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Linux 2.4.15 is out; Linux 2.5.0 has also begun. 211

Posted by chrisd
from the two-and-a-half-better-than-xp dept.
jbondjr writes: "It appears 2.4.15 is released. It's not quite updated on kernel.org's main page, but it is there if you dig through the tree. You can find 2.4.15 on one of your friendly Kernel.org Mirrors (note the 2.4.15 Changelog) From the 2.5 readme: "Linux-2.5.0 is exactly the same as 2.4.15, except for a version number change." So, enjoy the The 2.5 Tree
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Linux 2.4.15 is out; Linux 2.5.0 has also begun.

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  • by Chuck Chunder (21021) on Friday November 23, 2001 @03:23AM (#2602980) Homepage Journal
    so they can be cool and trendy and be on the development tree while it's still stable?
  • Is there a way to use a new(er) kernel with XFree86 4.0.3 DRI? It seems my mb agpgart (VIA KT266) is not supported by 2.4.7 but it may be by 2.4.14.
  • Turkey! (Score:4, Funny)

    by iworm (132527) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:13AM (#2603006)
    Build 2.4.15 with some modules. Look where it installs them... (Clue: Think when it was released)

    Linus is a little joker, isn't he? ;-))
  • Preemptible kernel (Score:5, Informative)

    by ThatComputerGuy (123712) <amritNO@SPAMtransamrit.net> on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:16AM (#2603013) Homepage
    Don't forget the Preemptible Kernel [tech9.net] patch. This will reduce latencies and overall make a desktop machine feel snappier.

    From what I hear, however, it's not recommended for servers where bandwidth is more important. But then again, you wouldn't be putting a bleeding edge kernel on there anyway, now would you?
    • by chabotc (22496) <chabotc@gmaPERIODil.com minus punct> on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:22AM (#2603034) Homepage
      Also, as we speak, the rml preempt patches for 2.4.15 have not yet been released, and the older ones (2.4.15-pre7) do not apply cleanly to the 2.4.15 tree. If you want to use that patch, wait a few hours/days. (they are very much worth using on a interactive desktop machine).
    • by Anonymous Coward
      There's some argument for it on servers too - On a lot of servers, it's not the absolute max throughput that matters, it's how quickly it give the appearance of responding to requests - it's often better if the users of a server can immediately connect and download at a few K a second, than if they can't connect in a reasonable time in the first place. - so, even on a server, latency can override throughput considerations.
    • So, this would be a version which when a new kernel is released, pauses all the low-priority task, upgrades the kernel, then happily continues?

      Kinda useful given the number of releases :-)
      • Actually, there was a thread or seven on the linux-kernel mailing list about this a couple months ago. However, it didn't go much of anywhere, as to upgrade a kernel on the fly would take some major code-fu (chucking variables into reserved spots in memory and hoping that you could keep track of them while you're running without a kernel)...
    • I'm interested in trying this, but I'm running XFS on my / - does anyone know about how well the patches work with XFS, if at all?
      • by areguly (177525)

        I use it flawlessy for a few weeks now. A few lines are pushed down in the source, but that doesn't hurd. I recommend it.

        I apply first xfs then preempt patch.
    • I like Robert M. Love's Preempt patch...I've used it for the past month and it works well. Unfortunately for me and some others there are two issues that will make it hard to add into the main kernel tree (maybe 2.5 as an option?);
      1. * Kernel modules that aren't SMP safe aren't preempt kernel safe.
      2. * Specifically, the binary part of the Alcatel/Thompson Speedtouch ADSL modems aren't SMP safe.

      There is probably nothing that RML can do anything about that. Alcatel needs to look into it, and consider releasing a fully open module, so that thier modems are better supported under Linux and other non-Linux OSs.

    • Curiously trying this patch on a 2.4.13 machine a while back, I found myself in the very unpleasant situation of having about 50% packet loss towards that host (lan where I have absolutely 0% loss regulary)

      No-one can explain this, but two very identical setups, only differing by this patch...
    • From what I hear, however, it's not recommended for servers where bandwidth is more important. But then again, you wouldn't be putting a bleeding edge kernel on there anyway, now would you?

      It depends what kind of "server" is involved. Where one is mainly running interactive clients (or X terms) then such a patch might be very useful.
      But for a file server, web server (serving mostly static content), email server, web proxy, etc. You probably don't want to apply it.
      Hopefully soon this will become a compile option, rather than a patch.
    • There is already a 2.4.15pre9 patch [kernel.org] here [kernel.org]. As always, please use the mirrors!

      This patch is not 100% clean, but the only reject is on an already patched file.

      patching file CREDITS Reversed (or previously applied) patch detected! Assume -R? [n] Apply anyway? [n] Skipping patch.
  • by barneyfoo (80862) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:17AM (#2603014)
    Just look at the kernel name, for 2.4.15

    You'd think it would be 2.4.15, consistent with all other kernels.

    but NoooOOooo...

    he has to name it:

    2.4.15-greased-turkey
    • If you use make bzlilo then you will end up with the error:

      Fatal: Label "2415-greased-turkey" is too long

      While it's easy enough to fix (edit lilo.conf), I bet this is going to cause problems for someone.

      • really, I am.

        but anyway, last I checked "make install" put bzImage into /boot/vmlinuz and System.map into /boot/System.map, and move your old vmlinuz and System.map to vmlinuz.old and System.map.old, then reran lilo.

        Never used make bzlilo myself. Sounds like one of those features of the kernel you really shouldn't use, but some people do, and if you do use it you should really know what you're doing, but I guess that should be true of anyone compiling their own kernel.
  • Todo list? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by LinuxGeek8 (184023) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:21AM (#2603027) Homepage
    I'm sure there isn't a Todo list. And I assume there never will be one.

    I was just wondering (read karma-whoring) what the first big change in 2.5.0 will be.
    I guess cml2, the new config/make system.

    Some other changes that might be expected;
    Jfs and Xfs in the main kernel,
    Fixing the latency, and maybe make the kernel pre-emptive.
    There will be a scsi layer rewrite and maybe a ide layer rewrite (that's correct?),
    • Re:Todo list? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:24AM (#2603035) Homepage
      Don't forget the possibilities of (in no particular order):
      • ALSA sound
      • MOSIX
      • BTTV2/V4L2
      • ALSA Re:Todo list? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Laven (102436)
        Does anyone know the reason why they haven't included ALSA in the main kernel yet?

        I finally switched my Red Hat 7.2 and recompiled KDE with Alsa support, and things are SO MUCH nicer than free-OSS. I can finally use Real Player or Quicktime Player (via CrossOver) seemlessly with KDE. No more fussing with artsdsp to get Real Player to work, or terminate artsd in order for Wine audio to play.
    • Re:Todo list? (Score:5, Informative)

      by chabotc (22496) <chabotc@gmaPERIODil.com minus punct> on Friday November 23, 2001 @06:06AM (#2603137) Homepage
      To get a good feel for what the posible new cool things will be in the 2.5 kernel, check out the video / subscripts from the 2.5 kernel summit a while back. They mention

      Raw access to block devices (DB work)

      SCTP (nice network tricks)

      Block layer redesign (scsi, ide, etc)

      High performance file systems (xfs, jfs, etc)

      Re-worked network driver API

      Hot-Plug Devices (pci/pcmcia)

      Kernel build system

      Intergration of some NSA secure linux idea's (mandatory ACL's, etc)

      Async-IO addons (non posix conforment)

      ACPI / Power management (needed for hot plug?)
      And a lot of other topics. 'Specialy make sure to check out the video's. They provide some nice insights into the wo the file systems (xfs, etc), raw access to block devices (oracle was hot on this i think),rld of kernel hero's ;-)

      check out this link to the lwn article [lwn.net] for more details, descriptions and links.

      • Re:Todo list? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by slittle (4150)
        And what about the firewall code? I don't know about you guys, but I just love spending a large chunk of a weekend learning the new firewall every time a new kernel series arrives. It just wouldn't be the same if it didn't fsck up my firewall scripts...
        • And what about the firewall code? I don't know about you guys, but I just love spending a large chunk of a weekend learning the new firewall every time a new kernel series arrives. It just wouldn't be the same if it didn't fsck up my firewall scripts...

          What are you talking about? You can still run 2.0.x ipfwadm stuff on the latest 2.4 kernel. Likewise 2.2.x ipchains stuff. iptables has backwards compatibility. If you want to use the newer interface, you can. No one's forcing you to.

          From linux-2.4.14/Documentation/Configure.help:

          pchains (2.2-style) support
          CONFIG_IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS
          This option places ipchains (with masquerading and redirection
          support) back into the kernel, using the new netfilter
          infrastructure. It is not recommended for new installations (see
          `Packet filtering'). With this enabled, you should be able to use
          the ipchains tool exactly as in 2.2 kernels.

          If you want to compile it as a module, say M here and read
          Documentation/modules.txt. If unsure, say `N'.

          ipfwadm (2.0-style) support
          CONFIG_IP_NF_COMPAT_IPFWADM
          This option places ipfwadm (with masquerading and redirection
          support) back into the kernel, using the new netfilter
          infrastructure. It is not recommended for new installations (see
          `Packet filtering'). With this enabled, you should be able to use
          the ipfwadm tool exactly as in 2.0 kernels.

          If you want to compile it as a module, say M here and read
          Documentation/modules.txt. If unsure, say `N'.

      • raw access to block devices (oracle was hot on this i think)

        Our DBAs tell me that under the latest versions of Oracle, there is no performance increase on raw versus cooked partitions, and that it's therefore not worth the trouble anymore.
        • Perhaps in your situation, but there are likely users for whom that is NOT the case.

          Think large enterprises which have huge databases. Oracle might know better about how to organize and access and cache the data than the OS does. The OS buffer could make things LESS efficient. Think read-ahead in situations where it is not appropriate.

          Sometimes you just need the OS to get out of the way.
          • Perhaps in your situation, but there are likely users for whom that is NOT the case.

            Think large enterprises which have huge databases.


            Right, like us. These databases are multi-terabyte. There are only a hundred and change larger businesses than us in the world. We've got more IT employees than many large telecommunications firms, and more airplanes than all but one of the largest airlines in the world.

            I'm talking about FedEx, and the DBAs in question work on the largest projects in the company, including the one that does all the billing for FedEx Express.

            They're quite adamant about the performance of the latest Oracle on cooked vs. raw.
    • Re:Todo list? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by rasactive (528598)
      Last I recall, there was an article on Slashdot where Linus described what he wanted in the 2.5 kernel. Some karma whore can post it, but I believe one of the goals was to eliminate human configuration, thus eliminating human error.
      But I could be wrong.
  • Use the mirrors (Score:2, Informative)

    by jbondjr (107736)
    Looks like kernel.org has updated their main page and their 100Mbps connection looks pretty maxed.

    http://www.kernel.org/mirrors/

    Sorry, seldom post, so don't know how to make a link on /. Also surprised my first submission got accepted :)
  • ext3 (Score:5, Informative)

    by ma2tias (302579) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:31AM (#2603056)
    Now, for the people who use ext3:
    You will not need to download ac/ext3 patches anymore to get your journaling running.
    • One thing worth mentioning, that it seems isn't well known, is that ext3 support journaling of the real data on the disc as well as the metadata. The other journalling filesystems only do metadata I think, so you might want to consider ext3 for filesystems where you have really critical data.
    • in 2.4.15 you just can't umount your system. There is a workaround I found the other day.

      How to shutdown 2.4.15

      Bring your machine to init 1 on the command line. Make sure that there are no files in /var/lock and /tmp/.X11* if you are running X. Then umount -n /var and /tmp if you have them on seperate partitions. Then umount -n al other mount points. And then shutdown. This will help prevent the nasty fsck. However it is a real PIA.

      There should also be noted that there is a nasty bug in ECP in 2.4.14 adn 2.4.15 and 2.5.0 that may cause problems with devices that need ecp like webcams.

  • I hope that all the kbuild stuff gets in soon !!!

    regards

    john jones
    • by brunes69 (86786)

      Quick question: I was wondering why there is so much fuss about this KBuild thing, and why there is going to be so much time / resouces spent on it in 2.5. I have never had a problem with the current kernel config, and find it quite intuitive (make xconfig especially). I can think of many more things which I would think deserve a higher priority than this. Someone care to enlighten me?

      • The changes aren't so much for you the user, as they are for the developers and maintainers. The current system is a bit of a tangled mess and considered a hack. "make dep" is practically broken, configuration, compiling, pretty much everything takes longer than it should.

        But the user should see some changes as well. The configuration will be streamlined, and some level of automatic configuration will be available. According to Eric the new system will make it impossible to create invalid configurations. Also, a single "make" will compile everything you need, including modules and dependencies. Parallel builds will be improved and it will be possible to build individual sections instead of recompiling the whole kernel if need be.
        However, there is a big gripe some have with CML2; it's (currently) implemented in python.
  • by bockman (104837) on Friday November 23, 2001 @05:52AM (#2603109)
    My impression, as a linux user, is that with 2.4 we (well...they) have moved to a three stage development cycle:
    • alpha : the development tree
    • beta : developers realise that they have done all the tests they could and call 'stable' the development tree. More users starts using the new kernel (users which would not have used a 'development' release). New bug and problems come out; some of them may not be fixable with small patches, but may require some strong re-enginering.
    • final : the developers and beta users are satisfied with the current performances of the stable kernel ( and maybe also tired of working on it ;^>). The stable kernel is given to the maitainers. A new development kernel begins.
    This is not a bad model. Maybe the kernel is getting too big for the two-stage model. And maybe too many people are using Linux for critical business, starving the 'development' releases of the testers it needs to get production quality.
  • Dammit! I just downloaded 2.4.14 and recompiled not more than a few days ago, and time to do the same thing all again. Seems like the kernels are coming out faster than one can keep up with them. =)
  • Stable or not? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by doorbot.com (184378) on Friday November 23, 2001 @06:06AM (#2603135) Journal
    Since the kernel is now on the 2.4 series kernel, is it officially considered a "stable" kernel yet? With the recent discussions of the VM system and pre-emptable kernels, I wonder if the latest version is stable enough for my server. I'm still running 2.2.19 and it's working fine, but I'm looking forward to upgrading some time in the next couple weeks (maybe).

    One big thing I'm looking for a fix for (hopefully with the 2.4.x series) is for the SNMP/netstat info to use more than 32 bit integers to store the number of bytes transferred. Mine keeps resetting after 4 GB transferred and over 6 months that would've added up, but right now it resets itself back to zero after it hits the 4 billion byte limit.

    Also, the SMP is supposed to be better, but will that really make a difference on a server which does mild web serving, other miscellaneous duties, and who's primary purpose is serving Unreal Tournament games? As of now, it doesn't look like UT takes advantage of both processors, it just uses one...
    • It's probably stable.

      But why take my word for it (or anyone else's) - download, compile, install, stress test, use.

      If you don't have a test machine - wait a while, read the mailing list, see if anyone reports bad uptime / errors which affect you.

      If you're so worried about stability, I don't see any other real option for you. Certainly, it seems naive to consider an 'official' designation of 'stable' sufficient to jump in with both feet. Either test it yourself, or read other peoples reports - there's plenty of them.

      My experience? I have had no trouble with the 2.4 series, except for VM probs in 2.4.9 which brought my desktop machine to a short lived pause once or twice. I installed 2.4.13 last night and am hoping Andrea's VM will cure this.
    • Re:Stable or not? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ami Ganguli (921) on Friday November 23, 2001 @08:07AM (#2603354) Homepage

      Stable is totally relative. The 2.2.x tree has had a lot longer to mature. It'll probably be a year before 2.4.x is as solid. This is true with most operating systems. If you have a mission critical server that's been working flawlessly on 2.2.x, then you have no reason to upgrade to 2.4.x. Since the old series is still maintained with security fixes, you can stay with the old kernel for a long time.

      On the other hand, if you're installing a new machine you might benefit from some of the 2.4.x features. As long as the machine isn't really critical, you might as well go for it. If you're starting a project that won't be deployed for another six months or so, then 2.4.x is definately the way to go. Likewise on a desktop machine.

      In your particular case, you need to evaluate how stable your Unreal Tournament server needs to be. Will you go out of business if it crashes? If not then I'd go ahead and upgrade. Chances are it'll be rock solid, and if not you can always go back.

    • Preemptability is just a feature that you can add to your kernel to make kernel threads preemptable (using the in-place SMP infrastructure).

      Preemptability is not:

      -an attempt to fix a bug in linux or make linux more stable
      -a way to make Linux slightly more advanced than MacOS
      -Something that is desperately needed

      Preemptability is:

      -A way to make processes that have long execution threads inside the kernel not take away from higher priority user-space threads (priority is not the same as niceness).

      So PLEASE, lets stop this bandying about of "preemptability" when you know not of what you speak.
    • IIRC, SNMP integers are coded in ASN.1 standard, I wonder if your 4 bytes limitation doesn't come from the SNMP protocol itself ...
      • snmpv2c and v3 (most people just use v2c) DOES support counter64.

        I suspect its the kernel that's only keeping the 'ifconfig' counters to 32bits. the ucd-snmp pkg (the most popular) supports 64bit counters for the o/s's that have real native support for that.

        being an snmp guy myself, I'll take a look at this. if, in fact, the linux kernel DOES support 64bit ifconfig counters, then its trivial to wrap that support back into the ucd pkg.

  • hard packed versions (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ma2tias (302579) on Friday November 23, 2001 @06:07AM (#2603139)
    The readme file in 2.5.0 says:

    Linux-2.5.0 is exactly the same as 2.4.15,
    except for a version number change.
    Subsequent releases diverge, with Marcelo Tosatti
    maintaining the stable 2.4.x kernels, while the 2.5.x kernels are for development work.

    and looking at the filesizes we find what we expect that

    linux-2.5.0.tar. takes up 129 699 840 bytes
    linux-2.4.15.tar takes up 129 699 840 bytes

    are the same. But if we look at the packed versions

    linux-2.5.0.tar.bz2 23 748 963
    linux-2.4.15.tar.bz2 23 747 061

    A difference of 1902 bytes

    linux-2.5.0.tar.gz 29 404 635
    linux-2.4.15.tar.gz 29 404 736

    A difference of -101 bytes

    How come?
  • Must have been a week since I installed 2.4.14 - to long a time :) This will be a nice weekend, I guess.

    What I really want to know: how is ext3 doing? And why is Alan still patching .13?

    Hmm, hopefully will be able to leave work early this evening...

    Cheers, Lars
  • Request for 2.5.x (Score:2, Insightful)

    by redcliffe (466773)
    I want support for ATAPI/IDE CD Burners. The SCSI emulation solution isn't the best solution I don't think. That's the extent of my wishlist. I'll be happy with whatever else Linus gives us in his infinite wisdom. Anyone else got a wishlist for 2.5.x?
    • Actualy, it would be quite simple to support ATAPI burners (since ATAPI is already supported). However the downside is in the userspace code. Most of the populair tools (read: cdrdao and cdrecord) are written with scsi interfaces in mind.. adding IDE writer support to those would be a lot more time consuming.

      So scratch that of your linux 2.5.x wishlist, and put it on your cdrecord TODO list ;-)
    • It's actually not emulation, but transport. ATAPI is actually SCSI, implemented on top of IDE. Remember those parallel port zip drives? They are SCSI over parallel port. SCSI "emulation" simply lets userspace apps talk to the devices in their "native" tounge.
  • For some reason I couldn't get the loopback block device module building in 2.4.14 on my laptop (depmod chocked on undefined symbols)

    works again in 2.4.15

    There is also a new (at last! almost 4 months since .29) 3.1.30 pcmcia-cs package there [sourceforge.net]
  • Hmm, my very first /. post and it's a complaint. ALSA 0.5.12 (emu10k1 driver) seems to have been broken by this release - amixer returns this error:

    amixer: Mixer 0/0 open error: Invalid argument

    ...and xmms segfaults immediately. :-(

  • by ddent (166525) on Friday November 23, 2001 @08:08AM (#2603356) Homepage
    Please avoid slashdoting the main server. Here is list of direct links to mirrors, by country.

    Version 2.4.15, full tarball:
    al [kernel.org]
    dz [kernel.org]
    as [kernel.org]
    ad [kernel.org]
    ao [kernel.org]
    ai [kernel.org]
    aq [kernel.org]
    ag [kernel.org]
    ar [kernel.org]
    am [kernel.org]
    aw [kernel.org]
    ac [kernel.org]
    au [kernel.org]
    at [kernel.org]
    az [kernel.org]
    av [kernel.org]
    bs [kernel.org]
    bh [kernel.org]
    bd [kernel.org]
    bb [kernel.org]
    by [kernel.org]
    be [kernel.org]
    bz [kernel.org]
    bj [kernel.org]
    bm [kernel.org]
    bt [kernel.org]
    bo [kernel.org]
    ba [kernel.org]
    bw [kernel.org]
    bv [kernel.org]
    br [kernel.org]
    io [kernel.org]
    bn [kernel.org]
    bg [kernel.org]
    bf [kernel.org]
    bi [kernel.org]
    kh [kernel.org]
    cm [kernel.org]
    ca [kernel.org]
    ic [kernel.org]
  • by biglig2 (89374) on Friday November 23, 2001 @08:25AM (#2603385) Homepage Journal
    ...reading this I went over to catch up on AC's diary. More human interest than the change log. Got to November 5th and read:

    "Windows installation day one. Getting rid of the old windows was easy - they fell apart quite happily, and certainly wont be re-installable anywhere else. "

    Blimey, I thought, until I remembered his house is getting done up...
  • Why is Marcelo Tosatti maintaining the 2.4.x tree?
    Is Alan Cox still tied up in 2.2.x maintenance or is he just tired of maintaining stable trees?

    Anyone know more about this guy?
    I know he's been a kernel hacker for a long time and has done some work with linux-ha project.
    • Re:Marcelo Tosatti (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Teukels (16313)
      Marcello is maintaining 2.4.15> because Alan Cox won't, it seems he made a personal choice.
      Alan Cox is going to be in touch more with the customers of his employer, RedHat.

      Marcello is a knowledgeable guy, he has proven to be sceptical and is imho able to discriminate well between a 'bad' patch and a Good(TM) patch. Alan said he would assist and advice Marcello if he needed help.

      If you want to know more about Alan Cox, please search google for Alan's diary and website. (Or try Telsa's website, might be even more fun to read.)
  • It will probably be at least a week until 2.5 really gets moving. Linus on the lkml
    ...when I release 2.4.15, I'll at the same time release a 2.5.0 that is identical except for version number (that makes synchronization easier later on). And I'll probably _not_ start accepting all the big waiting patches immediately, I'd rather wait for at least a week or two to see that there aren't any other issues.

    It's much easier doing some of the IO patches in particular knowing that the base you start out from is stable.

    Linus

    -K
  • sheesh. 2.4 to 2.5 and not a single change.
  • Hi all,

    While we are talking about incompatible kernel patches [slashdot.org], please be aware that ALSA 0.5.12 does not work under 2.4.15. You need to get the CVS version, as described here [geocrawler.com]. ALSA 0.5.12 compiles, but does not work.

  • I have been trying to figure out how the pre-release kernel patches are applied. I have tried using the patch-kernel script to no avail. Are they patches against the previous prerelease, or the previous release?
  • According to openwall [openwall.com], the non-exec stack and other security patches so useful in 2.0.x and 2.2.x are finally on the way to 2.4.x, giving you that extra bit of protection. Of course, it looks like it will have its own beta period, but those patches protected my 2.0.x box for quite a while from 0-day exploits, and let it manage a full year of uptime at one point despite dozens of users and a bunch of services (including the ever-dangerous wu-ftpd).
  • If you try to cut and paste from the mailing list archives, you'll probably have spaces instead of tabs in the patch, causing patch to choke on it. I've put a tabbed patch up here [usask.ca].

Thus mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true. -- Bertrand Russell

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