SCO Protest And Anti-Protest In Provo 865
a.ameri writes "On Friday, June 20, the Provo Linux Users Group decided to head on over to SCO's offices and hold a protest; information on the event, including pictures and press coverage, can be found on
the PLUG page. Among other things, the protesters claim that SCO employes came out and joined the event holding pre-prepared signs saying things like 'I love software piracy' and 'Try communism - use Linux.'" There are some funny shots linked here (thanks to reader lucif latum). Daddio64 points to the press covereage in the Deseret News and Provo Daily Herald.
Uh, note to SCO (Score:5, Insightful)
Earth to SCO. SCO come in now...I think we lost 'em.
Don't jump to conclusions about the SCO people... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's the people who don't have a shred of humor left and, more importantly, weren't even there who seem to be take everything SCO employees touch as being an insult.
I work across the street from SCO. I was at the protest. At one point, I was one of the people carrying a SCO-produced sign (as a JOKE. At one point I even saw picketters holding SCO signs). If you were there you'd know that the entire event -- albeit serious in its message -- was taken in good spirits by pretty much everyone. I'd be surprised if anyone seriously though the SCO signs were meant to be anything but fun.
You remember FUN, don't you?? It's like when you're in a bar watching a football game and there are folks rooting for the other team in the bar with you; friendly "traitor" jabs are tossed back and forth, joking insinuations are made, and in the end you all laugh together and say "bye" when you leave.
You may want to read the rest of that message as well, and just give it a rest... Not if Slashdot hasn't dumped enough vitriol on SCO already lately.
Re:Image Problems? (Score:1, Insightful)
Allowing comments like these to be made publicly by employees is absolutly not the way to run a business.
Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Communist Nazi's? (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.kuwan.net/scoAntiProtest/scoAntiProt
Is rather amusing. Not only do the folks at SCO apparently not have internet access, so they can use something like babelfish to look up the proper spelling of "ja vol" (ja wohl) they also seem to think Nazi's were communist instead of fascist?
Someone didn't do to well in their WW2 history class!
This will NOT help SCO's... (Score:3, Insightful)
Analogizing drugs and Open Source is 13-year-old crap, and I'm sure ESR and others will have a ball with this.
Nice going SCO. Thanks for proving (in "graphic" detail) what kind of corporation you truly represent.
SCO can't distinguish Communism from nazi Germany. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Slightly OT - The SCO dog ;) (Score:4, Insightful)
And the readers see it and go, "Hey, I use Linux! And I know about SCO! And I know the original cartoon!"
This really is pointless for all parties. (Score:5, Insightful)
SCO will be soon be a shell company. They might as well be making buggy whips. I think this is the ultimate agenda of the leadership, they just hope to cash out with the settlement from IBM.
It was interesting to me how the PR folks tried to associate Linux with software piracy and communism. I don't think this is because of a real misperception on their part, it seems much more likely to be spin-directed FUD. It's more pathetic than enraging to me.
It really all seems like a legal strategy to exploit the fact that our IP laws have not really caught up with the PC revolution. They might get some money from IBM, if they do, they leverage their legal victory and liquid revenues to bump the stock price and sell the company. It won't fool Warren Buffet or Peter Lynch, but there are still plenty of fools with money in the world.
This type of business strategy--utterly bereft of moral values--has not yet entirely faded from view. The real tragedy is not the threat to Linux, but the threat to SCO employees and investors. I don't see this working out well for them in any way. Some lawyers will get rich, though.
So, follow the money. SCO is now a lawsuit machine. IBM will survive this no matter how it turns out. SCO won't.
Re:Mad? (Score:5, Insightful)
And in a few months he (or she, you goddamn PC assholes) will have a lot more time to read /. SCO has not just filed suit against IBM, they have declared war against the rest of the IT world. (Linux = Communism?!?!)
These people better start thinking towards the post-SCO world, much like the concentration camp guards started making nice towards the end of WWII.
You see, even if they win their lawsuit against IBM and everybody else, they will be a pariah in the tech community. Nobody will do business with them, and eventually they'll spend their $3 billion on operating expenses and tacos and go bankrupt.
And most of the OSS community will be saying goodbye good riddance.
Re:Read this before bashing SCO (Score:2, Insightful)
protest in stride. However, it does nothing to boost my view of SCO.
All there actions like picking on Linus, ignoring basic facts, etc
are nothing but wrong, immoral and mean spirited.
Let me amend what I just said a little. My view of the management
of SCO is very low, I feel bad for the employees though.
Re:Read this before bashing SCO (Score:2, Insightful)
Do we have a guarantee of this? Or was it posted by a SCO employee?
It was very hot that day so Canopy provided drinks for everyone
Who is Canopy (excuse my ignorance)?
It's like when you're in a bar watching a football game and there are folks rooting for the other team in the bar
Sports teams don't usually sue each other though. Instead they find out who is the best on the field of play. The equivalent here would be SCO and Linux competing to see who can produce the best code.
but people can disagree without hating each other
Creating a poster insuating Linux == Communism == Fascism is not a reasonable disagrement imho. It sounds like hatred to me, or very unprofessional at the very least. I would be seriously worried if I was a SCO shareholder when they are allowing their employees to represent their company like this.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Note that I'm not a linux dork being defensive, I think it's pretty pointless to go out there and protest, I just like to point out possible hypocrisy when I see it.
Re:Read this before bashing SCO (Score:5, Insightful)
There are times for fun, and there are times for seriously defending what you think is important.
This is a time to take up a rigid position, and this isn't an appropriate area for feel-good games. Put plainly: The world's single most important piece of free software and the future of free software's acceptance are at stake.
Re:When you think about it... (Score:1, Insightful)
I will grant you that the people involved are nowhere near 'KKK' status, but it gets the point across. When the good guys make jokes, it's more acceptable and funny. It's "us" vs. "the man", you know? That's the thinking. Stick it to The Man, etc.
When The Man retaliates, though, it's not cool, and The Man just cackles while the good guys see it as just more oppression from The Man. Whatever humor that was supposed to be there might as well be in invisible ink. (Besides, it wasn't really that funny. Cute, sure, but not really funny. It's as if someone wrote "BURN THE FETUSES!" with a flaming tot next to it.)
So basically what I'm saying here is: you workin' for The Man!? *nut-kick*
Re:Don't jump to conclusions about the SCO people. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd reached the conclusion a long time ago that Linux was grossly overrated, but it's also done great things for my workplace and my research field, and it's a shame to see another sleazebag IP holding company try to hijack that. I don't condone IP theft or DDoS attacks on SCO's website, but I also wouldn't speak to the likes of Darl McBride except through a lawyer.
Oh, by the way, the Communism thing isn't funny any more. It's not McCarthyism, but it's pretty fucking stupid and offensive. Most of us in The Real World use and like Linux because it helps us do our jobs and make (and save!) money, not because it fits our half-baked socialist ideals.
SCO really does want to own Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
"Linux could still be used; it just wouldn't be free," Stowell said. "These people are upset because they've been enjoying a free ride for some time. They're upset their free ride will potentially be gone."
I think that this pretty much puts to rest the question of whether or not SCO wants to own Linux.
Part of the problem is that this wouldn't work. Under the GPL, if you can't distribute it for free, you can't distribute it at all. To relicense Linux as an SCO-0wned product, you'd have to get the agreement of all the contributors. I doubt that that would happen.
Friendly? (Score:3, Insightful)
Its called baiting (Score:5, Insightful)
Humor or no, SCO signs are wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether it was intended for humor or not, SCO owes Linus and the OSS community a formal appology.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure about that. Let's see theres a BILLION dollar lawsuit, linux's reputation has been tarnished, IBMs AIX licenses are now in question, Linus himself is getting threatened, and now they're hurling insults under the guise of "just kidding!"
Its like that wanna-be bully in gradeschool who insults you then says, "I'm kidding!" Its a lame attempt to bait OSS types and get them angry thus producing more negative press.
ironic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Image Problems? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, right. What planet are YOU on?
- The right of free speech is a restriction preventing the government from limiting your speech. It is standard practice for companies to tell their employees what they should and shouldn't say to the press.
- Do you think for an instant that SCO would allow any of their employees to keep their jobs if they stood out their and SUPPORTED the protestors? That would be a MEANINGFUL test of their right of free speech. If the company didn't want them to come "out of the SCO building with pre-prepared posters for the protest" do you think they would allow them to? Their lawyers would most certainly have sent memos around telling the employees exactly how they were expected to behave.
In short, the notion that these folks aren't supported by SCO or that SCO wouldn't stop them if they didn't support such activities is ludicrous and absurd. Anyone who would harbor such delusions should seek professional help.Re:Read this before bashing SCO (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Humor or no, SCO signs are wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Blake Stowells Comments... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe he needs to be reminded about GPL and what it stands for. I hate to tell you this Blake, but you and your bullshit company will get annhilated by IBM.
It sickens me that companies (and people) like this feel that potential threats to their business can potentially be converted into revenue streams simply because they have (in the short term at least) money to throw away on lawyers and big threats.
I hope IBM leave the judicial equivilant of a smouldering crater where the SCO office stood.
They don't care (Score:4, Insightful)
They aren't the same company as Caldera once was - even Ransom Love is gone. I'd seriously doubt if any employees of the company from 2 years ago are there, and most of those from a year ago are probably gone.
The only thing that exists of the Caldera we once knew are the records of its past. It's just a bunch of lawyers at this point, and maybe a few remaining techies.
It is now a purely parasitic organization - and we can all just hope that the remaining IP around Unix is either opened (as being "generic" now) or that the IP is bought by a company that (like AT&T) allows its free use.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed.
Unfortunately, actions like these take the whole point away from having the protest in the first place.
I recognize that "techies" are not particularly good at protesting stuff; that's not what they do and there is no reason why they should be. However, this action by Canopy (provide drinks for everyone, buddy-buddy with folks there and "We're all friends now!") was a calculated public relations move to diffuse the impact of the protest.
If the protest was a cold, "Screw you SCO" affair, that's a real protest and will be portrayed as such. This, however, appears to have been turned into a simple picnic on SCO's front lawn.
Which is exactly what SCO wanted.
I wonder if we are looking at this the wrong way (Score:5, Insightful)
I have seen tons of comments about how what SCO is doing is very odd
At this point they are only damaging their reputation and making people question the reputation of linux. They have destroyed any semblance of a "corporate image". They company that will potentially benefit the most from this whole scandal is MS. I mean look at how quickly they sent funds to SCO. By paying SCO they were trying to "legitimize" SCO's claims in the public eye. I wouldn't be suprised to see a MS buyout of SCO in the neer future.
Re:pro-linux sco employees (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Communist Nazi's? (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, but not Cuba, China, Cambodia, North Korea, or Vietnam. They were/are the peace loving communists...
Perhaps the peace loving ones are just not in power. Note that I'm not saying I think communism works, but I'm tired of people indiscriminately branding it evil.
Btw, in Soviet Russia a person was defenseless against the government. In the United States a person will soon be defenseless against corporations. Is this a failure of capitalism or of the government?
Re:Read this before bashing SCO (Score:2, Insightful)
First of all, the post contradicts its own statement that the protest "was taken in good spirits by pretty much everyone". The author goes on to state that he/she isn't even sure that no one misinterpreted the SCO signs. Its really just his/her guess that everyone else found it funny.
Comparing people to Hitler, making light of significant historical events that had huge casualties and singling out specific people isn't light-hearted, joking, funny humor - its satire or the stuff political cartoons are made of, even worse its what controversial cable network commentaries that claim to be news shows use to get people's attention. (Basically, this kind of stuff that is guaranteed to offend someone, regardless of the intentions.) These kind of catalytic comparisons utilized at protests in outdoor public places aren't what the status quo implicitly sees as "fun" or "funny". In fact, I don't think protests are typically seen as fun events. (Aren't there so many better ways to spend a Friday?) This "protest" is starting to sound like a party.
Next, I fail to see how portraying the whole event as more of a party than a protest is causing me to think before bashing SCO (or anyone). Obviously, if the protested issues are going to court, its not much of a party for anyone, except possibly legal parties who might end up making money.
In defense of the quoted poster, we have no idea of the original context. All we see is this post. But that just begs the question of why this is relevant information even more.
Before suggesting that there is another side to SCO's response to be found in this information, at least present some clear evidence within an established context.
WBGG
Re:Buy SCO, fire everyone (Score:4, Insightful)
In the end game: suit or no suit, settlement or no settlement, SCO has little to sell and nobody to sell it to. If IBM takes a hardline attitude (and they win), SCO will be unable to deploy their executive golden parachutes. If McBride & associates actually want to continue their careers, then it becomes interesting.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Communist Nazi's? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? Point out an example of communism that wasn't or isn't evil.
In the United States a person will soon be defenseless against corporations. Is this a failure of capitalism or of the government?
The government. Sometimes I wonder if corporate power isn't a way around the constitution. Corporations should never have been declared to be "people."
Re:Communist Nazi's? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Why? Point out an example of communism that wasn't or isn't evil."
That's very hard, but my point was that Marx would probably not agree with the things those countries are doing. And I repeat, I don't think communism can work. However, I do think that some of the ideals are worth striving for. But perhaps socialism would be a better word.
"The government. Sometimes I wonder if corporate power isn't a way around the constitution. Corporations should never have been declared to be \"people.\""
That's what I meant. If we can't blame capitalism for the current situation - and we shouldn't - then we should be very careful about blaming communism for the USSR etc.
Re:Its called baiting (Score:4, Insightful)
At this stage, ANY coverage that SCO gets directly benifits them. This is precisely why they have chosen to "dribble" out little bits of information, escalate their rhetoric and claims and generally try this case in the media BEFORE getting to court.
The best thing the Linux community could do is to start shaping the "language" of the case in the court of public opinion, making sure that the language is centered on "where's the evidence?"....
The burden is on them to show where copying took place...do NOT allow them to start making this a case about "Linux helps terrorists" or "Linux is for criminals"....they will attempt to shift the argument to this, baiting us to defend our "non-criminal" status....if it gets that far, they've won...
The best answer is to follow IBM's lead..."we've done nothing wrong, so there's no need for comment"....followed by media blackout. This would hurt SCO more than a few signs and protesters.....keep them out of the spotlight, and every time they announce another increase in damages or whatnot, they will appear more shrill....
Shun them completely!....and DONT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS!...but most importantly, stay away from this rabid dog....stay far away....
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed, this despite the increasingly obvious fact that the French were right [tallahassee.com]. But hey, if we make enough clever anti-French jokes, maybe we won't have to face up to how idiotic we look now.
Re:When you think about it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? Which ones did you think were funny? What did you think was funny about them?
Why is it that some people from the Linux camp are all about free speech... that is, when the free speech is not targeted against them.
Dunno, but thankfully a righteous supporter of free speech like yourself obviously won't object at all to my pointing out the possibility that you must be retarded if those posters were your idea of humorous?
This could have been solved much easier (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Image Problems? (Score:3, Insightful)
DUH! The protest is happening in the U.S., so I'd think it obvious to everyone that the laws of the U.S. are applicable. Apparently you aren't familiar with the idiomatic expression "What planet are YOU on"--here in the U.S. it can be interpreted as "Are you as clueless about U.S. law as a Norwegian is about U.S. idiomatic expressions?"
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Humor or no, SCO signs are wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Most strategic alliances are based on self-interest rather than ideology.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:3, Insightful)
I had a number of friends in college and high school who smoked pot regularly. Many of them were perfectly functional in their work lives, and were generally talented and intelligent people. Almost all of them, however, tended to let their social lives revolve around getting high. Everyone's experiences differ, but I've lost several friends this way, and now avoid the stuff as a result.
Anti-"anti-protest" Protest (Score:3, Insightful)
Let us consider the following facts:
- Linux user cannot be characterized, by and large, as music or software pirates -- there is no precedent to label them as such any more than Microsoft Windows users
- Not paying for Linux is not a piracy issue, Linux is, by it intent and modus operandi free of licensed and proprietary code
- Presuming that IBM has placed illegitimate, license bearing code into the Linux source tree this does not necessarily reflect poorly on Linus Torvalds, Linux kernel developers, Linux users or the OpenSource community
- Linux usage != stupidity. (I can only assume that this was meant to be farsical. In the realm of debate the tactic of argumentum ad hominim, "argument against the man," (In this case: "You're stupid!") is generally abandoned in grade school.
- "Ya Vol!"[sic] (Intended, correct me if I'm wrong, to be "Jawoll!" a characterization of Nazi adherence to orders popularized by "Hogan's Heroes" [imdb.com].) is a crude characiture of nazism not communism. But hey! To the culturally illiterate, what's the difference? Besides, IBM is an oligarchy.
- And... Well I could go on but that would be a full scale rant.
I'm reasonably certain that these posters (A) do not characterize all of the "anti-protesters" and (B) do not characterize most SCO workers. It does reflect poorly on SCO managment who allowed their employees to present the above image at the SCO Lindon facility. In all fairness I have no idea what the "anti-SCO" protesters were carrying. It may have been equivalently malevolent drivel.Re:Yup, Provo LUG were sucked in good and hard (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and no. The problem is that SCO's case rests on the details of contracts that many of these companies signed in order to license the original code. You're entirely correct that SCO has done fuckall to develop these technologies they're claiming rights over, but if the contracts are as restrictive enough to give SCO that kind of power, they may have a case. That's a pretty pathetic justification for claiming theft of your IP, and it certainly doesn't leave the Linux community at fault, but this is irrelevant to contract law. SCO doesn't need rights to the code itself (although it does appear to be claiming those as well - I'm still confused), as long as the contracts stipulate that the licensor can control the distribution of associated technologies. (Which is itself doubtful, but we'll see.)
Re: Original LWN discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
> I know it's the in thing now to bag on "those French cowards" but...
Also "in" to ignore the fact that French troops are the only Western soldiers trying to stop the horror in the Congo right now.
Three million people have died in the Congo over the past four years, but the members of the "Coalition of the Willing" who were so eager to 'rescue' the people of Iraq are falling all over themselves to see who can ignore what's happening in Africa the best.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:3, Insightful)
Just ignore the little things, like our economy which shrub has put in the dumpster, or the 19-year old kids dying in the desert (more than one a day since shrub declared we "won" the war), or the lying about the quality of the intelligence of the threat of weapons of mass distruction this while mess was based on. Please leave the voting to folks who actually CARE about our country.
IBM have the rights to derivations they make (Score:5, Insightful)
TSG (as distinct from the original SCO, now called (IIRC) Tarantella) seems to be claiming just about everything, probably working on the idea that the worst outcome is the judge saying no. The common-language term for this is "trying it on".
As I read the contract docs, IBM unquestionably retains the rights to any derivatives they wrote, the only thing they can't distribute is the original source. In their last Exhibit, TSG are implicitly including those derivatives in "SOFTWARE PROGRAMS", trying to eliminate a distinction carefully drawn in the original contract.
Quick Question? (Score:2, Insightful)
Prolly not.
Please, its just a question. dont mod me a troll, or flamebait.
I am not amused. (Score:1, Insightful)
People act like idiots -- and in the end the motivation *is* money. TheyÂre not doing it for the sake of comedy. Nor are they trying to preserve national values.
TheyÂre in _just_ for the money. No matter what they say, theyÂll voice an opposite opinion in 3 seconds, if that can make them more money.
And they can brainwash less brilliant dudes, who wonÂt even make any money, to tease us by calling us names, like "troll" or "zealot".
And this, incredibly, they do because we dared to think different from the mainstream Windows OS -- and our "different thinking" is really different, it's not ApplesÂs OS X official alternative.
ItÂs almost as if they wanted to portrait the very people who can code -- and can make things happen -- as idiots and lazy.
They say:
"You can use a sophisticated world-class developed OS like Linux? What? You actually develop it? Bang! You're just a zealot!"
I am not. I'm just a regular guy, wife and daughter, regular job, regular life, etc. I have to explain to guys who say "Why use Linux? Why donÂt you just copy Windows? Nobody will ever know!"
I will. So I don't pirate, nor do any of other Linux-only users like me, I imagine.
What use would this labeling have, but to outlaw those who donate their work?
Would they also move such a campaign against us if we decided to donate food?
No, it's not funny anymore. ItÂs sick. The more I learn about them, the less I get concerned about the flaws in their product.
The real problem is their gangster methods.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a lot to be said about people dying, in this case being wrong (about WMD) is still right in the end (getting rid of abusive dictators).
So whether the intentions are honorable or not, in my mind this is one thing that ended up good no matter what.
On that end i would point to WJC's record on going into countries and getting US soldiers killed.
Let us not forget that the product of peace comes at the price of war and that the nature of humanity has changed little since the beginning of recorded history.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether they have a valid basis for a lawsuit or not, I expect companies to act like grown-ups. I've seen to many articles recently where executives, management, and lawyers result to threats, and childish statements.
What ever happened to professionalism?
You sir, are very wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
This is something that's been puzzling me a fair bit, actually: there were couple of mid-sized countries that stood up to the only actual superpower, saying it would be wrong to attack Iraq (based on just inconclusive evidence and lots of strong words). And that's cowardice? Knowing US military, political and economic might, that seems fairly brave move on France's (and Germany's) part to me. Note that I'm not commenting on right/wrongness of those actions, just the impression on courageousness (or lack of).
It's bit like people calling 9/11 terrorists cowards; I mean, they were scumsucking evildoing asswipes and all, but still; doing a kamikaze attack like that isn't your every day coward would really do. I guess it's just using word "coward" as a general derogatory term, and/or applying different criteria for different people (as in "if they weren't such cowards they'd had attacked US army forces directly").
As to France specifically; I know, I know, it is/was just "sore loser's syndrome"; the problem wasn't who's brave who's not, but who is with us or against us. But still... it is scary how sometimes politics get close to Orwell's new world, where war is peace, lies are truth, and bravery is cowardice.
Re:This could have been solved much easier (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless the democrats nominate someone who lied to our nation and the world to sell a war that killed thousands of foreign nationals for the benefit of a few American companies (I'm looking at you Halliburton), then who the "lesser of two evils" is should be pretty obvious.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's not forget the hundreds of iraqis now being killed by US soldiers. Let's not forget the thousands of people who are still without water, electricity or food. Let's not forget that the soldiers were supposed to leave as soon as possible.
Then again, maybe you don't get those reports on the news in your area.
Re:IBM have the rights to derivations they make (Score:3, Insightful)
A = SysV
B = RCU, NUMA, JFS
C = AIX
IBM licenses A, independently develops B, combines A + B to produce C.
C is a derivative of A,
C is also a derivative of B.
B is not a derivative of A. Although TSG (The SCO Group) wants B to be a derivative of A. They are trying to reinterpret their contracts to imply that B is a derivative of A.
IBM has the right to do what it wants with B (including contributing it to Linux). If SCO got B through Project Monterey into Unixware, then of course there is going to be common code between Unixware and Linux.
I doubt verymuch if McBride, Sontag, or any of their attornies know enough about code to know what a derivative is. By their argument, all software written for Windows is a derivative of Windows(TM), and if you have a Windows(TM) License that prohibits distribution of derivatives (all Windows users) you can legally open-source your code!
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:2, Insightful)
(I'm a french pothead that doesn't drink nor smoke)
I think that you're making a point very VERY important here:
US citizen (as it seems from france) are NOT educated.
I'll make my point
In paris youy are allowed to drink alcool on the street, but are not allowd to
(it's the right opposit in NewYork, or so I've been told)
So in NewYork, you can be completly drunk on the streets, with all the danger that could outcome from such a situation, but there are many restrictions as to where and how yo drink.
on the opposit, in Paris, the legal system take the citiezen as "educated" enough to drink and stop
now, wich one of these two "currents of law" is enlighten?
is it the one that actualy allows the citizen to endanger himself and others, and prohibits him from doing something as harmless as drinking,
or is it the one that lets you drink until your become a danger to yourself or others?
now in the us, you can go to prison for life for selling pot, but can be on the street again after having killed/raped?
those americans that control the country since 2nd world war, are inteligent people, yea right, but their are not into altruism, whereas such control should be held by altruism.
(mind me, with chirac, look who's talking)
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
This *is the* reason the world disagreed w/ the US.
Good leaders make decisions based on PRINCIPLE(!); and the "We are going to invade Iraq because we lie about trumped-up charges" is *not a reason*.
The rest of the planet didnt want to *start a war* -- you know, launch an army to INVADE another country... there is NO reason to do it. Ever.
Because USofAmerica believes it can do what it likes, on the basis of serving its percieved-best-interest is what irks the planet. We have to apply international law, freedoms, rights and responsibilities equally. Not "might-makes-right" pursuit of national interests.
Bottom line: i applaud the French for standing up refusing to legitimize the illegal invasion, slaughter, and occupation of *any* nation... its was in the USA's interest to do it to Iraq -- who else? when? The USA is a rogue nation, out of control... lead by unprincipled tyrants.
Re:Original LWN discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
Lets not forget the thousands of Iraqis who were tortured on a daily basis and the thousands more abused under the Iraqi government.
Yes, I'm glad that stopped.
But that has not been a consistent good reason for invading another country.
If it were, why isn't the United States invading other countries with appalling records of human rights abuse?
PRC, North Korea, Myanmar, Zimbabwe, Congo, just about every other country in the Middle East, etc.
It's becoming clear that GWB made a mistake. If the evidence for WMD was just so compelling, then it certainly ought to have turned up by now, as American forces have free reign to look anywhere in Iraq. Many American choose to believe his warnings about WMD in Iraq. The evidence he presented months ago was not compelling, but one could always argue that he was supplied with greater evidence that he could not reveal due to concerns of national security and preserving an intelligence-gathering capability. That is, we had to trust him that he really dug deep into the evidence and knew categorically that WMD in Iraq were a problem. [The supposed tie between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein was as weak as they get. If removing bin Laden's support network were the real object, the USA would have invaded Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and not Iraq.]
I support American troops, who are dedicated men and women, and have sworn an oath to obey their commander in chief. They're great people we can ill afford to lose and they're putting their lives on the line.
Theremore, the commander in chief has an incredibly important responsibility to exercise, and he has not done it properly.
I don't believe GWB is malicious or evil, just not capable of acting as President of the United States with the dedication and thoroughness the office deserves. He's made a mistake in gullibility, believing Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, and accepting their appointments inthe first place, not willing to do the homework it takes to know what is really going on. Before you commit someone else's life to a military objective, you owe it to them to be as smart as you can, as hardworking as you can, willing question your advisors, get alternative opinions, etc.
The United States Armed Forces, the people of the United States, and the world at large, all deserve the best possible person in that position. Sadly, the best person is not there now.