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Red Hat Software Businesses

Red Hat 8.0 Released 778

Posted by michael
from the pink-tie-linux-available-at-your-local-cheap-CD-reseller dept.
I_am_Rambi writes "RedHat has released their latest OS, 8.0. Here is Red Hat's ftp site for download and some mirrors. If you need help there's a Howto." Jeet81 adds: "Red Hat is out with a new release, Red Hat 8.0. Looks like Red Hat is moving towards the windows XP style using its new Bluecurve graphical interface (the new default email client 'Ximian Evolution' looks a lot like MS Outlook)." So what's the verdict on Null or Bluecurve or whatever it's called? Good idea, bad idea?
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Red Hat 8.0 Released

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  • FP! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by plazman30 (531348) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:12AM (#4372825) Homepage
    Let them have what ever interface they want. This is Linux. You are free to change it.
  • by sheckard (91376) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:13AM (#4372832) Homepage
    Here is a list of mirrors known to have RH 8.0 ready:

    http://freshrpms.net/mirrors/psyche.html [freshrpms.net]
  • by ck42 (134627) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:13AM (#4372833)
    If it gets more people using Linux....who cares if it looks like a pink elephant.
  • Get it right (Score:5, Informative)

    by browser_war_pow (100778) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:13AM (#4372837) Homepage
    Null was the beta, bluecurve is the new theme
  • Look like windows? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pudge_lightyear (313465) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:14AM (#4372841) Homepage
    It seems to me that looking like windows, while not sharing the ease of use of windows isn't exactly what's going to win customers over. That's only half (or less) of the battle. Maybe if this post read...looks and functions like windows xp (which it couldn't have said in good faith), that would be something.
    • by meisenst (104896) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:59AM (#4373147) Homepage
      I installed RH 8 (typing this using it right now) this morning. It looks like Windows, feels like Windows, and yet has the power and structure of Linux under it, even more invisible than before.

      This is -exactly- what will win customers over, because customers aren't people like me and (potentially) you; customers are people like my boss, his boss, and so on up the line, that look at Linux as a cheap server alternative when we don't want to buy Windows 2000 Server. We, on the other hand, are Linux geeks, who will use Linux and most likely turn off the looks-like-Windows part anyway. =)

      I could probably install RH8 on desktops where I work and use it as an alternative to Windows with a minor change or two (the ability to browse SMB shares would be a must). So, in my view, looking and feeling like Windows is critical, because people don't want to have to learn new tricks when they can just as easily buy Windows.

      meisenst
    • Maybe it's because I grew up in front of an OSI 500.
      Maybe it's because I spent so many hours of my youth at a VT52.
      Maybe it's because I was happy with my Apple ][ and C64 (and as recently as Sunday was playing Seven Cities of Gold on Vice64 and enjoying it.)
      Maybe it's because I always kept at least one CLI open on my Amiga desktop.
      Maybe it's because I've spent so many years writing applications with simple user interfaces for rapid data access and update.
      Maybe it's just me and I've become a curmudgeon and should just move off to the side and keep to myself, aside from the occasional utterance about 'youts dese days.'

      Every time I get a new PC or new version of Microsoft I spend hours figuing out how to get it to stop doing annoying default behavior and trying to figure out where sh!t is, and frequently pissed off becuase there's only one way to get at something and it's buried (i.e. you have to know where to look.)

      I've never considered Microsoft's implementations of anything to be best in class. More often myself and coworkers have simply given up on shaping applications and interfaces to work to our advantage, because someone who knows better than us, has taken that decision power.

      If RH is mimicking Microsoft, I sure as heck hope they don't mimic them all the way, two cruddy interfaces for two different products isn't any kind of improvement in my book.

  • Yay... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Coplan (13643) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:14AM (#4372849) Homepage Journal
    The interface isn't nearly as hacked as people think it is. I think Redhat took a step in the right direction. As much as some geeks might flame that, I think its necessary for the community.

    Realistically though, they didn't hack both Gnome and KDE together, they just sorta made them "LOOK" similar. This is essential, as some people use both KDE and Gnome programs regardless of which interface they use.

    It's worth a try for you redhat and mandrake users. Debian and Slackware users will probably dislike what they've done.

    • Re:Yay... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Your_Mom (94238)
      Slackware users will probably dislike what they've done.
      Hi, Slackware Zealot here. Just to prove you wrong, I like the idea of a nice perty interface. I think it is needed. However, I won't use it. I am downloading it for one of my roomates who wants to try Linux though, I think this is a real nice starting point for most users.

      That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff! Hell Slack is just recently toying with the idea for possibly going to 2, and even they postponed it for another release. Sheesh!

      • I have to agree with this. If you need 5 disks youre putting way too much on the base install. Im not a person who thinks that you should be leet and start with a kernel floppy. But whay would you need five disks?

        Give them the OS, the GUI, and a brower with a ton of links to other stuff..

      • Re:Yay... (Score:4, Informative)

        by runlvl0 (198575) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:50AM (#4373091) Homepage Journal
        Although Red Hat didn't label them as such, disks 1-3 are the install disks, and 4-5 are the SRPMS. (I just downloaded all 5 CDs last night - GRR! AAARGH!)
        • Re:Yay... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by JoeBuck (7947) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @12:43PM (#4374260) Homepage

          At least they are following the GPL. A distressing number of people are distributing Linux and GNU binaries without worrying about their obligation to either provide matching source at the same time, or to include a written offer, good for three years, to provide source later.

      • by gaj (1933) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:58AM (#4373142) Homepage Journal
        Actually, only three are installation discs. Two are source (SRPMs) and one is docs. In their defense, there is roughly one metric shitload of stuff that you can install. One thing I found refreshing (though I've not yet tested it) is an option for "minimal" package install taht is for routers, firewalls and such. I may have a look at that this weekend.

        I did install 8.0 last night. I was running "null" for the last week or so, and it looks like most of my problems with null were fixed. One hassle is that my laptop doesn't have APM support; like most new laptops it is ACPI only. The kernel RedHat ships isn't ACPI enabled, unforch. Easy enough to fix, of course, but annoying none the less.

        My only real outstanding issues are suspend (which swsusp should cover if I can't get Toshiba's ACPI BIOS to cooperate) and scanner support.

        Unforch, the latter was a problem in 7.3 as well, and I never did get it working. Worked fine in 7.2, IIRC. Epson Perfection 1200U Photo is the scanner model. I haven't really done any looking into the issue, though, just tried SANE and it couldn't find the scanner.

        All in all 8.0 looks pretty nice. The root menu (or the "start menu" that has replaced it $#@%!) is still a fsking mess, with many config tools not there. I do virtually all my config using my favorite config tool though (vi), so that is mostly an issue for interfaces they've changed. Some of the new GUI prefs tools are pretty nice, though, so I may well start using them.

        The AI fonts looke nice, though the only fonts available for gnome-terminal (using the std prefs dialog anyway, haven't checked to see if good ole "fixed" is available) look like shite when made small enough to fit two terms side-by-side on my XGA display. Quick install of either the old fonts or rxvt should fix that, though, and the tradeoff is well worth it for most users (nice clear text in slightly larger sizes).

        In short, I approve of 8.0. The new compiler tool chain, Python 2.2.1, Mozilla 1.0.1, GTK+/GNOME 2.0, etc. made upgrading an eazy decision for me.

      • Re:Yay... (Score:5, Funny)

        by BluBrick (1924) <blubrickNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:06AM (#4373196) Homepage
        That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff!


        Aww, c'mon now! Five disks isn't that bad. That's only a little over 7 meg. I remember when a full Slack distro was over 30 disks...

        What? What's that you say? Five what ?
      • Re:Yay... (Score:3, Funny)

        by einhverfr (238914)
        That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff! Hell Slack is just recently toying with the idea for possibly going to 2, and even they postponed it for another release. Sheesh!

        Actually, the CDROM's run an ISO9660 filesystem, and both the filesystem and media are read-only. fsck will do you no good, so save it for your hard drive...
    • Re:Yay... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by garcia (6573)
      as an ex-Slackware, ex-RedHat, and current Debian user I don't care what they have done.

      I would dump KDE and/or GNOME and run what I have run since however many years ago.

      While I think that it looks nice (except for PACKED menus) for people that want that sort of thing, Linux is still great b/c we can run whatever the hell we like instead of whatever the default is.

      I have tried Gnone and KDE once before each. I wasn't impressed w/the speed of the UI on this machine. I suppose once I get older and less annoyed with attempts to make Linux more of a desktop OS and I become lazy and want to stop having to move files with commands I will switch.

      Until then, if I were to upgrade to a distribution that offered this sort of UI, I would disable it and go back to what I have been used to.

      Ahh, the wonders of freedom! Just my worthless .02 for today.
    • by Nailer (69468) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:39AM (#4373033)
      Most people have heard a lot on this topic, but mostly from people who haven't actually used 8.0 or Null. In fact, a good deal of the information that has been touted about the web is provably false. Some of the changes have had negative side effects that are in bugzilla, but, in my opinion as a KDE user, overall they've increased the usability of Linux desktops.

      I've written a fairly comprehensive summary of what exactly Red Hat have modified about their KDE setup [cyber.com.au], and what I believe to be the rationale behind those changes. If you've read it before, it might eb worth a visit as I've made a few correctiosn and additiosn since then.

      Cheers,

      Mike
      • For perspective, I'm not a RedHet user. I prefer Debian on servers, and have been utilizing Mandrake on Desktop/EyeCandy machines.

        Having said that, I read the summary that you've written about RedHat, and their KDE modifications. I think it's very well written, and very comprehensive. I would have a hard time disagreeing with any of the conclusions that you've drawn.

        I hope that some of the complainers take the time to read it as well.

        RedHat is simply trying to put forward the best that Linux has to offer, which will invariably result in the subjective assessment of various competing applications. Some applications are simply more refined than others, and as a result, they've been elevated to "default" status. The alternatives are still present.

        As for trying to unify the appearance of the completing desktop environments, that too is a step that most people see as inevitable. It certainly makes life easier for the new users, and OS converts. I know that from an aesthetic perspective, I'd like my KDE and GNOME apps to have a similar appearance, regardless of which desktop I happen to be running.

        These are for the most part cosmetic changes, and the end result is a better overall distribution.

        Good for RedHat, and good for Linux.

  • Dammit! (Score:4, Funny)

    by FreeLinux (555387) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:15AM (#4372855)
    The mirrors have been either jammed or not updated since Monday. Now Slashdot posts links on the frontpage. I'll never be able to get the ISOs.
    • I'm just waiting for CheapBytes to release their burned ISOs.

      We don't need those damn manuals.

      And have you ever tried to download the ISOs with a 56k. I'm not doing that again?

    • Spend $60 bucks, buy a support contact, and get access to RedHats download servers. As an added bonus the money supports RedHat directly. I use thier product so I do not mind paying a little for thier support.

      I had all three iso disc images downloaded Monday.

  • Speed improvments (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Wally_Hntr (591170)
    One thing I've noticed is that it doesn't take a minute to open Nautilus anymore. Much appreciated change. Overall, it looks more polished than previous releases. (much easier for mom to use)
  • yes (Score:3, Funny)

    by MarsDude (74832) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:17AM (#4372868) Homepage
    "So what's the verdict on Null or Bluecurve or whatever it's called? Good idea, bad idea? "

    Yes... one of those 2. Or maybe something in between.
  • null or bluecurve (Score:5, Informative)

    by sethadam1 (530629) <adam AT firsttube DOT com> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:17AM (#4372869) Homepage
    I cannot even believe this is Slashdot anymore!

    - The release is called Psyche.
    - The final beta was called (null), with parens, not "null."
    - The default theme, authored by Red Hat, is called Blue Curve. Blue Curve is offered in both Red Hat stock KDE 3 or Gnome 2.
    - The release date was 9-30. Is this is a news site or what?
    • Some quotes:
      So what's the verdict on Null or Bluecurve or whatever it's called? - It may not be good humor, but this _is_ an _attempt_ at humor. A lot of us caught onto that.

      The release date was 9-30. Is this is a news site or what? - If it's announced on the day of the release, the flames fly about waiting 'til it propagates to all of the mirrors.

    • by Hobophile (602318) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:04AM (#4373181) Homepage
      I cannot even believe this is Slashdot anymore!

      How exactly is the behavior you are complaining about -- inaccuracies in headline and submitter comments and delayed coverage of old news -- atypical for Slashdot? One might argue that they are very much old hat for regular readers.

      More to the point, you're wrong about many of the 'issues' you raise. Point two, that it is called (null) instead of null, is just being pedantic, and I am quite skeptical regarding its accuracy.

      If one were inclined to pick nits, one might observe that the theme is Bluecurve, not "Blue Curve", but I'm feeling generous and so I'll let it pass.

      And finally, in case you missed it, there was a story about Red Hat 8.0 on Monday, when it was released. I have no idea why there's another one, but the story was reported as news when it actually was news, and here it is again.

      One of the joys of Slashdot is that over the days and months and years, you see familiar stories reappear and can recapture the joy you felt when reading them initially. The main page is like an endless parade of friendly faces, each one smiling and saying, "It's been a while. Take a break, read me again, let's catch up."

      I have always believed that this happens because the editors firmly believe, like Faulkner before them, that there are truly no new stories. In the vast span of human existence, tales of greed and altruism, life and death, nobility and depravity, wonder and Red Hat point releases, have all been played out countless times in the same familiar manner. Only the faces change. To my mind this is a very humanistic sentiment, and I cherish those editors who recognize this fundamental truth of our existence.

      Kudos to you, Slashdot staff!

  • Screenshots... (Score:5, Informative)

    by deego (587575) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:17AM (#4372871)
    here [ibiblio.org] are some screenshots..
    • Re:Screenshots... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by evbergen (31483) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:59AM (#4373541) Homepage
      Hm, a nicer UI, eh? Looking at http://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/contrib /texstar/screenshots/redhat80/snapshot03.jpg, we have

      - preferences, *and*
      - server settings, *and*
      - system tools, *and*
      - system settings, *and*
      - control center, *and*
      - configure panel.

      And you think it should be immediately obvious from these items, that appear in a completely unsorted and ungrouped menu, what they mean and what the distinction is? I must admit the theme looks surprisingly friendly (if not soft), but seriously, this is painful, if not patently absurd.

      Is it really necessary to make a difference between Preferences, System Settings, and a Control Center? Between System Settings and Server Settings? And is there any reason why all these should live outside the Control Center? Is there any reason at all to have a Control /Center/ if all the knobs and tweaks are already available elsewhere?

      Make up your mind I'd say. If you *desparately* want to supply more than one configuration item, reduce it to 'Personal Preferences' and 'System Settings', a distinction which at least has some meaning for people who already know that different people can use the computer each in their own way, but that some people may control the computer's overall behaviour as well.

      The mixing of verbs and nouns in the same list is also horribly confusing. The submenus should get their own group and the rest should be *verbs*, if you want to give the user any feel of predictability at all (*Launch* Control Center. *Get* Help. *Open* Home folder). Or go the other way, with an implicit Start, Launch or Open everywhere, but then please be consistent and call 'Find Files' the 'Search Tool'.

      Come on guys, I'm also a C programmer instead of a UI designer, but is it really so hard to avoid making a mess? No wonder even geeks are switching to Macs these days.
  • by ajs (35943) <ajs@@@ajs...com> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:18AM (#4372879) Homepage Journal
    The first question is: is unifying desktops via theming a good idea. The answer is an emphatic yes, but with the proviso that it's a damn hard thing to do well, and you have to deal with the egos of everyone involved (including your own).

    The second question is: did Red Hat pull it off well. I think we will have to wait a few months to guage how successful it has been. Ximian's Gnome2-based system will almost certianly be out soon, and I think a good measure of how usable Red Hat's desktop is will be how many people plunk Ximian down over it.
  • You know, I run a mirror for redhat, and it's been available for 2 days. Why are we just now discussing this?
    • by weave (48069) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:23AM (#4372913) Journal
      Poor slashdot. If they break a new release story right away they get flamed for causing people to slam the vendor's ftp site before the mirrors have a chance to get it, if they wait a few days and allow mirrors to get updated first, they get flamed for posting a story which is "old news."
    • It used to be that Slashdot would post new release info as soon as some popular package came out, sometimes before the mirrors got updated, everyone bitched. Now they wait a bit, people bitch. yeah, sure they still posted a direct link to redhat's ftp site, but at least they posted a link to where the mirrors are :)

    • Why are we just now discussing this?

      /. is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

      Luckily for me, the were damned that they didn't, so I was able to download it yesterday.

  • I only have a problem with fancy design updates when they take precedence over fixing problems that are more important to me. Of course, my problems (like the lack of robustness in mounting smb shares), aren't everyone else's, so maybe they made the right decision.

    Personally, look-and-feel is pretty low on my priorities list, but it is really nice to have someone say "what is that you're using? It looks really cool".
    • Exactly. If they want more 'average' home PC users having Linux then it will probably come from it looking nice. Micro$oft has a very poor reputation with reliability and people tend to regard Linux has a good reputation. Now if we could get a bit more software off the shelf we'd be laughing......
  • RH 8 on nvidia? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by (H)elix1 (231155) <slashdot.helix@nOSPaM.gmail.com> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:19AM (#4372888) Homepage Journal
    Anyone know if the nvidia chipsets are supported out of the box, or is it still a post install patch with the laptop version?
  • And it's still not done downloading the first CD.

    I tried out Null when it was released, and it does feel XP-ish, only without the horrid default color scheme of XP ;)

    Ximian Evolution has been out for quite a while, and it's included in most major distros, not just RH. I use Evolution (came with Slack 8.1) for my daily email.

    • I tried out Null when it was released, and it does feel XP-ish, only without the horrid default color scheme of XP ;)

      I dunno about you, but the default XP theme is visually asthetic to use. Easy to read, easy to distinguish icons/visual alerts and "simple".

      Especially when you move into LCD monitors and laptops. I have yet to see a linux desktop (downloading 8.0 to see if it helps) that without TONS i mean TONS of engineering and time spent on it look visually "asthetic" and not blocky or chunky on an LCD or Laptop monitor.

      I run multiple LCD displays, si'm fanaticle about how my expensive equipment works.

      ofcourse, everyone has there own opinion, but i thought i'd rebute the generalization that "xp sucks"
  • Introducing Red Hat Linux 8.0, a user-friendly Linux operating system.

    OK but does it pass the Grandma test? I can just hear myself now, "OK Grandma, type vee-eye "frontslash" etc/hosts... no wait, frontslash... no, not the one above the RETURN key... wait, yours is called the ENTER key?" Still, the "dumbing down" of the interface all in all is a great step in the right direction to capturing new mindshare.

  • Those mirrors will be useless for at least a week. RH has the worst set of mirrors I've ever encountered. Months after a major release it is still difficult to find a mirror that is working, has the latest files, and not stuffed to the gills with downloaders. Even when you get on a mirror it is dog slow and times out frequently. Generally you are better off poking around university FTP sites (especially the CS department) looking for someone hosting a local mirror than you are trying to fight for the 100 aggregate download slots available on the official mirrors.
  • Red Hat is out with a new release, Red Hat 8.0. Looks like Red Hat is moving towards the windows XP style using its new Bluecurve graphical interface (the new default email client 'Ximian Evolution' looks a lot like MS Outlook).

    The new Red Hat will be 8.0? New desktop theme? Wow, thanks for letting us know! ;-)

    Seriously, though, is there something new with Evolution or is it the same UI that's always been an Outlook clone?

  • by mgkimsal2 (200677) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:21AM (#4372900) Homepage
    I had a stock RH7.3 install, which I'd then changed a bit visually (new KDE themes, etc). I upgraded to RH8 yesterday. The 'bluecurve' didn't come up, although it was an available theme in the KDE theme area. Overall, after the 'upgrade', everything seemed exactly as it was before. Couple things seemed faster, but nothing significant had changed (didn't check Apache, and apparently it's gone to 2.0, so that probably wouldn't have worked).

    Anyway, I had to completely remove my .kde directory, then restarting brought up everything 'new', and it looks nice. Not earth shattering, but nice. We've played around with it here, going between KDE and Gnome, and they do look very similar. Menus are the same, colors, etc. Fonts seemed a bit different between the two (Gnome fonts appeared a bit smaller) but otherwise it was fine. Not impossible to tell which you're using, but it's not a jarring experience going between the two.

    The menu now has just one option for many things - 'project manager', 'web browser', 'email', etc. and I do think some things are grouped more logically than others. It also seems that you still get WAY too much *in the menus* which isn't useful for most people - it just overwhelms you when you're trying to find stuff. I'd suggest making a 'default' menu with fewer things, with the option of clicking a 'sysadmin menu' checkbox somewhere to add sysadmin stuff if/when it's needed.

    Finally, many things seem faster - I'm assuming this is because of the new GCC and some kernel scheduling stuff. Whatever it is, it's made a big difference on this box. I'm testing at home tonight as well and expect similar performance increases.

    All in all, a good upgrade.
    • by FreeLinux (555387) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:38AM (#4373026)
      Anyway, I had to completely remove my .kde directory, then restarting brought up everything 'new', and it looks nice.

      This is the correct behavior for an upgrade. It would really suck if an OS upgrade wiped out your existing configs and preferrences, wouldn't it?

      Suppose you had a server with a couple hundred users on it. Over the weekend you upgrade the OS and it resets everyone's desktops and configs. Would you like to be in the support chair on Monday morning?
      • Not saying it shouldn't behave that way, but it would help 'average' users such as myself who aren't low-level admins to spell out some of that during the install. The installer specifically *knows* it's an upgrade, so why not give me some 'tips' specific to an upgraded system? I'd rather read that than the continuous ads rotated during the hour long installation procedure. Maybe it says something in the boxed version, but I don't think so.

        I was also posting it as a note for people like me who might have expected something a bit more or different.
  • Just my $0.02 (Score:4, Redundant)

    by papasui (567265) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:21AM (#4372901) Homepage
    I personally love that you can customize Linux to look and work the way you want it to, but setting that aside, I feel the only way you can actually convince the novice computer user a shot st using Linux the UI needs to consistant across the distos. I know plenty of people I work with that took a long time to learn Windows and might be willing to give Linux a shot, but not if they are going to be lost when they use a different GUI on a different Linux machine. If it came down to a somewhat standardized look, I think there would be a lot more converts. Yea that means making it more like Windows but that seems be what 95% of the population wants...
  • by John Paul Jones (151355) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:21AM (#4372902)

    I've been running Ximian Gnome for quite some time now, and Real People think it looks good, but is somewhat alien in presentation... the new RH "skin" on KDE/Gnome is targetted directly at them, and this is a Good Thing(tm) for Linux. The inclusion of a display settings dialog that changes the screen resolution and colors via a GUI that functions similarly to WinX is now present and functional. The purists scoff, but the Real People use.

    Embrace and extend, remember?

    -JPJ

  • by back_pages (600753) <back_pages@cox.TWAINnet minus author> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:24AM (#4372917) Journal
    This is obviously old news to anyone who cared in the first place, but anyhow...

    I was struggling with ftp transfers for the last two days. They are miserably clogged, as we all expect. I was surprised to find a perfectly legitimate use for P2P file sharing networks in this - gtk-gnutella has found all five isos for me with download speeds about 40 times greater than I was getting on ftp.

    Just check the MD5 and enjoy.

  • Ahem... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Dutchmaan (442553)
    "Looks like Red Hat is moving towards the windows XP style using its new Bluecurve graphical interface."

    Excuse me... might you mean the OS X style Bluecurve graphical interface? Lets be honest here.. if it wasn't for Aqua.. The Luna derivative would probably never have been...and consequent derivatives.
  • Mandrake or redhat?

  • I could have sworn that my mirror had 5 iso's the other day, but there's only 3 there now... What's missing ?

    Simon
  • by Beautyon (214567) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:32AM (#4372974) Homepage
    From the LBC-announce mailing list:

    "I've been getting a number of enquiries about when we'll have a cheap
    version of Red Hat Linux 8.0.

    Unfortunately, Red Hat have moved the goal posts again. In a surprising
    move they've completely broken with their previous policy of 100% open
    source. The new distribution contains a few components which are (C)
    Red Hat and are *not* freely re-distributable. This has produced
    surprisingly little comment but the effect is that it's no longer
    possible to re-distribute copies of the standard download version of Red
    Hat Linux. For the company that has up to now been the champion of Open
    Source, it's a major direction change.

    It's not all bad news though. The problem components are in identified
    packages and Red Hat have said it's fine to re-distribute as long as
    they are first removed. I therefore hope that we will be able to do a
    Threads Linux 8.0. It will no longer be exactly the same as Red Hat,
    although it will be functionally identical.

    Cheers,
    John"
    -- The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux in the UK
    See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/ [linuxemporium.co.uk]

    • by Majix (139279) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:56AM (#4373128) Homepage
      Unfortunately, Red Hat have moved the goal posts again. In a surprising
      move they've completely broken with their previous policy of 100% open
      source. The new distribution contains a few components which are (C)
      Red Hat and are *not* freely re-distributable.


      Every piece of software in the distribution is of course copyrighted to someone. That has absolutely no implications for whether you can redistribute it or not. If you thought GPL'ing the software somehows means giving up your copyright I suggest you reread the license.

      Now I admit I haven't checked all of the packages, but I did check the most obvious ones, redhat-artwork etc. They are all under the GPL.

      If there are indeed packages that can not be redistributed I sure would like to know the names of them.
      • Redhat-logos (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Alan Cox (27532) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:16AM (#4373282) Homepage
        At least I assume it is the redhat-logos that he means. If you sell a Red Hat 8.0 based distribution you need to replace the logos with your own logos so that people know it isnt the genuine Red Hat article.

        So you swap the logo package for 'emporium linux' or whatever. Logo rules are there for the obvious trademark reasons, and helping to ensure people know if they are getting Red Hat or not.

        In terms of non free packages - netscape is gone and the flash type stuff is on the extra app cds or available from the vendor rather than lurking in with the free stuff.

        I'm not sure quite how the logos fit in with each persons individual definition of free. What we do is basically the same as for example Debian
        (http://www.debian.org/logos/)

        Alan
        • Re:Redhat-logos (Score:5, Informative)

          by alue (253363) <alan.lue@PASCALgmail.com minus language> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @11:02AM (#4373560)
          You're right about this one, apparently: the redhat-logos package, and additionally the anaconda-images package, are licensed under something red hat wrote rather than the gpl:

          $ rpm -qi redhat-logos
          Name : redhat-logos
          . . .
          License: Copyright ? 1999-2002 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved.
          . . .

          These packages include a file on copying. Here's a n excerpt from that file:


          The redhat-logos package and the anaconda-images package (the "Packages")
          contain image files which incorporate the RED HAT trademark, Red Hat
          "Shadow Man" logo and the RPM logo (the "Marks"). RED HAT, the Red Hat
          "Shadow Man" logo, RPM, and the RPM logo are trademarks or registered
          trademarks of Red Hat, Inc. in the United States and other
          countries.

          Red Hat, Inc. grants you the right to use the Packages during the
          normal operation of other software programs that call upon the
          Packages. Red Hat, Inc. grants to you the right and license to copy
          and redistribute the unaltered Packages, but only in conjunction with
          copying or redistributing additional software packages that call upon
          the Packages during the normal course of operation and only in
          non-commercial distributions permitted under Red Hat's trademark
          guidelines found at www.redhat.com/about/trademark_guidelines.html
          or under a separate written license agreement from Red Hat. Red Hat,
          Inc. grants to you the right and license to copy and redistribute the
          Packages in commercial distributions without additional license or
          permission, but only in conjunction with copying or redistributing
          additional software packages that call upon the Packages during the
          normal course of operation and only when all of the Marks have been
          removed or replaced within the Packages.


          So this is all about the Shadow Man and RPM logos. According to the license, you can still redistribute red hat in its entirety, provided you don't make any money off of the redistribution. If you do want to redistribute Red Hat in a commercial fashion, however, you're permitted to do so "only when all of the Marks have been removed or replaced within the Packages."

          Looks like a good compromise to me.
  • Most I've heard that tried to upgrade Red Hat 7.3 computers to 8.0, have failed. My own only runs windowmaker, but KDE and Gnome fail to launch. Some people say I should be happy :-)

    The kernel only changed from 2.4.18-10 to 2.4.18-14, but my uhci usb wasn't detected automatically, so it removed my mouse, "rpm --rebuild" didn't work on the source rpms I downloaded from Nvidia (--rebuild is no longer an rpm option), Xconfigurator is gone, but the kernel seems to detect other hardware on my motherboard better because everything runs much faster now.

    The discussion we had lately about bluecurve is much better understood when you try Red Hat 8.0. KDE and Gnome look so much the same that most people would probably want to choose the default (Gnome), and then they don't find all the neat stuff built into KDE (like the KDE file system with sftp support, KDE printing etc.).

    Bluecurve is not good for experienced users, but seems to be a gift to new Linux users. They will feel welcome. Since only a small percentage of desktop users use Linux now, I think this is a good step on the road to make GNU/Linux the dominant desktop operating system.

    Dybdahl.
  • by JeffVolc (89846) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @09:37AM (#4373018)
    I downloaded the 3 ISOs on monday and installed Redhat 8 on my laptop and home server server yesterday. FWIW, I installed Mandrake 9 on my laptop and home workstation on monday to see how it will compare to RH8.

    The Good...
    Very polished... no really... VERY POLISHED! Way impressed. The new theme is nice. Yes some stuff is moved around... so what. No technical hitches at all. Everything was detected great.

    The Bad...
    2.4.18... what's up with that. I guess it's been in testing too long. Actually, for a X.0 release things look pretty good.

    The Ugly...
    Apache 2.0+PHP.... none of my PHP stuff seems to work. This was mounted straight from my 7.3 install. Some real ugly errors.

    The verdict....
    Apache 2.0+PHP problem is a show stopper for me. Wiped the machine and installed Mandrake 9.0. Sad since 8 is very slick. Hats off (pun intended) to Redhat for a great release. I may come back to it if I can get the PHP stuff resolved.

    Mandrake 9 comments: I've had issues with stability in previous Mandrake releases. So far I haven't had one with 9. I like the autologin and tv card setup. It almost setup my dual monitor... jsut a little tweaking. Mandrake SEEMS faster and more responsive than Redhat. Haven't benchmarked though so it's just an impression. This could be the release which makes me a Mandrake Convert... and I've been using Redhat since 3.0.3! Only extra package I needed was mtx for my tape library (Redhat includes it).

    Jeff
    • by Majix (139279) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:07AM (#4373200) Homepage
      2.4.18... what's up with that. I guess it's been in testing too long. Actually, for a X.0 release things look pretty good.

      The included kernel is by no means a stock 2.4.18. There's a ton of patches and tweaks applied (all available separeately in the kernel SRPMs'). For example the system clock ticks 5 times faster than the stock one, giving much better responsiveness in for example X (see the release notes on for more information). Large parts of Alan Cox's ac-kernel tree is part of the RH kernel (Alan is employed by RH you know). I know of no distribution that would ship a stock kernel.

      Apache 2.0+PHP problem is a show stopper for me. Wiped the machine and installed Mandrake 9.0. Sad since 8 is very slick. Hats off (pun intended) to Redhat for a great release. I may come back to it if I can get the PHP stuff resolved.

      All recent version of PHP have deprecated the REGISTER_GLOBALS option (and good riddance!). This is most likely what is causing your problems, poorly written scripts will no longer run on recent PHP's.

      • by abdulwahid (214915) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:47AM (#4373480) Homepage

        All recent version of PHP have deprecated the REGISTER_GLOBALS option (and good riddance!). This is most likely what is causing your problems, poorly written scripts will no longer run on recent PHP's.

        They haven't got rid of REGISTER_GLOBALS rather they have just made the default to be off. That is of course a good thing as they can often cause drastic security risks by people passing variables to your script and causing behaviour you didn't expect. For now you could re-enable it but I wouldn't recommend leaving it that way. Fix your scripts and then leave it off.

  • by less (22188)
    Several people have questioned the reason for RH to make this a new major release number. Some of the comments are "Does a new desktop theme mandate a new major release" etc.etc.. The answer is of course, no.

    However, aside from the new Blue Curve theme RH 8.0 also contains new major relases of Gnome and Apache. Apache is also probably the most used "userland" application in the system.... So imo Apache 2 and Gnome 2 _alone_ mandates a new major release number for RedHat Linux.

    Btw, I thought the short informal mail RH sent to RHN customers is probaly the the best "in a nuthshell" description of RH8:s new features:

    Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:41:54 -0400
    From: Red Hat Network <rhn-admin@rhn.redhat.com>

    [snip]

    What's new in Red Hat Linux 8.0, anyway?

    * A new interface -- a user-friendly desktop with graphical enhancements and improved menu organization

    * The latest Gnu Compiler Collection, gcc-3.2, and a specially tuned and tested high-performace kernel, 2.4.18.

    * Cutting-edge web server technology powered by the latest release of Apache, 2.0.

    * Updated graphical configuration tools that make setting up a Linux server a truly point-and-click experience.

    * A single interface for package selection during and after installation

    * Enhanced personal security, featuring a point-and-click firewall tool to protect your system from Internet intruders.

  • Blue Curve is really nice for those that come from the Microsoft world. Personally I am aching for the first icon-set RPMs that give me back the default Gnome look and I don't like the menus either. The latter bit is just bad for everyone, the menus are really confusing and inconsistent.

  • I upgraded on a mouseless server without a GUI. The prior version was Red Hat 7.3 with a highly customized Apache config.

    I got a gpm oops during package install that caused a minor formatting problem with the progress bar, but it didn't obscure the information or break the install.

    Needless to say, managing the Apache migration to 2.0 was the biggest headache, but I'd say Red Hat did a reasonably good job of easing the pain. When you try to start Apache from the rc script, it fails with an error directing you to an html file for information on migration. That file was fairly helpful as a starting point.

    It explained that my old config files had not been changed but would not work with the new Apache version, and it explained that new stock config files had been installed and where I could find them. Working with the two files was awkward without the GUI, having to Alt-F2 and Alt-F1 between terminals, but I managed to get the config file updated for my sites in about an hour. I had already been off line for quite a while during the OS install, so I didn't mind much. If down time is an issue, consider bringing in a temporary box.

    Interestingly, I did choose to customize the packages that I upgraded, but I didn't see Apache there. It apparently forced me to upgrade. Can anyone confirm this? Perhaps I overlooked it.

    I would have liked to see some warning or information during the installation. I'm not sure everyone will stumble onto that migration message as serendipitously as I did. (It's here: /usr/share/doc/httpd-2.0.40/migration.html.) It may have been visible during the system startup, but since Apache starts relatively late you would have had to have been paying close attention. I didn't notice. I'd also liked to have seen options to install 2.0 to a different directory while leaving the 1.3 version in a working state, or to revert to 1.3. Also, it's fortunate that my sites don't make use of any modules that aren't available in 2.0.
  • Almost great (Score:3, Informative)

    by ACK!! (10229) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:11AM (#4373233) Journal
    Listen, I love this look for the Window Manager and widgets.

    However, I feel that the icons with their plastic 3-D look is too KDE-like. (I know KDE folks say just the opposite but its my OPINION).

    My big problem is the fact that they ripped out all the mp3 stuff and do not include most plugins for multimedia use needed for Mozilla. SuSE has no problem shipping Acrobat, RealPlayer etc...etc...

    What does this mean? A lot of noisome downloading and such to get a distro I can live with.

    Also, what is up with going with Gnome 2.0 by default and not including the Gnumeric gtk 2.0 version? I know that the Gimp port is supposed to be unstable but I love the thing it works great for me. Include some of those cutting edge ports!

    On the good side I like the way they integrated the system tools in a very smooth Gnome-like fashion. I hate it when system tools are not integrated well into the desktop environment.
  • Mandrake... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Sj0 (472011) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:14AM (#4373266) Homepage Journal
    I downloaded Mandrake 9.0 last night, and I must say, Redhat would have to do something pretty spectacular to top it. I installed it on my laptop, and not only did it install with room to spare on a 400MB Partition, it comes with many lightweight WMs which are great for a machine with a mere 32 MB of RAM. After seeing the installer(which actually took into consideration that I might not have all three CDs -- something I've been burned by RedHat with several times), and seeing Mandrake resize my Windows partition automatically, I'd be hard-pressed to find a reason to move back -- on my desktop and laptop machines, that is. The server would definitely be RedHat -- It's just something that RedHat is better for.

    Sorry for ranting about Mandrake in a thread about RedHat.
  • by tf23 (27474) <(tf23) (at) (lottadot.com)> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:14AM (#4373270) Homepage Journal
    I was lucky enough to snag the first 4 cd's over the weekend, so I've been playing with 8.0 for a few days now.

    I had the beta release null installed on a box last week that I had tried too.

    Anyway, as for 8.0,
    likes:
    - the interface. switching between KDE and GNOME doesn't cause others looking at the desktop to be totally mystified. they both look similar, and it's been a long time coming that Redhat should've done this.
    - mozilla. it's come a long way, and its turning into quite a browser.
    - it installed nicely on all but one box - it didn't recognize the soundcard on a dell optiplex gx1p. running sndconfig manually after the install fixed that right up.

    dislikes:
    - no direct way to mount a win32 share from the desktop. Yes, I can start Konq and smb://somemachine, but can I right-click and mount it? Nope.
    - no 'run' interface like win32. sorry, but I can window-key-R and type \\machine\sharename
    and I'm there. Can't do that with RH.
    - xmms has mp3 play-ability removed. Fine, goto http://psyche.freshrpms.net/ [freshrpms.net] and grab the rpm so it can play mp3's.
    - dvd playback (mpg, avi, etc) - again, gotta go get more rpm's from freshrpms because default redhat8 doesn't have the capability.

    Now, I realize that before the latest Win32 OS's came out, you had to go get an mp3 player. And most people, even though Windows XP can play them out of the box now, they probably go get winamp. (I do). So can I really bitch about redhat not playing mp3's out of the box?

    Sure I can. In my opinion, Redhat could atleast buy the license to include this stuff, so that if I purchase the boxed set, and install it, that would have the capability built in. I can understand they don't want to pay for the people who are downloading the iso's for free.

    I also came to the realization that even though all the apps have the same look and feel, running KDE apps under GNOME, or vise versa, doesn't always play nicely. Example: I like Kmail (specifically because of the filters, and it acts like Eudora). Anyway, I ran it under GNOME. It tried to view a jpg attachment someone sent by clicking on it, and it didn't happen. Switched to KDE (which I normally use 99% of the time) went to kmail, clicked on the attachment... bingo, it came right up.

    Yes, there's probably a fix for this. But I'm sorry, I'm getting tired of having to tinker to get each linux box to act uniformally all the time. Between the two here at work, the 2 at home, and the dual boot laptop, it can take a lot of time tinkering with things to get them to work. Hopefully, w/ each release of redhat this will become less and less of an issue.

    Anyway, just my $.02....

    tf23

  • Celeron troubles.... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Peyna (14792) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:18AM (#4373289) Homepage
    Well, at least that's what I think is causing my problems. I'm trying to install Redhat 8 on my laptop which has an old school celeron 466 (non-mobile), and every time after install it locks up after freeing unused kernel memory. 7.3 worked great, and I had the same error with Mandrake 9. Any ideas or similar experiences? I got absolutely no response on the forums.
  • RPM hanging problems (Score:5, Interesting)

    by vorwerk (543034) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:31AM (#4373383)
    For years, I've been compiling the software on my system and tweaking everything by hand. Lately, I've been spending way too long doing this [my computer is slooow], so I decided to nuke my linux install and put on Psyche.

    And I love it. It looks great, and RedHat has done a terrific job. Hurray. ;)

    EXCEPT ...

    Imagine my surprise when, on my fresh Psyche box, I tried to install xmms MP3 plugins and found that RPM was hanging. No matter what I tried (deleting stale __db locks, rebuilding the rpm database, etc.), I continually had to 'kill -9' to remove the rpm zombie process. I can't upgrade or install new packages without rpm dying.

    It turns out that there is very likely a race condition in the signal handling code in rpm 4.1, which ships with Psyche. You may or may not experience this problem, but you can follow the status of the bug at the following URLs:

    bug 74726 [redhat.com]
    bug 73097 [redhat.com]
    bug 73134 [redhat.com]

    cheers
  • Thank God (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ceswiedler (165311) <chris@swiedler.org> on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:45AM (#4373468)
    Thank god at least one Linux company is actually acting like a company and trying to make a profit in a realistic way.

    The important thing about Open Source and Linux isn't that Red Hat has to give away their product, nor that they be "nice" to the community by keeping KDE and Gnome separate. The important thing is that no matter what, you know that you can get the source to every (important) piece of the Red Hat operating system. You can replace the kernel, the GUI, the web server. You can examine the code and recompile it yourself.

    Red Hat is a company. If you want completely free, volunteer-based stuff, go to Debian. If you want a corporate-style OS, with actual help, support, integration, and consistency, then for christ's sake YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

    Red Hat could really care less if Slashdot readers think that BlueCurve sucks, or that the new licensing scheme sucks, or that the mirrors suck, or whatever. They're in the business of selling copies and support of their Operating System, which is the Red Hat Operating System based on the Linux Kernel and the GNU tools and the X Windows GUI and the Gnome and KDE toolkits / environments.

    Personally I think Red Hat should abandon the idea of giving away copies entirely. Sell the damn things. That's what companies DO. The support idea is hogwash. Support is good cash but it won't replace copies sold. Red Hat needed to win acceptance and dominance, and so it gave away binary copies of their OS.

    The GPL, thank god, means that Red Hat DOES have to give away their SRPMS, at least to any code in their OS that is GPL'd. Their installer doesn't have to be GPL'd. Their makefiles and build scripts don't have to be GPL'd. They could legally give away nothing but the actual source code they used to build the finished product. That satisifes the GPL, both in letter and spirit.

    Personally I think the Open Source community should applaud Red Hat for acting like a company and proving that Open Source doesn't mean amateur, or broke.
  • AAFonts (Score:3, Funny)

    by DavittJPotter (160113) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @10:46AM (#4373472) Homepage Journal
    Anyone have a HOWTO link or a quick tip to get all my fonts to be AA under RedHat 8? Mozilla still looks like hammered dogshit.

    Thanks!
  • next theme (Score:5, Funny)

    by Sajma (78337) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @12:04PM (#4373973) Homepage
    It an attempt to look even more like Windows, the next RedHat release will incorporate the new "Bluescreen" theme...
  • by InodoroPereyra (514794) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @12:10PM (#4374010)
    I would like to say something that I hope is understood correctly. I love to see RH moving to usability (in addition to stability). I love RH as I consider them very useful members of the free software community. And I think there is little doubt that they are the most popular commercial distro.

    Now, that doesn't mean that redhat == linux. I am a bit disappointed to see that now that RH takes the step to the desktop (which IMHO they should have taken long ago, when they are actually preaching against Linux adoption in the desktop marker) everybody seem to be discovering that Linux can run on desktops. Hello, have you tried mandrake ?. Mandrake also has dektop integration, my menues look the same in GNOME and KDE. The task oriented menues pick the best apps wherever they come from. It really feels integrated. But it looks like RH invented the concept. And this is simply not true.

    I tried myself Mandrake a week ago with 9.0. It blew mi mind. Really really much more useable than anything else I tried. I switched my Laptop from RH 7.3 to ML 9.0. Then my home desktop. Now I'll switch my office workstation. I am configuring in 15 seconds with "point'n click" things that took me several minutes (if not hours) of HOWTOs and RTFM's and what not. Almost everything gets autodetected. SMB mounts, NFS mounts, hardware, it is really amazing.

    In general, the improvement in usability I feel in the transition RH 7.3 -> ML 9.0 is similar to the one I experienced back in the day when I switched Slackware -> RH 6.0

    I am not flaming RH, they do a damn fine distro. I am just saying, if you are looking for usability, may be you'll find rewarding to give Mandrake 9.0 a shot. The install will take no effort and little time. If you are looking for mission-critical stability, I cannot tell because I haven't used ML long enough to compare.

  • by jd142 (129673) on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @01:51PM (#4374923) Homepage
    I played with Mandrake 9 last week and I downloaded and installed RedHat 8 on Monday of this week. So I thought I'd share a few thoughts about the differences in the distributions.

    I've used Mandrake more, so I'm more familiar with its menu structures and way of doing things, but I hope my comments are objective. Or at least that my subjective opinions are biased for other reasons than my experience with Mandrake.

    Both the installations were pretty easy. The only slight edge I would give to Mandrake is that if you are adding or removing packages it will tell you immediately what other packages will be added or removed. With Redhat, you select your packages, then it tells you all at once what dependencies are required. My preference would be a combination of these two approaches so that I don't have to say ok constantly, like on Mandrake, but I can easily make a choice about whether I really do want to get rid of efax if kde-utils depends on it. For example.

    Another point against the Mandrake install is that I don't have the option to put in a grub password if I choose grub as my boot loader. And I couldn't find it in the preferences after install either.

    For the desktop user, neither one of these is really an issue.

    After install, I found Mandrake to be quicker and more responsive. I don't know if that is because Mandrake is using i586 compiled rpms and Redhat was 386. My test computer at work is a pII 300 with 196 megs of ram.

    At first I thought it was a kde vs gnome problem, but Redhat felt slower even with kde.

    As far as the look and feel, Mandrake had a reasonably consistent look to it for both gnome and kde. Yes, the themes were different, but that isn't a big deal. The menu structure, desktop icons and wallpaper were the same for both gnome and kde. While I like the idea of a common theme for both gnome and kde and think that RedHat could have executed it better. They did a good job, but I'm still up in the air on whether it was necessary.

    The Mandrake menu structure is more complicated than RedHats in that it has more choices and more submenus. The upside is that the labels are more specific, including a really basic "what can I do now" menu item for beginners.

    Mandrake also has a winner in the Mandrake Preferences application. Very well done. RedHat's configuration tools are just as impressive, and I prefer their theme and icons, but they aren't as convenient.

    The only big problem I had with RedHat was that Apache did start. A quick check of the logs showed that it couldn't resolve the domain name (dhcp_ipaddress as assigned by the dhcp server) but once I added it to /etc/hosts, it worked just fine. Mandrake's install of apache didn't have this problem.

    It's really a toss up as to which one I like. So I'll have to try suse next.

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