MA Dept. of Revenue consider Linux 407
hansroy writes "Massachusetts Department of Revenue is still using Windows 95 on the desktop. Faced with upgrade costs of $500-600 per user, they're considering Linux at about one-third the cost. This comes at a very good time, as the new governor of MA is making significant budget cuts this year."
I dunno (Score:4, Interesting)
1. $600 for WinXP
2. Putting Linux on all the machines, configuring them to work interoperably with the Windows machines, and retraining everyone?
No idea which really is cheaper, but I wouldn't automatically say "Linux is cheaper". Training costs money. Interoperability work costs money.
-Erwos
One third? (Score:2, Interesting)
I take it they mean training, right?
I wonder how long it would take to train all of those people on Linux. It's not like they're using Linux for a server, it's just average joe using a computer. Chances are they haven't even heard of Linux (the people using those desktops).
Wait a second. $500-600? (Score:1, Interesting)
According to Pricegrabber.com [pricegrabber.com], Windows 2000 Professional upgrade is only $158.
Small wonder they have a budget crisis if this is a typical example of their expenditures
IMO (Score:4, Interesting)
ah, a man has gotta have a right to dream, eh?
hopefully it works. (Score:3, Interesting)
for example, i use a 3d cadd package (solid edge) to model parts and make drawings. as far as i know, the closest thing for linux is the army's brl-cad. which isn't very close at all.
in addition, our parts database has pdf's, doc's, xls's and such as part of the oracle database. there is a web frontend, but what good is it if you can't open the microsoft attachments.
there are many other layers of shackles in place, and there is no way anyone would easily be able to change platforms.
linux may work in this situation where the switch is from windows 95. any place the dor switches to will require new file formats, new programs and more training for everyone. so there is no net loss directly associated with switching to linux in particular.
My magic 8-ball sez... (Score:3, Interesting)
B) So I understand that the state estimates that they will have to pay $300 per new PC, with no cost for Linux? Who wants to be that Ballmer will now offer to sell the state XP licenses for fifty bucks a pop.
Now what's going to happen next is going to be intereting. Microsoft will argue that fifty bucks a pop would still be cheaper than the cost of retraining their orkers.
That's absolutely true. The only realistic way I see for Linux to be a viable option here would be either if:
A) The state intends to load Linux on their existing, aging PCs, thus eliminating the hardware costs alltogether, but were this true the story would've reflected that
B) The state was so scrapped for cash that even the fifty bucks per XP is too much, and they do not consider retraining as a budget line item
C) The state is smart enough to realize the monetary value of vendor lock-in. The greatest savnigs the state will realize with the Linux solution, of course, is the elimination of vendor lock-in. That's something that Microsoft will desperately try to avoid mentioning, but their popular trick is to first act as if they're going to give away copies of XP at rock-bottom price, only forgeting to emphasize that the "fire sale" is only for the first two or three years of the annual XP subscription license, and after the honeymoon is over, you bend over, grab your ankles, and start shitting out XP license fees...
Why upgrade? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean, if the computers were built for a specific purpose, and they're still used for that purpose, why upgrade?
Reasons to upgrade:
1.) Your programs require more system resources. This is fair. We were using QuickBooks from ages ago until they stopped providing tax tables for our version, forcing us to upgrade *grr* and the new version has new bells and whistles so that it bogs down the P-90 w/ 32 megs of ram.
2.) You want support from Microsoft. But, then, if you really wanted to install all the updates for windows 95, wow. That's a lot of updates, probably adding enough to your system to bog it down alone.
But, then, why not upgrade the hardware and install the same copies of Win95? You'd be surprised how many programs will work with win95.
Or, how much do new copies of windows 98 cost? I don't know if they're still available, or how that works. You may have to do the MS stupid "upgrade to downgrade" thing.
If you want to keep windows there are lots of alternatives to look at. I say this because developing new software for linux and training your average high school grad 40 year old secretary to use linux won't be cheap. Something like RedHat 8 is intuitive, but it ain't perfect. Keep in mind that intuitive doesn't mean everything - familiarity is much more important.
I'm all for linux, but I'm also all for lowering the TCO. And i know that over time, linux is definately cheaper. But, then, how many politicians look long term? You look short term so that you get re-elected. Long term politicians get voted out of office.
~Will
Re:I dunno (Score:5, Interesting)
"Linux is only free if you have more surplus time than money."
This is more often the case than not.
Potluck Economics (Score:2, Interesting)
Linux wins on two fronts. Not only is it cheaper, but it's also better. Let's use an analogy of food as an example and consider Microsoft as the McDonald's of the computer industry. Just about everyone goes there every once in a while. It has cheap prices, and the food tastes good, just like Windows used to be relatively cheap, and looked good too. It served the lowest common denominator.
Now, however, we have this new kind of food coming out, and a new consciousness about health, nutrition, the environment, first, and price in a very distant second. This food _simultaneously_ redifines the playing fieild in terms of both price and quality. Sure, it has some way to go before it's complete, but the people that are aware of the ingredients going in absolutely know that it will crush other competition once it comes out of the oven. It's composed of the most fantastic, nutritious, tasty, ecosystem-friendly ingredients. Some of us are tasting the ingredients going in, and while the end users (or customers) are saying "we don't want a meal composed of just boring x", we respond, no, this is just one ingredient in the most fantastic potluck ever conceived.
Those that don't bring something to the table may eat anyway, but if they are allowed to bring something to the table, it should be at least as good as what's already there. Some redundancy is ok, like two different types of the same dish, but overall people try to coordinate so that there can be sufficient variety to solve the main categories.
We can get the basic requirements out of the way, and then start allowing for more specialized dishes. Then, certain people can start skipping producing meals if they have an idea for a dish that requires much more time to prepare, but will be an incredible treat once it arrives.
If meals can be taken care of, maybe other types of goods can come next, and people can skip producing for meals as long as people trust that they're producing other goods. We may not require perfection in terms of allocation of services, but be satisfied with evidence of effort. It all depends on the infrastructure to coordinate such a feat. Perhaps this is what we're working on now.
Re:The usual question... (Score:4, Interesting)
What you have demonstrated is that there is now real competition, something that has been absent from the Desktop OS market for far too long.
Customers will start switching unless Microsoft does something - lowering prices, adding more value, reducing TCO - anything to try and keep them in the fold. Capitalism at work.
We win.
Soko
LTSP.ORG is the answer (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if they have 10BaseT, LTSP.org will work OK 8)
Massachusetts (Score:3, Interesting)
Massachusetts Appealing Microsoft Ruling [slashdot.org]
given the recent law passed in Massachusetts, which prevents people from just throwing away old computers and monitors.... [slashdot.org]
Pretty impressive...
1 LTSP.ORG server is the cheapest (Score:3, Interesting)
The best incentinve is administration, fine tune 1 server, and all clients are fine tunned as well, no sinchronisation or anything, install a new version of software, they will all be able to use it instantly!
So instead of repeating tasks all over the building, you will have more time to spend at slashdot! 8)
The cost of training isn't that big of a deal... (Score:3, Interesting)
All staff have to be trained at some point to use all these things. Clicking in Windows or clicking in Linux, it is about the same. Training to use a word processor under Linux is no more expensive than training to use a word processor under windows.
The real training is not so much with the average user but with the support staff. Linux is very different under the hood than Windows. But again staff must be trained and retrained every time that Microsoft upgrades their server software. The new active directory is way different than the normal domain model.
The question is not whether the training is expensive the question is do you want to train to use Linux or Windows.
With Windows it seems like you get lead by the nose down the path of expensive proprietary software. That doesn't happen with Linux.
XP requires hardware upgrades too (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Wait a second. $500-600? (Score:2, Interesting)
260 - Cost of Windows client and server per desktop
300 - Cost of MS Office 2K and Outlook per client
43 - Cost of Exchange per client desktop
19 - Cost of Microsoft Client access license
30 - Cost of MAPI License per desktop
652 - Total per desktop
Multiply this by 3,500 desktops.
Total cost is $2,282,000 in just software licensing. This does not include the obviously needed hardware upgrades. Nor does it include the cost of upgrading each machine from Windows 95 to MS w2K or XP. The $200 quoted in the original article was the predicted cost to upgrade each desktop to Linux. This means the cost of the actual work done to perform the conversion. the licensing costs of the desktops running Linux works out to be effectively zero.
And don't forget license tracking and auditing costs.
The transition is *not* that painful (Score:3, Interesting)
The replacement consisted of RedHat Linux (7.x until 8.x came out), Gnome, OpenOffice and Mozilla. The choice of RedHat over other distros was made more because the other techs were new to Linux too and I might not be there all the time. The servers still run Slackware >:)
The results have been great and the staff had far fewer problems than expected and interestingly 98% of the tech calls that come in are from the on the road sales guys having problems using XP, which came preloaded on their laptops.
Re:I dunno (Score:5, Interesting)
And conversely, Windows is only <whatever the sticker price happens to be> if your time has no value. Both systems have costs above and beyond the purchase price, not just Linux. And going from Win95 to XP would involve retraining as well. Things change -- I've still got a copy of MSWord 1.0 (for DOS and OS/2), and it bears little or no resemblance to the MSWord of today.
Ironic that his competitor used StarOffice... (Score:2, Interesting)
Nothing really newsworthy, I guess, it's just late and I'm bored.
Re:I dunno (Score:3, Interesting)
I have no survey to back this up, just my own experience, but I feel sure that over 95% of office workers use "Office" to write memos and letters, 1-2 pages long for the most part. They need email too, though it's surprising how many govt workers DON'T have email.
Basically, most could use a typewriter instead with little effect on productivity, maybe an increase as they wouldn't be able to surf or play solitaire.
Assuming that, all they need to know is how to open a new document, start typing, spellcheck optionally, and print/send. Really, you can learn this in 1/2 hour. Maybe a little longer if people obsess about menus being in different places than they're used to.
The minority that want or need to write spreadsheet macros and the like will take longer to retrain; the simplest option perhaps to allow some to remain with MS for a longer transition period. But Sun and others are working hard on making this easy.
The biggest PC-use productivity boost would come if everyone was given touch-typing lessons. Most staff these days (including myself) are hunt and peck, self-taught typists.
Largo and training (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I dunno (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:few things on state/local govt. (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe this is where something like Crossover Office is REALLY useful. As long as these third party apps don't use the more obscure undocumented parts of the Windows API, they've got a pretty good chance of operating fine through Crossover Office.
It's certainly testable...