Red Hat Proposes Alternative Settlement To MSFT 532
cwsulliv writes "Red Hat, Inc. has proposed an alternative settlement to the Microsoft class-action lawsuit in Maryland. Microsoft originally proposed supplying a limited number of poorer school districts in the US with PC hardware and limited-license Microsoft software.
The alternative proposal submitted by Red Hat would have Microsoft supply NO software but dramatically increase the number of school districts receiving hardware. Red Hat in turn would supply ALL the software (Open Source) and unlimited support via their Red hat Network.
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mwahaha (Score:4, Interesting)
What's too bad, though, is that MS had the foresight to see what a golden opportunity this sort of punishment was, and Red Hat is only seeing it now that MS has suggested it (and frantically scrambling to make sure it doesn't go through). I was livid when I heard about what a cop-out this whole thing turned out to be, but I was also a little peeved that none of the Linux vendors realized what a potentially important market this could be to invest in.
Have to hand it to Microsoft. Satan himself runs the show, but Satan is no dummy.
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:4, Interesting)
In any case, this is a briliant PR/Marketing move on the part of RedHat, that will result in great publicity reguardless of Microsoft's answer.
Whoever came up witht this at RH is definitely earning their pay.
Re:Touche (Score:3, Interesting)
And when Microsoft viciously declines, it will give more fuel to their anti-competetive practices.
They won't have to. The schools themselves will viciously decline. Why anyone thinks that schools are just begging for Linux is beyond my comprehension. Does it occur to anyone that if they wanted it, they can install it anytime they want?
Buy Apple hardware? (Score:2, Interesting)
Not good for the children... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hrm, could this have a *little something* to do with the fact that Microsoft has had a monopoly in the schools. With 980,000 or so potential Linux computers in schools, software development companies might consider making their educational software cross-platform, or maybe even some Linux-specific offerings. Until now there was been no motivation for them to create education software for Linux, so a major ramification of going with RedHat's proposed settlement would be to get the ball rolling in this area. That is, of course, a very good effect of a punitive monopoly settlement, giving the competition a jump start.
Red Hat monopoly? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been hearing this argument since the 80s, except then the status quo was the Apple II and the scary technical alternative was the PC. Then, 'everything' schools ran worked on their 10-year-old Apple 2s, and there was nothing running on Windows 3.1 or DOS that they were interested in. In reality, 'everything' was "The Oregon Trail", "Print Shop", and some crappy home-made software written in Basic. Now, the same attitude exists about Windows. What is all this 'educational' software, anyways? The crap book publishers "give" away to entice administrators to buy their book? The question isn't "what will the kids run if they have to use Linux", but "What are they running now that they need windows for?"
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:2, Interesting)
How much is MS prepared to spend to kill a competitor ??
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:2, Interesting)
Wolfenstein! Thats what I was running during my computer classes 10 years ago, and now it runs under Linux as well...
Seriously.. any computer in schools will mostly (My guess is at least 95 percent) be used for simple word processing and surfing. That you can do perfectly well under Linux.
The trick with publicly accessible computers in schools (with no support personell), is to get them to work most of the time. The standard configuration you use on your personal computer isnt really such an good idea. Take a look at projects like Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools [k12ltsp.org].Its not perfect yet, but it is a much better aproach to the problem than simply installing WindowsXP on all the computers.
If RedHat was allowed to put their software in such a number of computer (of course, nobody seriously believes they ever will), I think they could come up with something OK.
Re:RedHat could be up to something (Score:3, Interesting)
If we've learned anything, it's that these guy don't fuck around, and they'd eat their son to save their daughter.
Re:More unix edu software than Windows (Score:1, Interesting)
fluff educational software for Unix than
there is for windows.
Under math for instance there is:
A)Mathematica, Matlab, Maple etc
(how would you perform a quick calculation under
unix? answer well I might pop open an xterm and
type bc and the calculation, or I might launch
xcalc, or I might run emacs calc-mode and convert the answer from hexidecimal to octal. How would I do it under windows, well I'd... get a pencil and a piece of paper of course!?)
B)Astronomy
Well I know of xephem I'm sure there is
more.
C)History
What in the hell do you need some crappy
multimedia software for, go get a
history book, watch the history channelvisit the internet or go to project gutenberg.
D)Literature
See project gutenberg
What else do you need?
Using computers as glorified video tape
playing babysitter is overrated.
I hope it won't breed skript kiddies... (Score:3, Interesting)
Red Hat had better be prepared for a LOT of seemingly mundane support issues to come flooding through their doors. It would also behoove them to actually get in touch with LUGs in the area to see how they can assist with the training/support/etc of these 2 mil. RH boxes.
This is a very nice thing of them to offer, but it could also backfire in a huge way if not done correctly.
Re:Touche (Score:4, Interesting)
Eh? Been in a school lately? I have, and I can safely say that the number of people there with the technical knowledge and/or self-confidence necessary to install an OS on to a computer is vanishingly small. They literally cannot install Linux (or anything else) if they want to, or if they can, they aren't allowed to because management is too worried about "messing stuff up". That's why support would be the critical piece of Red Hat's proposal... they would need to send out people to help install/convert the computers. Hmm, I wonder if Red Hat could use volunteers for this? I'd do it...
True cost of computers/software (Score:1, Interesting)
Dell sells our school p4 computers (1.5G p4, 20G HD, 256M ram, CD, 17" monitor, 3yr warranty and such) for $650, not $1000.
First off, I venture the comupter would be worth much more than the software to any school.
Second, whoever is quoting computers for schools at $1000 is pocketing some cash.
The software is just a smoke screen to inflate the value of the settlement. The schools are just being used as a "good cause" for PR and tax writeoff for Microsoft. Like the tobacco companies, they just want a settlement to be done with it and will pass the cost to their customers.
As for the software, where is the open source movement in creating, organizing, distributing software for schools? How about university CS and Education programs creating open source educational software? And get the Business programs to practice marketing it to schools?
I would like to see someone practical to take control of this settlement. Have Microsoft cough up the 1.1 billion (or more, don't see where the figure came from), then cut a better deal with Dell or some other computer company that is at least equal to what our school is getting today. Interest on that kind of money alone could do a world of good. The tax write off should not NOT go to microsoft, but how about to all the people that microsoft cheated but aren't getting anything to show for out of this settlement?
Then setup a program that encourages open source and schools of higher learning to create, develop, promote educational software for schools of lower learning.
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:1, Interesting)
in addition, the point here, as someone earlier noted, is to penalize M$. the best way to do that, aside from short-term punative damages in cash (which is also a good idea) is to create or encourage a viable long-term alternative. and, sorry, guys, but Apple's got a better shot at that.
further, if the penalty has to benefit someone, it should be those people M$'s abusive monopoly most hurt, and Apple's been taking M$'s abuse for much longer than Linux has been a factor.
and that says nothing of the comparative qualities of the OSs...:-)
Why not have both? (Score:2, Interesting)
Personally, I think this would be of a lot more benefit to the schools, and students.
Re:That seems a bit strange. (Score:2, Interesting)
Interestingly, their multi-line phone system ran on a Unix box (I don't know which Unix, could be Linux, or not), which they could access from a couple of retired, too-slow-for-Office Win95 PCs running Exceed (an X implementation for Windows). The staff there seemed to cope fine with what looked (to me) suspiciously like twm and Tk...
IMO, in an ideal world schools would have at least Macs, some sort of Unix, and Windows (yes, I know this is unrealistic from an admin point of view, I'm talking hypothetically here). It's easy to fall into the trap of "because it's not the same as Windows, it's wrong" if Windows is too ubiqutous. As I remember, when I was at primary and secondary school, we didn't get too confused moving from BBC Micros to Acorn Archimedes to Windows PCs (and yes, my secondary school did just about have all those in active use by pupils, simultaneously!)
Why haven't we heard from Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Touche (Score:4, Interesting)
Really? How many people would be interested in volunteering for something like this? I can look into arranging something if there's sufficient interest...
Ed
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:2, Interesting)
The k12ltsp project is especially cool, because it makes it relatively easy to set up a group of diskless workstations for student use; since we're talking about Linux, those workstations don't have to be high-end machines, making it possible to do more with less (always a favorite approach with under-funded school systems).
So sure, our suggested approach to Microsoft's settlement certainly wouldn't hurt us, but if you think it's a completely self-serving action, you're missing a large part of the story...
Ed
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:4, Interesting)
They set up terminal servers.
Student blows up his/her machine? reset his account and reboot..
Voila it's fixed... something the janitor can do.
the server maintaince can be done part time by the CS teacher or by a maintaince firm .
managing 100 redhat boxen in a terminal server arrangement can be done by someone with very little computer knowlege.... like a MCSE for example... (Sorry for the stab... but it was begging for it.)
.
Definitely an interesting concept... (Score:2, Interesting)
1) It makes them look like their looking out for the children and therefore makes them look like the good guys.
2) It would be almost no punishment at all! Especially when you consider that all the software would cost them nothing because they'd be supplying their own!
The Redhat idea for Microsoft to supply the hardware and Redhat supply the software is quite an interesting idea.
Upsides:
1) Microsoft gets a bigger punishment because they aren't just taking money from one of their pockets and putting it in the other.
2) More schools benefit because the money will be going into the hardware and not the software.
3) The schools would get "unlimited support" from Redhat.
4) A generation of people maybe would learn to not be quite as afraid/ignorant of the mysterious entity known as Linux.
Downsides:
1) As much as I'd hate to say it... let's me honest: A large percentage of those children are not going to ever use Linux (or any other Unix) other than in school. They're going to be using Windows, cause that's what they probably have at home, that's what they'll be using in their entry level jobs.
2) Not to take any credit away from the teachers but... most teachers (even computer teachers) would not have prior experience with Linux. This would mean that training would be required.
3) Let's face it: people are bitchy by nature. I could picture the uproar that the parents of these children would be in because their children are being taught how to use something other than Windows.
In the defense of Non-Windows software:
In theory it shouldn't matter what OS the students are using because
a) a GUI should be intuitive and
b) because most programs are layed out and function that exact same whether it's a program for windows or for something else.
EG: Basic Word Processor. If you know how to use one word processor then it's not going to be a stretch to use another word processor.
just my two cents (cdn)
Re:I hope it won't breed skript kiddies... (Score:2, Interesting)
Ed
show em like it is (Score:3, Interesting)
Have a mix of them in the library for internet use and accessing the library catalog(often via web-interface these days). Show them that it doesn't really matter so long as standards are adhered to.
Seriously I doubt that any kid would have a problem sitting down at a KDE desktop for the first time. They'll just click on things till it breaks or works. And lets face it kids will often use the one which looks the coolest. Even a default KDE desktop looks pretty sweet (just change win-deco to laptop).
And after the license free period is over I imagine all the windows boxes will dissappear. Either that or MS will chase em down and eat them alive.
Re:Fine. Prove it. (Score:2, Interesting)
So consider this scenario. Let's say that there are ~650,000 machines on which you can install new educational software.
Ok, so you form a working group of dozens, hundreds or thousands of programmers from all over the world (that means outside the US too, we have a different definition of the word 'world' than you do), who collaborate over the internet to produce educational software.
Then, you do a deal with the schools. You tell them that you are going to build one great new educational title for their school, that they can download off the internet, and it has an easy, double clickable installer with which they can install the software, every 2 months for the next 12 months. In other words they get 6 titles.
The programmes will be open source, and they can install it on every machine, in every school.
In return for this, they will pay a one off development fee of 50c per machine/per title.
This is approximately $325,000 per title, total of $2,100,000 for all 6 titles. A freakin bargain if you ask me, given the current state of your education system.
Then you take that 2 mill, and you start a Linux educational software company. The company operates as a commercial entity, but comes to it's own arrangement with the schools, and also markets their educational software to kids and parents.
Suddenly, you have a market for Linux software, and commercial vendors start making software and selling it under any licence they choose.
That's a lot more pleasant than the thought of having to watch fat-arse yell 'Developers, developers, developers...' for the next 10-20 years.
Just my 4c
Even this is self-serving... (Score:2, Interesting)
Why do we need Red Hat Network when we have all software we need [debian.org] thru Debian GNU [debian.org.] CDs [debian.org], mirrors network [debian.org], dpkg [carnet.hr] package manager with full dependency management, apt [debian.org] to get all this software and install it, everything documented [debian.org] and supported [debian.org]?
What's more, Debian creates communities.
800,000 keyboards (Score:4, Interesting)
Second, if the point is to introduce the students to the principles of computer science, then Linux is perfectly adequate to the task. We aren't out to create a generation of Word-using stenographers, we are out to expand the minds of the students.
Third, there is no reason for any school to keep Linux on their machines if they choose not to. They can install any OS they like. True, they may have to pay for it. The cost-free option remains theirs, but they can go and install BeOS if they choose.
Fourth, the benefit of this proposal is not that Microsoft gets punnished for their evil deeds. It is not that they get their monopolistic plans thwarted. It is not that Red Hat gets to capture the hearts and minds of the students. The real benefit is that 800,000 more kids get to sit in front of 800,000 more monitors and tap away on 800,000 more keyboards than the original proposal. Five times as many kids get access to five times as many computers, running a capable, highly reliable, highly efficient operating system that can be utilized at no extra cost, or replaced with the OS of their choice (should they decide to do so) for far less than the cost of acquiring the equivilent systems themselves.
What a pity it won't happen!
Re:Why haven't we heard from Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
You've never worked for a state government, have you? Here in Colorado, state agencies are bound by law to buy furniture through the Juniper Valley Corrections Facility. See, the prison put in the cheapest bid when the state was writing up contracts; as a result, state agencies may not buy any furniture from anyplace else, even though it can be had for as little as half as much, unless there are special circumstances (e.g., the furniture has to be built to exact specs that Juniper Valley can't handle).
Slave labor is here to stay.
-Legion