Codeweavers Releases Crossover Office

rleyton writes "Codeweavers have just announced Crossover Office, a Wine derivitive which allows MS-Office 97 & 2000 products as well as Lotus Notes to run without a Windows OS License. If it's as cool as the Crossover plugin product, then it could mean a significant step forward in Wine's progress." NewsForge got hold of a final beta copy a couple of days ago and has a Crossover Office review up already, and DesktopLinux.com has one too. This looks pretty cool, yes. Now if a PHB tells you can't run Linux, because you need Office - tell him you'll save money by not needing a Windows license, and call still use Office.

Till MS changes the license

[nuggz]

Well this will last until Office integratees with windows. Or they change their license to require that you ONLY run MS Office on MS Windows, to fufil DRM requirements.

M$ is gonna be pissed!

[CaptainPhong]

Of course, it's an obvious point that this will really piss off Microsoft, and they may have some legal ground to kick around on. They may be able to say, for example, that such software facilitates piracy and allows people to weasel out of the Windows license requirement in their Office (or whichever) license agreement.

OTOH, maybe the Justice Department might find that requiring a MS Windows installation when it is unecessary on a technological level is some sort of reverse bundling (i.e. forcing users to buy a copy of Windows, even though it is technically possible to use Office without it). Explotation of their (near) monopoly on office suites to sell more copies of Windows!

Office for Linux on Corporate world?

[doubtless]

It is not likely that any companies who do not want to run Linux on desktop is going to run it cos now Office can be run on Linux. They use Windows to have the support from MS (interesting, but true), that is also the reason they buy DELL and HP but not just any cheaper beige box. They want to be able to have a number to call when Office on Windows has a problem.

Really, a PC's life in the corporate world is perhaps 3 years. $2000 compared to the productivity lost by the employee whose salary is at least 40 times more than the PC in that same 3 year span is just not worth it.

They just don't want to take the chance. It's a pity.

Why the timeline?

[Kope]

Here's what I can't figure out: Office 2000 will run on Win95. That means that to make Office 2000 (or damn near any other product out there that runs on the windows tree) all that needs to be done is support an API that is now almost 7 years old.

One of the great claims of the OSS movement is how RAPID OSS programs are developed. Yet WINE, which is one of the larger OSS efforts out there, can not achieve this seemingly meager goal year after year.

Indeed, the only thing that seems to have kept WINE anywhere close to being on-target is the support of private companies who contribute their code back to the WINE tree. Some of these companies,like Codeweavers are decidedly on the OSS bandwagon. But others, like Corel aren't (though they did play nice with OSS, to their credit).

In the meantime, closed source efforts to port similarly complex API's succeed in much less time with far higher quality results (VM Ware anyone!).

Can someone explain how the failure of a project to hit a stationary target (the Win95 API has not changed though implimentation bugs may have) after such a lengthy period of time is anything but a proof by counter example of the grandiose claims of how much better OSS is for just this sort of development?

Interesting times

[Pac]

I think Microsoft is sure to notice this one. We can only guess what their answer will be. A change in Office EULA forbidding use in Operating Systems other than the one the software is for, Windows or MacOS (but they probably can't change this for products already bought)? A cease and desist letter from their lawyers to CodeWeavers, quoting DMCA, EULAs, the Bible, the British Common Law and The Road Ahead? A cry for help to Congress to add a clause outlawing Linux, *BSD and any free OS in existence or to be developed to some law, any law, being currently discussed? Or just a "business as usual" attitude, a new marketing campaign pitching Office to Linux users?

On the other hand, judging by the test (they used RC1, not 1.0), this software still have some way to go before it can be said to be ready. But it is already a huge step forward. Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Explorer running correctly under Linux are a huge incentive for corporations willing to move their desktops to Linux. Once there, moving people to Star/OpenOffice or even the recent gobe will be just a matter of corporate policy and time for the bean counters to add up the license savings of the switch out of Windows and the license savings to be gained by switching out of Office.

Re:Till MS changes the license

[joneshenry]

From what I vaguely recall all Microsoft EULAs for Windows products already have clauses restricting their use to properly licensed copies of Windows. This also applies to their DLLs. We'll just have to see whether Microsoft can or will be able to strictly enforce this.

Re:Why the timeline?

[cjpez]

I think the basic problem is that of time. If you're hired by a company to work on a piece of software, it's not a problem to spent 40+ hours a week doing nothing but working away at the software. Whereas if you have just volunteers, they'd probably very willingly spend 40+ hours a week if they could, but eventually they've gotta go to an actual job and get paid so they can eat.

Now just because you're working for a company doesn't mean that you can't be doing OSS development, and I think that OSS development is still a much more "productive" way to develop software, because in addition to the employees you've got working on the software, you'll cultivate a base of external coders who are excited about the project and care about it, too.

For people NOT on a company payroll to develop software, I think OSS is really the only way to go. Would Wine be doing any better if the volunteers decided to close the source and keep it to themselves? I suspect it'd be much further "behind" than it is right now (although I'm sure the Wine developers would object to the word "behind" there; sorry guys).

It's not the development model that's holding the software back; it's the available time to do it in. (How's that for a bold statement? <g>)

Tough call

[JMZero]

If Office was indeed the last app a business needed to move to Linux (and I think that's fairly common), support via Crossover may well be just what the doctor ordered. However, I don't think it's likely the decision will come down to the price of Crossover.

There are also the other advantages (security, stability) over Windows that Linux offers.

I'd like to see a comparison of stability between, say, "Office 2000 running on Windows 2000" and "Office 2000 running on Crossover on (whatever)". I don't know if it would turn out the way you think (despite Linux being more stable in general).

I don't know how much play Linux advocates are getting out of security issues right now. I think you'll need to see another big (ie. well covered by regular news channels) security breach or two before security really becomes a factor in migration again.

The other consideration is future. Many businesses spend much more than $55/desktop to keep current with the latest version of Office. Is Crossover going to work for the next version? Only MS (well, depending on how courts move) really knows the answer to that.

Who knows, maybe MS will just start selling Office for Linux. Could happen...

.

Re:Why the timeline?

[Chang]

> all that needs to be done is support an API that is now almost 7 years old

This is absolutely false. The very act of installing Office 2000 on Win95 extends the Win32 API. When you install, you not only get Windows Installer added to the system, you also get updated version of DLL's installed under your WINDOWS directory.

What kind of Application installs OS updates without informing the user or giving you a choice?

Perhaps you never noticed why mouse scroll wheels started working in all sorts of dialogs and whatnot even if you never installed Intellimouse? The answer is that Microsoft applications routinely extend the OS and API.

Lastly, the WINE team has never said their target is to emulate the Original Win95 API. Even if they had done that, they would be dependant on the new DLL files, the same as Win95 is today.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[kypper]

I don't have that much time, but:
"Despite these facts of life, Microsoft has decided to introduce a new licensing scheme that forces organisations to upgrade products according to rigid timescales or pay higher prices."

http://www.vnunet.com/Features/1127149

Re:Well I'll be damned

[Archie Steel]

Probably not. I have anti-aliasing on my Linux desktop (which looks incredible thanks to the Xft hack - much better than anything I've seen on Windows so far) but I don't see any anti-aliasing on Crossover Plugin when I start it. From what I can tell, Windows and Linux handle fonts in a completely different manner.

Perhaps it is possible to write an AA plugin for Crosssover, though...that would be sweet (even though it still won't look as good as my hacked gdkxft fonts...)

I'm still going to buy this, mind you. StarOffice is great, but sometimes I just need total compatibility (and also it loads faster).

Post Useful Reviews please

[Kruemelmo]

Folks,

it would be really useful if people would post reviews. Some short ones have been posted, but "rocks as hell"... well.

Any power users out there? Are there problems with fonts as told in the review of the beta? Can you create Access databases? Do macros/VBA programs work? Does the menu editor work? Do images in tables print well from word? Spell check? Help? Does the mouse feel right? Clipboard? Can you embed excel tables? Do ODBC connections from Access databases work? ...

Thanks!

Poor point

[Anonymous Coward]

Most companies don't chase after infringers. They go after the enablers. It's called contributory infringement, and it's what the DMCA is all about.

Kind of like criminal conspiracy to catch mobsters, who never really did anything wrong.

Can you use it to "centralize" Office?

[pamar]

Most of the messages I've seen so far seem to imply that the cost saving of not needing Windows are not enough to justify the switch for business users. My question is, would it be possible (both technically and license-wise) to install this plugin (plus office) on just one big linux server and having multiple users log-in and use it through X-windows? In this case I suppose that the savings would be greater, and you could also ensure centralized back-ups without any problem. So, would it work?

The Gimp. Why didn't I think of that?

[Lendrick]

I'm tempted to post this anonymously to avoid the inevitable Trolls and Flamebaits this will earn me... but I think I'll put my high karma to good use and stand publicly behind my opinion.

Simple fact: The Gimp, like many other Open Source programs, has a poor user interface. Unlike Photoshop, which, despite its massive feature-set, is easy for an average user to pick up, the Gimp's functions are all buried in multiple levels of right-click menus. It also uses an annoying multi-window interface that clutters your taskbar horribly. The simple fact is that Photoshop is just a lot more pleasant and easy to use.

Likewise, MS Office is a much smoother experience than StarOffice (which, admittedly, has improved by leaps and bounds since its thrice-damned 5.0 incarnation).

Now, I'm behind Open Source 100%, but I don't get so caught up in my zealotry that I lose sight of ease of use issues. If an everyday user can't sit down and use an Open Source program just as easily as they could use a proprietary one, then they're not going to want to switch. It's as simple as that.

Could be a great multiuser solution

[IGnatius T Foobar]

This could be a great solution for multiuser systems. Think about this: the cost of a Windows server license, combined with the cost of CAL's, combined with Terminal Server licensing, combined with Citrix licensing (if applicable) is tremendous. If you could run Linux on, say, a quad Xeon, add the Crossover Office extension, and install Microsoft Office ... you now have a multiuser installation of Office that can be shared to multiple users. You can even keep it legal by paying for as many instances of Office as you're running, and you're still saving many thousands of dollars.

Take it from me, I run boxes at a hosting center where some of our customers are ASP's. Terminal Server licensing is an absolute nightmare. Being able to share out Win32 apps without paying OS license fees would be a very big deal.