat, but they do give you the option.
Right off of the Dell site:
Linux Products [dell.com]
Dell Linux Overview [dell.com]
Re:Dell does this already (Score:4, Informative)
Dell Linux Overview [dell.com]
Don't be a lamer like me kids! Check those links!
Good ridence to the preinstalled modem (Score:3, Insightful)
I like being able to turn the modem off when I'm not using it. Some modems are preconfigured to answer the phone some aren't. It's just easier to turn it off when it's not being used.
More portable. Being that modems won't be upgrading any time soon the option of installing my modem on future PCs is very appealing.
But more than that a good RS232 port modem is pritty much universal.
Everything from the old Commodore 64 (with RS232 cable) to an iMac (with USB to sereal addapter) and everything in between.
I have a dial up modem had one for years and I don't even use it.
The modems offered by OEMs are always Win modems not worth it.
I did once consider buying a modem card but that was becouse the sereal card wasn't much cheaper. But I stayed my course.
Anyway for $20 a month I get cable internet a 64k baud. Not quite broudband of course but it's cheap and effective. No screwed up phone lines to deal with.
I hope... (Score:3, Insightful)
Retroactive? (Score:2, Informative)
Is it happening finally? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is Microsoft really starting to lose thier grip? Will we look back 5 years from now and chuckle about how MS had such domination, but by then they will be less relevant? With Microsoft "out of the way", will this allow other OS startups (not linux or bsd types) to flourish? I.e. will BeOS get re-invented as a commercial product? Plan9? Something brand new?
The real reason to buy this setup... (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the pricing of this box, you can:
spend $467 and throw the Linux CDs away
spend $519 and throw the Windows XP Home CDs away
spend $589 and throw the Windows XP Pro CDs away
Which do you do?
(Those of you out there really in IT support can now tell me what's wrong with the above. My last sysadmin work was around 1996...)
cheap != slow (Score:2)
Dell currently has a deal on the Poweredge 400SC, with rebates that's ~$300, with free shipping. Celeron 2.2Ghz, 40GB Drive, 128MB RAM (buy more if you want it), no OS loaded, onboard 10/100 NIC (Intel, I think), AGP 8x, 800MHz bus speed.... Take a look. It's worth it.
is this a sign of forward-thinking, or desperation (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, nobody's under any illusions when it comes to whether or not MS plays hardball, right? You get the feeling this is one of those ventures where they hope to sell "many, but not so many as to trigger MS unhappiness"... between a rock and a hard place indeed.
Damned if you do... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, there isn't anything after the ...
From the point of view of a PHB, if you buy this with Mandrake, you'll attract the ire of SCO, and Microsoft will send the BSA stormtroopers round to make you prove that you're not running hooky Windows installs.
The SCO issue isn't that serious, but the BSA one is a real headache for IT departments. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if some shops will buy this with XP home on it, then install a linux distro over it, simply on the basis that HP certify it for Mandrake (and soon SuSE and Red Hat), but they don't want the BSA sniffing roun. Result: HP sees poor sales figures for the Mandrake option, and assumes that nobody wants it.
Re:Damned if you do... (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft will send the BSA stormtroopers round to make you prove that you're not running hooky Windows installs.
This statement is absolutely true. My company bought a bunch Dell servers without any OS so that we could run FreeBSD and Linux. Shortly afterwards, Microsoft came visiting to do an audit. Obviously, Microsoft has some visibility into the machines that Dell ships. In the end, Microsoft found that we had more Windows licenses than we had machines running Windows, probably because we had bou
Dell's been doing this for a whle now! (Score:3, Informative)
Dell has been selling systems with Linux on 'em for a while now. HP seems late to the game.
Support is via RedHat.
See also Dell (if you're in Canada) (Score:3, Informative)
Sounds like an okay box from HP at an okay price ... it's not a true Linux preload - they give you a couple of Mandrake CDs and you're on your own, no support. Better than paying Microsoft tax, anyway ...
You can also get a nice box from Dell with FreeDOS or Red Hat Linux (also can get with Windows). I think Linux is a true pre-load, but FreeDOS is not - they include a CD-ROM with the FreeDOS distribution on it, and you're on your own to install it. Dell only offers these to Canadian customers, AFAIK. We ran a news item about this on the FreeDOS Project [freedos.org] web site, and it's still on the front page. Check it out! Here's our news item:
Dell Canada [dell.com] has updated their site, and they no longer offer the Precision 350 desktop with FreeDOS. However, they do offer the newer Precision 360 with "Free DOS Operating System Kit - CD with Source Code": small business [dell.com] and medium and large business [dell.com] and higher ed [dell.com] and health care desktops [dell.com]. Nice systems, too: up to 3.06GHz CPU. For Canadian customers only / Pour les clients canadiens seulement.
when on the "official" hp site to buy? (Score:3, Interesting)
How is someone even soposed to know that linux is an option, if under "Operating System" you have only the choice of WindowsXP Home or Pro? The special linux PCs are usual so hidden you couldn't find them with Ponce De Leon, a GPS, and a personalized Googlebot.
So this is all a non-issue. Until I can go to hp.com and under their normal site, just see the "Mandrake 9.1 (subtract $52)" option on their site when I go though their store and chose "Operating System" for a new PC, it's all just smoke and mirrors.
And here's why consumers are scared of Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-geek PC users don't need two office suites, a collection of spreadsheets and a "raft of browsers". They need one of each, and they want that one to "just work".
Linux needs to move away from it's "shovelware" tendancies.
Time to start the countdown (Score:3, Interesting)
So, 6 months. What do you say?
Finally...again (Score:3)
Re:DVD Drive? (Score:5, Insightful)
To play DVDs
Re:DVD Drive? (Score:2)
Re:DVD Drive? (Score:3, Informative)
DVDs can be used to store data or video, the DVD drive could be used to retrieve this information.
Re:Modem? (Score:2)
Lets be honest - this is getting less and less of an issue. Most people who want a linux box have broadband.
...only it's easier to send faxes with a modem.
Re:Man, that's an ugly box (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Amazing (Score:3, Interesting)
Dell does sell Linux preinstalls, actually. And these companies realize that someone who has the know-how to use Linux in their enterprise also has the know-how to not use their solutions in the firs