Mandrake Appealing to Community, Again 687
An anonymous reader writes "It seems that MandrakeSoft's short-term financial problem is worse than was thought. A new page on the Mandrake web site says: 'Everyone who is concerned with the company's future is encouraged to read and distribute the following message. In order to reach the next release, MandrakeSoft currently needs to raise cash, and quickly complete the Increase of Capital.' Darn, and I thought they were almost over this hump. Looks like a good time to help recruit Mandrake supporters for the Club."
Pardon? (Score:2, Insightful)
Let them go (Score:2, Insightful)
And frankly, after having bought a copy of Mandrake Linux, and being very unsatisfied with the support, I don't really think they should survive.
Mandrake: Embarrassment (Score:3, Insightful)
Mandrake should either go non-profit so they can beg for money without being an embarrassment, or shut the doors.
I have an idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Its not the responsibility of the consumer to buy their products and then donate money. Either a) raise the price of distro box or b) increase sales of the box by making it more appealing (subscription to slashdot(hah), intro to linux book, good manual, cd full of games, etc).
Re:Thinning the herd (Score:3, Insightful)
Damn straight. They follow too closely in the shadow of RedHat and have no way to break even, much less dream of a profit. So appeal to the community, again, and again. It annoys me that to download Mandrake they try to force you to join Club Mandrake.
If I want to join a club, it isn't going to be Mandrake. I use Mandrake, and I actually like it quite a bit. If I were to pay for anything it'd be RedHat though. A company that can at least give me a return on what I pay for. Someone else pointed out that they should go NPO or close the doors, and they were right. I'll donate to an NPO, I buy things from a company. What do I stand to gain from Mandrake by buying? Nothing. I can just as easily use Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, or even *BSD. I'm pretty sure a lot of the target market feels the same as me.
It's too bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
The third one tends to work the best. The problem is, I think, that many of the target consumers of this software don't feel like paying for it. The third one avoids this problem by requiring that you pay for it, or that you spend more time than anyone would reasonably spend trying to make your own version.
In the future, all open source projects may be forced to move to the third model. Not that this is such a bad thing, considering the only people who won't be able to get it are the people who caused the change in business model to occur in the first place.
Just my thoughts.
Re:well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Who knows, Mandrake-the-distribution may live after MandrakeSoft dies. If it's that good of a distro (I wouldn't know, never tried) volunteers will keep it going.
Re:Thinning the herd (Score:5, Insightful)
You've failed to make the argument about why saving Mandrake is "the right thing".
Not everything is worth saving, and particularly not everything with good intentions. Why does Mandrake offer that is so great that it's worth dumping $4M into? And note that that $4M is not going into new development -- it's to resolve outstanding debts from all the wasted money of the past.
Sigh. (Score:5, Insightful)
By my watch, with the amount of money that Mandrake has already spent, they should have the absolute best commercial distribution of Linux available. There should be no question as to the performance of Mandrake compared to any other commercial version. They should be kicking ass and taking names. Unfortunately, the only ass they're kicking is the collective behind of the Linux community, and the only names they're taking are followed by credit card numbers.
Meanwhile, we're a non-profit company that produces the absolute best-of-class general-purpose audio compression codec in the world, proprietary or otherwise. We've been through recessions and poor economic times before; Hopefully we'll live through this one, too. Everybody and their brother has a Linux distribution; Why don't you support the smaller projects that actually make a difference?
Emmett Plant [mailto]
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation [xiph.org]
Re:Thinning the herd (Score:4, Insightful)
In the interests of promoting diversity in Linux choices, I can see giving a few dollars to help an otherwise viable company get over a particular rough patch.
But this doesn't seem to be the case here -- rather, it's beginning to look more and more like Mandrake will never turn a profit. This brings up the spectre of the community supporting a supposedly for-profit company via donations, which just isn't realistic. So it's not a question of the "right thing", but one of eceonomic reality.
Re:Pardon? (Score:2, Insightful)
Very different than a non-profit.
This is *not* the Prisoner's Dilemma... (Score:2, Insightful)
What this all boils down to is you have to decide how many chances you feel Mandrake should get. How many times will you give money to an entity that, although they make a nice product, seems incapable of balancing gains and expenditures. This is merely a business decision, one which occurs daily. The strong survive, the weak die out.
Re:Boxed Sets (Score:2, Insightful)
Why aren't they making money?
People like me who download it for free and install it on the half-dozen machines within their reach are a loss of market share, but there are millions of new PCs sold each year. You would think a small company could make a few bucks on a tiny part of that market.
Re:Thinning the herd (Score:4, Insightful)
The real difference here is that RedHat isn't counting on sales of CDs or, worse, the altruism of the community to make money.
Instead, they have displayed good business sense and are creating sell-able services surrounding Linux, such as training and subscriptions to time-saving services (using up2date anytime is worth $60 a server, IMO). This is working out really well for them -- they're suddenly in the black.
If Mandrake can't do the same, well, that's life. They need to either develop a viable for-profit business plan (if they want to remain a for-profit business) or work out another way to survive (go non-profit or get aquired).
That's just reality.
You've got to be kidding me.... (Score:2, Insightful)
By March 2001, the results of this strategy showed a marked decrease in income, while expenses increased by 400%. At its worst point, MandrakeSoft's "burn rate" was approximately 1.5 ME/month ($1.5M/month). As a result, it was soon decided to remove this experienced management team and to refocus the company's activities strictly toward Linux.
So, because they've made poor business decisions in the past (to include hiring bad management and throwing away money) we're supposed to support them? Give me a break! Sheez, by this logic, someone should just pay off my credit cards and give me a house (any takers?).
Feel free to mark me as troll.
Re:well... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you like Mandrake and believe in Linux then the only way to show it is by actually supporting the products to believe are valuable. Free software, unless you mean free-beer, doesn't alleviate the producers of a product or service from the realities of economics. If you do not believe Mandrake is viable, despite liking their products, then don't purchase a MandrakeClub membership or box. If you do believe in the products, then support them.
I've got a shiny new Mandrake 9 PowerPack, and I'm happy with it. I've replaced MS Office with StarOffice. Those who value the products should do the same, and those who don't value the products should not. I think Mandrake has a chance to get back into the black, and I've voted with my $.
How I help Mandrake (Score:5, Insightful)
Good question: Just what does mandrake offer? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually they do a hell of a lot for the community and it is clear that most of the negativity here is coming from people that know nothing of mandrakesoft.
1. Mandrake pays supports many full time developers who work on open source software such as KDE, PHP-nuke; the linux kernel, CUPS.
2. New mandrake distributions are always available for download immediately (usually before the box sets).
3. The mandrake-linux distribution is all free and opensource software.
The real problem is perhaps that they should only offer iso images to club members. I've been using the mandrake distribution since I started using free & opensource software several years ago and I never bought a copy. I was never interested in a box set. The mandrake club has given me and others like me the opportunity to pay for the work done providing us with a distribution we like.
Unfortunately, it seems that amongst all the people who happily use the mandrake distribution iso downloads, there aren't enough that feel a moral obligation to support mandrake by joining the club. This is unfortunate - dispite all the heckling here, their distribution is the most popular of the desktop orientated ones, and in my opinion, rightly so.
Classic example. (Score:3, Insightful)
Read the article, folks (Score:2, Insightful)
Mandrake's plea is directed at people who have downloaded Mandrake's products for free and liked them. Clearly, not everyone belongs in that category. But, it's OK for Mandrake to ask people to give back something for the wonderful stuff which Mandrake has done for us.
Yes, Mandrake recently screwed up people's preorders badly, including mine. That's because they were forced to lay off a lot of people, in order to shrink their losses. They have a chance to be profitable, but they need a little help.
How this is different than LWN.net asking for help is beyond me (although I'm sure there are plenty of smart-alecks waiting in line to tell me). Mandrake provides free goods and services, and all they're asking for is that people who have benefited from them will consider giving something back. After Mandrake is gone, then SuSE will be the next one to go under. Then, we can all rejoice and run Red Hat.
Even Red Hat has only JUST NOW broken even, and they are the ones with the inside track to all the enterprise installations.
Why not give Mandrake a little help, so they can make it to the break-even point? If you haven't checked out the new Mandrake Club, it's worth a look. The multi-language support is truly extraordinary. I compare it to slashdot, in terms of a paradigm shift.
I'm a standard club member, and I purchased the DVD for the last release, so I think I've done my part to support my favorite distribution. Have you?
Re:Mandrake: Embarrassment (Score:4, Insightful)
I have downloaded and used isos for:
Mandrake 8.0
Mandrake Single Network Firewall
Mandrake 8.1
Mandrake Corporate Server
Mandrake 9.0
At work everytime I have a server problem there is usually an easy Mandrake solution.
At home I have used the most recent version of Mandrake for the last 3 or 4 releases. Yet to date I have not paid a dime.
Well today is the day I will pony up and stop being a complete leach. Sadly I can't afford much 'cause this is an expensive time of year.
Re:You people are incredible (Score:2, Insightful)
And your comment about market philosophy bullshit was unwarrented. There is a demand for quality Linux software. Mandrake is not it.
I couldn't agree more (Score:5, Insightful)
So people, if you are feeling the urge to donate to free software, give it to the Xiph guys. No matter what OS you use, OGG is available to you, and it's GOOD at what it does. If Mandrake dies, well, then they die and we are limited to only the other million and a half Linux distros. If Xiph dies, we don't get updates to Vorbis, and none of the rest of their projects come to be.
Re:Pardon? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm reminded of the number of products I've really enjoyed over the years, and can't get anymore because no-one even cared to write in, or buy the products. Worse, that which replaces it on the shelf, is often not as good or worse. I've had to settle for "other", over the years, more than I care to list.
Sorry I don't, yet, have an informed opinion on Mandrake 9.0, as it just arrived in the mail a couple days ago (yeah, I did buy it because I do believe in supporting Linux distros with more than just words) and I'll be installing it during the next few days.
I've had RedHat and wasn't overwhelmed with their product, it's ok, but I'd like to try another and picked Mandrake based upon positive user reviews.
It was shipped late and I just got a very nice letter from Mandrake appologizing for the delay (which was actually only about 3 business days to process, not a big deal.)
giving them money is exactly what you shouldn't do (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not charity. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you haven't used Mandrake, or you've bought products from them in the past, then I don't think their request for support is directed at you.
What's all this then? (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazon doesnt give you free products (Score:3, Insightful)
Mandrakesoft gives you free access to download software, they freely allow a programmer to work on KDE and the Linux Kernel, they freely give you a website, Mandrake Expert, Mandrake Forum etc,
You cant donate some money to keep these free services? I guess you dont really want them.
If PS2 were giving out free games why not donate $60 once in a great while?
Why Mandrake is worth saving. (Score:4, Insightful)
Numerous polls show that Mandrake is the favorite desktop distribution by a wide margin, so there are clearly a lot of people who use Mandrake and like it, and if Mandrake goes out of business, they're all going to be moving to SuSE or Red Hat. Clearly, there are reasons that so many people opted to use Mandrake in the first place, so SuSE and Red Hat are going to be a step down for many.
I am a standard member of the club, and I purchased the DVD set of Mandrake 9.0, because it was worth paying for.
Re:Pardon? (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's say I go to Dell, as many people do, for a new computer system. I don't get Microsoft Windows because I like it. I get MS Windows because OEMs have agreements with Microsoft, and it's not possible at present to get a home system from a major OEM with Linux pre-installed. IMHO, people don't spend their money on products they like: people spend their money on products which have been well marketed. ie, one of the reasons why Microsoft, and not a Linux based OS is installed on the majority of personal computer systems around the world.
Re:Are you French? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OK, I Installed Mandrake (Score:3, Insightful)
To answer the question: nedit and xemacs are two pretty decent GUI text editors that run on Linux. nedit is probably easier to learn if you're coming from the Windows world, but if I were you I'd put the time into learning xemacs, since it's descended from emacs, which is one of the standard text editors in the Unix world.
Also do at least learn a little bit about vi (type "man vi" at any Terminal prompt) since it's a) very simple for quick, in-place editing, and b) on just about every distro of every type of Unix machine.
Re:You people are incredible (Score:5, Insightful)
No, its a company that has a crappy business plan and is not making any money. A company asking for cash donations so it can survive a little longer is one of the dummest things I have ever heard. Maybe they should rethink their business plan instead(what a strange idea- a business that actually makes money without donations?). You are not helping out the "movement" at all- Linux does not rely on Mandrake for survival. If you want to donate your money, that is fine, but you should realize that by donating you are just throwing your cash down the toilet to enable a crappy business to survive another week.
And you should leave Microsoft, DRM, and all of the other
Re:Pardon? (Score:4, Insightful)
And if you think the reason Microsoft dominates the desktop is marketing, you need to slow down and take an honest look at the situation. Marketing never hurts, but having an OS that can be run (and maintained) by a slobbering idiot doesn't hurt either. See also: Apple.
CashFlow Problems != Poor Biz Model (Score:2, Insightful)
Lot's of good companies go out of business because they didn't have the cash at the right time. Their business model is strong and they have friends in high places (WalMart?) to make them a success.
Don't knock the software (Score:2, Insightful)
I've been a loyal Mandrake user now for a few years now. While Mandrake has put out a few substandard releases, Mandrake has also produced a lot of good work over time. With the latest releases of RedHat and Mandrake, Mandrake still installs okay, Redhat doesn't. Perhaps they are *all* bad.
Also, Mandrake has employed a lot of open source folks over time. If you are using Linux today, chances are you've probably run more than one or two lines of code that were written by someone in that "crappy company."
I'm tired of Mandrake going to the well too. Still, if open source software has a chance, it needs a way to pay people. Sure, we all donate some of our free time, and that's great. Producing a world class distribution isn't *only* a free time affair though. Notice that the most popular distributions are not maintained by a bunch of guys in their living rooms in sweats.
It is fine if you don't want to donate, but I don't see why we need to be "anti-company". Mandrake made some mistakes in the past and they had some bad management. They are trying to pull themselves out of it though. A negative review on Slashdot pulls a lot of weight with some folks. Hopefully when you anyone posts they aren't simply letting their "hurray open source, down with the companies!" mentality get the better of them.
-M
Re:It's too bad... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wrong. Most custom software is created to solve a problem. For it to help your competitor they would have to have the same problem. So you have to ask yourself -- what is the bigger competitive advantage? Solving your problem with the chance that it may help your competitor if they ever have the same problem, or continuing on with the problem, in hopes that your competitor has the same problem eventually?
Re:Pardon? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Donated heaps of cash to KDE developers to encourage development and keep people fed.
2. Open sourced all their software they've created in-house in order to benefit the community.
3. Provided free downloads of their distro from day one.
I'm sure there are dozens more, but first and foremost, they work for the community.
Re:Sigh. Another bitter programer (Score:3, Insightful)
What situation? The situation that a company that has bled millions of dollars is once again asking for more cash from their captive audience? You're right, I am powerless to bail out MandrakeSoft. As far as 'following a similar route,' I doubt it. We never had millions to burn in the first place, and it's never been our goal to start a company and turn a massive profit.
I cannot and will not feel sorry for any company that burns through insane amounts of money like MandrakeSoft has. Just because they sell Linux services does not mean they get special dispensation; When they opted to jump into the corporate fray, all bets were off. You compete, or you die. It is often vicious. It is often difficult. It is often unfair. But that's the game.
The Linux world will be a poorer place without Mandrake. This call for help was directed at the existing community of Mandrake users. If you do not want to support Mandrake, then don't. But don't use your position to degrade them and discourage others from supporting them. That makes you a very ugly person in my eyes.
Call me crazy, but this isn't the first time that MandrakeSoft has done this. I think it's irresponsible. Where are they spending this money? How are they going through this much cash, this quickly?
While you may be a huge fan of the Mandrake distribution, please understand that while they're a for-profit corporation, they're playing the for-profit game. When my phone bill comes, I don't ask my friends and family to help me pay it, just because I am a brilliant conversationalist. I have my own debts, I take on my own responsibilities. MandrakeSoft is acting like a college kid, calling home for pizza money.
Imagine if all companies did this. Wouldn't you find it extremely offensive if McDonald's employees came up to you during your meal, asking you to help them out with some of their expenses?
"Hi, how are you? I hope you're enjoying that Big Mac. You know, we work really hard on the Big Mac, and we'd like to continue making Big Macs for the next few years. Unfortunately, the current economy hasn't been too kind to us, and we're feeling a little less like Ronald, and more like Grimace."
You would find it irritating. You would find it annoying. You might not ever go back there again, and you'd tell your friends about it. I'm just asking you to consider the nice little diner down the street when you're tired of being shaken down by the clown.
Emmett Plant [mailto]
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation [xiph.org]
Re:Mandrake: Embarrassment (Score:1, Insightful)