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Red Hat Software Businesses Linux Business

Red Hat Announces Enterprise Linux 440

Posted by michael
from the aka-expensive-linux dept.
OldBen writes "RedHat has announced the product stable to replace the mainstream releases for enterprise use. RedHat Enterprise Linux AS replaces Advanced Server (with quite a price hike to go along), ES is targeted at "entry-level" servers, and WS is for workstations. See the details at RedHat's website."
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Red Hat Announces Enterprise Linux

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  • Re:Why the cost? (Score:2, Informative)

    by ShwAsasin (120187) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:18PM (#5505375) Journal
    A company who purchases these expensive versions of Red Hat are getting support. When you download a distro off the net you don't get good support from the company. In a corporate world you can't dick around with things if a critical server is not running. It's better to have the support in the event something happens, then not have it at all...
  • What price hike ?? (Score:5, Informative)

    by dr-suess-fan (210327) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:20PM (#5505391)
    Sorry, But....

    Our shop has been evaluating the purchase of AS for some time now. It's been 1500US/yr and 2500US/yr
    for a few months at least.

    This latest offering is only adding ES and WS for
    those who still need/want support but don't want the
    full enterprise price.
  • by nenolod (546272) <[nenolod] [at] [gmail.com]> on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:21PM (#5505401) Homepage
    And, you go around and troll.

    RPM is actually a pretty good packaging system, and RPM-based distros are what will bring linux to the consumer, because the common idiot can run the system.

    You _CAN_ use a stock kernel, and they offer many precompiled kernels that you can use. The files are in an acceptable location (i.e. configs are in /etc, so what do you mean there?)

    Also, you can DOWNLOAD it, so you arent paying $$$$$. Anyhow, I prefer Debian/Gentoo, so dont call this a redhat plug.
  • Nice support options (Score:5, Informative)

    by jarrod.smith (580058) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:22PM (#5505414)
    The top tier costs $2500 and you get one year of 24x7 support with a one-hour response time and unlimited incedents.

    For a mission-critical business system (like one that MAKES REAL MONEY for a company) this is not a bad price to pay to keep running.

    ALso, if you've only got one or two boxes like this, paying RedHat $2500 a year would be a lot cheaper than keeping a really good UNIX sysadmin around.

    I think if you look at the competition (Microsoft and Commercial UNIX vendors), this would be pretty good deal.

  • Why it costs so much (Score:3, Informative)

    by Hellraisr (305322) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:23PM (#5505427)
    It's because they're offering 5 years of service with the software, which is pretty good if you ask me.
  • by dissy (172727) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:23PM (#5505428)
    > One of the big advantages of linux is the cost

    But one of the big advantages of Windows is support.

    Now in the linux camp you can get free and supportless, or pricy and supported.
    In the windows camp you only have pricy and supported.

    Two vs One is still a win for linux over windows at that game.
  • Re:Price Hike? (Score:3, Informative)

    by FrostedWheat (172733) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:28PM (#5505487)
    Does somebody actually pay money for Red Hat. I thought everybody downloaded for free from their web site.

    We do both!

    Normally download the .0 or .1 releases, and buying the boxed .2 (normally stable) version. You get a lot more CD's with it plus a really handy 'survival CD' that contains some very useful tools if your having a non-boot day ;)

    Oh, and my computer now has a nice "Powered by RedHat" sticker now! Worth the price alone!
  • by Chewie (24912) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:32PM (#5505530)
    Um, last I checked, Win2K server (with 5 CALs) lists for $999, and you're not going to find it for $800 or less from many people (I am talking retail version, not academic or OEM, and this is the price point that RH's website is addressing: retail). Another poster has noted that there are also many server programs and utilities included that you would have to pay extra for with Windows. Finally, CIOs who don't know much don't like stuff that's dirt cheap. They seem to associate it with bad or unprofessional. Dumb, but true.
  • by ewilts (121990) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:36PM (#5505561) Homepage
    1.It's the support.

    2. There are no binary ISOs

    Red Hat does to lots of customizations, and if download the source rpms, you can look at the changelogs to see what they've done.

    If you download the source rpms and build a system yourself, you'll have trouble getting patches for that system - in fact, they're not available at all via RHN unless you pay the subscription fee to the right channel.

  • This isnt bad (Score:3, Informative)

    by bludstone (103539) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:39PM (#5505587)
    I work for a company (that will go nameless) that offers 24/7, 1 hour callback tech support on the product.

    No, its not redhat.

    We charge over $20,000 for A SINGLE USER.

    This is very _very_ competatively priced.
  • by bongoras (632709) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:43PM (#5505629) Homepage
    I would suggest installing apt for rpm. See http://freshrpms.net/apt for details. Once that is installed and configured, updating to the latest redhat patches is as simple as:

    apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade
  • by Chewie (24912) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:44PM (#5505638)
    Yes, if you want to pay $800 for each installation. Take a look at the license agreements [redhat.com] for the relevant software. Lots of talk of subscriptions and audits.
  • by LinuxParanoid (64467) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:49PM (#5505679) Homepage Journal
    Red Hat has definitely been inching up the scale.

    Journal filesystems hitting maturity, logical volume management, asynchronous I/O for the database guys, TPC-C benchmarks (unaudited though?), improved clustering

    There are still things Linux lacks (last I checked) that the conventional UNIX vendors have added to their systems over the last five years: things like hot-swap memory, hot-swap CPUs, memory failure resiliency (OS quits using memory if recoverable but warning-sign single-bit ECC memory errors get too great), kernel hot-patching, multipath IO, workload management stuff, and ever-more SMP/NUMA scalability.

    Still, seems like Red Hat is making great strides. Hat's off! (ugh, sorry about that, couldn't resist. ;-)

    --LP
  • by Zathrus (232140) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:52PM (#5505705) Homepage
    So why not go with the Standard service for $1500?

    I'm guessing you're wanting 24x7 support, but not with 1 hour turn around or unlimited incidents. And if web support isn't sufficient (and, in general, I can't imagine a 4 business day turnaround being sufficient) then, yeah, I guess you're out of options.

    But just how many calls would you need to put into MS or Novell before Redhat becomes cheaper? What about turnaround time? How long do your servers need to be down before that 1 hour turnaround starts paying back?

    The second question is really the key one -- I suspect most shops could get along just fine with the Standard option, which is pretty dang cheap. And if you're just replacing a file server or the like then go with ES - which is $350 or $800 depending on your support needs.

    As for who they're targeting - I'm not a sysadmin, but it would seem to me that ES is targeted more toward the Novell/MS and AS more toward Solaris/AIX/HP-UX. It's certainly not a hard line though. But, in general, it's a lot easier to port an application from another Unix to Linux than it is from Windows/Novell to Linux.
  • by Turadg (13362) <[ ] ['' in gap]> on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:52PM (#5505707)
    I'd be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount ($50/yr/machine) for something like this.

    How about $60?
    Red Hat Network Purchase Information [redhat.com]

    Red Hat Network Basic service level: $60/year per system subscription

    Red Hat Network Basic service provides software management, priority service, and access to Instant ISOs (full versions of Red Hat Linux) for individuals with one or more systems. A Basic subscription is required for each system supported on Red Hat Network. A Basic subscription to Red Hat Network provides:

    • Email notifications of available updates (errata)
    • Flexible scheduling of updates
    • Delivery of the actual updated files (packages)
    • Summaries of update results
  • by tarkin (34045) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:55PM (#5505733) Homepage
    There's a nice page here [redhat.com] explaining the differences between normal and Enterprise versions.

    Very useful for the suit to choose which Redhat is suited for him ;-)
  • Paying for Linux (Score:2, Informative)

    by towaz (445789) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @03:59PM (#5505774)
    Your not paying for Linux your paying for the support. Also companies have someone other then microsoft to point the blame at when something goes wrong... :)

  • by vondo (303621) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @04:00PM (#5505786)
    I don't think so, because as I understand it, that's for the Standard version of linux which has a 12-month lifetime (which means 9 or less by the time we get it rolled out). I'd love to be wrong and that one could get errata for several years for standard Linux or Enterprise that way.
  • by stratjakt (596332) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @04:08PM (#5505861) Journal
    No, that stuff exists [stratus.com] in the PC world. Linux support for it doesnt.

  • by Todd Knarr (15451) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @04:23PM (#5506013) Homepage

    Then you may have a problem, because most non-Linux vendors won't offer you that indemnity either. As MS customers are finding out with the SQL Server lawsuits, for example. At least with RedHat you have the ability to produce the source to prove it's not the suing party's software.

  • Re:Per machine? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Tack (4642) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @04:28PM (#5506080) Homepage
    Can anyone clarify for me whether these "subscriptions" are explicitly licensed for exactly one machine?

    From RedHat's License Page [redhat.com]:

    • 4. REPORTING AND AUDIT. If Customer wishes to
    • increase the number of Installed System, then Customer will purchase from Red Hat additional Services for each additional Installed System. During the term of this Agreement and for one (1) year thereafter, Customer expressly grants to Red Hat the right to audit Customer's facilities and records from time to time in order to verify Customer's compliance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
    (Emphasis mine.)

    So the answer is, it is X dollars ($1500, $800, 350, $180, whichever product / service level you want) per year, per system. That may be competitive if you want or need business hours or 24-hour phone support, all the fancy certifications and other features you get with RHEL, but if you just want access to binary erratas for a 3-5 year product life span, that's not realistic pricing, IMHO.

    Jason.

  • Re:Neato (Score:5, Informative)

    by belloc (37430) <bellocNO@SPAMlatinmail.com> on Thursday March 13, 2003 @04:55PM (#5506293) Homepage
    Wait, I thought what was stopping Linux was the lack of a proper email/calendaring/contacts solution (server and client side, nicely integrated) that actually works.

    Samsung Contact [samsungcontact.com]. It works. Server runs on Unix variants or Linux (currently RH and SuSE). You can use their PC client, their Linux client, their web client, or Outlook 98/2k/XP (with the Samsung MAPI drivers). I've been using it on linux since it was HP Openmail. Back then, there were some issues with MAPI driver functionality, but it worked pretty well. Since Samsung has gotten their hands on it, it is fantastic, no reservations whatsoever.

    No, it's not free (beer/speech). Until someone is able to do this under some sort of OSS license, I'll gladly pay for Samsung Contact.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 13, 2003 @05:05PM (#5506377)

    Is this for real? In what way is the fee one pays for priority access to RHN a "tax"? Is it somehow involuntary? Oh, you don't want to pay for it, I see, so it's a tax; I guess what I pay for food at the store is 100% tax, then. You want a for-profit company to provide stuff to you for free. I see, and what do they get out of it?

    Yes, yes, you can get updates for Debian for free. That's great. I hope you donate to Debian. That bandwidth ain't free.

    I've heard vicious rumours (can't possibly be true) that Redhat offers free subscriptions to their update service. Even more untrustworthy freaks have come up to me on the street and claimed you don't even have to go through RedHat's servers to get updates. The wildest-eyed of the bunch say you can even use apt if you want to.

    Redhat pays people, including kernel hackers, to add improvements to the overall system you, even you Debian users, like so much. Quick: name a piece of GPL code on your system that contains contributions from Microsoft. Now name one by Redhat. Redhat, as a corporate entity, appears to have something like a social conscience, too. If you do some research, you might come across some evidence of it.

  • by Wee (17189) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @05:37PM (#5506694)
    Actually, up2date defaults to NOT upgrading the kernel. You CAN force update the kernel. I have done this twice (on a test box, while sitting in front of it) and it worked great. rebooted and it actually worked. but generally it tells you it is skipping the kernel because it is marked to skip.

    I wasn't very clear in my original statement. Get a testing box, install 7.2. Now download, patch, configure, build, and install a new kernel. Now put a 7.3 CD in the drive, reboot, select "Upgrade" from the installer and see how far you get.

    I had to do these very steps to get a better VM and a new IDE (a driver that let me use DMA) driver for a machine at work. In order to get that box functioning, I basically had to make it "un-upgradeable". Therefore when support runs out in December, I will have to either:

    a) re-image it, and reconfigure everything on it (at which point I should just buy Advanced Workstation, right?)
    b) upgrade packages by hand
    c) twiddle with up2date's config so that it think it's a newer release
    d) done nothing, switch distros, hope, use apt4rpm, etc.

    You wil be forced to do something. Red Hat has decided it.

    As to them not supporting after a year, I need to check into this.

    From http://redhat.com/apps/support/errata/ [redhat.com]:

    Beginning with the 8.0 release, Red Hat will provide errata maintenance for at least 12 months from the date of initial release. At certain times, Red Hat may extend errata maintenance for certain popular releases of the operating system. End of Life dates for errata maintenance for currently supported products are listed below:

    Red Hat Linux 8.0 (Psyche) December 31, 2003
    Red Hat Linux 7.3 (Valhalla) December 31, 2003
    Red Hat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) December 31, 2003
    Red Hat Linux 7.1 (Seawolf) December 31, 2003

    I use, and PREFER 7.2. I have installed 8.0 on a couple machines, and don't like it quite as well, perhaps because I am just used to 7.2.

    Pardon my French, but tough shit. You'll have to either constantly upgrade, buy AW, or you'll upgrade everything by hand. See the list above. My big beef with Red Hat is that in their move to get everyone on AW/AS, they have forgotten the "little guy" like you and me. You don't even have the option to pay for errata support, no matter how badly you need it. Even thought they'll still be making packages for the same release of AW (which will be almost completely compatible with the free version of Red Hat), they won't be making them available to people who want to install packages by hand. It's not just that up2date will stop working -- there won't be any packages anymore.

    I worry about upgrading my RENTED RACKSHACK boxes. Its not advisable to update a box that is located 1300 miles away via ssh.

    Agreed. That's a sticky issue. I'd make sure someone around there will be able to powercycle if you need them too. I'd also see about getting a failover box or a hot spare similarly configured.

    Now if they follow thru with their EOL products 12 months after new release, then my opinion of RH would change, and I would be looking at other distros.

    Their EOL plans are certain and definite. Start looking. I've been looking at KRUD (although I wonder where they will get packages), SuSE and Gentoo. The KRUD people, BTW, are evaluating EOL contracts to support older Red Hat releases. That may be a way out for you (and me), provided it's cheap enough.

    Outside of building new kernels, which i can do by hand, i see no reason to switch from 7.2, period.

    Really? Again, tough shit. Red Hat has made that decision for you. Or, at very least, forced you to decide. That force comes from business needs, not your needs. I'm personally fed up with Red Hat. I've been using it since 4.2, and I own RHAT stock. The thing I liked about Linux was that decisi

  • by mabhatter654 (561290) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @05:48PM (#5506812)
    $700 for MS win 2k server? what world do you live in?

    With the MS Win2k server all you get is the server and 5 accesses! No support [MS phone support is more $$ than phone SE#!], magrinal quality updates, and a system that cuts you off after 5 connections!

    The $700 license doesn't include Software Assurance. It dosen't include email or management tools either! For an MS network you will pay another $150 per box just to connect to the server [actual windows licenses not included!] Just posted at HardOCP was MS finally changing their licensing to allow multiple partitions on the same box. Previously, you had to pay "per instance per processor" of Windows on your boxes!

    In short, It's a steal. If you can't see that you obviously don't actually work in IT to see how bad MS has gotten! As you learn your way around, you get experience that doesn't go away--then you can fully support you own boxes for real savings. [even after your big raise for saving the Co $$$]
  • by Karn (172441) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @06:29PM (#5507156)
    I saw it mentioned briefly before, but I think most people have missed it. I saw it mentioned some time ago on Linux.com:

    Current [tigris.org] is an open-source implementation of an up2date server.

    I've used it, and it does work, however I'm waiting for multple channel functionality and some other features before I switch to using it instead of apt.

  • by PerryMason (535019) on Thursday March 13, 2003 @11:09PM (#5508801)
    Part of the reason i have the account is to get these test servers 'up to speed' to keep from getting hacked while i am testing.

    Hi,

    Really late come to the party so to speak, but you sound like you could use apt-rpm. I do a lot of building test servers and there is nothing that makes it easier than running your own local ftp/apt server.

    I mirror the RedHat 6.2, 7.1, 7.2 and 8.0 distros and update folders from my local redhat mirror. Keep it up to date with rsync and all you need to do to get an 'up to speed' server is throw in a floppy with the build requirements which includes a post install command to update via apt.

    I can get a server from nothing to fully installed and patched up in the space of 10-15 minutes without any intervention whatsoever. I've got kickstart floppies with comp files setup to install each of the basic type of servers that I test on and do ftp installs across the network.

    You get the advantage of speed, plus you only end up downloading the update packages once, instead of each time you update a new test box. Add to this that you can have cron jobs running on any of your permanent boxes to update themselves via apt instead of the RedHat network stuff. I personally package up anything I _would_ have installed as a tarball to an rpm and plonk it in my apt tree and can roll it out fromt there. It really does make life easier.

    Well just a few thoughts for you that you probably won't even read, but it needs to be said.

...when fits of creativity run strong, more than one programmer or writer has been known to abandon the desktop for the more spacious floor. - Fred Brooks, Jr.

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