Yet Another Exchange Killer?

jmertic writes "SuSE Linux now has the latest Exchange killer, but this time for Exchange Server. Openexchange Server is designed to be a drop in replacement for Exchange 5.5 users who don't want to pay the MS tax of going to Exchange 2000. They say it will be available mid November."

MAPI support?

[TheBracket]

I looked through the site, and could see no sign of native MAPI support - rather, you have the usual collection of IMAP, POP3, SMTP, etc. protocols. Many sites I look after would love to switch to a free Exchange replacement when they phase out their current 5.5 deployments - but if it doesn't support MAPI and seamlessly integrate with Outlook, they won't be interested.

It also seems to be missing a few of Exchange's better features: single instance message storage, (relatively) easy multi-site replication, deleted item retention, just to name a few.

Finally, who on Earth wants to put their Exchange server on their PDC? If this product doesn't integrate well with existing domains, I don't think that I have a single client who could actually use it!

Wait a minute.

[SlashChick]

This is being touted as an Exchange killer, yet it costs $1249 for 10 licenses?

I just looked up Exchange 2000 Server pricing. Assuming you're upgrading from Exchange 5.5, the base package for Exchange 2000 Server is $639 and the additional 5 licenses need to bring your server up to 10 licenses are $499, bringing your total to $1138.

You save $111 in license fees by upgrading to Exchange 2000 instead of buying this solution.

Here is where I got my prices for Exchange. [freesoftwareshipping.com] Note that I have no affiliation with this company and have never bought software there; I found them on a Google search.

So, if cost isn't the advantage here, what is? Exchange 2000 is pretty much guaranteed to have more features and support. I can't see why anyone would want to buy this product.

Re:MS Tax?

[jas79]

Didn't MS tax orginal aply to new computers which always came with a MS OS. even if you didn't want the OS, you still had to pay the license.

Drop-in: NOT

[jlv]

From the linked page:

The migration from MS Exchange 5.5 is possible without any difficulties.

But, if you go and read their detailed migration plan [suse.com] you'll see this is anything but drop-in. At least they come on-site to assist you in the process (you gotta get something for the extra $1K).

Re:Interesting use of "Open"

[bo-eric]

Taking a look at the "Features" page (of the "Article"), we see that the components Openexchange Server consists of are the following:

• Operating system: SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for ia32, Kernel 2.4.19
• Installation: graphical installation with YaST2
• SMTP mail server, mail transfer agent: Postfix 1.1.11
• IMAP mail delivery agent: Cyrus IMAP 2.1.9
• Web server: Apache 1.3.26
• LDAP server: OpenLDAP 2.1.4
• Integrated spam filter
• Samba PDC
• DHCP

Admittedly, the "Integrated spam filter" and "DHCP" parts are not specified and might be closed source, but that seems quite unlikely, IMHO. Every other component seems to be both open sourced and free. Am I missing the reason you concluded it was closed-source?

Some alternatives...

[jeroenb]

Am I saying its no good? No; we haven't seen it yet. It's not an Exchange replacement. It looks like Bynari.

Bynari however, does produce an actual replacement for Exchange, especially when coupled with the InsightConnector for Outlook [bynari.net].

Also, the former HP OpenMail now owned by Samsung and called Samsung Contact [samsungcontact.com] appears to support MAPI as well, so that could integrate with Outlook and have all those groupware/calendaring features.

And last, a Dutch company called ConnecTUX [connectux.com] has created a Linux-based server application called Team-Link [team-link.com] that integrates completely with Outlook and mimics all Exchange features. (Both sites in Dutch unfortunately.)

So plenty of alternatives. But I agree, this OpenExchange, is not one of them.

Re:Wait a minute.

[jas79]

that isn't right.

a)You are comparing a full version of a product with the upgrade version.
b) you need an OS to run exchange on.

taking the price of a full version of exchange and a full version of windows 2000. $644+$1200 =$1844

Re:Obvioulsy you've never used Exchange

[TedCheshireAcad]

I've run into this many times before with admins who come out of the MCSE mill. Unfortunately, there's no way to get your money back for Exchange/W2K once you've been ass reamed for it.

A good option that I've reccomended and implemented is phpGroupWare, which works really well for a small to medium size office that needs basic collaboration sofware.

kroupware

[fava]

The kroupware project [kroupware.org] and [slashdot.org] and [slashdot.org] is supposed to be exchange compatible as well as open source and free of those pesky licencing fees.

Scheduled completion by the end of the year.

Re:Wait a minute.

[MyHair]

From reading the other comments, Openexchange appears to have a 10 concurrent user license where Microsoft is per seat licensed.

So if you have 200 users but only 10 are connected to the server at any given time you'd need a 10-user Openexchange license or a 200-user MS Exchange license.

Plus MS server OSes require client licensing, too. Suse doesn't.

At work a group was all sold on using terminal services, so we have Win2k terminal servers running Citrix and administered through Novell DeFrame. There are 5 licenses (Windows server, Citrix, Novell user, Novell DeFrame and application) required for every user/application. Yikes! And some licenses are per seat and some are per concurrent user. I guess you could call it six licenses if you throw in the MS Windows client. Why not?

Easy now....

[kikensei]

Wow. SuSE doesn't have many supporters at /., eh? I've used SuSE mail servers 2 and 3 at a few consulting clients and find them to be well designed, solid products. THe price on Version 2 was a paltry $399 or some such, but SuSE learned that people don't buy a good thing unless its expensive, so they ratcheted the price of v.3 to $999. To install the SuSE server, you boot off the CD, accept all defaults and wait about 15 minutes. SuSE linux is installed jointly with the mail server, so from bare drive to fully functional takes about 20 minutes. Previous versions work well with IMAP or POP (i use IMAP) and come bundled with a a custom version of Arkeia backup software so you can slap on a tape drive and back up the server every night. Server has a great web mail client (much better in the Open Exchange version) and allows users to easily change their vacatin, auto-reply, forwarding prefs from a web config screen. Using outlook, Mozilla, Netscape or any LDAP compliant email client, you can pull all your user addresses off the server with a link to the server based LDAP directory, no server based config needed. I love this client for small business clients, and I will certainly give the latest a shot. Just 'cause the slashdot headline uses the term "exchange killer" doesn't mean you have to jump on SuSE like lemmings off a cliff. SuSE often touts "exchange-like groupware" functionality, only to reveal that its soley available via the web based client scheduler. That aside, they make good products. If you don't have time to configure your own, its worth a shot.

Re:Prediction: It will be available in november..

[zurab]

with POP3 functionality.

Everything else will be "Planned for the future" and they will be recruiting programmers.

C'mon now! They even state on the features page that The preferred protocol is IMAP.
Why predict when you can read and find out?
Features [suse.com] page says it will come with SMTP, Webmail, IMAP, LDAP, spam filter, Samba PDC, and DHCP. The features include E-mail (of course), scheduler, document management, project management, addressbooks, forums, knowledgebase, etc., etc., etc..

Not that you can't piece these software packages yourself, but this sounds like it will be an integrated solution for mail server like Exchange or Groupwise servers, integrated IMAP and web interface; basically they want people to have OpenExchange server interoperate with MS Exchange server (migrating period), and after you're sure everything is set up correctly as you want it then ditch [suse.com] the MS Exchange completely. All this will be configurable through YaST too.

To me it sounds very nice as an alternative and way cheaper too.

Dude you getting taxed!

[skeedlelee]

Requiring marketshare ehh...

Boy you're making this hard...

Actually the first one I checked falls into this category... DELL... Maybe you've heard of them?

True you can get servers from them with RedHat now but near as I can tell anything in their Dimensions line (aimed at home users) gives you the generous choice of Win XP Home, Pro, Home with Plus or Pro with Plus. Their workstation line also gives you the choice of Win 2000. Oooo...

That's what people are complaining about with the MS tax business. See for your self, choose any desktop or workstation line and try to configure it without windows... you can't!

Ironically, it's those without the 'significant marketshare' who will sell you a computer without charging you for windows. Fred's house o' parts will probably happily assemble you a computer sans OS no problemo.

Openmail/Contact

[Kagato]

HP Openmail now samsung contact has been doing this for years, and it's still very very tricky. There are two layers between the client and the servers. That's the application to driver layer (MAPI) and then the MAPI driver to server layer. HP/Samsung support Outlook by creating their own MAPI driver. It's hellish because MS changes things in every version.

Back when Exchange first came out MS touted MAPI has the great interopability driver. You could make non MS apps talk to exchange, and make MS apps talk to non MS servers. MS actuall had a book you could buy defining all specs for MAPI 1.0.

But then, they stopped publishing the book. And outlook started using undocumented calls.

Having said that I actually have looked at outlook to exchange traffic from a protocol caputure rig. (Kind'a neat, it had routers and CSU-DSU's on it, so we could simulate lower speed WAN conditions.) Oh my god, I could believe how much of a kludge is was. We'd watch the Client request all the heads from the inbox on start-up...and then watch in disbelief as it requested them AGAIN. The program wasted so much bandwidth. Later versions you'd see where MS started caching things. But then we'd notice sync issues.

Honestly, I don't know why companies like the outlook/exchange combo. It's not stable. It's message based calandering instead of Client-Server.

I guess they can try to emulate it via the server side, but really, it'a a lot work for a target that can move with every MAPI driver point release.

Make a better client, and .pst transfer utility.

Re:Not.

[alsta]

I detest MS Exchange for many reasons, but foremost because of MAPI. This package does not have MAPI specified, in which case it is correct of Telastyn to claim that it isn't a drop in replacement package.

MAPI is Outlook's native protocol which encapsulates calls to the Exchange server to retrieve/modify calendars, mailboxes and other objects.

This will probably be a nice mailserver-in-a-box deal and it's nice to see Linux vendors do these things. But to call it a drop in replacement sounds like a lot of hot air. PLEASE do not assume that I am in any way saying that Exchange is better. I am not. I am saying however, that vendors should take care in advertising more correctly. Otherwise they're proving to Exchange users that Exchange is the real deal and whatever is offered by SuSE is a joke.

The real Exchange killer

[Anonymous Coward]

Lotus Domino [lotus.com] is far more powerful than Exchange. In features, security and performance. The new Notes 6 [lotus.com] blows Outlook out of the water (as if R5 didn't already.)

Re:Some alternatives...

[spazimodo]

unfortunately Lotus hasn't released iNotes for Domino (R5) for Linux, so you really only get full Outlook functionality if you're running Domino on Windows (or OS/400 if you're a pimp). Supposedly R6 for Linux will include iNotes support, which would be killer.

Re:Interesting use of "Open"

[derF024]

open source != "free as in beer"

you can charge whatever you want for open source software, as long as you give the user the source code. since most large places with exchange servers list support as a requirement, the software wouldn't be complete if they just downloaded it. it may very well be that you're paying per seat for support.

Re:Wait a minute.

[derF024]

In an office with 100 users, you can expect the server to have zero users connected to it most of the time. You see, you don't stay connected to the server, you just poll for updates.

you may be thinking of protocols like pop, which polls occasionally. Imap and whatever exchange uses are connected to the server whenever the client is up. i worked in an office recently that ran exchange and used mailing lists for some inter-office annoucements. if you sent a message to one of these mailing lists, the message would instantly appear on every single screen in the office, making tons of simulatneous "new mail" chimes. unless the server pushes updates to the client, this would require an always-up connection to the mail server.

Re:MAPI support?

[Helen O'Boyle]

Whatever Fits,

It depends which MAPI you're talking about. Most apps folks know about the client-side functionality in Simple MAPI.

There is another version, called Extended MAPI. This does indeed support many server-side functions, for the creation of "message store providers" and "transport providers" and other such things that are part of the underlying plumbing of Exchange. It's definitely not a client-side-only technology.
--
* Helen *

Re:MAPI support?

[Helen O'Boyle]

AC,

Bzzzt, wrong answer! One more time: MAPI is NOT just a client-side technology.

I will say that server-side MAPI did have lots of brokenness back in its early days (circa mid-90's) -- things like server-side functions which displayed dialog boxes on the server and waited for someone to see them and press "OK" before the server process calling the MAPI function that errored would continue.

The point of MAPI is not just to make it easy for any client to send mail via a "common protocol" (did you mean API?). Another point is that a single client can select WHICH protocol to use, to send mail -- because it was developed back in the days before everyone decided SMTP/POP3/IMAP were the way to go. At least this is true of the versions of MAPI supplied with typical Exchange clients. (I believe Simple MAPI as supplied with vanilla Windows may be limited to God's Intended Email Protocols, SMTP/POP3/IMAP).

And being MAPI-free doesn't mean code is virus free, by any means.
--
* Helen *

Re:Where are the features?

[kc8apf]

You obviously didn't bother to read anything at the link provided. It offers a web interface, POP3 and IMAP (hence server-side storage), uses standard mailstores and OpenLDAP for the calandering and such. Recovery of mbox mailboxes is fairly trivial, however, I know nothing of recovering OpenLDAP (it seems to be Berkley DB so that should be possible). Accessing ex-employees info is simple, just reassign access to the OpenLDAP data and append the mbox to someone else. Heck, it's probably even an automated option in the web interface. As for mailbox recovery, if you delete a mbox, it's gone. That's why you have tape. I personally think it's stupid for Exchange to keep the data around after you delete someone. Talk about a long-term waste of space.

Re:Will It Work As A Drop-in For 5.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who mods these things up? Exchange 5.0 can absolutely be secured not to relay mail. It has fewer relay options than Exchange 5.5 (or Exchange 2000), but it is absolutely configurable as relay secure. For those who need 'more' SMTP relay functionality than Exchange 5.0 supplies, there are a number of solutions which don't require upgrading the Exchange version to achieve.

While anyone posting as 'The Turd Report' is likely a troll, I'm sure there's at least one slashdot reader who is going to take what he said as gospel and repeat the misinformation elsewhere.

If you think this post is +1 informative, keep your karma mod the parent down instead.

Re:Obvioulsy you've never used Exchange

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, Ximian Connector is just a kludge (a clever one), that uses Outlook Web Access (the web plugin to exchange) as a "behinds-the-scenes" proxy and via WebDav transfers stuff. I would think that it's performance would be greatly limited by this, plus it's limited to whatever OWA supports at any time. Any non-OWA exchange features wouldn't work

Re:Where are the features?

[Kunta Kinte]

Not to be rude, but this is hilarious.

FIrst no mention of single instance storage. The money you save in licensing you'll spend in increased storage costs.

Please tell me you're joking. How much space do you think the average email server saves using this? At any rate Cyrus supports this, see http://winnie.acsu.buffalo.edu/doc/overview.html#s ingleinstance [buffalo.edu] . Now I really wish people would stop bringing up that stupid buzzword.

Second where is the server based mail storage? Again the money you save on licensing you'll spend backing up mail downloaded on users' computers or home folders.

Thats a basic function of IMAP . You really should research this stuff.

Third, I didn't read anything about a web interface to read your mail like Outlook Web Access.

Ever heard of IMP or squirrellmail? http://www.squirrelmail.org/ [squirrelmail.org] How did you get moded +5??

Backups are the same scenario. Actually with Cyrus, you can simpley change the ACL on the mailbox to admin only if you want to prevent access and not delete it. Cyrus has it's entire admin functionality exposed as a PERL module so that you can script the server directly to do what the hell you want when a employee is terminated.

OpenLDAP is just as easy to back up. A simple LDIF dump, or copy the db files.

Both these packages are rock solid. I mean months and months with absolutely *zero* downtime, except for upgrades, and even then with failover the users never notices a thing. I've managed several. Including Cyrus in an ISP environment.

+5 ??!! LOL

Re:Source code license?

[root_42]

I don't understand what the fuzz is all about. Yast is not that great a tool that I would say everyone has to use it. The source code for Yast is there, and you are allowed to modify it as you wish -- with one condition: you have to label this version as a modified Yast-version. So no big deal! Try to focus on what SuSE has done for the OpenSource-community: They fund a lot of the ALSA-project development (Jaroslav Kysela), they heavily pushed the development of XFree86 including writing of drivers for until then unsupported cards, porting Linux to the s390 and much more. They also employ a couple of the KDE core developers (Waldo Bastian et al.).

Re:Prediction: It will be available in november..

[Anonymous Coward]

SuSE is a European (German) company. They have done a lot of good work for Linux. Of course they are commercial. The recognize that to survive they need to sell.
Who cares that nobody in BC, Canada has heard of them? Maybe they do care themselves, they could be able to expand their market. I don't care, I have used their products for years.

Bynari is already there!

[internet-redstar]

The combination of Bynari Insight Server and the Insight Connector (who come bundled) gives exactly the Exchange replacement needed.

Above the cost advantage, the following advantages are there:
- easy backup/restore: as everything is stored in IMAP folders (also contacts/calender info,...) individual mails or user accounts can be restored using normal filesystem backup/restore utilities. With Exchange everything is stored in 1 big black box file making it VERY, VERY hard to restore that email the CEO accidently deleted (you need to restore an entire Exchange server to another machine)
- high performance
- no per server user limit (I believe 2500 users is a hardcoded maximum in Exchange)
- runs not only on Intel hardware but also on PPC and Mainframe (interesting for big organisations)
- integrated antivirus software (Bynari ships with RAV)
- integrated Realtime Blacklist (www.mailabuse.org [mailabuse.org])
- Linux based (security, stability, performance, cost)
- Easy server clustering and replication with standard Linux tools (ultramonkey, rsync,...)

What isn't there yet:
- integrated webmail (but you can do that quickly yourself)
- user authentication through Active Directory (will come)
- Security holes ;)

Re:Bynari is already there!

[internet-redstar]

almost forgot to mention that appearantly this SUSE development uses the same technology towards Outlook: the Bynari Insight Client (2 DLL's for outlook)

Re:This may be a bit off-topic, but..

[sbjornda]

Does Windows have a net-based install that only requires a couple of floppies to get going?

If your computer has a PXE-enabled NIC you don't even need floppies to do your net-based install of Windows. It's called RIS [microsoft.com]. Still, most folks prefer to Ghost. But see here [win2000mag.com] for a discussion of a voice-activated RIS-based install of Windows.

Re:Source code license?

[Ed Avis]

The restriction on YaST is that you cannot sell 'data carriers' containing the software. So for example you cannot sell CDs with a Linux distribution that contains YaST (SuSE Linux or otherwise). This seems a bit unreasonable from a company that makes its money selling CDs of software mostly written by others.

Still SuSE's policy is that patches to other programs are released under the same licence as the programs themselves, so they do good work in the rest of their distribution. But since YaST is a proprietary SuSE program, I can't really see the point in learning it (since it ties you to SuSE Linux and can never be used by the other distributions under the current licence). Better to support a distribution like Linux-Mandrake which makes sure its admin tools are released as free software.

YMMV, but at least you can appreciate the reasons why some users prefer to stay away from SuSE.