Win4Lin 5.0 Reviewed 419
uninet writes "About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an early release copy of Win4Lin 5.0, the follow-up to the already impressive Win4Lin 4.0 released in May 2002. Win4Lin, for those not familiar with it, offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux."
How does it compare to vmware? (Score:2, Informative)
More info in the release notes... (Score:5, Informative)
It looks like one of the most important new features is Winsock 2 support.
Check out transgaming - was "No 3D?" (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand, the age old question is that if Windows emulation works SO well on Linux, then will there ever be a commercial market for native Linux apps? I'd rather see native ports of these various apps/games, and I hope emulation is simply a stopgap...
Re:No 3D? (Score:5, Informative)
Direct access to the hardware via highly optimized video drivers and specific graphics libraries are very hard to virtualize with a level of performance that matches the "native" Windows running directly on the hardware.
First we have the simple fact that by running via the Win4Lnx you have an additional layer that does messages parsing and translation (from various Windows API including DirectX graphics API) to a native Xfree86/Linux function call, which has to then go through a network aware display system, and gets painted on your display using a video card driver not written in-house by the card manufactor, but a 3rd-party free software developer, who likely had less than full, to possibly no vendor documentation about the card and how to make full and optimized use of its capabilities.
So I doubt you will ever see a solution that provides full performance supporting the at the time current gaming graphics capabilities supported via a virtualizer (creates an additional virtual machine using special CPU instructions rather than emulator that emulates everything in software) because they are always playing catch up, and they add unavoidable additional layers of translation that negatively impact on execution speed compared to native running OS.
Re:How does it compare to vmware? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Speed? (Score:5, Informative)
Seems like having actual memory management code and a file system was sufficient to speed up a P133 from 'unacceptably slow" to "pretty quick".
--dave
Re:Other way around (Score:3, Informative)
Virtual PC [connectix.com]
Re:How does it compare to vmware? (Score:5, Informative)
It performs well. I used it to have access to GUI tools on my Linux box then so that I could administer a DB on the Linux box through Samba (same PC w/GUI interface then on Windows). Windows acted like a different host on the machine and it worked flawlessly for me but, as always, YMMV.
It's a lot faster than VMWare, but only supports 98 and ME, whereas VMWare supports all of that and 2000, XP Professional.
For those who want that sort of thing, it can also fool your users into thinking they are running Windows through their terminal server sort of applications. No games - No 3D - No DistractiveX though. If you want that, you should dual-boot or better yet - buy Linux games and stop buying Win based stuff.
Of course, games are what Windows was made for anyway - it doesn't really have the security needed to be taken as a serious business platform by anyone who really has to support their stuff. They would much rather have something stable and reliable that doesn't fall over quite so easily.
Just an honest opinion and my two centavos.
Re:weird (Score:1, Informative)
There are actually a number of alternatives for linux- and linux-like systems on windows. VMWare will allow a virtual linux box on top of WinNT (and vice-versa). Cygwin is a port of most of the GNU suite and X to WinNT.
A "linux emulator" for windows is kinda meaningless - linux is mainly posix-compliant, what you really want is a posix layer for windows. Guess what? It exists.
Re:Other way around (Score:5, Informative)
Re:More info in the release notes... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The answer is SCO (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technolo
Seeing MS is licensing SCOde, XP shouldn't be a problem - for now.
Re:The question is (Score:5, Informative)
Rumor has it that netraverse is working hard on a Win2k version of Win4lin. Hopefully they will be able to produce a solution that is not as bloated as VMWare.
Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:requires a kernel patch (Score:3, Informative)
It comes with prepatched kernels for RH, SuSE, etc.. That was always one of my biggest gripes with W4L too; use a damned kernel module like VMWare. At the time I couldn't get the kernel patch to work with my (already patched) kernel.
Re:Any comparisons?? (Score:4, Informative)
Pros:
VERY fast. About 95% of the speed of a real Windows installation. In some cases faster, such as startup/shutdown, both of which are near-instant.
VERY easy to install. Run the graphical installer, it downloads the neccesary kernel patch (needed to make Windows think its running on top of DOS instead of Linux), installs everything. Reboot, and you're done.
VERY compatible. I've yet to find a program that runs on a normal WinME box that won't run on Win4Lin WinME.
Good networking support. You can have your Win4Lin install connect to your LAN (via a virtual NIC).
Cons:
Programs seemed to crash more often in Win4Lin than in actual Windows. This may be fixed in 5.0.
Windows doesn't get to use a lot of your hardware. Mouse, keyboard, CD-ROM, sound (thru your linux drivers), printers (thru your linux drivers) and serial ports are accessible. Almost anything else (scanners, other USB toys, etc) are not. May be improved in 5.0.
Clipboard isn't consistent between Linux and Windows. May be fixed in 5.0.
No 3D, and only limited DirectDraw. Not much can be done about this.
Yeah, so it's not perfect, but it definitely beat the hell out of VMware or any other similar programs.
Re:requires a kernel patch (Score:3, Informative)
specific dates that Windows versions are obsolete (Score:3, Informative)
95 is already considered obsolete
98 receives no free support after the end of this month, none at all after the end of this year (basically)
ME is unsupported at the end of the year as well
Re:weird (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, but that means you have to dual boot... I stopped doing that a decade ago. It was a PITA, and you lose state -- if I'm working on something in one window, and need to work on something else, I shouldn't need to reboot. I often leave 3-4 windows up with development stuff (code, running programs, log files, etc) while going off to do other stuff. If I have to reboot in order to do "other stuff" then I have to quit out of any files I'm editing, close all my windows, and reboot... odds are I won't remember precisely where I was in the coding cycle when I come back to it unless those windows are still present.
It would be even worse if the documentation for the project (largely in Word docs, some in a wiki) meant I had to reboot everytime I wanted to view the latest copy.
Dual booting is a kludge IMO.
On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?
Nice troll.
It's because the Linux/Unix/POSIX APIs are clearly documented and well known (which is not true for the Windows libraries). In fact, Windows uses most of the very same system calls. Many Linux programs are portable and can be compiled not only on other Unix systems, but also on Windows. Cygwin [cygwin.com] is a port of the basic Unix libraries and a boatload of Unix utilities, along with an X/Windows Server, to Windows... there are also cross-compilable graphics toolkits like Qt [troll.no] that help in porting graphical apps.
The better bit is particularly funny... the best Oracle client I've used is TOra [globecom.se], which was originally developed for Linux and cross-compiled to Windows. The best MP3 tagger I've found is EasyTag, only available on Unix systems. Most of the better programming tools are Unix oriented, with backports to Windows (if ported at all).
Wrong, wrong, wrong! (Score:5, Informative)
WIN4LIN DOES NOT USE SCO TECHNOLOGY! (Score:5, Informative)
NOT TRUE (Score:5, Informative)
Win4Lin is not built on technology licensed from SCO. SCO licenses technology from NeTraverse as an OEM and packages the technology on their UNIX platforms under our name "Merge". We do not license anything from SCO (nor do we need to). From time to time we have used wording on our web site and in our literature that is accurate but perhaps on a quick read might be misconstrued. The comment "Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm)" is meant to convey that our technology has been in use on SCO variants of UNIX for some time - not that it is based on SCO technology. SCO Merge (or Sun Merge, or whatever Merge) is our product.
Rather than try and clarify the language on our web site, we will be taking it off
I hope this clears up the misinformation.
Jim Curtin
CEO NeTraverse
No it can't (Score:3, Informative)
I love VMware by the way. It's one truely useful tool.
Kernel Modifications (Score:3, Informative)
The Kernel modifications necessary to run it are too much to keep up with. Everytime you upgrade you have to either wait on them to build a kernel or patch the kernel yourself. And they do not come out with new patches quickly. And they only seem to support the kernel that ships with your linux distribution.
It's a shame that they seem either not able to or refuse to incorporate their patch in the kernel. If they did then this would be a very cool package. As is, it works fine, just locks you into the shipping kernel or a home patched kernel to use it everytime you upgrade.
Re:The question is (Score:2, Informative)
Re:./ snobbery (Score:2, Informative)
I forgot to mention that in one of my previous posts. I LOVE this feature. Since it resides totally inside of the linux filesystem, I can completely backup my "windows" install during my regular linux tape backup. And if i hose the registry? Just restore that directory, from Linux. No longer the chicken-egg problems I had to trying to back up a real Windows partition to tape and actually be able to restore from tape without the damn registry still being corrupted or some other nonsense. Maybe I didn't try hard enough, but i could never get just a file-based restore to ever get a Windows partition fully working again. Win4Lin let's you backup your entire Windows system purely at the file level (and with full Unix permissions too!).
Re:The question is (Score:2, Informative)
No, you can't. I personally use Win98 under Win4Lin.
Say what you will but the only reason I ever used XP was because it came preloaded on my laptop. When I upgraded my laptop to Linux and purchased Win4Lin, I went with Win98 because it's what I had been using until I was forced to XP by it being preinstalled on the laptop. The following apps all run faster under Win4Lin/Win98 than they did on the same exact laptop running XP: Microsoft Office (Word specifically), Adobe, QuickBooks, DevStudio (VB and VC++ specifically). Basically, I got Win4Lin to support legacy Windows apps and I ended up getting better performance!
I don't miss anything from XP. I never had any problems with Win98 when I was running it native nor under Win4Lin. Of course, I never play graphic intensive games nor did I play them when I had a Windows box. I suppose if that's really what you use Windows for then you'd have to factor that into your decision. But for any business and most non-game users that want to move to Linux but have some Windows legacy apps, Win4Lin works great.
Now if they could just solve my "reset problem" that started two days ago.
Re:The question is (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Check out transgaming - was "No 3D?" (Score:2, Informative)
I think you may be slightly confused as to what trolling or astroturfing is.
Most people I know that have a dislike for transgaming do so for various legitimate reasons.
Transgaming directly competes with the few companies left that do native ports.
They provide forums for games like, Unreal tournamnet, Return to castle wolfenstien Majesty, and many many others which have native ports.
This has to hurt the efforts of companies like Linux Game Publishing [linuxgamepublishing.com] and guys like icculus [icculus.org]
And You have to wonder if companies like Epic, Id, and Bioware will continue to spend money on porting games themselves if people can play their games at 80 or 90 percent speed with winex.
BTW, if you want to support native ports for linux, here's a list [icculus.org] of 282 free or commercial games out there that don't require winex.