Ubuntu On Dell After Four Months

mrcgran sends us to LXer for an interview with John Hull, a manager of the Linux Engineering team at Dell, where he reports on how the Ubuntu machines have been working out for them so far. "Embracing Ubuntu Linux on our desktops and laptops seems to have really raised Dell's visibility within the Linux community. We have been supporting, testing, developing for, and selling Linux for 8+ years here at Dell, but before the Ubuntu announcement, a lot of people didn't know that we did any of that... Previous to our Ubuntu product announcement... we would have a conversations with vendors about pushing Linux support for their hardware, but without a Linux product offering from Dell for that hardware, it was very difficult to convince them to release Linux drivers. That has certainly changed now... The original sales estimates for Ubuntu computers was around 1% of the total sales, or about 20,000 systems annually. The program so far is meeting expectations. Customers are certainly showing their interest and buying systems preloaded with Ubuntu, but it certainly won't overtake Microsoft Windows anytime soon."

Dude!

Your getting linux!

1% of PC Sales?

Is that total units shipped or just consumer units?

Within the retail sector...

...Dell have raised the awareness of Linux to the point where potentials are actually asking if Windows or Linux is installed. Eighteen months ago, that wouldn't have happened. Eighteen months ago people asked if a machine had XP, 2003, ME, 2K, or whatever version of Windows, but hardly ever Linux. I'm a Linux user myself, by preference (and politic, and budget), and advocate it wherever I can. I'm not saying it's for everybody, it might not be, but if you want a toaster, get a toaster. If you want a toaster that deep fries your sunday roast with all the trimmings, give Linux a go. :)

Re:Within the retail sector...

However, I'm now in a position where I want to install subversion and tomcat, and it's really not easy. Windows wins in this situation, because of the ease of automated installers. Which is a great shame, and I know I'll get lambasted because I haven't done enough research or put the effort into to learning the basics of installing on linux properly, but for it to ever be accepted in the mainstream by your average Joe, things like that need to "just work".

Tomcat and SVN probably isn't part of what average Joe will use.

While it's true that "professional" or "power user" software isn't that easy to setup (messing around in the configs with an editor, etc.), I don't think it would bother the ordinary desktop user very much, because he'll probably never need it.

OTOH, installing everyday software like OOo, Gimp, Firefox, small little games etc. is extremely easy on linux in comparison to windows. Browse repository, install and forget. With the added bonus that the software you get is very probably free of malware of any kind (if you use $DISTRO default repository) and same goes for updates to that software.

Re:Within the retail sector...

Yes, simple;

RPM. Most users can download an RPM, double click on it, and it'll get installed properly.

I'm 99% sure that Ubuntu or Debian people can do similar things with DEBs. Of course, the downside with the package approach is you have to have one package per distro (take a look at Skype; skype isn't in any linux repositories, but it supplies 4-5 RPMs and a binary tarball).

If you prefer something that is more like a Windows installer, use autopackage [autopackage.org]. Autopackages are distro neutral. Here's the quote from their website:
# What is autopackage?
For users: it makes software installation on Linux easier. If a project provides an autopackage, you know it can work on your distribution. You know it'll integrate nicely with your desktop and you know it'll be up to date, because it's provided by the software developers themselves. You don't have to choose which distro you run based on how many packages are available.
For developers: it's software that lets you create binary packages for Linux that will install on any distribution, can automatically resolve dependencies and can be installed using multiple front ends, for instance from the command line or from a graphical interface. It lets you get your software to your users quicker, easier and more reliably. It immediately increases your user base by allowing people with no native package to run your software within seconds.

As you can see from the screenshots [autopackage.org], autopackage is pretty dead-easy for end users.

There are also next-generation packaging utilities that are overtaking Windows MSI-type things, including openSuSE's one-click-install, and KDE's klik://, but neither of these has taken hold with enough Linux distros yet (you have to be using SuSE 10.3, or install a package on older SuSEs, and klik:// requires a kio-slave).

Re:Within the retail sector...

With Ubuntu, if the package doesn't exist, it gets considerably more painful. Painful to the point that I don't think your average user would be willing to put up with it. I think the repository system is great, I just wish that there were decent installers for when it fails.

.DEB is Ubuntu's equivalent of Microsoft's .MSI installer. Ubuntu will load .DEB files (and apt:// URLs [ubuntu.com]) in GDebi, which informs you of any dependencies, resolves them if they are available in any of your repositories, and installed the package. Developers just need to create the .DEB package, they don't need to use a third-party installation wizard. The problem isn't that Ubuntu doesn't have an easy to use installer, its that not every developer bothers to make .DEB files.

Re:Within the retail sector...

I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid, but the examples you use are fairly bad. I'm pretty sure both tomcat and subversion are available in the repos of all major distros. Example in ubuntu:

aptitude install subversion tomcat5.5

Do you have actual examples of "joe average" applications that are not available (things that could legally be available)?

Re:Within the retail sector...

You're making in incorrect assumption. It's EASIER to use a package manager. Most distros (and competent admins) seriously frown upon non-package-manager-installed software because of the problems this can introduce. Also, puTTY? Why? Just stick with the Linux/UNIX equivalents that puTTY was made to emulate. (That's right, puTTY was made for Windows users to get unix functionality, not vice versa.)

Please, tell me one thing that putty can do that ssh, telnet, and xterm can't.

Re:Within the retail sector...

You're making in incorrect assumption. It's EASIER to use a package manager. Most distros (and competent admins) seriously frown upon non-package-manager-installed software because of the problems this can introduce. Also, puTTY? Why? Just stick with the Linux/UNIX equivalents that puTTY was made to emulate. (That's right, puTTY was made for Windows users to get unix functionality, not vice versa.)

Please, tell me one thing that putty can do that ssh, telnet, and xterm can't.

The point is moot, anyway, because putty, putty-tools (plink, pscp, psftp, puttygen) and pterm (putty terminal emulator) are in the Ubuntu repository, ie, if you like them better, you can still use them.

Re:Within the retail sector...

If you're on Ubuntu there are places such as http://www.getdeb.net/ [getdeb.net] where you can get popular programs that aren't in the repositories yet.

Re:Within the retail sector...

Not really. It's more to do with the fact that once a version of Ubuntu is released you only get security updates in the repository. So for example there is no Pidgin in Ubuntu Feisty because that was released after Ubuntu Feisty was.

The reason they only provide security updates is because they don't want a situation where continuously updating stuff in the repositories breaks other programs. Instead Canonical will take a snapshot of all the new programs and work really hard testing that snapshot and sorting out all the bugs, release that out the door and start working on the next version.

So if you want Pidgin or another must have updated program on Feisty then you go to getdeb.net [getdeb.net]

Ubuntu Gutsy is being released on 18th this month (2 days) so that'll have a ton of updated programs, features, etc.

Re:Within the retail sector...

They can't garauntee that Linux works with every hardware configuration, so they create some configurations that do work under Linux, and let you buy from those. Although I think it would be nice if their ordering system figured out that yes, you system was compatible with Linux, and let you choose it, or point out which items aren't compatible with Linux, and offer alternatives.

Sounds plausible, except that they already do this. Some peripherals require Vista or some version of Vista, and you get a little warning if you choose them without having selected whatever is required.

Re:Within the retail sector...

if you want a toaster, get a toaster

I want a toaster with working WiFi drivers. Know where I can get one?

Linux compatibility

Our lab has been buying Dell servers for a few years now, because they certify the machines as being Linux compatible. Instead of checking the hardware specs against the list of available Linux drivers, I can buy knowing that things will just work. Kudos.

okay...

all well and good, but linux or no, i still have serious reservations about buying a system from Dell.

the negative experiences i've had with dell are really not linked to the OS; they're all hardware issues and service issues related to the hardware. show me that they'll support linux equally on the software side *and* that they've stepped up their hardware support, and this will be a bit more interesting.

yeah, this is great news as far as the visibility of the linux community is concerned, but IMO, this changes very, very little about the pre-built PC market.

i'm still gonna build my next linux box.

I for one...

Thank our Ubuntu pushing over lords. This kind of demand from a major vendor is just the kind of visibility that Linux needs for hardware makers to finally start working on Linux drivers on their own. With any luck soon suporting linux will be standard and not some kind of "giving to the weirdos" for hardware makers.

Before the Ubuntu announcement

You had to ask for Linux in a very different way. Now, they are offering a proper desktop alternative, which wasn't the case before, so when he says they've had Linux for 8+ years, it doesn't tell the whole story. There's a difference between offering Linux, under the table more or less, and offering it as an actual alternative to Windows when you're ordering your new laptop.

Nonetheless, kudos to Dell and here's to hoping more vendors pick up this trend.

Distribution matters

ISTR that the distribution that they offered previously was RedHat, probably because it was the "corporate standard". Now that they are offering a friendlier distro, the interest is moving out of the data center and onto the desktop.

It doesn't have to take over...

To be honest, I don't think it has to take over, nor do I think it will. Even Firefox didn't take over IE, but it did have some impact, and Microsoft changed its crappy CSS support to a _slightly_ better one. If Linux achieves ~20% or so it will be much harder for Microsoft to push its proprietary standards, and everyone benefits.

What about dual boot?

What I'd like to see Dell offer is the chance to get both Ubuntu and Windows installed by the factory as a dual-boot system. While I normally use Linux, I need Windows for a few games still. I know, I know, I'm never satisfied. While I'm glad Dell is selling desktops with Linux now, a dual-boot offer would be a great improvement.

Re:What about dual boot?

I bought a Vista box (since the license it probably cheaper and the warranty better server) from Dell: Was this easy or what? I just did a "shrink" to the massive C: in Vista, then booted off of Ubuntu CD and started the install, selecting "guided using freespace" when partitioning. After a reboot, grub had automatically configured Vista into the bootloader. I then edited /boot/grub/menu.lst to set it as the default.

The other way around (adding Vista to a Linux Box) is slightly more complicated:

http://my.opera.com/djfake/blog/dell-preloaded-with-ubuntu [opera.com]

Or you could buy an Intel Mac and use boot camp, that's ea$y enough too! c

Yeah, but where can I buy it?

Surfing around Dell's website I am unable to find the Linux computers. Maybe it's just me, but it should be there, right next to the big button that lets you buy computers with WinXP instead of Vista.

I tried telling Dell this in their fancy questionaire, but it seems the questionaire won't work with Opera.

Re:Yeah, but where can I buy it?

It's under Desktop->Open-Source PCs or Laptop->Open-Source PCs on the Higher Ed. portal I'm looking at.

Ubuntu Preloads

I have a Ubuntu Preload Under warranty from Dell. It runs Feisty Fawn, I love it. I have one little problem. if you load up even a different Linux, you void your warranty, because they have a few proprietary drivers in the machines for some of the hardware, like the Win-modem. So. Here is an interesting question. How do you upgrade from Fiesty Fawn to Gutsy Gibbon without voiding your warranty?

Not in the Netherlands

Dell doesn't offer any sytems with Ubuntu preinstalled in the Netherlands. I was looking for a new laptop for my parents, and I managed to convince them to go Linux. So I went to the Dell website, but alas, no such luck. Still, knowing that their hardware will work with Ubuntu was enough for me to go Dell anyway.

Good for them!

It's nice that the community is supporting Dell in this. I personally made sure a friend bought his new laptop from Dell just because of this. My next desktop will certainly be a Dell.

If they really want to get the ball moving they should tune up their customized installation of Ubuntu and have Walt Mossberg review it again.

Dell and Debian

Dell for sometime has provided pretty decide web support for Debian. The web pages I've come across have always been enough to get me started when needing to setup a new server. :-)

So what! I expect it to work, so where's the beef?

I think Dell still has some work cut out for them before anything "real" happens on their Linux front.

A product has to solve a real world problem AND offer some measurable benefit. So to offer Linux on Dell hardware - server of desktop - solves ONE of the real-world Linux problems: hardware compatibility. But in my view this should only be just the beginning, a good first step. What I am personally looking for is additional benefits on top of plain simple compatibility. Offer me a Linux Laptop that works in all hardware aspects as well as a MacBook, then top it with proven (i.e benchmarked) performance increase. More runtime and bandwidth, faster startup times, additional gadgets or security features, etc. Offer me a software update service that is top-notch (i.e. a distro mirror operated by Dell) and betters the community system. Offer me a software bundle that drives all my hardware seamlessly, i.e. if the Ubuntu distro doesn't have the webcam tool to compete with "Photo Booth", hire 5 programmers and develop it. It's demonstrated real-world betterment over the competition that will sell me for a Dell - compatibility, freedom and $50 off is not enough. So until that time comes, my Linux boxes will be whitebox PCs where I choose the components and my laptop will be a MacBook with a full 'port' install.

--AS

laptops as a loss leader for selling servers

Dell selling a few Linux-on-Laptops at the consumer end makes a lot of sense when you consider they want to grab a bigger chunk of the server market, where Linux holds a great portion of the market share. Get people used to the idea of Linux on Dell, then when they are in the market for a server they come back to what they know. The super reliable Linux experience makes Dell look good. Same angle as RedHat supporting FedoraCore.

What happened?

I'm kind of interested in hearing what's caused the turnaround for Dell over the past year or two.

Dell has more or less had a reputation of being deep in the pockets of Microsoft and Intel. It was no secret that Intel was giving Dell huge perks for not selling systems with AMD chips, and I'd be surprised if Microsoft wasn't offering similar perks for keeping Linux off of consumer desktops.

Now, we're seeing dell open up a lot more options to consumers.

So what happened? Did the payola from Intel and Microsoft stop? Was there a management shakeup? Are they trying to re-focus their image as a serious business vendor to step into the void left by IBM? Or are they just emphasizing "choice" to avoid losing any more ground to Apple (this theory strongly lends itself to their decision to distance themselves from MS because of the Vista backlash)

Or maybe they're finally waking up to the fact that "nerd cred" seriously does sell computers. I would credit OS X's acceptance within the community as being instrumental to the sort of success Apple's been seeing over the past few years -- OS 7,8, and 9 left them with a pretty bad reputation that they needed to shed themselves of. When the guy who's fixed your PC multiple times recommends getting a mac, it lends some serious credibility to the brand. Given that Dell's a pretty generic brand, I doubt that anyone has serious qualms about buying from them, but it's a whole lot better than having a negative brand-reputation, or being badmouthed by everyone in the industry. (See also: Article yesterday about AOL losing $100 billion)

What about Tech Support?

So, has anyone actually bought one of these machines from Dell? Have they employed a legion of call centers to address Linux-related issues and problems (mostly (l)user-created I'm sure)? I doubt actually a legion would be needed considering they have a small market share and most users who buy a Linux box would be more adept at self-diagnosing problems. But, I would be interested to see statistics on how many calls come in about Linux boxes and how many come in on Win boxes.

Do they have trained folks who know Linux commands and system organization or do they follow a series of point-and-click diagnose screens like most Win Tech Support centers. I would be interested to hear about this...

Recommends Vista

"Customers are certainly showing their interest and buying systems preloaded with Ubuntu, but it certainly won't overtake Microsoft Windows anytime soon."

I recently bought a Dell Inspiron 6400 pre-installed Ubuntu (and very good it is too), but looking at the comment above, it is not hard to wonder why, as every time you look at Dell Linux machine options, plastured alone the top is 'Dell recommends Microsoft Vista'.

It is almost as if they are going through the 'Linux' motions half-heartedly.

Typical example found HERE [dell.com]

A missed opportunity

I, for the first time actually got a friend setup on Ubuntu a couple of weeks ago. Normally, being of the Microsoft persuasion, I'd recommend Windows if nothing else for its generally universal familiarity if nothing else (all the other PC's in the house were WinBoxes), but the machine she was given was free and not very good. The Windows installed on it was Win ME that wouldn't get even to the desktop unless in safe mode, so it had to go, but it was not capable of running XP to any degree of sanity (128 mb ram, celeron processor, etc), and indeed there was the licensing issue too.

A perfect opportunity for Ubuntu I thought! Or not, as it turned out.

I downloaded and burnt the latest CD image and installed it. Everything was installed fine, except the network card was not detected, rendering the machine even less useful than the butchered ME installation that was on it before. She only wanted to browse the net and read GMail basically, so without a network connection, the laptop was now as good as a large paper-weight.

Now, this is by no means a flame against Ubuntu at all. Before it turned out Ubuntu was compatible, I was thinking to myself that if there's one area Ubuntu could really grow in is the "too old to run Windows x/y/z" which sets the hardware requirement bar higher & higher with each release.

Despite what Microsoft say, Vista is not suited to all PC's - but arguably, Ubuntu is suited to run on almost anything assuming you don't mind common commercial apps/games aren't going to run for newbies (for obvious reasons).

So, if I had one suggestion for Ubuntu/Linux is please, get it to run on shite hardware! Refurbished machines are overlooked if you ask me as many people really can't be bothered to buy new hardware, and Windows really isn't so suited for them in many cases.

Not in norway. :-(

I was hoping to get a Ubuntu laptop here in Norway.

So far - no such luck. I'm looking forward to that day, so that I can just order one. But until they ship it, it's difficult.

Hey DELL! We norwegians want Ubuntu on our laptops too!

Still kind of iffy on Dell notebooks w/ Linux

I bought a 1720 about a month ago with a Dell Wireless-n minicard and I've still not been able to make wireless work properly. I'll admit I'm still new to Linux, but I've managed to get everything else to work the way I want it. I've followed every tutorial on the net I can find and tried Ubuntu, Fedora, and Suse. Nothing seems to work.

Why am I not surprised?

We have been supporting, testing, developing for, and selling Linux for 8+ years here at Dell, but before the Ubuntu announcement, a lot of people didn't know that we did any of that...

Selling Linux on business systems maybe. Until now