Los Alamos to Use AMD's Opteron in Linux Clusters 289
nuke-alwin writes "eWeek is reporting that Los Alamos National Laboratory announced it will use more than 3,300 Opteron chips in two of its Linux clusters. According to the article 'The key to Opteron, as it tries to gain traction not only against Intel Corp.'s 64-bit Itanium chip but also its 32-bit Xeon offerings, is its ability to run both 32-bit and 64-bit applications equally well.'"
The key (Score:5, Informative)
Intel can't compete with the Opteron on merits alone. It will be interesting to see what they try next.
Re:The key (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe claim that since they created the x86 platform, the Opteron contains their IP and any Opteron users owe them $750/CPU in licensing.
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
They didn't create x86.... (Score:3, Informative)
Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. (Score:5, Insightful)
Whenever I see this twisting of words and facts perpetuated, it reminds me of the fools who just can't say nuclear (it's "noo-clee-ar", not "noo-kyoo-lar", damn it!!!).
Re:Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. (Score:3, Insightful)
DARPA was started in 1969, while Al Gore was a photographer in Vietnam. He had no role in funding DARPA/Internet at that time, obviously, and anything significantly after that time would not be considered origination. All that Algore created was a great running gag for late night TV.
Re:Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. (Score:3, Informative)
No, no. You are obviously missing some facts.
Al Gore lead the process of allowing commercial interests to use the Internet... Previously, it had been non-profit use only. In that process, Gore is quite correct that he helped to create the (commercial) internet, and more specifically, the internet we know today. Without that change, there would be no Amazon,
Why not debate the point with Vint Cerf? (Score:2)
Here's what Vint Cerf had to say [politechbot.com] on the matter as forwarded by Declan McCullaugh.
Al Gore helped make the public utility. (Score:3, Insightful)
That's right. In several email conversations, I questioned Vint Cerf [mci.com] about this, and he said that Al Gore was extremely important in making DarpaNet, a research tool at a U.S. government organization, into the Internet, a public utility available to all.
DARPA is the U.S. government's violence research department. DARPA is devoted to finding more efficient ways to kill people. In the beginning of networking computers together, there was no intention of benefiting anyone.
According to Mr. Cerf, Al Gore
Al Gore helped make the public utility. (Score:5, Informative)
Software failure: Slashdot's system posted my comment in the wrong position. Hopefully this will be posted as an answer to Jaysyn, under comment #6704329 [slashdot.org]
My comment: That's right. In several email conversations, I questioned Vint Cerf [mci.com] about this, and he said that Al Gore was extremely important in making DarpaNet, a research tool at a U.S. government organization, into the Internet, a public utility available to all.
DARPA is the U.S. government's violence research department. DARPA is devoted to finding more efficient ways to kill people. In the beginning of networking computers together, there was no intention of benefiting anyone.
According to Mr. Cerf, Al Gore recognized the importance of a public computer network long before other public officials knew anything about computers, and made sure the public network had funding.
Some have called Mr. Cerf, "The Father of the Internet", but, as his biography says, many people were involved. Mr. Gore was the main promoter, "father", of the public utility we now call the Internet.
Re:Al Gore never claimed he invented the Internet. (Score:2)
It's "noo-kyoo-ler" dummy; the s is silent
--Family Guy
Re:They didn't create x86.... (Score:2)
The 68K was a 16bit bused processor, and IBM were producing mainframes and other systems with far more demanding production techn
Re:They didn't create x86.... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:They didn't create x86.... (Score:2)
Re:They didn't create x86.... (Score:2)
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Re:The key (Score:5, Insightful)
I've worked for enough good-sized companied to know that a difference of a few thousand (even a few hundred-thousand) dollars isn't as important as reliability when you get into enterprise-level systems. The old saying, 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', rings true for Intel as well.
Not to mention that Intel's profit margin is HUGE when it comes to the server market - such is the luxury of being the only x86 gig in town. Intel can stand to slash prices dramatically and still turn a profit. Remember how they almost bankrupted AMD a few years back when AMD promised its 6x86 chips would always be 25% cheaper than a comparable Pentium.
Yeah, this will be very interesting.
Re:The key (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you for real? LOL, Intel entry in the server market was as cheap low end, nothing to do with "reliabitlity" or anything. All that intel has in corporate accounts is: well we are cheaper than sun. Now there is someone saying, well we're cheaper than Sun AND Intel. Intel is SOL, this whole new representation of Intel as quality server stuff is laughable. LOL!
Re:The key (Score:4, Funny)
No, it's not Sun. That's why I said in my original post that Intel is the only gig in town for x86, not for all servers. But, guess what? Not everyone wants a Sun solution. Tell me how you're going to build an IIS server farm on Sun machinery. I'd love to hear your solution.
Go price out an eight-way Dell 8450 server. Then tell me about low-end.
Re:The key (Score:5, Interesting)
"Go price out an eight-way Dell 8450 server. Then tell me about low-end."
Go and price a nice sun fire, or a nice IBM regatta and get back to us kid. Yes those Dells are low end in the realm of servers....
Re:The key (Score:2)
Go and price a nice sun fire, or a nice IBM regatta and get back to us kid. Yes those Dells are low end in the realm of servers....
Or how about an Alpha Wildfire GS160 or GS320. Or the Tandem/Compaq/HP "Himalaya" systems which run the NYSE.
If you want one of these, you better have a seven digit bank account balance.
Makes those 8-way Dell's look like tinkertoys.
Re:The key (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The key (Score:5, Insightful)
Hate to break it to you but most corporate networks are built from scratch if you're expanding to new physical locations. Well, if you're actually serious about your question, then I'd say yes... in fact this year alone I've done roughly 6 such projects and with budgets ranging from (approx) US$50k to a cool mil.
To go really low-end then build your own damn servers dammit... heck some of the custom servers we've built are at least at par with the 8450, if not better. 2U and/or 3U casings are not that expensive nowadays.
Well anyway, if IIS server farms (wtf?!) are your "thing"... there is still AMD... and don't tell me your "IIS server farm" (which of course implies Windows 2000) which costs under 100k runs Xeons?
Man if I'm the one in charge of whatever it is you've done... I'd fire your ass and kill that asshole of a boss of yours.
Re:The key (Score:2)
Look. I'm not, nor was I ever, comparing Dells to Suns. I only mentioned it in my second post as a retort to that other person's post.
What I'm doing is comparing Intel servers to the forthcoming AMD servers. that's all.
As for the shock of building an IIS farm - believe it or not, people do it. It was not my decision. When the company's product is written in ASP, and requires IIS to run, explain to me what I'm supposed to do with Solaris, or Linux, or any other
Re:The key (Score:2)
Re:The key (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The key (Score:2)
Re:The key (Score:2)
Compared to the K5 from NexGen (I think that's the name) that it was replacing, the K6 wasn't so hot. It lacked features the K5 had, and was actually s
Re:The key (Score:5, Interesting)
And what do you think a reputation really counts for exactly??? Especially in the "commodity hardware" market?
Intel's specs can't come anywhere close to AMD in ANYTHING. AMD has Intel beat in: price, performance, heat, power, maximum operating temperatures, and (lower) heat output.
Lots of companies jumped on the Linux bandwagon quickly, and the operating system is really more crucial than the hardware. If companies can make that switch, a little jump to Opteron is nothing.
Really? First of all, what evidence do you have that AMD is ANY less reliable than Intel? Secondly, the reliability of an individual component isn't anywhere near as important in a cluster... If it was, you wouldn't see even Intel processors being used, you'd only see Alphas, PPCs, Sparcs, etc.
Besides, I would hardly call just about ANY x86 system an "enterprise-level" system.
What does that have to do with anything? Not like your enterprise is going to care which company is making more money. Intel can't take enough of a loss for a long period of time to be competitive with AMD.
Re:The key (Score:3, Informative)
Not true. The opteron's pricing is similar to the xeons (depends which model you're comparing to (mp, dp, regular)). The performance benchmarks go back and forth, with the opteron generally leading in multiprocessor configurations. The power dissipation is a flat out win for opteron.
Not like your enterprise is going to care which c
Re:The key (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't think you can compare an Opteron to a Xeon. Think Opteron v. Itanium.
My point is that, on price, AMD's processors are far less expensive than Intel, while still being better than them in just about every way. For Intel to prevent Opteron systems from taking over the market, they are going to have to eat some of the cost of their own chips long enough to keep people from even thinking about using AMD products. As I said, I don't believe they have enough cash to make that happen... That means they either need to make a HUGE leap forward with their processors, and come out with something that is actually better than AMD has, or their market is going to quickly slide out from under them.
Again, you are comparing two entirely different product lines. I wouldn't expect the first few chips (that are almost completely redisigned) to come out and be completely competitive with old technology, established chips. It won't take long for prices to drop, performance to improve, etc., but don't expect everything from the very first of an entirely new processor line.
Re:The key (Score:2)
In both SPECint and SPECfp, the Opteron edged out the other systems.
Somewhere around here is a link, but it's mentioned in a nice blurb in this month's CPU Magazine.
Re:The key (Score:4, Informative)
Companies will care. They need suppliers that have the cash to remain around to give support and take responsibility for problems. Sure x86-64, wave of the future... unless it dies with AMD a year from now.
The problem with x86-64 is compilers. Currently I gain a factor of 2-3 using intels compilers of gcc (and several other compilers I tried) in AMD hardware. And obviously Intel compilers are not available for x86-64.
Re:The key (Score:2)
Seriously.
They are -almost- as good as the Intel compilers (on Intel) and they're putting out a new rev that fully supports Opty.
The scientific computing community is only using Itanium in those few instances that they -need- the higher FPU marks -AND- have the cash to spend. In general, they're saving 30% and getting almost twice as many processors, so it's still a net win.
The compilers aren't the problem, provided you actually grab the right one.
Re:The key (Score:2)
Maybe AMD is on to something, but winning a few supercomputer contracts rarely affects corporate purchasing. It will be an interesting show as they seem to have taken the a lot of the hardest work out of making a multiprocessor system.
Re:The key (Score:4, Insightful)
I've worked for enough good-sized companied to know that a difference of a few thousand (even a few hundred-thousand) dollars isn't as important as reliability when you get into enterprise-level systems. The old saying, 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', rings true for Intel as well.
This is definitely right, but I wonder if the name-brand is worth it if they're paying twice the amount for Intel vs. AMD.
The article says Linux Networx got the contract for just under $10 million, and will deliver 2816 Opterons.
Now, I've no idea how much the hardware costs them, but let's assume $8 million; the other $2 million goes towards salaries/profit.
$8 million / 2816 Opterons = $2850.91 per Opteron.
Compare that to the PowerEdge 3250 (Itanium) from Dell: $6229 per Itanium.
I'm sure Intel has quite a mark-up on Itaniums and could get the price lower when trying to win a contract, but AMD is in the same position with the Opteron as well.
Either way, a nice win for AMD, as it seems that the Opteron really is the best x86 processor at the moment.
Colocated Linux Server - $60/mo [aktiom.net]
Re:The key (Score:2)
First off, Athlons and Athlon MPs have garnered a lot of respect around the industry.
Secondly, I'd say Intel's efforts have gained a reputation - however in many cases it's a bad one.
There is no question that Opteron pretty well smokes all current Intel offerings, especially in 2P and above configurations. :-)
Re:The key (Score:2)
Specifically in the scientific computing community. There's also a number of companies that have latched on to Athlon MP-based web servers, too.
Cost plays a major issue, but for the average web machine, the little bit of extra oomph you get from a high-end Xeon over a high-end A-MP isn't worth the 15-20% price premium in most cases.
*shrug*
Re:The key (Score:2)
A lot of companies are going the cluster route, especially with things like web servers that work so well this way, many independent and fairly expensive transactions.
Re:The key (Score:2)
Well here [ibm.com] you go.
Re:The key (Score:2)
They are much less expensive, performace the same or (usually) better, and come with the same warranties et al.
Plus, these are all FreeBSD or RedHat Linux servers with everything compiled from scratch, so they really scream.
Re:The key (Score:2)
Wrong. Apparently some guy at Sun got fired for buying IBM.
Re:The key (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh really, the Opteron performs just as well with natively compiled 64bit apps? Do you have links to 64bit benchmarks that show this. Everything I've seen shows I2 ahead in integer performance and way ahead in floating point. Don't know if the Opteron #'s are for "native" 64bit code though (and what difference it would make if it were, but it's still nice to do a apples/apples comparison).
RTFM (Score:3, Informative)
It's spelt out in full, page 225:
(...)
Coals to Newcastle! (Score:3, Insightful)
Fantasy time! If I worked in Los Alamos I would; 1 definately be in the lead in SET@home, and 2 My Quake FPS would be pretty good I suspect...
later.
Re:G5 (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:G5 (Score:2)
IBM will be making servers with the 970 once they catch up with demand for apple. They are anticipating Quad 970s starting at $3500 for an empty box, which is very cost effective. All of this on IBM's site.
I submitted a couple of stories, plus several other
SCO will bill them for... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:SCO will bill them for.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:SCO will bill them for.. (Score:2)
They want to bill their own customers (Score:2)
That explains it. (Score:2, Funny)
SCO hq in Utah ? I didn't know that, and I'm guessing if more people had known this from the start I may have never even heard of SCO.
Re:SCO will bill them for... (Score:2)
they are another Canopy Group member,
I bet they are exempt from licensing fees
Re:SCO will bill them for... (Score:2)
Re:SCO will bill them for... (Score:2)
Lightning computer system from Linux Networx (Score:4, Informative)
Still plenty of floor space in the new building.
After having received notice from SCO, (Score:2, Funny)
The new object of the project is precise targeting of the
Manhatten Project II on SCO HQ so as to cause as little collateral damage to Utah residents.
Remember, when you hear the siren, duck and cover.
*/waves buh bye to SCO/*
The Real Story is Here (Score:5, Informative)
Los Alamos to get Lightning computer system from Linux Networx
LANL [lanl.gov]
For more specific technical detail on the supercomputer Linux Networx is building for Los Alamos, go to
LNXI Newsroom [lnxi.com]
Re:The Real Story is Here (Score:2)
Other Interesting Info (Score:3, Informative)
Opteron 246 Overclocking Benchmarks [amdzone.com]
While it's nice to see the 264 OC'd win... (Score:2)
When will we have 64-bit native q3a? Come on Carmack, stop fiddling with your rocket and get cracking! The benchmarking websites demand it.
Re:While it's nice to see the 264 OC'd win... (Score:4, Interesting)
Check it out:
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030422/opteron-
Start there and read the next couple pages. Native 64-bit runs up to 30% faster.
As far as 64-bit native q3a probably not until the end of the year when a more stable Win-64 build is available. Although there is already a Half-Life2 64-bit build running on Win-64 Alpha, which may lead to some leaked figures earlier.
Maybe eWeek could use ... (Score:2)
just toured Linux Networx today... wow (Score:4, Informative)
They boast #3 on the worlds fastest super computers, so questions about Linux on the "Enterprise" should be easily resolved.
This [tomshardware.com] Tom's hardware review of Opteron vs. Xeon is quite interesting to give a better feel for comparison to todays speeds.
It will be nice when we have some numbers to compare Itanium II direct 64 bit to Opteron, although it doesn't seem much can save the Itanic IMHO.
The real key... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The real key... (Score:2, Informative)
BTW, most of the LinuxBIOS clusters that were mentioned in Ron Minnich's LinuxBIOS ML post are Linux Networx systems... emm gooood
I can't help it oh no here we go Sco again! (Score:2)
PPC 970 (Score:3, Interesting)
Who wants to buy 3000 IBM or Apple branded boxes when you can get 64-bit Opterons with whatever box maker you want? Doesn't that make a lot more sense to the bottom line? The most annoying part is I am sure you are bound to using IBM service contracts as part of the deal.
Re:PPC 970 (Score:2)
The Hegemony Is Broken (Score:2, Funny)
Intel Screwed Up (Score:3, Interesting)
Now I get to watch a chip company I've supported (AMD) for years finally succeed. I just hope they stand by and keep their good prices for performance and not start to charge more for their chips if they become top dog or at least get a lot closer to knocking Intel off their high horse.
Re:Intel Screwed Up (Score:3, Insightful)
You still want to be using a CPU from the 70s for how much longer? You still desire 8 and 16 bit apps do you? You still run a.out binaries under linux?
Granted, if you plan on using an Itanium on a Windows platform, you may have some creature comfort programs unavailable, but as for Linux and HPUX, everything you need is there. Also, backwards compatability with parisc 32 and 64 bit apps are available under HPUX. From http://www.hp.com/products1/itanium/infolibrary/w h itepapers/archives/parisc.pdf
Power consumption problem (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the very serious problem related to building
Itanium clusters is their very high power
consumption and the associated heat removal problem.
It's okay for a few server in a room, but for
cluster trying to pack boxes is a key point of the
architecture. Apparently Opteron is not too bad
since there are dual Opteron in 1U server format
design commonly available, and it was overheating
that would be known by now, but for the Itanium(2)
cluster I know off, they never managed to get the
full cluster running without bringing either the
power supply down or the air conditionning down.
Itanium 1 was notoriously power hungry and
a common source of joke about this, Itanium 2 is
certainly better in this respect, but the clock
speed has been multiplied by nearly 3, I really
doubt they could compensate the initial problem
enough to get the new high speed chip to get back
to a decent consumption.
On the other hand Opteron seems quite better
probably getting the benefit of all the power
consumption research that AMD did during the 90's
where AMD chip were at the time consuming significantly more than Intel equivalents.
Now if someone has the time to make a search :-)
for the advertized power consumption of both chip
that would be a really interesting post
Daniel
National Dedicated Game Server Farm (Score:2, Funny)
It's worth the security risk.
My vote is for Halflife 2.
AIST also going for Opteren Cluster (Score:3, Informative)
This one is an IBM made one. Pretty interesting.
impressive (Score:2)
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:3, Funny)
Only if you are running Windows...
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry to be bringing up a MS product, but their new 64bit Windows will be able to run 32bit programs with in 64bit OS mode, but not 64bit programs in 32bit mode (at least from my current understanding of the new product line). However, there was some performance hits, at least at the time that I read about these features (a few months back), so it may or may not still be the case now.
I am sure it won't be long for Linux to be able to run 32bit applications and 64bit applications within the 64bit OS version. Especially since MS figured out a way to do this, it shouldn't be too hard for Linux to be able to do so as well.
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:4, Informative)
Debian developers are also working on a port to Opteron that does/will support 64 bit Kernel with 32-bit and 64-bit compatibility.
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would you even want to mix-and-match with Linux (or BSD)? With Windows just about all programs are propritary, so you have to run whatever you can get, but with Linux, you just have to recompile and get everything to 64-bit, no problem.
Yes, I know some people run propritary Linux programs as well, but those are rare (and it's their own fault anyhow... *nag, nag, nag* )
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:2)
In any case it's already possible - you need the 32-bit libraries from libc upwards installed in parallel to the 64-bit libraries. Kind of like the way Linux emulation works in FreeBSD I guess.
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:4, Informative)
In Opteron, 64-bit apps cannot be run under a 32-bit OS. Opteron doesn't recognize code as being 64-bit code unless long-mode is enabled, and once long mode is enabled the OS must be 64-bit (because all switches to more privileged code also switch to 64-bit mode).
Being able to run 32-bit apps under a 64-bit OS was one of the absolutely required features for Opteron, however.
(yeah, I work at amd)
Errm... (Score:5, Informative)
It is just the state of a flag in a control register. In particular, see page 68 of [amd.com]
AMD's Opteron System Programming Guide.
64-bit mode is enabled with the flip of bit 8 of the EFER Model-Specific Register. Otherwise it defaults to 32-bit mode. OS designers should test/set this bit just before running a thread in the scheduler, or jumping into system code as it can only be modified by code running in ring 0. This is the same way people treated the Virtual-8086 (16-bit) mode bit in CR0. In fact, you can combine the protected-mode, virtual-8086 mode, and "long mode" bits to have a variety of register-size and memory addressing modes per thread.
Re:32 bit swapping to 64bit (Score:2)
Re:/.ed at 11 comments... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Imagine... (Score:2)
You mean besides the fact that they keep melting the board?
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2)
If I remember right, the pentiumII's (and probably most of the modern P4's) are made in the phillipines. Phillipines is notorious for having Taliban sympathizers that have kidnapped and killed US tourist there.
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2)
- Malaysia and Ireland, you're right.
AMD:
- Malaysia and Germany (Dresden if I'm not mistaken).
But labelling any country as a terrorist sympathizer is just plain dumb.
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2, Insightful)
First, Intel makes their chips where it is the cheapst. Pentium was designed from a group in Isreal. Consider the history of Isreal collabrating with Jews in US spying and steal info out of US military and companies, would it be possible that the Isrealies gov might thought about pressure the researh group to put some special circuit into the chip so they can steal more US secrets. In addition, Intel regularly ship the mat
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:3, Informative)
Not according to AMD: AMD Opteron(TM) Processor [amd.com]
All Opterons are made in Germany.
The only two fabs they they have are Dresden, Germany(fab 30) and Austin, Texas(fab 25).
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2)
Hmm, I'd sure like to hear the explanation for the "ASSEMBLED IN MALAYSIA" stamp on Opteron processors then.
Opteron Photo [amdzone.com]
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone already pointed out that the Opeterons are fabricated at the Fab30 in Dresden. AFAIK, AMD has no fabs in China and I'm not aware that they even do assembly there.
But the most farciful (Note to grammer Nazi's: Yes I did just make up that word.) statement is your post is this one:
What would stop them from putting data-wrangling code into the Opteron chips?
So even if the Opteron was fabbed in China, you think that the Chinese James Bond is just going to slip in an entirely new chip design into the assembly line and none of the automated or manual microscopic inspections each chip undergoes is going to notice that there are an extra 25,000 transistors over there and these other 30,000 transistors are in the wrong place?
And as another person pointed out, Intel does very little manufactering in the USA these days. At least AMD has a fab in Texas. I couldn't find any info on Intel's fab locations quickly, but I don't recall that they have a large scale one in the USA anymore, but that's complete guestimating.
You sound as bad as the lady at work that thinks buying Microsoft is her patriotic duty!
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2)
Re:Chinese and Los Alamos (Score:2)
Re:How Many? (Score:3, Funny)
"making it the largest Opteron system"
Two is also greater than one.
Re:Opteron, MADE IN MALASIA (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
Intel chips have been running hotter (mhz to mhz) than AMD for a few years now. This is well documented and has been talked about ad nausium here and elsewhere.
Re:Wasteful (Score:4, Interesting)
Let's review shall we?
Intel P4: Runs Hotter, Can't handle high temperatures, more expensive.
AMD: Runs cooler, Easilly handles much higher temperatures, and are far cheaper.
So tell me again why anyone should buy from Intel.
Re:Wasteful (Score:2)
So tell me again why anyone should buy from Intel.
Duh...to get "Intel Inside" sticker on the computer's case. Sheesh, some people just don't get it.
One way or another please (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd rath
NEWSFLASH (Score:2, Insightful)
You call people naive and then refer to 'the supremacy of good over evil'.. think about it dumbass.