Upgrading Training and Certification? 381
"I checked out just about every 'school' offering training and placement in the New York City area, and frankly each of them almost had me running screaming into the night. Atrocious facilities, hot, stuffy, cramped classrooms and teachers whose every other words are 'memorize this--it will be on the test.'
Most places were shocked when I said I didn't care about certifications and exams. I explained that I need not just the theory but some hands-on experience with hardware that I don't have access to at home, and knowledge sufficient to at least get me something entry-level once again.
I learn best by demonstration and instruction so CBT CD-ROMs and 'go-read-a-book' aren't viable options for me. Since I'm not currently employed, I also need some form of placement assistance as well. Frankly, I didn't think this was too much to ask for until I really started looking. I looked at Learning Tree specifically, but their policies are strictly business-to-business training, not to individuals."
Volunteer (Score:3, Insightful)
speaking of certifications... (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuhget about it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Employers up job requirements in tough times (Score:5, Insightful)
Training is about certs, not learning (Score:3, Insightful)
People want the certs because they think its the key to a job. Or people need the certs, because their PHBs require them to get/keep/update certs.
PHBs want certs because it shows they're hiring a "qualified" workforce. HR people screen for certs because they're usually too ignorant to look for anything else, and they all have nice acronyms they can type into search engines.
If you want to actually *learn* something, most IT training isn't the place to find it. Cisco training by and large is pretty good, but it still focuses a lot on "Psst, it's on the CCNA test". I've taken MS training that's been OK, although the "learning" was something that could have been compressed into 2 days, minus the bullshit and compulsory 20 minute cig breaks every 60 minutes.
I think the best learning is the hardest kind; pounding your head against the CRT until the manpages, HOWTOs and other stuff sink in and you can actually string stuff together. It's incredibly frustrating and time consuming compared to having someone teach you, but AFAIK there's no one actually *teaching* most of what most admins do.
Re:Community college? (Score:3, Insightful)
Every time I've taken a course at one, the class is divided into two groups of people, those who are there to learn, and those who don't know why they're there. The ones who don't know why they're there don't do any of the assignments and try to learn as little as possible. Invariably, the class is dumbed down to suit them, and the most interesting half the of the material is skipped.
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Get a Degree (Score:2, Insightful)
However since you said you were unemployed, all I can say is get some student loans and/or hit up the local Junior College for some supplemental education. You'll have better luck their than at most of these technical colleges that advertise on tv.
Re:who knows who and the favor (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you need to know people who are working at a place that is hiring...
Right now, 50% of my friends are out of work and looking, or are working at a place that won't be hiring in the near future, or are in a completely different industry from me (I have a house, and switching careers would mean selling the house).
Too many resumes (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who does first line review and decisions of candidates, I can say with certainly that a resume that appears to be crafted to address each need that we state in the ad is more likely to get considered. Obviously, there are limits to this, but you may want to consider more closely the idea of putting more effort into fewer resumes, rather than a blanketing of 800 or so.
Re:Recommended if you're in Canada: ITI (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why would you want that? (Score:4, Insightful)
I would suggest
1. find a direction, UNIX, Networking (Cisco etc..), programming (what ever language)
2. try to simulate a working environment at home, buy cheap equipment on eBay, etc..
3. study for the exam but don't go to the classes (they are mostly useless), Use your setup at home to simulate a working environment.
4. get books (at least 3 on the subject) and study materials on the subject of choice and dig deep, devour all the material on said subject cover to cover twice.
This process will really teach you,
Most of the time things learned quickly are lost quickly.
Re:Fuhget about it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Community college? (Score:2, Insightful)
Take a look at DeAnza in the San Jose area. Good place, good facilities. Lotta good courses, and a lotta good stuff aimed at the IT night-school crowd.
Some of their teachers are good in their field. But some of their teachers are just there for the spare cash, and either aren't putting in the effort on their end, or just have no fucking idea how to teach.
I had one Unix scripting teacher there whose favorite phrase was "We'll talk about it later..." He sucked ass. Didn't learn a thing from him. But look again, and you'll see a guy like John Perry, who teaches Perl and C. John teaches well, works hard, wants his students to understand, explaining and exemplifying all the way, and John brooks no bullshit.
Anyway, my point is just that it can be a crapshoot even within a single organization. If you're going to be out of work for a while, and into training for the long haul (like a lot of us), then hang around if you can, talk to some students, find out who the good teachers are. My $0.02.
Check The Resume (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you're horribly unqualified or applying for jobs that're totally out of your league, you should have got at least a few responses off 800 resumes - assuming they're great resumes.
I went through 6 months of searching, ending a little over a year ago. About the only thing that really changed from the beginning, where I was getting no responses, to the end, where I was getting [relatively] regular ones, was the resume. Sure, I worked on my skillsets but self-taught Perl wasn't what made the difference.
The point is, I started by writing great resumes that focused on everything I, as a tech, thought was valuable. Unfortunately, what's valuable to a tech and what gets you employed as a tech are two totally different things.
You put down that you have JSP, the HR department that're told to look for a web programmer with Java&JSP will discount you because you don't have "Java" - the other techs will never see the resume to realise the mistake. You put down a list of dry technical skills (because it's a tech position, after all) and the "manager" of the department who has a business degree and no IT experience won't hire you because they're looking for a team player. You try listing every technical skill and spill on to a third page - it gets thrown in the trash by someone who's received 300 resumes and doesn't want the hassle of reading to the last page where you mention the valuable stuff or they skip straight to the middle and miss the things you carefully put at the front.
Those O'Reilly books that have been tempting you will be one of the best investments you've ever made once you're working. Until then, a really good resume book is probably more valuable.
I honestly believe that, stupid as it may be, a perfect resume will get a significantly less skilled person a job much faster in the current flooded market than a significantly more skilled person with an "adequate" resume.
Like I said at the start, unless you're applying way out of your league, with 800 refusals, your resume is almost certainly good but not the perfect example that you need in the current market.
Computer Science w/ Business Administration (Score:5, Insightful)
Real universities will have fully stocked computer labs. Many are Microsoft or Cisco affiliated training partners so if you want to get the enterprise software (Exchange, IIS, MOM) or have a lab full of nice Catalyst routers to play with they are the place to go.
Most human resources people will perk up at an accredited university on a resume than someplace like Learning Tree or Global Knowledge.
Re:On your own (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nothin, and I mean nothing is getting IT employ (Score:1, Insightful)
Outsourcing is the way to go. Esp. with the slow
economy. You can charge more.
Plus you are working for you.
But I would setup an S-Corp.
This will give you some protection liability wise
Also provides an option to retain earnings for the future and only get taxed on what you pay
yourself.
Its $90 in the state of Indiana. I am not
certain in your state.
You file two IRS forms the SS4 and then 2553
to get S treatment.
You file an 1120S every year. And add or subtract
the earnings or losses from your usual 1040.
This also has some kick with PHBs they like
working with Corporations. It really doesn't
matter that you are the only employee.
Re:Why would you want that? (Score:3, Insightful)
Two things: (a) keep your reading up. Never slack off on that, and (b) be willing to take on work beneath your skills and do more than you're asked. If you can't get a promotion you can leverage the experience for the next job.
One of the things that helps (I've read a *lot* of resumes) is to emphasize things you've done, not tools you've used; e.g. "I'm helping to build a cathedral" rather than "I'm laying bricks" point of view. Treat the tools you know as incidental to the job of helping your employer achieve their aims.
Oracle DBA is the way to go (Score:2, Insightful)
buy a 50$ DBA book and sit down and learn that shit
As with online job resumes... here's a tip i picked up. Don't bother.. You go online only to find the listing. However most times you will see an email too. Better to submit your resume directly ALONG WITH A COVER LETTER!!!
A cover letter is very important and make sure you triple check it for grammar spelling and all those other stupid nonsense u may normally say.
Landing the interview is all about the presentation. Make sure you present yourself in your cover letter. If you think you know oracle after doing it on your own make sure your resume reflects this. Look on the net on how to write a technical resume as oppose to your say business resume
The NY market is far from flat
I have yet to meet anyone I know personally who couldn't get a job in the IT market in NY.
Re:Absolutely True (Score:3, Insightful)
What does a degree show? That you can put up with 4 years of BS instead of a few months in the case of a certification. It's not like I learned anything at my degree--I just spent 4 years and thousands of dollars to get a piece of paper that no-one's ever asked to see anyway. A degree means you were protected from the real world for 4 more years while you spent weekends partying and making out with girls. I'm not saying that's a bad way to spend 4 years, but is it any real factor on which to base a hiring decision?
Sayeth me:
I don't know where you went, but a) the school will influence the difficulty of your coursework and b) what you get out of school, like pretty much anything else, will depend heaviliy on what you put into it.
There's BS everywhere, nearly. It creeps between people, but it doesn't mean that's all that was there.
I didn't get my degree becasue someone might want to "see it", but becasue I wanted to learn. Granted, I needed it to get into grad school, but I didn't just stumble through, I worked, and I got a lot out of it. I know quite a few other people who had the same experience, so I'm not alone in this. I also didn't spend my weekends partying and making out with girls. Guys, maybe.
This isn't necessarily the best thing to base a hiring decision on, but it's really hard to have interviews with all of the 5000 people applying for each spot...
Lea
WAKE UP, YOU'RE DREAMING (Score:4, Insightful)
First off: where have you been? The economy has been in increased recession for the last two years, nearly. I know of people in large metropolitan areas who have 4 year CS degrees at prestigious schools, plus 2+ years of high level administration experience making 22.5k USD a year, with no benefits.
Meanwhile, here you are, a -Windows- administrator (do not even think of calling that a sysadmin - sysadmin is a UNIX has always been UNIX-specific), just expecting for someone to bight your resume? I've got news for you: if you haven't figured out yet after sending out even 400 applications that you're under-qualified for the kinds of jobs you're applying for, you need a serious reality adjustment.
If anything, the type of job you've applied for is the type that companies are cutting back on the most, relying on a skeleton crew until the recession ends.
If you really want to work with computers, -try- and get a tech support job. I wish you luck. You'll need it.
I know of quite a few people who are stellar programmers, experienced UNIX sysadmins and windows administrators - your all-around qualified individuals for pretty damned near anything you could put them to - who are working tech-support level jobs right now because there's just nothing else in the field available. Given your (apparent) mindset, you'd be bantha fodder against people like this, even with 4 more years of schooling.
Now, I too find I learn in the same fashion that you do - it only makes sense, because most humans do. It's the way we've been designed, evolved - whatever. The point being, what you're asking for is direct hands-on tutlage or an apprenticeship. If it's apprenticeship you want, seek out a company and ask to pay them to work under strict supervision of their dominant sysadmin. That's probably your best chance.
Here is my honest and most sincere advice for you: forget about computers. There are many, many more qualified people, many, many more -skilled- people. It's a recession, for crying out loud - one that doesn't promise to let up for a while, either, as any Econ 101 student would be able to tell you. Use your head and go to school for something that's got a fairly high failsafe level with a diverse career choice after graduation - like a business or telecommunications major. You've already demonstrated your lack of head for computers by asking one too many stupid questions.
Re:Absolutely True (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yeah, a degree requires NO work at all, you're totally right. I mean, what are exams? Nothing. Surely, having 6 3-hour exams in a week ranging all over subjects you've learnt in the last 3 years does not require any intelligence whatsoever. And maths is piss, too. What is it with these people and Legendre polynomials, that they think they're so hard... they must all be completely brainless.
Grow up: You've clearly got some sort of jealousy towards degrees... obviously you don't have one.
What do degrees prove? Depends on the university, but from a good uni in a sience subject (I did physics at Oxford Uni in England) they certainly prove that:
1) You can work a fuckload when you need to
2) You can learn very complex stuff - ie there won't be anything you will meet in your working life that you can't learn
Those two alone seem to me to be quite crucial for your working life. Who wants to hire someone when they don't know whether that person will be able to evolve and be worth keeping in the future? No one likes to lay off people (well, except the sadists, but those are rare).
Daniel