Upgrading Training and Certification? 381
"I checked out just about every 'school' offering training and placement in the New York City area, and frankly each of them almost had me running screaming into the night. Atrocious facilities, hot, stuffy, cramped classrooms and teachers whose every other words are 'memorize this--it will be on the test.'
Most places were shocked when I said I didn't care about certifications and exams. I explained that I need not just the theory but some hands-on experience with hardware that I don't have access to at home, and knowledge sufficient to at least get me something entry-level once again.
I learn best by demonstration and instruction so CBT CD-ROMs and 'go-read-a-book' aren't viable options for me. Since I'm not currently employed, I also need some form of placement assistance as well. Frankly, I didn't think this was too much to ask for until I really started looking. I looked at Learning Tree specifically, but their policies are strictly business-to-business training, not to individuals."
Recommended if you're in Canada: ITI (Score:5, Informative)
who knows who and the favor (Score:4, Informative)
It has been my experience (and others that I know) that getting a job is a lot easier if you know someone at the place you want work at. If they have enough swag to put in a good word for you, that foot in the door could push your resume to the top of the stack. Cold calls are a rough way to go.
Training? Necessary.. but experience is king.
Re:speaking of certifications... (Score:3, Informative)
And I have been turned down for temp work, rollouts and what not, for lack of it.
Cisco (Score:3, Informative)
ITI: Nonsense! (Score:3, Informative)
I've met some really bright people that came from ITI, but the majority I've met (80%) are people who feel that they're supposed to earn a wad a cash without proving themselves. It sucks that one pays so much for schooling but that doesn't give you a right to demand a massive salary or delude yourself that you're better qualified.
Go to Sheridan College or some other technical school. It's cheaper, more well-rounded, and has placement people who actually care for you to get a good job.
Re:CCNA the ebay way (Score:3, Informative)
Well From Experience a MCSA/E A+/CCNA/NET+/RHCE (Score:5, Informative)
A+ - Everyone and is brother does have it. So get it anyway. One book and one week studying. Took the tests back to back. Shows you have some basic hardware knowledge. Cause hardware and software knowledge don't exactly walk hand in hand.
Net+ - Another easy one but really good in the sense of getting you up to speed on networking essentials. Subnetting, IP, the language and eqipment.
Linux + - Learn the fundementals of Linux - Pass the test. Good starting block for your RHCE.
RHCE- Do I need to explain this one? Red Hat is the industry standard Linux at the moment.
AS for the MS stuff. It is good to have the hands on experience and the classes as well. the 2000 and net stuff is not all that easy. The 4.0 was a walk in the park. Professional and server are easy exams. But AD and the other ones are a bitch because they expect you to have experience with the product. And the exams are adaptive, very hard to teach the test with these. And also whose fault is it if you but cheat sheets?
I am a fairly good Linux Admin, and a Fairly good Linux admin. I do not code. Don't want to. I just like keeping the highways a rolling. I don't care what you drive on them.
But I will say this. A good Linux admin will not be a good windows admin and vice versa. Because both will be predisposed to see all bad in the opposite product. I look at windows and linux for the respective uses of each. Do not tie yourself down with one. Stay off of OS bandwagons. Learn as much as you can about both. Or any OS you can.
I find myself time and time again sitting in the middle of the fence. My linux pals who dog Windows cause, they ***gasp*** cant admin it, and are too proud to ask someone or check MSDN. Or the Windows bunch who are stuck on reinstall when something craps out.
Puto
Well.. (Score:3, Informative)
More to the point, though, is that hiring in IT is practically at a standstill right now, and it's not limited to Silicon Valley. As technology progresses, people are learning to do the job with fewer people. Five years ago, you'd figure one IT guy to support about 30 seats. Now it's more like one person per 70-90 seats. And the inrush of people during the bubble years means that the supply/demand balance is incredibly out of whack. My old boss in SF was the best I've ever worked for, he has the best connections you could have out there, 15+ years of big name experience, and he's been out of work for 18 months. So right now, it doesn't matter what you have on your resume, if you're not currently working, or don't know somebody who's hiring, it's going to be incredibly hard to get a job in IT. I wouldn't spend a nickle of my own money getting certified, because right now it just isn't going to help. A lot of the ads you see posted are just there so the hiring manager can say he did a thorough search, but odds are he already knows who he wants to hire.
Re:CCNA the Software Simulator Way (Score:5, Informative)
There are some things you will only learn by having hand on experience with an actual router in your hands. Back in the day, it seemed like all the classes and training were using the 2501 for testing. I wanted to pipe in and mention a very good software simulator of a small LAN environment.
http://www.boson.com/netsim/
Ive used this software, and it is really good. You can drag and drop different routers and connect them up through swtiches or serial cables and run through all the commands of setting up a connection. Setup RIP, IGRP static routes, etc.. It feels very much like being logged in to a cisco router.
It's all about the Benjies. (Score:2, Informative)
The couple of classes I've had from Sun have been quite good. Some hands on on equipment that I don't own myself at clean facilities with knowlegable instructors. If you want Linux training, probably the easiest/best place to get it is from Red Hat. They also have a site in NYC, in the financial district, and they provide lunch every day (very cool). Their classes also have hands on labs, but the equipment isn't anything that you wouldn't have at your own house. They teach their classes on PCs. Red Hat's site is Red Hat Leaning Services [redhat.com]
Going to the product manufacturer is usually the best way to get top notch training, I'm just using Sun and Red Hat as examples, they have been the ones that I was most happy with. They, product manufacturers, hire instructors who are familiar with the product and who can answer a fair amount (maybe even all) of your questions. And unlike CBT, can provide alternative explanations when the one they use just doesn't get through to you.
The big problem with going to these classes is that, while good, they can be prohibitively expensive. If this is a limiting factor for you, then someone above suggested Community College. I think that this was an excellent suggestion. They are far less expensive, but it's been my experience that the instruction is not always as good.
-Runz
Shameless Employer-Promotion (Score:2, Informative)
As an instructor for a little-training-company-that could, TechSkills [techskills.com], I agree with much that's been said about the glut of CompTIA (and Microsoft, for that matter) certified individuals. However, it should be very clear that the glut is irrelevant to HR depts.
To answer the original question, I refer you to the link above. ;)
I'm currently based in Phoenix, but TechSkills has thirty-some branches around the states, and, of course, distance-learning options.
And, yes, we do more than just 'teach to the exams'.
-ELf: A+, Network+, i-Net+, Linux+, CCNA, MCIWA, MCSAGo to the source (Score:3, Informative)
Sun's education program does have some downsides. First and formost, the classes are expensive, ranging from 2000 to 4000 dollaris. Second, Sun's certification exams suck, and some of them appear to have be written by people with a very poor grasp of the english language; some of the questions on the Solaris 7 Exam part II were so poorly written that none of the answers made sense.
If you want to try Sun, check out http://suned.sun.com.
One more piece of advice, many people in training are there because of new project ramp-ups, and have employers who are hiring, so take resumes on paper, floppy, and CD.
Re:Community college? (Score:4, Informative)
--Make sure the class outlines are detailed. If they are not, then that is a major red flag, indicating that people in the know are not involved in the creation of the course.
--Search for the name of an instructor on the web. You never know, and since Google will pick up a lot of newsgroup archives, you might just find out that a particular instructor is very active in the developer community.
--Does the community college have decent labs? If "good" money has been spent on buying equipment, then good money might have been spent on instructors.
--Email the instructor. Why not? They don't make money off of you directly, so just ask them some well thought out questions and weigh their responses.
On an aside, training/certification can help but don't forget that user's groups, mailings lists, and other forums are filled with people such as yourself looking to get hired and those looking to hire. Don't turn your back on the very technology you are looking to work in! (-:
Re:Check The Resume (Score:5, Informative)
>resume.
Best resume advice I've seen: http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/2000-7/f
Re:Cisco (Score:1, Informative)
Hi. I'm a trainer (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not *really* a trainer. I'm a guy who has a whole bunch of certifications. I have about six years of experience as a consultant-type, but I'm doing training now. Training means not have to look for work every x months, and I like that.
Here's the deal: Nearly as I can tell, there are about three different types of training out there. There is "diploma mill" training, the MCSE in 2-weeks or your money back bullshit. Maybe that works for smoeone who is already an MCSE. It doesn't help the guy who hasn't touched a PC in three years.
There's also "softball" training. Teach straight out of a book, do gentle lessons, and hope students are smart enough to pick up the slack with their own motivation. For some people, a step in the right direction is good enough. Mostly, though, training of this sort isn't going to lead to long-term retention of information, and it's of dubious use for certification exams. I started out teaching this way.
The last way to teach is never-ending lab exercises. This requires students motivated and interested in the material (i.e. do the reading beforehand) and a LOT of time. You'll retain more knowledge of a complex process if you've actually carried it out. The important thing an instructor can add here is overarching understanding of the process. Following a recipie online is great for getting the job done, but a good teacher can explain WHY things are the way they are, and deeper understanding should hopefully transfer to general success on these exams, even if you miss a point here or there. Of course, if you're OK with the "big picture", you can probably get just as far in the lab you have set up at home. I don't always have time to do the labs I want during class, but I always make time before and/or after for extra lab work, on top of normal classroom time. It helps my students a lot.
Of course, every training place will tell you their stuff is hands on. That certainly isn't the case. Ask to sit in on a class or two. If you're paying $2000 for a class, they shouldn't have any problem with that. Judge for yourself.
Finally, places that trumpet unusually high pass-rates are probably doing something slightly unethical to get them. I've heard stories. I'm sure others have, too.
Whatever the subject, if you're paying for a class, what you're paying for is a knowledgable instructor and adequate facilities. Those are things you can't judge without some first-hand experience.
Other things: Seems to me that the most respected IT certs all have a hands-on component. Master CNE, RHCE, most Cisco exams. Something to keep in mind when you become the 1,000,000th person to pass 70-210.
A great generalist IT guy is an awesome resource to have, but I always tell my students that it's a hard row to hoe. I always suggest to my students that becoming an expert in a subject besides Windows Support or hardware repair, will probably get them more attention within the field than bog-standard A+/N+/MCSE certs.
Re:CCNA the ebay way (Score:4, Informative)
At the basic level, you need at least 3 switches. One for location A, one for location B, and one to act as a 'Core' switch. At that point, you can start playing with VLANS.
Add a 2500 or 2600 series router and you can do 'router on a stick' routing between thoes VLANS. Add another router or two, and you can play with OSPF and EIGRP.
For the cost of all this crap, just spend $149 and get Boson Router Sim. It has 5002 switches with catalyst OS and 1900 series switches with IOS. It also has 800, 2500, and 2600 series routers.
Boson supports most of the commands and will even spit out a config file that can be uploaded into an actual Cisco router. You can also use it to buils HUGE networks. One of the things I do is give newbies a Class C block and have them allocate it for 20+ routers, 10+ switches, and 3 or 4 workstations over several VLANS. Usually makes them tear their hair out.
And the best part is that Boson can be had for less than the price of an e-bay router.
You just can't beat the training you get at... (Score:1, Informative)
NYLXS [nylxs.com]
The Gnu/Linux 1 class, the Unix 1, class, the Perl 1 class, and others have all been superb. You are being taught by instructors who know what they teach, in an active, hands on environment. It is backed by an active mailing list, a learn list, an announcements list, Inservices that present various free software services and applications that are free to attend, business demos [nylxs.com], and more. Richard Stallman has dropped in on classes, inservices, and other events from time to time, and David Sugar (Bayonne telephony Project)and others have held inservices and dropped in on meetings and classes as well.
The philosophy behind NYLXS (which is in the process of becomming a non-profit entity) is that open source is useful and productive, should be promoted by everyone, and can only grow larger. The funds raised from classes will go to promoting free/open source software.
If you look at the mass push behind free/open source software in other countries, in companies and schools across America, and in various agencies, their eyes are either slowly being opened, or are being jammed wide open at the benefits for running free/open source software. It can no longer be denied that gnu/linux has a huge momentum behind it, and must be a part of everyone's toolbox from now on.
NYLXS teaches the nitty-gritty of what you need to know to get the job done. You can take individual classes, or take an entire program and get discounts. At the end of several classes, you will have a working server, which can be setup to do anything you want, apache, mail, file/print, etc. You will also have the knowledge you need to go forward as a sys admin, or whatever other computer related job you choose, or for just your own knowledge.
They have Gnu/Linux 1/2, Unix 1/2, Perl 1/2, C, Gimp, Open Office, and other classes as well. Every class is taught by someone who uses the software daily as their main operating system/application, and they may be using it as the main software in their profession, or they may be using it as an aid to pick up where other software falls flat on its face.
NYLXS [nylxs.com] also has a free software chamber of commerce, where they provide solutions for businesses using free/open source software, and which also gives the students who go through the training an opportunity to obtain employment, allows the students to make important business contacts, etc.
NYLXS [nylxs.com] will be present and have a booth at LinuxWorld [tradeshownews.com] in NYC. NYLXS membership was instrumental at the events that occured on July 17, 2002 at the Commerce Committee hearing for drm/other controls [nylxs.com], which had the direct effect of stalling the legislation, and opening up the process to what was previously a good 'ol boys process of enacting legislation behind closed doors.
Any sys admin, or anyone maintaining computers in a large user environment who does not know how to use and administer Gnu/Linux systems will be at a handicap when trying to sell themselves. I am aware of the environments of many companies, and for the larger (more than 10-15 seats) companies, they are virtually all experimenting with gnu/linux servers at least at a minimal level. They are just getting their feet wet at some of these companies, but as they become more familiar, and as they realize the benefits, they will become more and more involved with gnu/linux.
If you only know ms products, and are having trouble finding work, you must realize why. If you only know free software, you will also have trouble finding work. But sys admins and other techies that know both, and are comfortable with both, will have an easier time under any possible scenario.
Check out NYLXS [nylxs.com], especially the pages under the Free Software Institute [nylxs.com], and see what they offer. Their prices are very good, you get a working computer as part of the classes (which is used in the classes), you get access to numerous distributions, and you get a first rate education that is not taught to any test.
Complete one of the sequences, and then study the questions that are on the LPI exam [lpi.org], and you shouldn't have any problem passing the LPI exam when you are done with an NYLXS sequence.
SANS? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:CCNA the ebay way (Score:3, Informative)
However!
Not everyone is dumb enough to try and work for a large company. Try reading "What color is my parachute" for tips on turning your knowledge into a job.
Here is how it breaks down:
You do a resume. You send it to HR at $SomeBigCompany. The guy reading it has a thick stack on his desk. The first thing he does is throw out anything that looks unprofessional. Pink stationary, non-standard paper size, handwritten or large fonts, anything that does not conform to the 'standard' resume format is tossed.
Next, he does a grep (or just looks) for MCSE, CCNA, A+, Masters, Batchlor, RHCE, CCNP, CCIE, etc... All the files are sorted in order from most certifications to least. Usually the top 10% are thrown away due to 'overqualification'.
Next, he does a prelim interview. This is to ask some basic questions and see if you fit into the 'company culture'. Anyone not wearing a conservative suit, nice tie, and SHINY shoes is never considered. Remember, this man knows nothing about technology.
Anyone who gets past this guy goes to a second interview with the boss of the section you will work in. This guy is most likely a program manager. He know something about what you will do, but is not an expert. He just wants to get a feel for wheather or not you will show up on time, work hard, and stay late when needed.
There is an alternative. Look for small companies. Call the local cable company and ask for a tour of the network shop. Geeks love to show off their stuff (clear cases, open source, etc..). Call some consulting firms and ask who does the installs for their clients. Get into a local computer/linux/d&d group and ask around.
You will find that other geeks tend to work in the tech sector. They will know if there is an opening in their company. They can get you directly through to the project manager. If you display competence, he will probably hire you.
Once you learn the networking system of getting hired, you will never do the whole resume trolling thing agian...
Re:Why would you want that? (Score:2, Informative)
OK
The Gnu/Linux 1 class, the Unix 1, class, the Perl 1 class, and others have all been superb. You are being taught by instructors who know what they teach, in an active, hands on environment. It is backed by an active mailing list, a learn list, an announcements list, Inservices that present various free software services and applications that are free to attend, business demos [nylxs.com], and more. Richard Stallman has dropped in on classes, inservices, and other events from time to time, and David Sugar (Bayonne telephony Project)and others have held inservices and dropped in on meetings and classes as well.
The philosophy behind NYLXS (which is in the process of becomming a non-profit entity) is that open source is useful and productive, should be promoted by everyone, and can only grow larger. The funds raised from classes will go to promoting free/open source software.
If you look at the mass push behind free/open source software in other countries, in companies and schools across America, and in various agencies, their eyes are either slowly being opened, or are being jammed wide open at the benefits for running free/open source software. It can no longer be denied that gnu/linux has a huge momentum behind it, and must be a part of everyone's toolbox from now on.
NYLXS teaches the nitty-gritty of what you need to know to get the job done. You can take individual classes, or take an entire program and get discounts. At the end of several classes, you will have a working server, which can be setup to do anything you want, apache, mail, file/print, etc. You will also have the knowledge you need to go forward as a sys admin, or whatever other computer related job you choose, or for just your own knowledge.
They have Gnu/Linux 1/2, Unix 1/2, Perl 1/2, C, Gimp, Open Office, and other classes as well. Every class is taught by someone who uses the software daily as their main operating system/application, and they may be using it as the main software in their profession, or they may be using it as an aid to pick up where other software falls flat on its face.
NYLXS [nylxs.com] also has a free software chamber of commerce, where they provide solutions for businesses using free/open source software, and which also gives the students who go through the training an opportunity to obtain employment, allows the students to make important business contacts, etc.
NYLXS [nylxs.com] will be present and have a booth at LinuxWorld [tradeshownews.com] in NYC. NYLXS membership was instrumental at the events that occured on July 17, 2002 at the Commerce Committee hearing for drm/other controls [nylxs.com], which had the direct effect of stalling the legislation, and opening up the process to what was previously a good 'ol boys process of enacting legislation behind closed doors.
Any sys admin, or anyone maintaining computers in a large user environment who does not know how to use and administer Gnu/Linux systems will be at a handicap when trying to sell themselves. I am aware of the environments of many companies, and for the larger (more than 10-15 seats) companies, they are virtually all experimenting with gnu/linux servers at least at a minimal level. They are just getting their feet wet at some of these companies, but as they become more familiar, and as they realize the benefits, they will become more and more involved with gnu/linux.
If you only know ms products, and are having trouble finding work, you must realize why. If you only know free software, you will also have trouble finding work. But sys admins and other techies that know both, and are comfortable with both, will have an easier time under any possible scenario.
Check out NYLXS [nylxs.com], especially the pages under the Free Software Institute [nylxs.com], and see what they offer. Their prices are very good, you get a working computer as part of the classes (which is used in the classes), you get access to numerous distributions, and you get a first rate education that is not taught to any test.
Complete one of the sequences, and then study the questions that are on the LPI exam [lpi.org], and you shouldn't have any problem passing the LPI exam when you are done with an NYLXS sequence.
Specialize (Score:3, Informative)
For instance, I write about 95% of my code these days in Python. I'm really good at Python. Yeah, I know, a good programmer can learn any language quickly, and knowledge of a language doesn't make you a good programmer. But it makes a big difference for productivity. It also means that you can get more attention in those jobs that require your specific skill. My experience in other languages is very important to me, but there's another kind of experience that you can only achieve with expertise.
The jack of all trades is sometimes called for. But the jack of all trades must rely on networking -- because there's a lot of them out there. Sure, some are better than others, but you're still just an IT handyman. You'll need to distinguish yourself with something other than your resume.
The specialist may have only a small pool of jobs they are right for. But they are very right for those jobs. You can be good, you can attain real expertise in your field, people outside of your workplace might even know who you are. If you aren't good at networking through personal connections, then specialization is the only way you'll become networked.
Of course, you're betting on the technology, and if you bet long enough you'll always lose. Becoming a Tcl expert a while ago would have probably worked well, but now it's tanked. The mainframe specialists are all having hard times now. Eventually you'll become out of date, so you have to know when to jump ship for another specialty.
New York area training (Score:2, Informative)