Red Hat 8.0 For KDE Users (And Newbies) 435
pantropik writes "OSNews has been giving quite a bit of bandwidth to Red Hat's newest offering lately. This article, which generated quite a bit of controversy in the comments section, detailed a new user's 'frustrations' with the new release. The latest article, written by yours truly, is rather lengthy, explaining such things as adding 3D drivers, missing MP3 functionality, DVD decoding, using APT with RHL, and customizing Red Hat's modified KDE. At the end, I wrap up with my impression -- as a simple user -- of this 'crippled' KDE implementation. Of course, you can also check out this story, which takes a look at RH 8.0 from 'Joe and Jane User's' perspective."
An OS for all occasions... (Score:5, Insightful)
As the writer wrote:
I was excited to see all the positive, glowing reviews of the latest version of Red Hat Linux. I thought, "finally, I can get away from Windows 98." "It just works" is the mantra. Unfortunately, this was not the case for me.
If the goal is to simply get away from Windows while still maintaining functionality, and you're just a hack user, I would recommend Mac OS X. If you don't have the money to buy new hardware...then I don't know what to tell you.
At this point, Linux is still not going to replace Windows or Mac OS X. And you can't expect REd Hat to solve all the problems in one release. It's a step in the right direction, but this isn't the miracle that Linux needs to attract joe-user.
Don't be so critical.
This is what is really needed (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider this : given the fact that both are so refined already, if both worked together, you'd have a UI that easily bypasses anything MS can come up with and Linux becomes a viable desktop for Joe and Jane user (it already is for Joe and Jane techie).
Again, Linux NEEDS a unified desktop. I can't say it more. It may sound sad, but it has to be done.
That last page.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've got to say, right on, man.
I'd also like to tell detractors to go look into what RedHat has done for Linux and Open Source.
Evil and corporate? If all corporations were evil, we'd do well to have them all under RedHat's brand of evil. Are some of you people capable of understanding how much money RedHat has sunk back into the community? It is, quite frankly, staggering.
Anyway, the bottom line is this: If you don't like it, compile KDE yourself, or switch distributions. Distributions should not be carbon copies of each other, nor should they include every piece of software imaginable (Yay 7 SuSE discs!)..
So what (Score:2, Insightful)
I feel for the writer (Score:4, Insightful)
I just recently tried RH8.0 (I support RH in a corperate environment) and liked how it looks, but am appalled that in order to deploy it I have to replace all the workstations with new just to keep everything feeling right in speed. (WE have aincent P-III 866's here with a paltry 128 meg of ram... I know... I should be killed and eaten for using such old and outdated hardware.)
Redhat 7.3 is the last stage here.. and if Linux desktops in general keep getting feature bloat and exrta slow-down added... I may have to stand up with egg on my face and reccomend that we switch back to Microsoft in a few years.
KDE and Gnome... they need stop all development and focus on getting a 50% speed increase. If they have to cut and slash to do it, then do it. Mozilla needs to do this as well as Open Office.
everyone is sitting behind the excuse that "processors are ultra fast now and ram is cheap." Linux is not the big fish... we must be faster and sleeker than the big fish to survive and overcome.
Growing pains (Score:2, Insightful)
I think as a whole community we need to show more support for Red Hat because once people see the advantages of Red Hat, it's not a big jump to find your favorite distro (SuSe for me :-) ) and isn't this what we're wanting to happen?
Re:That title is double-redundant! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is what is really needed (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree - But it would be essential that the two groups have a unified vision and focus as they progressed. Otherwise, the project could easily become bogged down as each group argued feature X versus feature Y, or how the project was deviating from "the way it should be"
After all, it is not possible to just "stick products together" like this and come out with a product equal to the sum of its parts.
My mini RH 8.0 review (Score:4, Insightful)
Easy for admin to deploy. check
Easy to use desktop even for a windows user. check
Comes with a great Office Suite and email client. check
Comes with a fast stable web browser. check
The best fonts and font tool ever for a linux distro. check
Absolutly 100% free to download ISO's. check
A billion times more secure than Outlook/IE. check
Responsive on modern(1GHz 256MB) machines. check
Companies has given/gives back a LOT to the community. check
I've been using Redhat since 5.0 and I've also pretty much every distro under the sun. For desktop linux this is a high wark mark. It still has a few rough edges when it comes to consumer usage, but really for the business desktop this is deployable NOW. If I were starting a company today there is not doubt RH 8 would be my choice regardless of cost. Also remember this is Redhat's FIRST attempt at the desktop. I can only imagine how good Redhat 8.1 or 8.2 is going to be.
Re:This is what is really needed (Score:2, Insightful)
KDE and Gnome should make sure that they are compatible with each other and that things like Drag&Drop work in both directions and as far as I know, both sites already working on such compability things.
It just works: Mac OS X (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I feel for the writer (Score:5, Insightful)
On what relates to Windows. Do you wanna tell me that you can find a Windows good enough to hang on the configurations you pointed? Even NT had trouble working on the Celeron you pointed out. With only a browser it managed to eat up all memory and permanently require some 20Mb swap.
Or are you talking about the "new" Windows? This new XP crap needs no less than 256 megs to live relatively well on a PIII 900MHz. On that same machine I'm able to use a full-featured Mandrake 9 and have always some 100Mb free for something else, Quake III for example...
Keep the FUD for yourself while you can't switch from Windows Help to man rtfm
not sad, and not difficult (Score:3, Insightful)
Then Gnome and KDE would be very similar, but would also remain separate. KDE would use Konq for file/web, Gnome would use Nautilus/Mozilla respectively, etc.
Then users could mix and match components, developers could choose which development architecture they want, and users would see a consistent desktop with common themes and fonts.
I can't read rh related post on kde mailling lists (Score:5, Insightful)
Why ?
Because many of those many posts come from users having difficulties with choices the heavy thinkers of those distros made. And I got fed up of reading the same problems all over again. And the same answers, to the point that some day those lists look like a big huge faq.
"This a suze related problem. The solution to this problem can be found on suze forum "...etc
Most of the times, the initiative was good and those people are quite eager to do the right thing, they just seem unable to do it THE RIGHT WAY.
In the KDE case, it would have meant in order to do the right thing (desktop appearence unification): to talk with KDE people to warn them and have feedback from them, to show respect for their work and project (leave the small about kde box in the app they put aside anyway) and to show that they have heard their concerns about a supposed preference toward gnome and that they're not funded (because they are not, right?).
But NO, they had to push it under the hat(!) and suddenly, flamewars everywhere, like we need them.
And in order to do it the right way for end users (because they are target for desktop unification, right? I mean, who ELSE need it?), that would mean a little less twinked systems which will behave a little more like everyone else's. If you don't believe me, go and check last transgaming release and see what systems have kernel related issues with last winex release.
If the real issue behind all this was to do the best desktop for end users, they certainly did it the wrong way.
Re:Some thoughts and specific user experience item (Score:4, Insightful)
Regarding browser plugins, the default netscape location for plugins (/usr/lib/netscape/plugins) should be a symlink to the mozilla plugins directory. When some popular "netscape" plugins are installed, such as realplayer, it automatically puts itself in the default netscape location.
For a "joe user", this would probably be a big problem because after installing a plugin, realplayer, flash player, etc... it doesn't work unless the user manually copies the files from the netscape plugin directory into the mozilla plugin directory.
Huge problem, with a simple solution.
Re:note to newbies (Score:2, Insightful)
RedHat 8.0 (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:My mini RH 8.0 review (Score:3, Insightful)
However, my biggest complaint is that RH lacks the capabilities of 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. I've been using apt4rpm on all my RH boxes, but trying to move from RH 7.3 to 8.0 failed.
I looked around at what RH had to offer and what was available on the net, as it turns out, the only 'safe' way to upgrade a RH box from 7.x to 8.0 is to reboot with a bootdisk (install, kickstart, whatever) then perform the upgrade, then reboot to the working system.
This is unacceptable if you have a ton of racked boxes. I need to be able to remotely (scripted is even better) be able to upgrade those boxes, reboot and be ready to go. Having to physically install the media (even for an NFS kickstart) upgrade is a major PITA. It's one of the main reasons I'll never convince the deb-heads I work with to move to RH.
I really like RH, I do a lot of business and enterprise app development and deployment, and RH has consistently provided everything I need to do my job sanely. This one issue is really killing me though.
Re:Bowing down to marketing (Score:3, Insightful)
There are lots of other Linux distributors who still supports the ideals of free software and open source. They'll get my business.
Because YOU'VE decided that Taiwan is it's own country, and not a part of China?
Reminds me of a show I once liked [southperk.com]
Lois: Did you get the permit from the city.
Peter: No we're not part of the city. In fact we're not even part of the country.
Lois: What are you talking about.
Peter: Thanks to a technicality we have the right to secede from the United States and that makes us our own country. from this point on we shall be known as Petoria. I was going to call it Peterland but that gay club by the airport already took it.
Lois: We are a clean industrious people. Mostly white. My son Chris is in charge of our space program. We expect to get to the moon very soon.
Chris: (in tree) Almost there. (falls) they should really use monkeys for this.
Lois: And little Stewie here is our President of poopies.
Stewie: Oh har har.
Trisha: Where is the president now.
Lois: Oh he's on a goodwill mission to America.
I can't stop!! :P
Re:This is what is really needed (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think that is going to help as much as some other features might.
I recently began tinkering with RH7.0, happend to have a copy kicking around. And ran into a huge mess.
My intention is to get it up and running as both a Web and Mail server, its not going to be the most powerful server in the world, but its mostly going to serve only me. Well enough, this is the type of thing *nix OS's are for right? They make good servers, right? Well, I'm not sure yet, I made the mistake of buying a Linksys NIC.
Alright, install hardware, boot machine on CD, install OS with server packages, and... Hmm, not getting a IP address from the DHCP server. Ok, check network settings in linuxconf, looks Ok. Check cable, try NIC in another machine, works there.
After a bit of web searching I noticed that there seems to be a bit of a problem with this generation of card, and the default driver. No problem, there's a new driver out, all I have to do is install it and I'm off to the races. Better yet, its on the driver disk that came with the card.
Ok, copy the driver over to the HD, and try to compile it. (Some gcc -blah -blah -blah command.) Ok, open the man page and try to figure it out (BTW I am not, nor do I have any wish to be a programmer.) After about 15 min. I close the man page and go back to the web. (10 trying to figure out what the hell I was being told, and 5 searching for the asparin bottle.)
Thank God, there are poeple out there with knowledge, who are willing to share. Ok, run the command as I found it on a message board. Hmm, says something is missing. Go back to message board, and look for more info. Ok, got it, this is a common problem too. Get more files, and try to compile those, damn something more is missing. At this point it was 1 in the morning, and I gave up and went to bed, I've not been back to it yet.
The moral of all this is that driver installation in RH seems to be hell if you are unlucky. This is not the way to attract users. Before Linux has any hope of becomeing the mainstream desktop OS, it needs to handle drivers in a better way. I can see 2 things that would have to be done.
1. If a driver is going to have a dependency that may not be in the OS by default, include it with the driver. Sure, it'll bloat the download a bit, but it will save the user from a headache. People like simple things, that's the draw of Windows, simplicity. Consider the last time you updated a driver in Windows, how many dependancies did you have to pull down off the web, do I hear none? This is one area where MS has done a pretty good job, there isn't the need to go running down dependecies, they are just there, and like most users want, "it just works."
2. Click, Click, oohh pretty pictures, hey cool its installed. Yes, its brainless, yes it puts stuff on which you have no clue about, but its what the end user wants. This is what is needed for both programs and drivers, simplicity. Again, this is somthing that MS has exceled at. Though it is partly why people hate Windows, no control, and no clue what is going on. Probably the best thing to do would be to have a "pretty picture" setting as default, and then let those people that want to, switch over to the full control interface. Again, it goes back to what the author of one of the articles said, "it just works". That is what Linux is going to have to acheive if it wants to be the desktop OS of choice for Joe and Jane user.
In closing, as much as I hear about it on slashdot, I don't think that the OSS community really wants to make a desktop for the average user. They want to have thier own "Uber-Desktop" (what is with the German usage anyhow?). They want to live in thier ivory tower and proclaim the rest of the world idiots for not joining them, but at the same time making it impossible for the average user. It reminds me of a time not long past, and an OS that has come and almost gone, DOS. The DOS aficiandos adopted an elietist attitude, and so the average home user bought a Mac. It wasn't until Windows that the basic home user started buying PC's. This is about where Linux is now, its like DOS with Win 3.1 as compared to Mac. Except, in this case its Linux and KDE/Gnome trying to oust Windows. Its not there yet, and won't be without some serious dumbing-down tools built into it. And, from what I have heard from the OSS community, they just aren't interested in doing that, so it will remain an OS for geeks and programmers, and will remain as nothing more that a footnote in computing history.
P.S. Flame away, though I challenge anyone to post a good couter argument.
Re:This is what is really needed (Score:3, Insightful)
The only way you'll stop people from working on either desktop is if they wanted to. Because they want to work on their respective systems, they will not switch, they don't want to.
Should we stop developing FreeBSD, NetBSD and all the other free operating systems? I'd say no, because all you're trying to do is create a dictatorship.
Re:An OS for all occasions... (Score:2, Insightful)
Linux still DOES work on older systems im on a 233 with 64 of RAM running RedHat 8.0 right now. But im not triple clicking open office and evolution. Im using Opera, wmaker, sylpheed for e-mail. RedHat cant do everything by default thats what CHOICE is about, they provide the user with choices its up to lazy ppl to configure it themselves if they dont like the "default" c'mon ppl what the hell has happened, we use to understand this, now we want a mac os X to tie our shoes for us!
Re:This is what is really needed (Score:4, Insightful)
And 'select + middle mouse button' doesn't cut it (no pun intended). When I select something doesn't mean that I want to blow away what's in my copy buffer. I might just want to delete it or replace it with what is in my copy buffer.
Re:Bowing down to marketing (Score:2, Insightful)
Because YOU'VE decided that Taiwan is it's own country, and not a part of China?
Nope. No where in my post did I claim or imply that (you seem to have a grudge against it because you brought it up). This is simply about the flag -- the simple recognition that there are 2 separate government bodies, one in China and one in Taiwan; one that supresses freedom and one that supports it.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Chinese government does not govern Taiwanese people, nor vice versa. Yet you failed to realize that.
Re:That last page.. (Score:2, Insightful)
I used to use Red Hat but have since found Gentoo and loving every minute of it. Everyone is talking about how KDE in RH 8 is crippled. I in the mean time have been working to get Bluecurve and whatnot installed on my KDE in Gentoo.
Oh and Konq vs Moz? Pfft, it's nothing towards the KDE people but I think the general preference in the whole linux community would be for Moz. And if you don't like it, don't use it! Right-click on the Moz icon click remove. Right-click where it use to be the follow Panel ->Add ->Button ->Internet ->Konquerer Web Browser. Same with Evolution vs kmail. I personally like kmail better, nothing in Redhat is stopping me from using it. They just think that a in multi-desktop enviroment distro, Evolution would be better.
I applaud them for this "crippling." It would take 2 minutes to uncripple if you hate it, but don't bother me because change is scary.
Re:An OS for all occasions... (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think MacOS X is the best OS for the task.
WHAT TASK? OS X most certainly has a target market, and it's exactly what the parent poster was describing - people who want to use something other than windows, but who aren't patient or knowledgeable enough to get going with Linux.
RH is just trying to fix a problem (Score:3, Insightful)
The KDE attitude seems to be that there is a war to win for the Linux desktop, while other efforts are more geared towards providing interoperable toolsets of which you can reuse as much or as little as you like. Fortunately, KDE code is open source, and it is entirely appropriate for RedHat and other developers to pick apart the KDE distribution and code and reuse whatever parts are useful. That's how open source works: if a project fails to meet the needs of its users, it gets cannibalized and its parts reused. KDE is probably due for a lot more cannibalization in the future.