Mom Meets Linux - A Lindows 4.0 Review 565
JimLynch writes "We just put up the first review of Lindows 4.0, with a twist. I actually gave it to my Mom to see if she could use it. Find out if Lindows 4.0 passed the "Mom Test.""
Variables don't; constants aren't.
The one Mom-Test failure (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux needs advertising in the popular media. Sure, I can see Linux ads in computer magazines; however, when I turn my TV on, I see ads about how much money you can save by switching to .NET. We need advertising to gain the mindshare we need to become popular. A friendly desktop is a good start; now we have something that we can advertise. Now we need to get the word out there.
Before the Lindows bashing begins... (Score:5, Insightful)
The more the desktop market becomes fractured, them more open standards have to be. The more companies will be willing to release hardware documentation (let the community write drivers, instead of attempting to write for 8 OSes). So, even if you don't like this distro, consider that the 'the average home user' buying a distro like this might still be a good thing.
-t
Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
dumbing down? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, so Lindows can replace Windows on the desktop at home, so that the average user can be productive.
But have we really done ourselves any favors?
It seems that we have done nothing more than create a windows "clone", with a brand new feature set of security problems.
Do we really want to compete with microsoft at that level? They have far more experience in the insecurity realm than we do.
They'll beat us to death with experience.
Hmmm.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, when Microsoft does this several times a year people just shrug and wait for the patch of the patch.
I just don't know if Lindows will be able to survive if they don't implement the update process in any way less than perfect - they don't have the acceptance and power of the Redmond giant.
myke
Re:The one Mom-Test failure (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:mother test (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The one Mom-Test failure (Score:5, Insightful)
i mean, counting eyeballs, mindshare
'mom' failing to find a way to write a document seems to me to be a failure of the program-centric interface - rather than something 'task-centric'.
why didn't they just have a 'compose' button or something on the interface?
eg compose->[email | IM | local document | code]
eg browse->[my documents | internet | network]
and then launch an app accordingly. WHAM! mindshare problem solved.
'mom' didn't even immediately assume there was a 'start' button if you notice. which should tell you that she doesn't immediately assume that's how desktops should work. she wanted/needed to write a document, and when she discovered lindows 'L' was apparently set up to mimic the windows 'start' she -then- figured that Office must have been there somewhere. because it was trying to be just like her trusty old windows box.
don't fall into the 'mindshare' trap. windows is most vulnerable -because- it takes experience and training to know how to use it and predict how new apps/features should behave.
mindshare indicates the problem is insurmountable marketing challenges (education and exposure)- and if you'll notice, the only solution to the 'mindshare' is
This Test seems a bit weak (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:frightening (Score:3, Insightful)
Usability and functionality don't have to be mutually exclusive, and there's nothing "elite" about a system that has such a usability barrier. Although, that might be a neat way to pawn off user requests - "oh, you don't need that mod, do you? You're such an elite user, you know..."
Re:Before the Lindows bashing begins... (Score:1, Insightful)
Sure, if Lindows was trying to peg itself as a power-user-geek distro for Linux, and came at us with this. Most people would shake their heads and be rather annoyed.
But, the goal of Lindows is to bring linux out of a 'geek-toy' world, and into the real market with real 'avg' users able to install it, run it and not have a steep learning curve to get over.
If Lindows was doing a *bad* job at its goal, was hard to install, you had to tweak 1001 different things to get working. Then sure, by all means, bash it. But, the only people I can see trying to bash Lindows as it stands now, are the people who want to keep Linux as their own elite little 'geek toy'.
If we want companies to start writing software for Linux, supporting Linux, having true cross-platform standards and sticking to them, we need as many people using Linux as possible. Need to create the user base before the companies will take notice, and Lindows is a step in the right direction to expanding that user base.
Re:My mom... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The one Mom-Test failure (Score:5, Insightful)
A computer is a tool. It helps me get things done. I'm naturally going to use the most efficient tool I can find. If you can find a way to increase my efficiency instead of just emulating the Windows environment and adding some fancy right-click menu, then you've got yourself a convert.
I'm not convinced (Score:5, Insightful)
Somehow, I think the results of the "Mom Test" will be a little different under those circumstances.
Not much of a test (Score:4, Insightful)
Let Mom Tell It. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My mom... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know how many times at work I've watched people spend 5 or more minutes going slowly through all the files in Windows Explorer, reading every filename, ctrl-click selecting all the *.blah files, so they can then drag. A couple of times, I've said "You want to see an easier way?" and start/run/cmd, cd \blah, copy *.blah d:\temp. There. 15 seconds, we're done.
Then watch someone trying to navigate to my computer on the network....Network Neighborhood....Microsoft Windows Network....Company Domain.....Workgroup....."Wait, what workgroup are you in?....back out....other workgroup....Ah, there's (my initials).
"So next time, why not click start/run, and type \\(my initials) and you won't have to worry about what workgroup or domain or whatever I'm in?"
YARGH! I swear, people WANT to be stupid. Either that or they think they can catch a disease from the keyboard and not the mouse.
I've given up.
Re:mother test (Score:5, Insightful)
The 'Mom Test' is a serious benchmark; it's name is not to be invoked lightly. The Mom Test involves nothing less than installing an OS on your mom's home desktop and seeing if she can figure out how to do all the things she would normally do with MS-Windows. If, after a month or so, your mom hasn't called you and demanded that you return her to Microsoft-Land, then (and only then) can the OS be said to have passed the 'Mom Test'.
Re:Mindshare (Score:5, Insightful)
Not A Valid Test (Score:4, Insightful)
Mom: Hi. The power went off over here and now I can't get my computer to work.
Me: Uhm, OK. Does it do anything at all?
Mom: Well, the printer is on, and the screen says "Check connection".
Me: Hmmm. Alright. Is everything plugged in?
Mom: Yes, it looks like it. All the little doohickies are in the back of the computer.
Me: (avoiding this until the last--it just can't be the cause) Is the computer turned on?
Mom: I think so. There's something on the screen.
Me: Uhm, I meant, did you actually push the power button on the computer?
Mom: Nooo. Should I?
Me: (after a pause) Yeah, that might be a good idea.
Mom: Oh! There it is! Now it's working!
Me: (sigh) Well, there you go. Let me know if you have any other problems with it.
Now, if they'd tried their test with my mom, I don't think they would have faired quite as well.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of Linux on the desktop has been the nerdish nature of the whole installation, configuration and user experience. Your average PC user (and most likely non-/. reader) is doing good to figure out how to get a printer connected to their Windows machine. The typical Linux distro is a no-go for these folks. Forget configuring a NIC, modifying the defaults for Gnome or KDE, or trying to figure out how to FTP a file from an xterm shell prompt. It just won't happen. MS has made Windows what it is not on its technical merits, but because it's been dumbed-down to the point where almost anyone can make it do something useful right out of the box with only a modest amount of coaching. A while back Russ Mitchell offered this [wired.com] rather negative view of Linux's chances on the desktop. While not everything he says is golden, a lot of it does apply, and should be seriously considered by anyone with dreams of seeing MS pushed into the backseat. Apparently someone at Lindows did bother to pay attention and start to make the Linux experience less painful for those without the inclination or ability to fiddle around under the hood.
And before you poo-poo those poor sods who can't grok a regular expression or launch a background task from bash, just remember this: They're the ones with most of the disposable income, not us nerds, and Bill Gates et. al. know it.
Re:St00pid Lindows (Score:2, Insightful)
Make your own puppy-walking distribution that starts simple - so there's nothing for neophytes to fear - and grows up with you rather than holding you back. {How about a file manager with a window that shows you what you could have typed into a terminal to achieve the same effect -- it would be off by default, but you could turn it on once you felt ready for it?} Make it better than Mandrake or Lindows. Make it easy to customise, so you can add features as you become more confident. {Start building web pages with a HTML editor -> put in your own Apache server -> do some programming in PHP -> progress to a "real" language -> become a kernel hacker
You can do it. All the bits are out there, for free -- all it is going to take is a bit of custom scripting to hold it all together. Nobody is stopping anybody from doing it.
Unless you can't be bothered to do it, in which case you've no place slagging off those that have at least tried.
Re:a new slogan (Score:2, Insightful)
If he's a *true* nerd, isn't that a given?
Re:My mom... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, what people want is to be lazy. Yes, I know, it's far more work to do all that clicking etc., but that's the way you see it.
As the people who prefer to do all that laborious run-around probably see it, it's far more preferable than the laborious task of trying to remember arcane commands and the syntax and order of arguments. Don't even think about adding flags.
I know that it seems so terribly obvious to you, but methinks you're a little more in-tune with common advanced computer concepts and maybe even know a little programming, yes? The kind of structured logic involved in using the command-line comes easy, yes? Well, it doesn't for other people, and muscle energy is cheap compared to brainpower.
Plus, all that clicking and dragging gets them 5 minutes closer to quitting time without having to actually do any work. So I'm guessing that they really just want to be lazy, because I don't think anybody really wants to be perceived as stupid.
As an aside, people don't seem to mind being 'selectively ignorant'. One of the most brilliant programmers I know, an old Unix hack from way back, has absolutely no idea how to hook up a hard drive or deal with any other aspect of hardware manipulation, and has no intention of ever learning. "That stuff is for sysadmins and support people" - go figure.
Re:My mom... (Score:4, Insightful)
funny... clicking on the view->details menu function and then clicking on the type tab sort's by extension for me.
click on top boob.mp3 and shift-click on the last Zeeb.mp3 drag to Jaz drive/network drive/kazaa share and it's magically done.
in fact I can do it faster than you can open a shell and type your command....
I agree, most users are so brain-dead they smell bad, but you are just as mis-informed as they seem to be.
Re:My mom... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you realize there are now at least 5 responses telling you how to copy 'all of the *.mp3 files in a directory to a floppy'.
I realize that the mp3 format may be used for things BESIDES individual songs ripped from CDs or downloaded, but the VAST majority of mp3 files are exactly this.
So... back to the genius part - you just had some (presumably) computer gurus explain how to take a directory full of 3-4 meg (average) sized files, and copy them onto a floppy disk.
LOL!!
Oh, and to ensure I don't get a shitload of 'offtopic' mods, I'm typing this from my parent's machine... with a fresh copy of Lindows 4.0 installed... and they are already enjoying it.
Mom used it, or mom installed it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Each user can then do whatever they please in their environment, as they learn it. If they screw up, replacing to defaults is as trivial as a file copy.
USING linux is NOT hard. Administering it MAY be, but I find the guesswork with configuring and installing software on Microsoft's end-user offerings to be much more painful.
Re:If this guy's mom is like my mom... (Score:4, Insightful)
PC: Press the space bar to continue... ;-)
Mom: What happened!? What do I do now?
Me: Um, did you read the screen?
Mom: Oh.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Re:Before the Lindows bashing begins... (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? only windows has this problem... linux does not.
Hell I can wipe my redhat or slackware or whatever I want this week and reinstall and magically my desktop for gnome and all my mozilla favorites, emails, and documents are there...
it's called being smart and making
backing up a user completely is 100000% effortless under linux... it is a major pain in the ass that usually don't work in windows.
until windows developers pull their heads out of their asses and NOT ALLOW users to put files anywhere but their home directory as default out of the box, and make it easy to migrate user 3256897 from one laptop to another without the ownership/permissions hell and that bulls**T that is the registry, windows will be very far behind linux in that aspect.
Re:What about the Dad test? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:My mom... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Mom-Test FAILED (Score:2, Insightful)
1) He had to install OpenOffice *himself* before Mom got on.
2) He had to prompt Mom, after waiting for her to find MS Office, that she should be looking for something else.
So, she *couldn't* find the MS Office substitute, and *wouldn't* have been able to find it in Lindows, because it isn't installed by default.
How is that passing the test at all? The computer didn't catch fire while she was using it?
Re:My mom... (Score:3, Insightful)
I just had to tech someone in our marketing department on how to put a fucking file in a fucking directory. Not on the command line. Not via ftp or WebDAV. A regular Windows file into a regular Windows directory.
People who claim to know how to use Windows in fact do not. They know how to use certain Windows programs. They are program-centric, not file-centric. I want to feel sorry for them, until I realize that they put "Windows use" on their resume, which was a fucking lie. Now I can hate them with a clear conscience.
Sorry for the rant, but it just happened 25 minutes ago.
Re:The one Mom-Test failure (Score:4, Insightful)
That right there is the difference between a geek and a normal computer user, no matter how experienced. To me, a computer is nothing short of the world's greatest puzzle. It's to be toyed and tinkered with. If my tinkering breaks it, that's wonderful because I then have the opportunity to fix it. You can't fix what ain't broke, and where's the fun if it isn't broken in some way?
But I understand that most people are not that way, and that's why Linux is so cool. It can be whatever you want it to be: a super easy desktop, a super powerful desktop, a server, an embedded OS - all in the same kernel, but with dfferent wrappers.
Kudos to Lindows for trying to bring Linux to the inexperienced masses.
Re: Mom-Test FAILED (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for playing. (Score:3, Insightful)
The non-tech-savvy people, OTOH, have basic needs that can easily be addressed by Linux: e-mail, internet, instant messaging, mp3 player, p2p app, word processing. That is all they need and want. If someone will wake up and do this (I suspect Lindows is in the best position) so that when it is installed, all this is good to go - you'd have the OS for your mom.
Now let me tell you why mom matters: Mom is looking for the cheapest PC there is. If you can undersell a Windows box with a Linux box, then you've just won. Also, marketing works. I suspect by your website you don't put much faith in marketing, but sales and marketing people make or break the product in the real world. You could have the best product there is, but if you don't have the right people hyping it up, there will be no sales=no money=you're out of a job.
Mom watches TV. She reads the magazines. If something promises to do something easier/cheaper/better/faster/safer/etc, she'll be interested. People listen to marketing. If she sees this, she'll install it. If Dad uses it at work, and he brings it home, kids will use it. You've just created a two-prong attack that does very well. You expose the kids from a young age. Everyone starts to use it more. If you're the dad or mom, work with they kids and they'll love it. You've just created a completely Linux family. That wasn't so hard to see why Mom needs advertising, is it?
Re:XP Mom Test (Score:2, Insightful)
You've got things all twisted around, but I don't blame you. Many people have this perception. Mom's not the one being tested, the OS is. The computer should be meeting the user's needs. If it does not, the failing is the result of the software. (All right, there are some users who will consistently be disappointed, at least for the forseeable future.)
When people are unable to perform tasks in Windows the perceived fault is with them, and when people are unable to perform tasks with alternative software, the fault is with the software. This perception is one more thing that needs to change before Microsoft's dominance will fade. Advocates of Linux or other systems need to do two things, in this order:
1) Encourage people to have higher expectations from their computer
2) Meet those expectations
Apple has been doing the second for a long time, but it's only with the new 'Switch' campaign that they're trying to address the first. We should all be cheering them on, because if they can do it, things will be better for everybody (even Microsoft users, assuming Microsoft picks up on point number 2).
Re:My mom... (Score:2, Insightful)
Depending on their generation, that really might not be so bad. I think we lose sight of just how scared the majority of people are of computers. I was listening to a radio show the other day, and on it a teacher was in the middle of a distance learning class about teaching technology to younger kids. The teacher was actually a little confused by the idea of hitting links to get to the next lesson, and I think that's really the norm rather than the exception for some generations right now. For them, having learned what button to press in order to get out of a window does in fact mean they know how to use windows.
Now, if someone got a job instead of me by saying they had ten years of experience with C#, then I'd be rather annoyed at resume shanagins.
Re:St00pid Lindows (Score:2, Insightful)
You haven't read the GPL have you? You must only provide the source for the software.
"The pricing of Click N' Run software has changed from $49.95 a year to $4.95 a month" That means it's $60 a year!!!
Wrong. The pricing is either $49.95 a year or $4.95 a month. If you wish to pay monthly instead of yearly then you pay more, this is a common practice.
I think the OSS/GPL community should focus on making a seriously usable, more efficient and stable UI w/ a simple and powerful API. Maybe ditch X & C? I think that Java, Python, AOP, self-generating code (like LISP) and langugages w/ embedded expert knowlege systems (something like JESS) are the future... platform specific apps are headed for the dust-bin of history: C does not scale well and there's too many hacks/incompatibilities/evil things and C++ polymorphism is a inconsistent, incomplete kludge. You can argue and justify *NIX & C all day long, but the security issues (strcmp, gets) and wild pointers give programs zero protection, almost like each program is an old skool DOS machine, where it can go wild writing shit everywhere w/ pointers w/o security. I propose that programs and libraries have defensive security models *built-in*, so that private data is actually secured, in a real way.
Sounds nifty. How about you give me a copy when you've got a beta. Seriously though, no one cares what you think the OSS community should do. The whole point is to do what you want to be done. The source is open so you don't have to re-implement everything on your own. Whoever feels it's a good idea to implement "your" ideas, and is knowledgeable enough to do so, will do just that. So I suggest if you really want something like that then create it or shut up.
Re:Not A Valid Test (Score:2, Insightful)
My view has been that the best Linux app out there is TiVo, and it represents a good model for use of Linux in consumer electronics - as an embedded OS. Lindows is interesting because that is essentially what it is, a preloaded OS on inexpensive hardware, designed to allow someone to browse, email, and do some basic backoffice work. Lindows should really work with a hardware vendor to package all in a little box, not much bigger than a drive, to make a turnkey product.
Russ Mitchell is right about the effort wasted recreating the desktop. GNU/Linux community seems to be obsessed with the XP desktop. Why bother with a lookalike? To save $50? OK, throw in Office and make it $300. If I'm a professional, $300 is still cheap when I know all of my other software will work with the machine. If all I want to do is browse, email and print a few letters or whatever, Lindows is fine.
That's why I believe there will be two winners in the Linux world - Lindows or some Lindows like company (CE device), and Red Hat (enterprise). Once again thinking of TiVo, it has a customized interface (not looking for XP here!) suited for its task and does what I expect. In the enterprise arena, big corporations will likely go with Red Hat which seems to have the momentum now. All the other distros will become hobby horses.
Easy enough to fix... (Score:2, Insightful)
I guarantee you that most of the time, Moms will not even notice the difference, at least mine will just assume her memory about how the software looked the last time just let her down.
But WHERE is the data stored (Score:3, Insightful)
In any OS it's easy to migrate personal data, if you know what you are doing and where the data is stored.
But that is the point, in windows you don't know where the #@%^^%* data is stored. In linux your data is in /home/username, and you don't have the ability to write to much else (/tmp, which could perhaps be renamed to temperary_data, but I think that is clear enough already). Unfortunatly writing to floppies isn't as easy, and syncing for a laptop users is a pain. At least the data is easy to find, compare that to a Windows machine that several people will use.
I just helped a Windows XP user try to find some data. She opens WordPerfect (came with the comptuer), writes something, saves it, and then can't find it again. I eventially found it, but not in her directory, in some other users directory. Worse, I couldn't even figgure out how to make it start saving HER files to her directory. And this is a simple singer user computer. I challenge you to setup a typical windows machine on a network enviroment where the users won't know in advance which machine they will use on any given day.
Re:My mom... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do YOU realize the slight difference in wording between what he said and what all of those other responses are chastizing him for?
HE said "there's no way to sort by extension". All of the replies calling him an idiot are telling him how to "sort by 'Type'". In most cases, "file type" is unique enough that each extension has it's own file type. However, the "file type" varies depending on what software you've installed on your computer that decides to 'claim' those extensions.
If the software decides to just give multiple extensions the same file type name, you end up with multiple filename extensions that are sorted as though they are identical to each other. So in the example he gave: if you'd installed Winamp (or any number of those crap media player packages that many OEMs put on their computers before they ship them), then you COULD have multiple extensions including
So if you have a folder with lots of files in it, ending in
There ARE ways of getting a list of files that match a certain extension from within the GUI (like other people have pointed out, using the Search/Find tool), but what he actually said was correct, and does not deserve your sarcastic bashing. Your post should not have been modded 'offtopic', but rather 'flamebait'.
Most people that don't want to learn console commands aren't going to want to learn "WindowsKey+F, copy current folder location, paste in 'Look in' box, type file extension in 'Named' box, click 'Find Now' button, select all" either.
Comment removed (Score:1, Insightful)