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Netbook Return Rates Much Higher For Linux Than Windows
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Oct 05, 2008 09:17 AM
from the old-dogs-new-tricks-etc. dept.
from the old-dogs-new-tricks-etc. dept.
ivoras writes "An interview with MSI's director of US Sales, Andy Tung, contains this interesting snippet: "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven't really talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks.'"
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Linux On Netbooks — a Complicated Story 833 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Keir Thomas has responded to the recent raft of news stories pointing out that Linux's share of the netbook market isn't as rosy as it used to be. Thomas thinks the problem boils down to a combination of unfamiliar software and unfamiliar hardware, which can 'push users over the edge.' This accounts for the allegedly high return rates of Linux netbooks. In contrast, although far from superior, Windows provides a more familiar environment, making the hardware issues (irritatingly small keyboard, screen etc.) seem less insurmountable; users are less likely to walk away. 'Once again Microsoft's monopoly means Windows is swallowing up another market.'"
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Which retailers? (Score:5, Funny)
And are they selling the returned notebooks at a big discount?
Education would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, put some videos on there that explain how to do common tasks. Tasks that are better on linux than on windows. (Like finding/installing cool toys/software/games). Make the videos right there on the desktop. Once consumers find out they can do the things they want, and easily, they will like it.
Mod Parent +1 Funny (Score:5, Funny)
Games! Good one, sir.
Parent
Try a few of these free games... (Score:5, Informative)
Just to straighten things out a bit, I recommend you try a few of these games:
FPSes:
Strategy (mixing real-time and turn-based):
Others:
Those are all packages I found with a quick `aptitude search "~i~sGames"; that is, these are games that are packaged and trivially easy to install straight out of the box.
You can of course also install wine and create bottles for Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo II if you have those games [or you can buy them at blizzard.com [isohunt.com]], among many others (so I hear).
Or you can install DosBox and play your old dos games (One Must Fall is the win). Or you can install uae (Amiga), vice (Commodore: Pets, VIC-20, 64, 128, CBM-II, PLUS/4), pscx (PlayStation), xmess (Atari 400/800/2600, Lynx, NES, SNES, GameBoy, Sega Master System, Sega Megadrive) or mame. Apologies to all emulators that I left out.
I'm not saying that Linux is just as great a gaming OS as windows. But claiming that there are next to no good games that are runnable on linux is simply being uninformed. And the cowsay bit, that was just making fun ;)
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Re:Education would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember my first Mac had a 1,44" Floppy with a very cool tutorial app that illustraded the most important steps you had to do in order to get started: click to open an app, how drag&drop works, where the apps are located, how to save a document and how to open one. I was 15 years old, and I remember I very much enjoyed the little tutorial app, it was funny and helped me getting started quickly. I agree with you here: put a quick (max 15min) comic style tutorial app on the desktop, and people will have a different view on the whole thing, and like it more.
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Marketing would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, But Linux Is Not The Incentive (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I read the article. Yes, I know that they're looking at Ubuntu. Regardless of what it looks like, Ubuntu is still Linux. People who can't find the Word icon will still be unhappy.
No, saving a little money is not enough reason for most Windows users to switch.
Look, I'm not bashing Linux. I used it for a decade. But it is naive to expect people to willingly throw away their investment in Windows (time and money) simply to learn an OS that allows them to keep on doing the same things.
If someone is happy using, say, Word and Photoshop, what's attractive in hearing that Linux can't run Word and Photoshop but they can do pretty much the same things with Openoffice and Gimp, once they take the time to learn how to use them? Why should they do that when they can keep on using Word and Photoshop?
Like I said, i used Linux for ten years. I switched to Apple a few years ago because I wanted wireless to work. Now, I need to buy new hardware. I could easily save a few bucks and run Linux on something. But, why should I? I like Apple software, I'm accustomed to using it. Everything I did in Linux I can do on a Mac, often with greater ease and reliability. Why should I care if Linux allows me to do the same things once I learn how to use it and a bunch of new programs? Where's the incentive? There are tens of millions of Windows users thinking the same thing.
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it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had two netbooks so far, and on both, the Linux installations sucked. One came with Xandros, the other with SuSE. Both were poorly installed, neither of them updated correctly over the network, and neither of them was properly adapted to the device (screen, keyboard, etc.). If I hadn't been able to install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, I would have returned the machines myself.
Re:it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard this story a lot from seasoned users (being one myself, although I never got around to buying a preinstalled machine). Apparently the first Dell laptops with Ubuntu had the same kind of problems. Likewise a number of laptop sellers advertise as being Linux friendly but I often see small print along the lines of "this and that peripheral (most often the webcam) won't work if you pick Linux as the OS".
What is it with those people ? They pick their hardware, can't they at least pick some that's supported ? It's not as if it was difficult to find Linux supported components. It's even more irritating when you find out that users familiar with the system report that it was an easy fix.
I sometimes wonder if there isn't a clause in one of their OEM contracts stipulating that "if you supply another OS, it has to be crappy".
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Re:it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
If I hadn't been able to install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, I would have returned the machines myself.
It would be interesting to dig deeper into the return numbers and find out if it was problems with Linux in general or the specific OS installed on the returned devices. I believe the Linux in general issues can be addressed, but the device specific OS issues will be more difficult.
As long as every netbook manufacturer is determined to roll their own flavor, then Linux will continue to be plagued with dilution by fragmentation in the marketplace. Instead of the Windows way and the Linux way, there's the Windows way and 20 different Linux ways.
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An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder what it would cost someone like Microsoft to have MSI spike the competition.
Re:An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA, and unlike the submitter, you'll see that the interviewers point out that MSI offer a poorly configured version of Linux. I wonder what it would cost someone like Microsoft to have MSI spike the competition.
I could have shared this observation months ago. It may have to do with the distro itself in this particular instance, but as a senior sales associate for a larger computer + electronics retailer, I can state for a fact that we get a substantially higher return rate of Linux-based Aspire One and EEE PC's compared to that of the Windows-based ones. The most common complaint when asked the reason for the return? "I can't install any of my programs on here. Office, Adobe, MSN, nothing works!" I try to take the time to assist them, showing them where they can find comparable programs and install them, such as GAIM/Pidgin and OpenOffice. Some are more than happy with that, others still want to return them. Lucky for them we have a pretty lax return policy.
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Re:An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Insightful)
It would cost much less than allowing MSI do it in the normal course of their business. I know conspiracies are more entertaining than blaming human laziness, but trying to blame poor Linux/MSI integration on Microsoft takes the biscuit. Consider:
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Just put them on the top shelf. (Score:5, Funny)
Just put them on the top shelf, since the kind of people who obviously don't read the box and think installing Windows hard will be too lazy to reach them.
Eee (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I've bought three eee's, one for me, my brother, and my wife. I've installed ubuntu and configured everything before giving them to the others, and they haven't had a problem since. My wife, who won't use windows because she's not used to it (she grew up with macs), says she likes ubuntu - I suspect her story would be different if she had to spend hours looking up instructions how to install it.
Amazing. Half assed installs cause returns (Score:5, Insightful)
MSI's install of linux is a piece of garbage. They barely made it run and it's junk. now they are bitching that their half assed work causes returns?
How come the ASUS eee flys off shelves where it's available and people that own them that are not techies love them in their linux install?
Oh wait, ASUS did not half ass the linux install. Ahhhh.
It must be linux's fault then.
The story headline needs to be changed... "MSI does crappy work again and bitches about it shifting blame to XXX."
Take care of your own product, (Score:5, Insightful)
rather than blaming the users who "don't want to spend time to learn it". Customers buy your product because they need it, but few would learn it the hard way without well-organized, easy-to-follow documentation. Invest in supporting and documenting your own product and users will be happier, not angrier.
Fixing some manufacturing stupidities. (Score:5, Interesting)
Alright, couple things. Yes. It is true that the vast majority of the general public don't want to learn how a computer works.
But I see some fault by manufacturers too. Couple things.
Stop shipping laptops with relatively unknown "Lets evade the MS Tax" Linux distros with little support or documentation. This whole "Get a Linux computer so we can pirate Windows" thing has gotta stop.
From now on, contract with the BIG BOYS in Linux, Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Suse. No more gOS. no more *insert Bizzare distro no one has ever heard of here* distro.
Make sure all your drivers for your cards work and can survive things like Kernel patches.
Stop shipping broken configurations. If my Screen can support 1200x800, it better not be set to 1024x768.
Stop Advertising Linux as "Almost Windows" or "Sort of Windows" - Advertise Linux as - Linux. Put a big Penguin sign up next to the row of Linux Laptops, and say "These are Linux Laptops." and if they are
Install Wine on Linux Laptops. Show customers that they can take their Windows applications with them where Applicable.
This is why the Microsoft monoculture is bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the '80s and early '90s, people coped perfectly well with competing computers and operating systems. Sure, an Amiga was a bit different from an Atari, which was a bit different from a PC, which was a bit different from a Mac, which was a bit different from an Archimedes... but so what? People coped, just like they cope with the way every washing machine or DVD player today has a different interface. When you started using computers, you became computer literate, just like everyone's more or less washing-machine-literate and DVD-player-literate. And once you're literate in a technology, you can learn to use any form of it relatively easily.
What the Windows monoculture has done is to destroy computer literacy among most users. Now, instead of learning to use a computer, people are trained to use Microsoft Windows. Instead of learning about launching applications and using word processors, they're trained to click on the big button at the bottom left of the screen that says "start", then to click where it says "Microsoft Word". And so as soon as that button turns into a picture of a foot at the top left of the screen, and the icon they're looking for says "Word Processor", they're left bewildered and uncomfortable.
Of course, this has now bitten Microsoft too: it's one reason why Vista and Office 2007 are so unpopular. (Semantics nazis: does that count as irony?)
It's not the linux, is the bizarre distros (Score:5, Informative)
However, I bloody well couldn't, could I? The manufacturers had installed some of their own RPM packages before sending out the laptops, many of which had dependencies on other packages. I couldn't bloody update my system because these packages weren't on the central RPM repositories for fedora etc., and there were countless conflicts. Their proprietry RPMs required firefox, so I couldn't update firefox because that would require interfacing with these RPMs, which weren't there. I couldn't update ANY fucking packages, my distribution was useless, unless I forced removals and forced installs of new RPMs, but then all the conflicts had to be sorted out manually.
I've ended up putting Xubuntu on it with XFCE, but it's far less responsive because you loose the intelligent optimisation that Acer etc, put into it, and installing it requires making bootable keydrives etc., and loads of optimisations to the SSD, swap etc.
Why the hell the manufacturers don't just use Ubuntu (I've heard Dell have the sense too, at least), I do not know.
Stupid.
I don't blame people for the returns... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Of course! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the return rate is higher! Linux is NOT READY FOR THE DESKTOP! You can't buy off-the-shelf software for it at Best Buy and it's hard to use. People buy things based on the price tag without doing their research first. Most of the time, they can't even get their microwave oven to stop flashing 12:00. What makes you think they're going to want to read an extremely lengthy linux user manual?
Last time I checked, Apple hardware wasn't running Windows. Yet, they've managed to take a *nix/BSD-derived OS and make it VERY simple and intuitive to use.
If [insert netbook vendor here] Executive staff can't seem to find the value in hiring a COMPETENT *nix admin to create a decent functional disk image worthy of being a Microsoft replacement, or at least as easy to use as OS X for the end user, then I feel NO pity for them.
Bottom line is *nix IS ready for the desktop, and Apple has PROVEN that. Other distros have made a large enough impact to make it to Best Buy shelves as well. Make it intuitive enough, and you don't need a 300-page user manual to figure it out.
And ENOUGH with the flashing 12:00 analogy already! Cripes, even my 8-year old knows how to set the damn time on the microwave. Todays generation of 30 and 40-somethings grew UP with tech, and the younger generation can't live without it.
Parent
Mod parent up! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, this neighbor is actually quite an intelligent and insightful person, but as I've witnessed before, give her a computer and she transforms into a complete moron. Yet she uses one daily! I suspect the great majority of users are like that; they learned once, long ago, how to do something on windows and now they are done learning. If they can't see the same icons and menus in the same places they simply give up, complaining bitterly that it's the computer's fault. They may be perfectly reasonable and intelligent people away from the computer, but while using one they are, for all intents and purposes, completely fucking stupid. It's frustrating.
So no, I'm not a bit surprised that lots of people return Linux netbooks. I see how they are.
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Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
It is probably "power users" who are returning these. Not people who just want their web browser to work and write letters with the word processor and little else.
Not geeks who would know what they want in terms of OSes.
People who know Windows, and MS Office well, but do not actually understand at an abstract level that can be re-applied to other OSes and apps. From people with a memorised sequence of muse clicks for hundreds of tasks, to people who write apps in VBA and Excel.
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