Ask Bruce Perens About Linux and Open Source 403
A lot is going on these days, ranging from the endlessly amusing SCO soap opera to plenty of mostly positive news about Linux and Open Source adoption by both corporate and government users, not to mention an increasing number of commercial applications being ported to Linux. And, of course, LinuxWorld is right around the corner. Bruce Perens is certainly as appropriate a person as any to help us get a handle on the current (and possibly future) state of Linux and Open Source. We'll send him 10 of the highest moderated questions, and post his answers as soon as he gets them back to us. As usual, one question per post, please, and don't bother asking questions that can easily be answered with a couple of minutes' worth of online research.
Bruce? (Score:4, Interesting)
(Oh, and FP.)
future of SCO Linux Licensing (Score:5, Interesting)
For the desktop... (Score:5, Interesting)
BSD (Score:5, Interesting)
Wag the dog (Score:3, Interesting)
We see softwares of various levels of Free shoehorned into tasks they werent created for, or arent suitable for.
When will software choices be made by virtue of technical merit, and not political views?
Civil Disobedience (Score:5, Interesting)
A while ago IIRC you cancelled plans to demonstrate a technology which would have run afowel of the DMCA in defference to the wishes of your then-employer HP. Now that you are no longer with HP, do you plan to go ahead with it?
I'm not trying to goad you on, mind you. Breaking the law is a serious business and if you have reconsidered, I certainly won't think any less of you.
Beyond the SCO court case (Score:5, Interesting)
Hinderance to Adoption (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux replacing Windows on the desktop (Score:4, Interesting)
To the general public (Score:5, Interesting)
What would you tell them that would, say, change from Linux to Windows?
Sustainablity of open source (Score:5, Interesting)
The state of the community (Score:5, Interesting)
Smaller projects (Score:5, Interesting)
How to Convince People To Use Open Source Software (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe that you can do well at advocating the use of open source software. So, how can it be done?
Best Distro? (Score:1, Interesting)
Open Source and Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
HP (Score:5, Interesting)
could you please tell us a bit about your experience working with HP? I am interested if you were able to share your views on open source with the HP execs. What were their thoughts about it?
Do you see open source becoming more accepted by large corporations or will it remain largly popular with the developer/hobby crowd?
Further steps... (Score:4, Interesting)
Recently Open Group ask to you for develop one Open Source Strategy [slashdot.org]. Which others groups/enterprise do you like/wish to contact you for similar task?
Regards,
-Bryam
Linux in 10 Years (Score:5, Interesting)
How will this affect MS? (Score:2, Interesting)
The Ultimate Question : vim,emacs or pico? (Score:1, Interesting)
The Ultimate question : KDE, Gnome or twm? (Score:1, Interesting)
Hardware vs. Software companies in OSS? (Score:1, Interesting)
I note that the companies that you say deserve praise for their efforts, Apple and IBM, are both hardware companies that in effect happen to produce software. In both cases, they make far more money from their hardware than they do software, so in effect they have less to lose by giving an open source license a shot, but have much to gain in the form of increased sales of hardware.
But what about companies that are primarily in software? How do you see them making money off of open source, when that is after all their main motive--earning cash? In other words, why buy an open source package when you can download or copy it for free? Finally, are there any large "traditional" software companies (ones from before open source became a buzzword) that you see making commendable moves like IBM and Apple?
Best regards, JE (posting anon from work)
Linux on the Xbox (Score:3, Interesting)
Ham radio (Score:3, Interesting)
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
What incentive do you think GNU/Linux and other free software offerings give these entities to use free software? What functionality does it enhance in practical terms for both governments and corporations? (and security doesn't count; it's not like the penguin is devoid of known holes, and under a whole lot less scrutiny than Windows)
And finally, if the functionality/effectiveness differences between free and closed OSs really are as minor as they seem at first corporate glance, what path do you think the Open Source community should take in regards to making free software distinctive and superior?
All the best,
~Tris.
PS (to all slashdot flamewar-starters) -- No, I don't like Windows. Yes, Linux might well be the second coming (ra ra ra, join the hurd (hoho mildly clever)). It's for the sake of argumentation and making a point. Now, go ahead and subject me to the Spanish-Linux Inquisition
Slashdope 1: Do you worship only one Linux?
Slashdope 2: You mean GNU/Linux!
Slashdope 1: Erm... yes. Well, do you?
Me: I suppose so.
Slashdope 1: Not good enough! Send him to the --- comfy chair!
Powerful friends for Open Source (Score:5, Interesting)
It would seem that hardware manufacturers taking (financial) interest in open source may be the force we need to counter-balance entrenched Big Software. Econ 101 supports this idea, as lowering the total cost of owning computers should result in more being sold. Having IBM and HP (maybe Sun?--they seem conflicted) on board is great, but there are a lot of hardware companies that still don't get it. Obviously, companies like Intel and AMD and ATI and NVidia have to weigh the benefits of actively (and monetarily) supporting Linux and other open source against the problems it might cause in their current business arrangements (read: don't want to piss off Micrsoft).
The question(s): Do you think their current lukewarm (at best) support represents enlightened self-interest, or are they missing the boat? Is there anything the community can do to improve the returns for companies that do jump on the bandwagon?
What if SCO Wins? (Score:4, Interesting)
OS X - Friend or Foe? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are reports of people fleeing Linux to OS 10 because they still get *NIX but with a more easily usable/configurable software suite, but on the other hand, Apple's contributing to open source, manufacturing another hardware platform for Linux, and generally providing another alternative to Redmond.
So, is the competition good for Linux, or not so much?
Direction The Open Source Community Should Take (Score:5, Interesting)
I recall reading an article that was posted on Freshmeat [freshmeat.net] that said that the open source development community should only work on developing the more popular open source software projects. It was said that the projects on sites like Sourceforge [sourceforge.net] with low activity levels should just be abandoned so that open source software that stands out will be get the most attention and so it will be more likely to be considered superior. What is your opinion on this? Do you think the Open Source Community should rally behind the big projects?
You're here on Slashdot where, as you know, you have the opportunity to tell much of the community what to do. Here's your chance to direct us. :)
Cross-licensing (Score:5, Interesting)
I see cross-licensing as the product of a broken patent system - if patents were given out only for truly original and non-obvious inventions, cross-licensing would be very rare. But along with the litigation that necessitates it, it's a fact of life. How much of a threat to GNU/Linux do you think the inability to cross-license presents, and do you think it might create a barrier to its use?
Economy (Score:4, Interesting)
Who are the other bad guys besides SCO - Sun? (Score:5, Interesting)
You've surely noted that others are indirectly jumping on the Linux FUD wind blowing out of SCO.
Sun's McNealy, for one, has been insinuating that Linux is a risky proposition (compared to the clearly legally-unencumbered Solaris UNIX which Sun owns outright). At first, this just seemed like slams against IBM (the old: my UNIX is better than your flawed UNIX), but Sun's AIX attacks seem to have given way to suggestions that Linux and Linux users are endangered by the SCO situation.
Have Slashdotters and the Linux community generally given Sun a free ride on this and who else do you think have been shameless opportunists here? Who else deserves some of the vilification that SCO is getting?
Not Another SCO... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, I'd be legally liable if MS found out I did it, especially if it was deliberate. But what should/can be done by OSS project leads to ensure that all code others contribute is entirely legal?
The Corporate Challange (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you agree with this analysis? And if so, how does the Open Source community combat this?
Thanks, Tom
Bruce-my Software Dev Process Questions (Score:4, Interesting)
Recently there has been further baby steps by Sun moving the Java API-JSR process towards theOpenSource appraoch..some say by dragging sun by the hair every step of the way..
What can a Language standardization and improvement process learn from OpenSource and Linux in the software dev process?
Re:Bruce? (Score:2, Interesting)
Market sectors... (Score:1, Interesting)
Note: I'm not talking about the low/mid/high range business, I'm talking about actual market sectors.
Open Source vs Free Software (Score:5, Interesting)
You say that you use the two terms Free Software and Open Source interchangibly. At the same time, depending on the year, month, phase of the moon, etc. you seem to declare your loyalty to one or another of these two camps almost to the exclusion of the other.
Can you please elaborate your views on this disconnect in people's mind on where exactly you stand on the issue?
- Serge
Re:Question (Score:5, Interesting)
That interview you reference was in 1999, four years ago almost to the day. It was the first Slashdot reader-generated interview ever, which is why I particularly wanted to talk with Bruce this week.
I don't know how things have been in your life, but in mine, in Bruce's and in the rest of the world -- and most especially in the worlds of Linux and Open Source -- many things have changed since then.
Good historical interest to see the differences in questions *and* answers between then and now, but I wouldn't exactly call it a dupe.
You may not have noticed, but some media outlets interview the same people over and over.
Heck, I saw an interview with that President Bush guy a couple of days ago on the TV news, and I swear they quoted him just last year...
- Robin
Is OSS adequate proof that IP is not necessary? (Score:5, Interesting)
ATM Receipt (Score:3, Interesting)
I think an important part of distributing Free as in speech information are places like UNC's ibiblio project. UNC being a good example, many universities the world over put a good deal of money into similar projects such as SunSITE. I don't think Open Source peojects would behalf as successful was it not for this extremely wide availability. While relatively cheap, for most people large amounts of storage space on top of large amounts of bandwidth are simply unavailable. Without both projects like Debian would not likely exist in their current form. Tools like apt-get wouldn't be as useful as they are if the sources list was constrained to cdrom:/cdrom and file:/mnt/nfs/debian.
How repeatable a project do you think SunSITE is, not merely in terms of mirrors but as a repository of Free information and ideas? Also what do you feel the Free software community as a whole or individually could do to better secure availability of places like SunSITE?
Open Source not on Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
Pushing Linux from Government (Score:2, Interesting)
As a former government employee, I found that there was a certain degree of hostility towards open-source software solutions. This was due (in part) to the fact that senior management didn't have a single entity with which to lay the blame when things went wrong. With the continuing business and market prescence being generated by companies such as Red Hat, do you feel that government organisations will start to take Linux (or other OSS) more seriously? Yes, we've seen the articles about the German uptake of Linux (80% of which will run VMWare/Win2k). Do you think that the governmental adoption of open source software will help encourage members of the public to become more technology literate and encourage further development?
Ta!
-Rupert.
Sun and Free software (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not trolling, just asking what others won't (Score:5, Interesting)
The perception from our side of the fence was that you were a egotistical, idealistic hothead that was doing more harm than good as a representative of GNU/Linux and the open source movement.
Specifically, you were looked at as an advocate/spokeperson for the Debian project, and that association at the time was hurting Debian's chances of being taken seriously as a first-tier distribution option for vendors doing commercial work.
My question is simple: did you get a bad rap? What were you trying to accomplish at HP, and what are you trying to accomplish now.
Posted anonymously as to protect my own marketability.
California (Score:3, Interesting)
So might it be worthwhile for the Open Source community (and its friends and cousins) to somehow sponsor a candidate for governor?
Such a candidate would have to have a good computer system for a website or the slashdot effect might make actually reading about the issues a bit difficult.
better yet - ask about WRC-03 (Score:2, Interesting)
Proposition regarding software patents in Europe (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Whenever the topic of Free Software (or Open Source) comes up outside Slashdot, we only seem to hear a few names (not that this is all that different from proprietary software news where the number of recognizable names is possibly even smaller)... In your opinion, other than RMS, ESR, Linus, and yourself, who's out there that's really saying good stuff about Free Software? Who is not only doing interesting stuff, but talking about it in a way that keeps you interested past the sound bites? If the four of you were, um, somehow "unavailable for comment" for an extended period, who from the Free Software community would you hope would take up the reins of being in the public eye and doing spokesperson-like things?
Will Open Source Spur Non-Unix-Derived OS's? (Score:3, Interesting)
Open Source a risk to corporate health? (Score:5, Interesting)
So my question is, as a consultant who promotes Open Source software, what is the answer to a potential business client that asks the question "Does using Open Source software make my company a possible target for a lawsuit?"
I realize this is an issue in the closed-source world as well, however, it seems that the closed-source software vendor would be liable for infringements (see recent changes regarding indemnity in Microsoft's EULA), plus the fact that it is closed-source may make it harder to discover these infringements in the first place. Would buying your Linux from RedHat put the legal burden on RedHat? What about some random Open Source project? Does downloading the RPM from redhat.com make RedHat the vendor?
Whether or not the vendor covers you is another story -- it all comes down to perception -- and right now it seems that Open Source software may be perceived as a risk to corporate health.
Why have you not stepped away.. (Score:3, Interesting)
If you go here [fsf.org] there is a venn-like diagram showing that Open Source is a broadly inclusive definition, and how the GPL that you push is a small part of the Open Source universe.
You had said on Techocrat.net:
"It is not the job of Linux advocates to support BSD"
At The Bazzar you said:
'The new BSD licence is great. It allows a GPL license to be added, and the code protected'.
And in the Open Group [opengroup.org] Open Source document you talk about "Assure that Open Source developers can participate in standards that are operated or facilitated by the Open Group, including the certification programs operated for those standards. This may require a special rate structure or coordination of corporate sponsorship for the Open Source project to go through certification.
Promote broad certification of Open Source software by encouraging certification of a publicly available and redistributable version of an Open Source program, rather than a particular vendor's instance of that program. This will allow multiple Linux vendors to coordinate their activities on certification, so that a larger collection of Open Source becomes certified than any one vendor would achieve on their own. "
This document ignores Open Source running on platforms like Solaris, AIX, AT&T-UNIX-IP-Free'ed-BSD's, or even Windows. How does running on GNU/Linux like platforms make it an "Open Source" program and 'worthy' of certification?
If you only wish to support the GPL and GPLed software, why do you keep using the words Open Source? There is a definition of what you actually advocate in word and deed called Free Software.
Re:Linux replacing Windows on the desktop (Score:4, Interesting)
Regards,
--
*Art
Re:Wag the dog (Score:4, Interesting)
However, I would like to point out that much of the "political/ethical/moral spin" attributed to open source may in fact not be "emotional baggage", but simply another level of non-functional software requirements specification.
For example, when I choose software, one of the first things I look at is license. I typically choose software with a free/open license (if available and adequate) over software with a proprietary license, even if the proprietary software happened to have a slightly larger feature set, slightly better performance, etc... That is not to say that I would never choose a piece of proprietary software, just that it has to have an *extremely* compelling feature for me to do so. Fortunately for me, virtually all tasks I do with software can be performed adequately by open source software.
I don't consider my choice to be an emotional one, I consider it to be a rational one. By choosing OSS, I guarantee that I am free from licensing/auditing issues, that I will not suffer unduly from an orphaned product or be forced to upgrade because of vendor lock-in, that I can more easily diagnose/fix bugs, etc... These are all what are known as non-functional software requirements.
Perhaps you have had no training in the engineering side of computer science, but there are two overall kinds of software requirements: functional and non-functional. Functional software requirements are the kind you clearly prefer, however not all software requirements can be boiled down to the cold, hard logic and math needed by functional requirements. You cannot specify non-functional requirements numerically, nor can you define them with predicate calculus, but they are requirements which have benefits, costs, and rationals none the less. When gathering software requirements, you ignore non-functional requirements at your own peril.
So take care the next time you accuse people of making emotional decisions. Perhaps you simply are not looking at all of the layers of their decision-making process.
counter-sue? (Score:5, Interesting)
PS: I posted this question earlier but it didn't seem to make it, so am posting it again.
Linux: Market share and penetration? (Score:3, Interesting)
Patents (Score:5, Interesting)
If you could ask yourself anything.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Thanks for your stories and comments on Slashdot. This seems like a good time to ask you a question that I think has been on everyone's mind:
If you could ask yourself anything, what would it be?
Thanks.
Historical standpoint??? (Score:2, Interesting)
As one of the more well known Open Source pundits you seem to have a pretty good handle on the main issues, from both a corporate and a hacker standpoint.
It seems to me that what we are seeing more of is a battle between pure capitalism (Microsoft, SCO, etc) and socialism (the open source method of making software) and history has proven that capitalism usually wins this war. Do you feel that, given you have been on both sides of the fence, in the long run this will be the case or do you feel that there will be a paradigm shift that will allow the open source software movement to overcome historical odds and succeed?
Warmest regards,
--Jack Wagner
Open Source Usability (Score:2, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Open Source Methodologies in other industries (Score:3, Interesting)
Open Source methodologies have turned the software industry on its head. Many proprietary principals and processes have proved to be uncompetitive and ineffective compared to equivalent Open Source methods.
I've been wondering why a lot of these principals can't be applied to other industries as well. For example, I've always thought that the political arena could benefit greatly from being Open, if every politician had to make their tax returns publicly accessible then the underlying principals and the way said politician votes would be available for everyone to see - in a similar manner to peer review of source code.
Vehicle manufacturing could also be partially Opened. Sure we don't have an Open Source manufacturing plant but shouldn't anyone with the knowledge and ability to design a car be able to submit a design (or improved design) for peer review to someone like Ford before they begin the manufacturing process? I think that companies like Ford should be that confident in their designs that they should have nothing to fear by making them Open to the public? It's not like someone can get a design and be in the position to manufacture millions of cars anyway.
So my questions are thus:
With Open Source making so many inroads in software manufacturing in such a short amount of time do you see realistic potential for the same changes to take place in other industries using similar processes?
What industries might they be?
And have you been approached by anyone that is not in the IT sector to change their businesses practices to be more open in line with the OS software model?
Thanks for reading
John the Kiwi
www.johnthekiwi.com
Homeland Security (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not Another SCO... (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, first of all, if all the symbols are in Hungarian notation, it's a fairly safe bet it's tainted code. No competent, sane programmer uses that style.
Second, a port of code from Outlook to KMail would introduce a bug, not a feature.
And finally (a serious answer), there is no way for OSS project leaders to determine by looking at it if a piece of code labors under copyright or trade secret restrictions. Patent problems are ostensibly easier to check, since patents are public (ha ha, very ha), but in practice it's just as impossible. Indeed, from the outside, there is no way to tell if tainted code introduced to an OSS project was an "honest mistake" or deliberate sabotage by hostile forces.
The only reason closed-source software vendors haven't fallen on each other like a pack of hyenas is because they keep their code -- and their potential copyright and patent transgressions -- hidden. (And they don't always succeed; just ask Informix.)
This is but one reason why Open Source is superior. It doesn't have the luxury of concealing wrongdoing, so it has to not only be scrupulously reliable, it has to be scrupulously honest. Open Source interprets patents as damage and codes around them. Thus, patent holders are not infringed against wantonly, OSS remains immune to frivolous patent claims, and you get reliable, inexpensive software. Everyone wins.
Schwab
Point Blank (Score:4, Interesting)
Better Question. (Score:5, Interesting)
I think this suit has the serious potential to harm the US economy by preventing US companies from adopting cheaper and better technologies. A the same time that US industries are delaying or scaling back their open source plans Japan, China, India, and most of Europe and South America seem to be speeding ahead. What does this mean for American industry and the economy in the short, medium and long term.
I would love to hear your views.
In light of the recent SCO issues, what do.... (Score:1, Interesting)
-AC the way to be.....
Re:Open Source and Apple (Score:3, Interesting)
Visiting Apple's Open Source pages [apple.com], a number of projects seem to benefit everyone (X11 patches, Rendezvous, etc.), while others are what I would consider self-serving (Quicktime Streaming Server, WebCore, etc.), primarily because they only run on Mac OS X (as far as I know). I'm just curious what Bruce thinks about how helpful these contributions have been to the open source community.
virtual machines wars and open source (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sick of this troll. (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh sure you have. In 1976 Bill Gates put it better. [blinkenlights.com] It's "Sharing is bad and if you don't pay me money, there will be no software." It's shifted to "free software will never make a working kernel" and "free software will never make easy to use software." and finally, "free software must be stollen to work." Get with the program, you are way out of date. Free software has produced many working kernels, losts of software that's easier to use than comercial software and shows no signs of slowing down.
A few snake oil salesmen have gotting rich does not disprove doctors earn a living or even that you can make a living selling snake oil. People earn a living making things work, not writing one size fits all, must be replaced every two years, standards ignoring, buggy, software. These people will continue to earn a living when Microsoft and friends are just a bad and seemingly unbelievable memory, like national news anchors talking about blow jobs in the White House.
Your question should be reversed and asked elsewhere. "Given the colapse of so many closed source shops, like Netscape, Lotus or SCO, how stable is your firm? Are you going to be here in five years? How can you keep your market when your users are co-operating to make software that works better than the stuff you sell? What do I have to gain from developing software for your platform again?"
Apple Steals from Open Source... (Score:5, Interesting)
Your question is good because it would be interesting to see if Bruce's opinions on Apple are still the same, and does he now think the company is genuine? Has it given back a sufficient amount or is it paying lip service only?
Re:Linux replacing Windows on the desktop (Score:4, Interesting)
And is there any chance of Macintosh ever replacing Windows on the desktop? The answer, as virtually everyone but the most mislead Mac zealot knows, is No. But unquestionably Apple has the user experience & terminal tools down pat; if Apple dosen't have a hope, how can Linux?
They obviously have a system that's "good enough" - what else does it take? What can Linux learn from Apple's experience trying to break into the mainstream?
Much of what we're doing in Open Source... (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course part of the reason for this is that the seventies and early-eighties were an incredibly creative and productive period for software ideas. But... why has it stopped? The successful open source operating systems - the BSDs, Linux, the Hurd - are all based on UN*X, based on paradigms about how people use and share information which are rigid and hierarchical.
Of course there are open source operating systems based on other ideas, but so far none of them is making any break through. Is there a radically different Open Source operating system that you, personally, are excited by? If not, why not? Have we learned nothing in the last thirty years?
Changes in the law (Score:2, Interesting)
Future of Debian and Past Project Leaders... (Score:1, Interesting)
Can debian expect to have a return of the Cabal? Will you, Wichert and other Cabalites be tutoring the Debian Acolites on the secret rites of the Cabal, and how these mysterious rituals are the One True Way to an OS that Does Not Suck? Most importantly, could you teach the rest of us how to explain why a C++ or Java app is not the best candidate for a default package selector? (It seems so obvious, but after hearing it suggested time, after time, after time one begins to doubt one's faith in reason).
The best feature of the "other" OS? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm sure there are going to be plenty of linux, SCO, GPL, and other excellent questions posted, but I prefer the more interesting, lets not preach to the choir here (heck, I can guess Peren's opinion on the SCO vs. World case, on IP, on the Linux desktop, etc).
Here's my question (actually 2 questions, cleverly disguised as one):
What are the five best technological features of Windows (2k, XP, etc) that the OS movement (GNU/Linux, and xBSD) is missing? From a technological perspective, where has the OS movement failed, and proprietary software succeeded?
Software Vendors and Distribution Compatibility (Score:2, Interesting)
I think this question needs a qualifier... (Score:3, Interesting)
But I imagine many OSS developers have many programs they want to develop, both big and small. And in that respect I think the question is very good - is it the big projects or the small projects that push software forward? Where is the work most likely to bring out good results?
Kjella
Software Patents vs. Free software (Score:1, Interesting)
Is there anything, short of revamping the patent system as a whole, that we can do to stop this?
The Linking Mystery (Score:2, Interesting)