Rasterman Says Desktop Linux is Dead 776
anguished writes "The future of Linux, its best hopes for blowing past everything else on an x86 machine, once was located in a little Austrailai website, with a window manager called Enlightenment, which we all hoped to be good enough to build and configure. In an interview with Linux and Main, the recently silent Rasterman talks about GNOME, KDE, E, and his view that the future of Linux requires new playing fields."
Linux for Grandma and Uncle Jim-Bob (Score:5, Interesting)
For you and me, KDE and GNOME, along with any of the good standard distros makes GNU/Linux a great, pretty-easy-to-use choice.
But that's not good enough.
What I'd like to put together is Linux for Technophobes. The machine that Joe Schmoe, who has never used a computer, can walk in to Wal-mart, take home his new box, and be able to use it for email, web browsing, and word processing with zero assistance from anyone else.
He should open the box and find a simple (a la iMac) one-page sheet that shows him how to connect the mouse and keyboard.
A simple wizard sets up the net connection with him.
I'm picturing a very simple interface for the Basic mode. One big button that says Email and has a picture of a mailbox. Another for the web browser. Maybe a couple more apps, but not many.
And, if you click on the Advanced mode button in the corner, you get switched to KDE or GNOME.
Let me know what you think, and maybe we can put something like this together.
Linux is not dead, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
I must say, though, that my recent installation of SuSE 8.0 professional has renewed my enthusiasm for a first-rate desktop distribution that's also a great server environment.
From the animated startup icons, to the look and feel of the default K desktop, it's really the closest thing to the perfect distro that i've come across.
And the installation is easier and faster (despite the 7 CD's) than Mandrake's!
I think a lot of other distro's can take a lot of lessons from such a clean, smooth, stable distribution as SuSE has pumped out.
I can't wait for more!
raster's real contribution (Score:3, Interesting)
was raising the bar far higher than anyone ever before imagined.
Before e, wm's were not very interesting.
Re:Fact it (Score:2, Interesting)
It's fun.
_Just for the Fun_ was the title of Linus' book on doing the kernel.
Yeah, Windows has won. In another two years, Microsoft will completely own the Internet, you'll have to use IE to buy anything online, and Linux will be reduced to the same level of amateur ham radio.
It'll still be fun, though.
Re:Linux for Grandma and Uncle Jim-Bob (Score:1, Interesting)
Won't happen. When this guy goes on the newsgroups, email lists, or other web forums for help on linux, All he will hear are cries of 'RTFM' and worse.
The big problem with the adoption of Linux on the desktop us US. Quite frankly, the vast majority of us are assholes when it comes to those less 'elite' than us. Knock it off, RIGHT NOW, if you want linux to dominate the desktop.
The Seeds are Still Being Planted! (Score:5, Interesting)
At the start of each new school year, Microsoft hits our campus hard. They hang big banners, set up booths in the student center, and get the managers to make the on-campus computer store employees wear Microsoft t-shirts.
The BYU Unix Users Group gives its own response. This year, we're going to have a booth in the student center too. We're inviting students to bring their machines, and a group of volunteers will install Linux on their machines on the spot, for free.
We're making up flyers that read, ``Thrusday and Friday only! Get a FREE COPY of OpenOffice Suite version 1.0 (must have student ID or employee ID). Save HUNDREDS of dollars on your computer software this year!''
We're not just going to be pushing Linux, but Free Software in general. For those who are queasy about jumping full-force into Linux, we will offer to install Mozilla and OpenOffice on their Windows partitions, so they have some familiar ground to refer to when they boot into Linux.
The biggest debate in the group at the moment is which distributions to recommend to the newbies who bring their computers to the booth. I argue that since we're installing it for them, those who live on-campus and are on the university's network should use Debian because of the ease of maintenance. Others claim that Mandrake/RedHat/SuSE are more user friendly in general, and so they should be advocated instead.
In any case, we're doing what we can to let starving students know that they don't have to shell out hundreds of dollars to feed an addiction to proprietary software, when perfectly usable and functional Open Source alternatives exist for them. KDE+Mozilla+OpenOffice+Evolution is a powerful combination that makes Linux very much a viable desktop operating system.
Plus, anyone who switches over has the best support team around: the campus Unix Users Group! A perusal of our mailing list shows that we don't sleep at night until your problem is solved. :-)
Linux Desktop is dead - sort of (Score:3, Interesting)
* 40% seem open to hearing about Linux - they just want something easy to use, cheap, etc
* 20% are skeptical at first then very impressed when they see it ("If I set up a new business I'd definately use Linux")
* 30% would use it if it had the games they wanted
* 10% adamantly support Microsoft without knowing anything about it - perhaps just for the fun of opposing me
So in my experience, Linux has a very bright future for the desktop, at least for those people I encounter daily.
But I think the desktop is dead anyway. Rasterman says that embedded is the future - the level ground. This is true, but there is another path.
Do you think 10 years from now we are going to be using desktops too? I doubt it very much. Minority report perhaps gives us a snippet of the future. Computer "desktops" will go 3D. Maybe we will control our computer with virtual reality gloves and speak commands, or perhaps even use our mind for some simple tasks.
The future of computers will hopefully be power covered by simplicity. The way we think and use computers will change over time. We won't think "I need to use the computer to check e-mail". E-mail will become a daily part of life. Perhaps your house will say to you "You have 3 new messages". And then you respond "bring them up", and in front of you is projected an image of the e-mail, which could possibly be video rather than text. This kind of interface has no desktop. It is a simple and human way of interacting with computers. Desktops are cludgy things that expose people to some of the power of a comptuer that they don't need to see. What we need is a solution that has the simplest possible interface (like the e-mail scenario I gave) but has the potential for the user to hack it at it's base level (open source philosophy). That way the simplicity makes computers a powerful part of everyday life, but also gives the power to those who want/need to fiddle with the settings.
I think the desktop is dead. It's like having 4 remotes with 20 buttons each. In a house you hide your electricy cables, and you hide your water pipes. With computers however we expose people to desktops - which I believe are a patchwork solution. Eventually there will be no "computer" that people fight to use. There will be no monitor or keyboard. The interface will be more natural and human, integrated into the house or building.
Basically, desktops are getting close to their highest potential. The next phase will be something different, something that won't be solved by a new Windows release or by KDE 6.2 - it will require a shift in thought about how computers work, which will start off ugly at first and then progress into something beautiful looking. But as long as we have the desktop, our way of thinking will be constrained to 2 dimensions, which doesn't allow for the vast potential of computers in the near future.
(3dwm plug [3dwm.org])
Why switch? (Score:4, Interesting)
OS X (Score:3, Interesting)
First, XFree was a pain in the ass to get set up. I haven't tried it since 4.x, but 3.x sucked because all the setup programs wanted to compute "optimum" modelines for your monitor and display card, which inevitably never worked for me. This instead of what I wanted: resolution and refresh, from the list of VESA standard modes. Oh, but I can just edit this annoying config file, commenting out a bunch of lines for modes I don't want. If it's a pain in the ass for me, it's impossible for mom 'n' pop. Before I gave up two years ago, I think only TurboLinux 4.x had a config program with resolution/refresh selection.
Then there's getting the desktop environments running themselves. I didn't get very far on them, but in my experience, if you didn't pick the window manager favored by the distro, the others simply weren't configured to do anything useful. The only way to get menus to contain anything useful seemed to be by editing config files, and by this time I wasn't in any mood to search for more damn config files to edit.
So I decided to stay with Slackware as a lean server-only OS on my cheap x86 boxen, and wait for OS X, which at the time was just around the corner. I've had it running on a laptop since pre-release, and this week it's put new life into a creaky old Power Computing clone box. And I've got it running on the iMac my mom got a few months back. It just works, without a bunch of tweaking, partly because Macs have nowhere near the hardware nightmare that exists in the x86 world. And it's full of that unix-y goodness which let me kill a frozen AOL client on her machine remotely.
absolutely it is alive and well (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh sure, it is a bit slow selling on desktops but that will change as more and more consumers find out that Microsoft can more than double the cost of every PC you need.
The Microsoft office suite is $400 or so a seat. And, they are getting nasty about blocking the install on home, laptop and second or third systems by the same person. For $76, StarOffice suggests 5 personal installs. And, if $76 is too stiff, use OpenOffice.
Once the white box boys figure out that they can deliver all PCs with a free copy of OpenOffice and simply charge $15 or so to have it preinstalled, the casual market for the Microsoft Suite could dry up completely. And, the same may be true with large organizations such as corporations, governments, etc. Why spend $300-600 more per PC when you can go with linux, OpenOffice or StarOffice and double the number of new machines you buy?
Money is money.
And, right now money favors linux hands down.
Plus, that does not take into account the progress that Xandros, Lindows and others are making to expand the number of viable desktop systems under the linux banner.
The absence of QuickBooks, TurboTax and a few other key applications is a problem right now. GNUCash is fine. And, other software does substitute for much of what people think they need Microsoft for. But, it takes time for that information to filter out. But, it will filter out. Those who sell PCs (not the big OEMs) will be taking the lead packaging complete systems including software for a whole lot less than the Microsoft burden. Then customers can decide if the extra money is really worth it. It is not if you can make the choice.
And, if you write custom applications anyway, Java or Delphi/Kylix is right there to give you the same powerful GUI based RAD development systems you expect on Microsoft stuff.
The more machines you need the bigger the price benefit helps linux.
And, if you think that consumer PC buyers really want to pay twice the price for a system just because it has some Microsoft software on it that they rarely use, you are crasy. The typical consumer simply is unaware of what they can buy and use. That will change.
Desktop is dead! (Score:4, Interesting)
I couldn't agree more with the parent poster. It's not "Linux on the Desktop" that's dead, but the DESKTOP itself that's dead (or dying).
Normal people don't want to use computers, in general. They want to do tasks that they consider worthwhile. They want to communicate with others asynchronously. CURRENTLY, this is done through email, and CURRENTLY it requires a computer. Who says email NEEDS to require a computer? What if your email could be read to you automatically when you walked into your apartment? Most people would see this as a usability improvement over:
1. Sit down
2. Turn computer on
3. Wait
4. Double-click
5. Wait while phone dials
6. Click
7. Click
8. Scroll
9. Click
10. Click
11. Stand up
People don't want to use computers. They want to get things done. They want to create letters and presentations. Currently this requires a computer , a printer, and a lot of typing. Does it have to be this way? No! A lot of research has gone into voice recognition and computer vision. In the future we'll just describe a document or presentation in basic terms, using a natural interface like voice or gestures, and a device will spit out what was requested.
I predict computing's next "killer app" will be something that allows people to get rid of their computers.
It's the usability, stupid! (Score:4, Interesting)
As a power user on OS X I don't feel constricted by this. I still run X and various Unix tools thanks to fink and I find the UI to be straightforward and easy to use. In other words, the simplicity helps me get on with stuff rather than wasting hours reading through FAQs or HOWTOs just trying to figure how to share a folder or whatnot.
The same cannot be said for a Linux desktop. I'm constantly wasting my time trying to find some stupid option in the zillion control panels KDE/GNOME puts up for me, or swearing at the stupid help system that doesn't integrate distro help with KDE/GNOME help with manpage help etc., or scratching my head trying to figure out to get my scanner to be recognized, or grinding my teeth because the distro fills its multiple menus of apps with cryptic apps with names starting with g or k.
It doesn't have to be that way. Unless Linux becomes usable for everyone, not just experts it will never get on the deskop. Besides, the more users there are, the more jobs there are for admins and developers to meet demand. I would have thought it's in everyone's interest to see it succeed.
AOL Machine (Score:2, Interesting)
yes, no, maybe?
depends upon what you need to run (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure, many more are available for Microsoft.
But, if you fail to point out the customer you claim to be talking about, no one will know how wrong you are.
I have not used Microsoft for any meaningful work for years.
And, 80-90% of all computer users only need a browser, an office suite and a few other utilities. Those are available for linux.
When you make a general statement and expect everyone to think it applies to them you only disqualify yourself as a consultant.
Rule number one is: You ask the customer what applications they need. Then and only then can you conclude which products might serve those needs.
The general claim is categorically false.
Rasterman is dead (Score:3, Interesting)
The Linux desktop success does not depend on how many "Grandmas and Grandpas" adopt it! Linux on the desktop is succeeding, and increasingly so, because corporations are switching to it enmass. And, as the stockmarket continues to tank, they'll be avoiding the unnecessary expense of License 6 and hardware upgrades by increasing their use of Linux through out their entire corporate structure. OpenOffice has been the catalyst that triggered the decisions around the globe to make the switch.
The paradigm shift is NOW in high gear! IT departments that were once staunch MS shops now openly criticize Microsoft and its various schemes to make money off their backs and at the expense of their security and privacy, and have begun deploying Linux in more than just server rooms.
While Microsoft's illegal monopoly activities, along with their theft of software and demographic data, continue unchecked because of a compliant Bush DOJ, so does their corporate greed and arrogance. People have had enough. They've seen through the PR and FUD. They've connected the dots leading from abusive EULAs to loss of supposedly 'unalienable' rights, and they don't like it.
The only thing remaining for the people to see is that the accounting principles used by Enron and WorldCom CEOs were not invented by Enron but borrowed from Microsoft. The NASDAQ will show even bigger losses when Microsoft is forced to subtract programmer payrolls from their profits and not hide them as future stock options. The following URL contains a prophetic analysis, made in 1999, of today's stockmarket situation.
http://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html
"Microsoft is granting excessive amounts of stock options that are allowing the company to understate its costs. You might ask yourself, what would happen to Microsoft's stock price if the public suddenly realized that they lost $10 billion in 1999 rather than earning the reported $7.8 billion? If 80 percent of its stock value or roughly $400 billion is the result of a pyramid scheme, one might also ask what kind of effect this could have on the retirement system. It is also important to note that this is a relatively new situation that did not occur before 1995. Microsoft has always been a highly valued stock and that might have been justified prior to 1995.
This situation is not about stock valuation, product quality or whether or not Microsoft has monopoly power in its markets. Nor is it part of a pro or anti-Microsoft movement. This situation is instead a shining example of financial fraud and corruption enabled by bad government policy. If not quickly and aggressively addressed, we will all be losers as credibility in our financial markets is destroyed.
Bill Gates has quitely been unloading MS stock at the rate of $500 million per month for several months, begining just before the Enron debacle became public -- talk about your insiders trading! Other MS executivers are probably doing the same.
Truely, the end of Microsoft is near, and the stockmarket decline will certainly hasten it!
Re:Filesystem layout comparison and info (Score:2, Interesting)
See, if one was to try and create a TechnophoveLinux, he should better make sure that none of the above stuff is exposed to the user. Yet this does not mean that you need to change FHS or LSB -- you only need to make things transparent for the user. Make sure that $PATH is updated. Give nice appealing names to directories under $HOME. In a `luser' mode disallow things like ls -a from happening (or maybe even just create a bunch of shell scripts that do dir
To cut it short -- one could make Linux (*BSD) look completely innocent. It would only take lots of time and quite a bit of creativity.
Typical Rasterman (Score:3, Interesting)
Back in the day, when FVWM'95 was the state-of-the-art, I got into contact with him because he was doing something new and cool.
I recommended that he not just create a WM, but a desktop environment. I was willing to help him do it. He obviously was good at making the widgets and all, but didn't have anything to help apps communicate with one another.
He was uninterested. The future, he figured, was in the WM.
It doesn't surprise me that since not too many are very interested in his WM (Sawfish and KWM are far more oft-used) -- that he thinks Linux desktop is dead and has no future.
He still doesn't get it.
But never mind. He's a techie. His genius doesn't lie in predicting the future of Linux, it lies in creating cool assembly-tweaked embedded whatsit solutions (as you can tell, where my genius *DOESN'T* lie). Let him be, but for god's sake, don't ask him the future of Linux.
You'll get the same drivel I got from him back in the 90's.