LinuxTag To SCO: Detail Code Theft Or Retract Claims 531
RoLi writes "Heise has a story (The babelfish translation sounds like a speech from Yoda, but the important facts are translated correctly.) about LinuxTag taking legal action against SCO. SCO will either have to retract their claims, disclose their "proof" (if it exists) or be fined. That's certainly good news."
Update: 05/26 17:25 GMT by T : Reader Fizz points to the more understandable LinuxTag press release (in English and German), and adds: "The notice, dated Friday, May 23, maintains that SCO Group is sowing uncertainty among the community of GNU/Linux users, developers and suppliers."
Isn't that the normal way? (Score:2, Insightful)
Day 965 of the SCO vs Linux crap (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, so LinuxTag is what kind of organization? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:English translation of translated English (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically, the worst that could happen is that the German court might enjoinder SCO not to make public statements in Germany about their US case until it's been decided.
How will this affect the US case? (Score:5, Insightful)
If they produce documents in the German suit, will they be available in the US suit against IBM? Or can they stick to their original timetable for releasing docs here in the states?
It's amazing -- I didn't think it would be possible to dislike SCO any more than I did after I had to work on their OS a few years ago, but here we are. They pulled it off.
Re:Isn't that the normal way? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more than that. In Germany, intimidating your competitors with unfounded threats to harm their business can amount to unfair competition and again in Germany there's a law against that. The threatener can himself become liable. IMO it's the kind of law we could use in other countries too
Re:Isn't that the normal way? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:fine? (Score:4, Insightful)
IBM counter suit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about these comments (Score:3, Insightful)
This page seems to contain a number of direct quotes. If Stallman and Perens indeed said those things (in a public forum) then there is no way to keep SCO from repeating them. Libel doesn't even begin to think about entering the picture unless the quotes are false.
Only connect (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A lot better than all the speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Every day... I keep wondering, why do we have to even *think* about SCO until they come forward? The age old saying, "don't feed the trolls", comes to mind...
But for a bit more informativeness, I don't hear about the few software releases that have strong Caldera/SCO bonds, even as a new release, or a revived tool from way back then: OpenSLP [openslp.org], CSCOPE [sf.net] (gee, cSCOpe [advogato.org], advogators will kill me) and something similar (not trivial) which eludes my mind just now...
Re:English translation of translated English (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that is an incredibly oxymoronic statement. If the public disclosure of evidence threatens the merits of a civil lawsuit, the grounds of that lawsuit should be questioned...publicly.
Yet another infinite while() loop in the legal code?
--K.
Worker Bees (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is how to utterly stop anything like the SCO legal action in the future.
Each individual in the open source movement needs to file a small claims law suit not only against SCO but against the individual lawyers working for SCO. These people have defamed us, and they need to learn that they do well to leave all of us alone.
It is impossible to fight thousands of law suits filed in hundreds of different courts. The expense is huge, and failure of the other side to respond results in a summery judgment against them.
While each suit might be small - a few thousand dollars - the end result is a disaster for someone like SCO and their lawyers.
Re:Day 965 of the SCO vs Linux crap (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Worker Bees (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:English translation of translated English (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about these comments (Score:5, Insightful)
"Linux is a copy of UNIX. There is very little new stuff in Linux."
Linux kernel forum
I'd like to see a date put on this. Anyway, Stallman's position has, for a long time, been that the Linux kernel is only a stopgap measure until the HURD reaches the appropriate state of perfection (although he seems to have relaxed that stance a little lately).
"I consider the law prohibiting the sharing of copies with your friend the moral equivalent of Jim Crow. It does not deserve respect."
Richard Stallman, Free as in Freedom, Richard Stallman's Crusade for Free Software: O'Reilly (2002) at p. 72
And what, exactly, are SCO trying to imply with this? In case they didn't notice, he said "friend", not "multi-billion-dollar corporation". I fail to see how it has any bearing on their case against IBM.
"The whole GNU project is really one big hack. It's one big act of subversive playful cleverness..."
Richard Stallman, Revolution OS (DVD)
Now, this one's just plain old misrepresentation (intentional or not). RMS's use of the word "hack" here corresponds to the second sentence - i.e., a clever piece of work. It would seem that SCO thought he meant it to imply a giant tangle of spaghetti code.
Bruce Perens
"This is becoming a tradition. I go there and break the law every year in the name of free speech."
Bruce Perens, explaining his plan to demonstrate how to modify DVD technology to attendees of an Open Source convention.
Again, I fail to see how DVD copy protection has any bearing whatsoever on SCO's case against IBM.
"We have to remember that Linux is a follow-on to UNIX. It's not just a UNIX clone. It's actually a UNIX successor."
Bruce Perens, mpulse magazine, December 2001.
This is a bit of a strange quote to put up - perhaps they're trying to imply that Bruce was saying that Linux builds on UNIX, but I suspect what they really wanted emphasize was the "... a UNIX clone" line; i.e., while it might currently be more than a clone of UNIX, it is at the core just a UNIX copy, perhaps in more ways than one.
Summary: Yet more FUD. Thanks, SCO, now please disappear off the face of the Earth.
Re:Indeed (Score:2, Insightful)
Hmm. So taking something that isn't yours, doesn't belong to you, belongs to someone else and the rightful owner didn't want you to have it isn't theft?
Re:IBM counter suit (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A lot better than all the speculation... (Score:3, Insightful)
>>*think* about SCO until they come forward?
Because they are effectively customers of open source solutions saying that they could be legally responsible. All the bewan counters will ask, is could this have been avoided using MS?
Re:What about these comments (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the SCO quotes page makes SCO look bad rather than Linux. It is the sheer desperation of the tactic. The quotes are clearly taken out of context.
Attacking minor figures inevitably makes you look small. Whether justified or not, Bush made a major error calling for a boycott of the Dixie Chicks, it made him look like a small minded bully. He should have laughed it off. A President with real class would have called them up and talked to them in person.
I think the problem here is that SCO has burned its boats on this one. They have no future in the Open Source world and probably little future in the Unix world either. It seems pretty certain that there will be only Linux and OS-X left as viable O/S in the UNIX world in ten years time. Every other UNIX will be a legacy platform on minimal life support. Eventually they will become Linux subsystems the way VMS is becomming a Windows NT subsystem.
The problem SCO has with its litigation strategy is that the Linux world is global. Most EU countries have pretty severe penalties for false allegations of copyright infringement. It is pretty easy to put a party on notice to substantiate its claim or shut up. It is not that hard to do in the US either. It takes a minimum of two years to get a civil case to trial, but there are evidentiary hearings before then and the courts do everything they can to get matters disposed of without a trial. So while it will be two years before the case gets to trial, SCO is going to have to be specific about its claims very soon, it may even be a condition of getting to discovery.
Fighting on two battlefields with different rules (Score:4, Insightful)
The other battle is fought in Germany, and here the rules (read the law) are different. The German court could really put a lot of pressure on SCO to open the questionable code ASAP, and this could have a huge influence on the case with IBM (or even make it totally irelevant), because it may show really soon if the "stolen" code exists or not.
Re:Indeed (Score:3, Insightful)
,i>Hmm. So taking something that isn't yours, doesn't belong to you, belongs to someone else and the rightful owner didn't want you to have it isn't theft?
The operative word here is thing, as in tangible and physical. If you appropriate a salad fork from me, I no longer have it. If, on the other hand, you copy my blueprints for salad forks, I still have them. Of course, you may have damaged my ability to compete in the cutthroat salad fork industry, but that's a separate issue. Knowledge about salad fork manufacture is not the same as a physical object.
Re:What about these comments (Score:3, Insightful)
He didn't - it was some random radio host(s). Would have been pretty pathetic if he did, but any number of left-wingers say far worse things about him every day and the administration never bats an eyelash. They have armies of sycophants to do that for them.
Liberal cries of McCarthyism have sounded pretty dumb for this reason. What *is* scary is when Ashcroft accuses critics of the DOJ's incompetence of aiding terrorists, or when the GOP Congressional leadership accused Daschle of treason. This administration has never dealt very well with honest criticism, even if it ignores halfwit entertainers.
Re:English translation of translated English (Score:1, Insightful)
Spreading rumor of that kind may be a violation of German competition law. Afaik you may not say: I will sue you if you don't do that.
Another issue: afaik it is not about patented code but about copyright violation.
Why is it anti-competetive?
Well, imagine someone saying to you on the street: I might kill you, here's my gun. Please give me your money.
I remind you: He said "please"
analog SCO acts anti-competetive.
Re:Don't you have to have standing to bring a case (Score:3, Insightful)
Not quite. (Re:Insanity?) (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux Tag *is* damaged if Linux loses reputation.
2nd:
This kind of thing SCO appears to be doing (falls claims and statements) actually *is* 'wettbewerbswidrig' (roughly translates to 'comerce opstructive') and thus plain and simply illegal in germany. And Linux Tag need not even be directly affected by it to have a reason, if not to say the lawfull duty of filing a notice to german officials that SCO is acting 'comerce obstructive'.
A 'Einstweilige Verfügung' ('temporal decree') could actually force SCO Germany to publish proofs for the supposed violation or officially back down from their claims/statements and even publish a suing partys 'Gegendarstellung' ('counter statement') in the media releases SCO Germany controlls (Websites, corporate flyers & publications, etc.).
With the Linux Tag being a rock-solid institution in the country with the highest amount of linux-users per capita (even high-ranked politicians and officials attend the linux tag) this is not just far from insane, it's also quite conclusive and weighs pretty hard in favor of the OSS community.
Aside from that, if you ask me, I see a major ass-chewing for SCO at the horizon. Not just in germany. I was bound to become one of their customers, but 650 $ for their United Linux distro and now this shurely asks for serious trouble from *everybody* in the *nix world.
OT: Bugzilla and slashdot (Score:3, Insightful)
Referrals directly from
Well, for an obvious reason. A bunch of slashdot reader clicking on Bugzilla URLs brings Bugzilla to it's knees. Remember: 1) It's database driven. 2) it's a development tool, and having it unusable during a slashdot storm really doesn't help the programmers much.
SCO will show their 'evidence' when... (Score:3, Insightful)
Something that FAR too many people here are forgetting, is that SCO has sued IBM. When they get to court, SCO will be legally required to provide any evidence or proof of wrongdoing on IBM's part. Until then, and release of evidence could destroy their case.
IT DOESN'T MATTER at this point if they're telling the truth or full of shit. They CANNOT reasonably reveal their evidence outside a courtroom. Now let's all just quit ranting about how full of shit they are, and wait for the case to come to court. I expect them to end up bankrupt with egg on their face, but I'm at least willing to let them try to defend their claims properly.
Re:English translation of translated English (Score:4, Insightful)
are [webtechniques.com] you [chillingeffects.org] sure [wwwaif.net] about [sourceforge.net] that? [rtmark.com]
Re:Does this mean BSD is still Dead? (Score:3, Insightful)
I grew up in a christian community, was raised a christian, and still am. I know christians from virtually every denomination. Here's the typical Fourth of July of my mainstream christian youth: eating devilled ham sandwiches made from Underwood Devilled Ham with devil logo, accompanied by devilled eggs, lighting off Red Devil Fireworks with a devil logo, and finishing off the evening with a thick slice of devilsfood chocolate cake.
I know some christians who won't let their kids participate in halloween, others who won't let their kids go to the theatres, and still others who don't believe in dancing. But I've never once run across one who thought that a cartoon representation of a red guy with horns and tail was satanic.
Fear over cartoon logos does not arise out of religion, but from family trees that don't fork and subscriptions to the National Enquirer.
Re:A lot better than all the speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, both sides are potentially wrong. SCO, MS, the rise in SCO's stock, and the press are all using this to indict OSS in general, as if everything in the kernel is lifted. The failure of the MS-Apple lookalike lawsuit is a precedent showing copying look and feel is A-OK. And the "SCO is Evil" crowd is naively believing it's impossible that the Linux Itanium code submitted by IBM is 100% free of code "inspired by" IBM's AIX team -- that is easily discountable by seeing the code, but it is certainly possible!
Re:A lot better than all the speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm... you mean the same Gartner that says companies should drop IIS immediately [eweek.com]?
C'mon, just because you disagree with one particular position of an entity doesn't mean they are allied with MS. Hell, the IIS anti-recommandation is a big reason we are able to force some of our third-party vendors to use Apache (and ammunition against any internal departments that try to force IIS-only solutions).
Garg
Unfortunately. (Score:4, Insightful)
If they sent me one of their cease and desist letters I would tell them to either substantiate the infringement in detail (no bullshit NDA either.. I didn't sign anything to use Linux now did I?) or go straight to hell and shut the fuck up.
Re:Indeed (Score:5, Insightful)
These days patents are pretty much a rubber stamp. If I decide that I want to patent some sort algorithm they taught in CS101 and manage to get it rubber stampped by the PTO, I can then use it to extort money from companies that don't want to take the risk of litigation. Even large companies will often settle rather than take the risk that some uniformed judge or jury will decide against them, especially if the settlement cost is less than that of retaining a lawyer. Extortion using the legal system is still extortion, and claiming that people who use the system like this are being robbed of something is wrong-headed, dishonorable and argumentative.
NDA protected IP is a bit of a different beast. It doesn't give you quite the same legal extortion capabilities that the patent system does. Someone can think up the idea on their own and implement it without worrying about your IP... Normally. Because normally you have a small developer base and it's easy to remember who's seen NDA protected IP versus who's inputting into your code base. Given the clever developers working in the Linux kernel and the rapid development process (I've never seen a commercial product that evolved as quickly as the Linux kernel does) It's equally as likely that someone in the kernel developers group came up with a perfectly logical implementation of something that SCO has NDA protected as it is that someone in IBM violated an NDA to add something. There's a lot of stuff in programming that follows similar lines. Claiming that a common pattern is theft is as reprehensible as extorting money from a company with a trivial patent.
Quite frankly, as a programmer I don't really have the time to be looking over my shoulder every time I think up something new and somewhat clever. Given the quality of patents granted based in the stories in this forum over the years, I'd be more inclined to say that patents themselves are theft. Perhaps once they weren't but since they've been approprated by corporate America, their original purpose has been perverted beyond recognition. I would suggest that the easiest method of solving this problem is to prevent a corporation from owning any patent or copyright nor contractual obligations applying to them.
Re:What about these comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Worker Bees (Score:2, Insightful)
Your standing in this case?
I run an open source project on Sourceforge, Sir, currently there are 15 active participants.
(Sigh) Does any part of your project directly use anything that might be considered SCO's intellectual property?
Well, the project runs under Li..
A moment, please. Does your project in any way overlap or compete with any of SCO's Unix-family operating systems products?
Er...
(Sigh) Another open-source weenie. Fined a thousand dollars for frivolous litigation, and believe me, son, I'm being lenient. Next!
Re:Worker Bees (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop flogging it.
Flog the blighters that own it.
Flog their partners and associates.
But SCO? It's nailed to the perch and been so for ages now. It's part of hell's choir eternal. It would push up Daisies but the little flowers keep falling back withered and blighted.
Track the money trail back and lash out at those who hold the purse strings.
Top Excuses (Score:1, Insightful)
Now _that's_ McCarthyism. How would you answer the question, "Are you or have ever been a member of the Santa Cruz operation?"
=> I am not, and never have been, a member of the Santa Cruz operation.
=> I was young, and this girl was interested in SCO. So I went. It was just a bunch of people doing work. But I didn't really help.
=> I was young, and I wanted to experiment. I tried working at SCO, but I found out that they were just as hypocritical as IBM and HP and Microsoft. I've worked on open source a lot since I left them.
=> It was only an internship. I was a go-fer.
=> It was only an internship. I was a code monkey.
=> I applied for a job, but they rejected because they doubted my moral direction.
=> I was blacklisted as a member of the Communist Party, you insensitive clod!
Re:A lot better than all the speculation... (Score:3, Insightful)
It may be true that IBM put some code into Linux in violation of agreements they had with SCO. SCO may have valid claims to the copyright on certain portions of the kernel. But the important thing to remember is that they are (or were) also Linux distributors and benefited from the free use and privelledge of distributing code owned and written by other developers and licensed to SCO under the terms of the GPL. By making additional IP claims against that code, SCO is in clear violation of the GPL. If there really is any improper code in Linux, SCO gave up their right to contest its presence by continuing to distribute Linux for months after they learned that it was there. They may have been wronged by IBM, and maybe some other developers, but they are now violating the copyrights and goodwill of honest developers and harming the Free software community with their careless publicity stunts. The people who have contributed to Linux have every right to be angry with SCO. The demands being made by LinuxTag are completely reasonable -- either tell the world what is in the kernel that shouldn't be there so it can be fixed, or stop making illegal IP claims.
Re:Ok, so LinuxTag is what kind of organization? (Score:3, Insightful)
They organize a yearly Linux exhibition, called "LinuxTag" (which means "Linux day"), which according to them is Europe's biggest Linux exhibition. They're not direct competitors to SCO, however if SCO causes less people to visit the trade show or causes exhibitors to shy away from actually displaying Linux products, that will harm LinuxTag e.V., so that's why they can take legal action.
Actually, if they do this, they are direct competitors to SCO, because they are distributing Linux. Likewise since SCO threatened Linux distributors and users (in that order) with possible future legal action, they threatened LinuxTag.
For that matter, they threatened me. Everyone who has ever given away a Linux CD is by definition a distributor of Linux. Those rights to distribution are granted by the GPL, so if code was improperly GPL'ed, everyone is implicated.
Of course the reality is even if code is really foudn that is SCO's code, Linus or someone will whip up a patch and toss it out for all to consume, and by doing so we will be free.
The only situation in which something else would happen is one in which SCO says the very act of doing something violates their IP (like what happened with DeCSS, where it is illegal to write libre software to read a DVD, period).