Has the Novell/Microsoft Deal Made a Difference?

willdavid writes "The deal between Microsoft and Novell was announced a little more than a year ago, and it's hard to judge what impact the deal has really had on the marketplace (if any). The two groups claim to have signed up 30 new customers (including heavyweights like Costco and Southwest Airlines), but it will still be some time before any real changes will be felt. 'Regardless of what impact the deal has triggered in the marketplace over the past year, ultimately it's about meeting market requirements. "The fact is that the vast majority of businesses do not want homogeneous IT infrastructures," Pund-IT analyst King said. "Instead, they want to be able to better and more easily manage their IT assets no matter what hardware or OS platforms they buy. Microsoft and Novell deserve congratulations on their one-year anniversary, but the needs of Linux and Windows customers are as much responsible for the partnership as the companies themselves."'"

paludis -s && paludis -pi everything

Nope.

Not really

My Novell server is still disconnected.

Re:Not really

Heh! Mine now has debian on it. I'd like to say it was a direct result of the Novell-Microsoft deal, which was the major factor, but SuSE's hideous application launcher "start" menu was also a contributor. ;)

Re:Marketplace has spoken

Ballmer? Is that you?

CHAIR!

The one video that sums

The one video that sums up this patent deal is this one by Eben Moglen [youtube.com]

Re:The one video that sums

So why not take the money, and laugh all the way to the bank?

Because there are more than just MS and Novell involved. And because there are issues of trust at stake.

Look at it this way: suppose you find out I've been talking to your neighborhood thief. Suppose you find out that I've taken money from him to keep lookout while he robs your house. Suppose I then turn around to you and say "it's all right, your house has good locks, he's never going to get. Why shouldn't I take his money and laugh all the way to the bank?". Would you find that reassuring?

Most people would not, I think, and rightly so. I've given no indication that, if the thief did get in, I would do anything to stop him; I've shown a willingness to collaborate with lawbreakers in your town; and I've demonstrated a worrying willingness to betray my associate that suggests I may betray others just as lightly. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

In Novell's case, they've demonstrated a worrying disdain for the community that developed most of the software they sell, and they've given themselves a financial incentive to include MS patents in the code they contribute. And in doing so, they've lost the trust of a large portion of the community, trust which may prove difficult to regain. And while it's true that doesn't seem to particularly worry Novell, the fact that they hold the community in such low regard is worrying in itself.

What it boils down to, I think, is that stratagems that work well in purely commercial environments don't always work so well in the world of free software. That, for my money, is "why not".

Sure it has

It's the first in a series of claws that are slowly being sunk into the Fleshy Underbelly that is the LINUX Penguin. A couple more cleverly thrown chairs and my plan will be complete! Muhahaha. /Ballmervoice :)

Of course it has!

Obviously the deal has made a difference to Slashdot's bottom line. Things like the MS/Novell deal are perfect for getting everyone riled up into a frenzy and generating lots of page views!

The only differences

- More than 3000 people/companies have moved away from SuSE, OpenSuSE and Novell products [0]
- Novell is going to incorporate GPL3 [1]
- Vista still sucks

[0] - http://techp.org/p/1 [techp.org]
[1] - http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS3755005405.html [linux-watch.com]

Re:The only differences

I have moved from Suse to Kubuntu
I had always recommended Suse to beginners, not anymore.

CostCo? Last Year around Christmas

So last year around Christmas I break down and finally buy an iPod. There's pallets of iPods and they're moving, by the looks of it. There's also a pallet of Zunes. Looks like they've sold about 5 players.

Making a deal with CostCo to sell your stuff doesn't mean people will buy it.

Of Course It Has

Microsoft is successfully splitting the Linux marketing into Dangerous Litigation Minefield and Peace of Mind Secure sides for the business world.

And the Linux/Open Source crowd have been in a mad rush to 'prove just how open minded they are' to the world, because 'Microsoft isn't ALWAYS evil, you know' and other such blather.

Instead of cutting Novell's air supply off with prejudice making it clear that any other distro that aids Microsoft in their Patent War against Linux/Open Source would be treated the same way, the open source crowd posted a few worthless +5 Insightful diatribes on Slashdot and other forums and then went right back to using Novell's Linux distros.

You should hear the utter contempt the folks at Microsoft in charge of taking on Linux have for you open source folks. Your Weakness sickens them.

Re:Of Course It Has

>> You should hear the utter contempt the folks at Microsoft in
>> charge of taking on Linux have for you open source folks.
>> Your Weakness sickens them.

What actually sickens them is that GOOG is trading at about $660/share.

Yes

Made me lose any and all interest in Suse.

If you knew.........nevermind.

I'm very pleased, except

The only problem I have with the deal is that I'm unable to find the download links to the new software that helps my linux and windows pcs connect better and become easier to manage.

BLah BLah Blah more crapspeak

"The fact is that the vast majority of businesses do not want homogeneous IT infrastructures," Pund-IT analyst King said. "Instead, they want to be able to better and more easily manage their IT assets no matter what hardware or OS platforms they buy. Microsoft and Novell deserve congratulations on their one-year anniversary, but the needs of Linux and Windows customers are as much responsible for the partnership as the companies themselves.'"

I dont think any of that actually means anything. No really, it sounds like a bunch of Manager type talk but nothing concrete. All ideas and no real tangibles.

Has it made a difference? SURE!

It's caused a ton of friction between Novell and big chunk of the rest of the Linux community.

Novell Honor Roll diff

Over the past year several of Novell's msGNU/Linux employees have left:
Robert Love - beagle, kernel, now at Google
Joe Shaw - beagle, not at ITA Software
Crispin Cowan and the entire AppArmor team (fired en-masse)
plus others I can't remember off the top of my head

Who of note is still drawing a Novell check?
Miguel de Icaza, mono
Nat Friedman, "chief technology and strategy officer for open source" (but mighty quiet lately)
Greg Kroah-Hartman, kernel

Re:Novell Honor Roll diff

Michael Meeks, who seems to be working predominantly on Gnome and OOo stuff. He still gets a check from Novell.

Re:Novell Honor Roll diff

Novell has some 5000 employees. You find it odd that some have left? (only two have stated that they left because of any deal). Novell/SUSE have more developers working on the Linux desktop than anyone else; that's many core KDE, GNOME, OOo, GCC, Kernel, and ALSA developers. So, a _lot_ of people there of note :)

Re:Novell Honor Roll diff

Figures on what? In terms of contribution to the Linux desktop? I'm not sure there is any competition. While Red Hat is fully pushing the server into new avenues everywhere (which is of course great), SUSE are doing this on the server and the desktop. They have actively pursued the Linux desktop and have taken it very seriously, as you can see by their acquisitions of Ximian and SUSE. There is simply no other company that even really competes with the same level of consistent contribution throughout the whole desktop.

No, it didn't

...at least not to patent trolls [slashdot.org].
 

Measure?

How do you measure the impact?

How many companies have been terrified to look at Linux now that Microsoft is screaming that Linux users are violating patents? Didn't SCO use the same tactics, and everyone berated them for it? SCO's stolen code they wouldn't point out is the same as the unlisted patents that Microsoft feels are violated.

Novell paid to license patents, and in doing so, they cast a shadow of guilt on all Linux distros. Can you quantify and put on a pie chart a FUD factor? Can you count how many users move from one distro to the other, when we don't have counts in the first place?

And what of the other distros that ended up signing deals as well?

Re:Measure?

I've read the exact verbiage of the deal, as well as Novell's FAQ about the deal.

It simply says that Novell paid to license patents, and the ambiguity is notable. It doesn't have to clearly say that Linux violates Microsoft patents, Microsoft wins with even just a shadow of doubt here. If they can make corporations wary, then it will be enough to keep them from using Linux.

I work in a moderately sized IT department for a local company these days, and most of the IT staff here say things like "it is against the law to use any GPL programs for commercial use", etc. Even the suggestion or rumor is enough to scare people away permanently often enough.

No difference whatsoever.

The deal has made no impact whatsoever in any of Novells products. Most integration with Microsofts products is either old or from open source components. The only exception is Zenworks 10 support for Vista but i really doubt that is because of the cooperation they have. In fact Novell relies on samba 4 for AD support, go figure that out. Where is the hyped cooperation there one might ask? This is just an attempt to justify taking loads of money from Microsoft to purport using their patents. PR wise it was a disaster and now its all about damage control.

Yes it has....

...to Microsoft. Let's see:

• Has it stopped Microsoft from picking on Novell and stealing their customers, as Novell have hoped? No.
• Is Novell lame and incompetent enough to try and get its biggest competitor to try and sell its own software?! You bet.
• Given Microsoft the platform to claim that Linux and open source software infringes their patents? Check.
• Given Microsoft access to Novell's customers to tell them about said infringement? Check.
• Allowed Microsoft to sell a sanctioned version of Linux, in amongst a network controlled by Windows Domain Controllers as per the agreement? Check.
• Allowed Microsoft to accelerate the move of Netware to Windows, via some meaningless SLES installations? Check.
• Where's the interoperability? Is Microsoft contributing to Samba 4? Is it contributing to anything else? No.
• Is Novell flushing the rest of itself down the toilet in the long run? Yep.

one difference that I know of

One difference is that I went from recommending SUSE as a commercial Linux option to customers and other contacts to recommending that they avoid it. Note that I don't "not recommend it", I "anti-recommend it". If it were just me, no big deal. But I'd bet I'm not the only one out there. I now recommend either Ubuntu or Red Hat (for those who are running other commercial software that depends on RH). I really think Novell made a dumb decision...

The Impact

The impact is that I was willing to use Novell products in the past, but now I'm not interested in anything they have or will do. I also tell others not to purchase nor use any Novell product. I don't want them to bastardize Linux because we worked hard on this and we don't desire to have Microsoft come in and fuck it up.

Yeah, yeah

Not the first time not the last. Just the tactics - spread FUD and pinch a slice of the market. Year down the line, do it again. That's a cunning and ruthless corporate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel [wikipedia.org]weasel for you.

On the funny side, note that wikipedia article on weasels is compromised by 'weasel words' :)

Microsoft and Novell extend alliance

This must *really* piss you guys off:
Microsoft and Novell extend alliance [vnunet.com]

I know that 99% of slashdotters desperately want the MS/Novell deal to flop, but you're going to have to accept the fact that it's here to stay. And it's causing companies to switch to Novell at Red Hat's expense. Know that.

The point?

What's the point of publishing stories about "the deal" over and over again?

Does anyone really expect some discussion to this story that hasn't already be repeated gazillion times before?

Does this story have anything significant that other stories about "the deal" don't have?

It has made Microsoft the largest Linux OEM

I was talking to a Novell sales support person this evening. I asked him what the effect had been of the Novell/Microsoft deal and he replied that Microsoft is now Novell's biggest OEM partner, he said that Microsoft have sold ~60,000 SUSE licenses with support, at about $5,000 each. $300 million is not a laughing matter.

Microsoft has realized that there are some things that Linux does better than Windows, especially in the server area, and wanted to guarantee a piece of the action. So far they seem to have succeeded. Novell gets the support business, Microsoft gets to keep a customer..

The only difference it has made...

is that I have moved from SuSE to RedHat.

When Microsoft are /still/ FUDding Linux in their advertising, they're not helping shit. Novell gave them a blank cheque to carry on when they signed up. This carries on, I'm going back to RISC OS.

Enthusiasts vs. IT professionals

I disagree with most of the posts here on Slashdot on this issue.

First, let me say that I do not own any Novel or Microsoft stock, and have absolutely no financial interest in any of these companies. I am simply trying to share my experience and observations here.

While I do not like the way OSS/FOSS is being attacked by certain large commercial software vendors, OSS/FOSS certainly has a lot to learn from commercial software vendors when observed from a pure business perspective. It is usually better in some ways, but a lot worse in other ways. And hey - isn't that the way the world works? Open and/or Free does not automatically meens "better" for all people. And ultimately the choice between closed/open/free/free should be a personal one.

I think you should try looking at the Novel/Microsoft deal without letting your personal feelings get in the way. Try to look at this the way a CIO in a medium-large corporation would look at it.

In a complex world, what a good CIO wants the most is interoperability. He/she wants to be able to pick the best IT product for a given task, rather than being tied to a specific set of vendors. Failing that, a homogeneous environment is second-best ... but certainly not desired because the vendor-lock-in is usually more costly. And trust me - the good CIO knows that, they are educated people after all.

I live and work with IT for medium-large enterprises, and I can tell you right now: The Novell/Microsoft deal *HAS* made a difference. The average enthusiast/fanatic might not think so, but in reality it has done one good thing: It has put Linux on the agenda in IT management. And not just SUSE Linux, mind you. The move by Novell to jump into bed with Microsoft may have been controversial, but it did without a doubt make Linux something that CIOs and management talk about when starting up new IT projects.

I believe that Novell will benefit from this deal in the long run. If they can survive all the hammering and flame-campaigns they get from the "community" (a word that usually describes a group of people helping each other?). And I am certain it has helped other Linux distributors as well - simply because it has sent the signal that Linux is something you should take seriously when you are a CIO.

Microsoft took Linux serious enough to make a deal with a Linux distributor. And like it or not, that really HAS helped put Linux (from any distributor) on the agenda in larger corporations. Seing that Microsoft took Linux seriously, many CIOs now do the same.

- Jesper

The difference is

Wel at least some people take Novel serious know i gues.

Who are using this deal anyway ???
Those who where killed by MS licenses but had enough trust in linux, but where not wild enough to realy go into linux.
The kind of customer that still likes to be free, but under the shared wings of novell and MS.
What kind of customers are these i wonder ????

Most likely the type that cannt choose between novel and MS or even UNIX.
The type of customer that's wnat to be sure an like to bett on all horses.
Well i think we shuld all love those kind of customers
The get us lots of work

Dont like my english typing bett you do better with 3 bottles of wine (burb)
wel go ahead, enlight my day and explain why it's a cool deal.

whoehaahahaha (evil grin)...

Heterogenous environments?

Most heterogenous environments include Macs. We are still on Netware 6.5 due to lack of AFP support in OES 1 or 2. Our options will be to migrate to something else as Netware is EOL and will not be supported in the future by hardware vendors. . Why would we move to OES? If we are moving to SMB or NFS mounts we won't go with something that has a more complicated directory service. We will use Apple's built in Active Directory support and use DirXML to migrate to Windows server, Go with Mac OS X Server, or move to Open LDAP on Linux. The last two are especially appealing when you look at client access costs in comparison to Microsoft or Novell servers.