Debian win32-loader Goes Official

An anonymous reader writes "After a long process of review and polishing, the win32 loader from goodbye-microsoft.com has finally made its way to official Debian CDs. Latest daily builds of lenny (the development version) are including it, making starting Debian Installer as simple as just a few clicks (OGG). The win32-loader version, now based on GRUB 2, includes new features such as detection and pre-seeding of Windows settings, and is translated to 20 languages."

Huh?

[spuke4000]

Since none of the links in the story explain what the win32-loader is, can anyone explain what it does?

Re:Huh?

[ZOMFF]

It appears that the win32-loader allows you to begin the install process of Debian from a Windows operating system.

Re:

[Hatta]

Why would anyone want to do that? What's wrong with popping a CD in the drive and rebooting?

Re:

[morgan_greywolf]

Why would anyone want to do that? What's wrong with popping a CD in the drive and rebooting?

Because not all machines are capable of booting from a CD, and, even if it's possible with a given machine, in many BIOSes this capability is not enabled by default. And telling a newbie to go into BIOS setup to change settings is likely to scare the crap out of them.

Re:Huh?

[joto]

And telling a newbie to go into BIOS setup to change settings is likely to scare the crap out of them.

And the newbie would be right.

Installing debian on a windows system should also scare the crap out of a newbie. He will loose all his old files (including family photos), even if this "win32-loader" allows him to keep his worthless bookmarks.

While I have nothing against trying to convince people to try linux, I have something against the people who will try just about anything, including outright lying, in order to make people switch.

bad feeling

[d3ac0n]

What I find interesting is the potential for "Linux Phishing" or "Linux Greifing" that this creates. There are already plenty of problems with various viruses loading directly through the browser in Windows, can you imagine what would happen if a "religious Linux fanatic" were to take this, alter it to use a known but unpatched IE vulnerability to auto-install and reboot people's machines into Linux? What would happen if a "religious Microsoft fanatic" did the same thing to try and make Linux look bad?

I've got a baaaad feeling about this...

the Tux Virus

[hawk]

This scenario was labeled the "Tux Virus" many years ago.

Typically, the scenario involved a win95 themed wm and a far-fetched belief that wine or openoffice could allow the user to be fooled at least briefly.

hawk

Re:Huh?

[Falstius]

I haven't used goodbye-microsoft, but Wubi (which is supposedly based on it) does the same for Ubuntu. It works by installing Ubuntu to a file on the Windows partition. So not only do you not lose your Windows files, you don't even have to perform a relatively risky partitioning. It also leaves the windows boot loader in place and chain-loads grub o you don't have the "Ahh, how do I remove grub!!!!" questions.

Its not the best way to run Linux, but it is a very safe way and faster and more permanent than a LiveCD.

Re:

[replicant108]

Mod parent up!

Wubi is fantastic - it makes trying Ubuntu/Kubuntu as easy as installing an application.

Re:Huh?

[at_slashdot]

<i>"Wubi [...] does the same for Ubuntu. It works by installing Ubuntu to a file on the Windows partition."</i>

No it doesn't, this installer installs Debian on normal Linux partition not to a file.

Re:

[compro01]

not quite non-destructively. I've had some problems with such things wreaking large, heavily fragmented files.

Re:

[fm6]

And telling a newbie to go into BIOS setup to change settings is likely to scare the crap out of them.

And suddenly having their OS disappear, along with all their software and data, will make them feel all warm and fuzzy?

Re:

[petermgreen]

* forgotton bios password.
* motherboard that doesn't support CD booting or at least doesn't support it properly.
* USB or firewire CD drive and a bios that doesn't support booting from it.
* No cd drive at all (the loader can be used to set off an install from the network).

Re:

[r3m0t]

How about not having a CD burner or blank disc, and it's also difficult to find good ISO burning apps?

Re:

[compro01]

1. also from the "scare the newbies" angle someone higher up mentioned.

2. haven't seen this in a long time either.

3. i STILL find computers that have USB booting issues. they seem to be really picky about what they boot off. some work fine with one model of thumbdrive, others require a slightly different one, some refuse to boot off a particular IDE-to-USB bridge used in some USB CD drives.

4. possible, but still the laptop thing, unless you've got a laptop CD-IDE to desktop IDE converter for that brand/m

Re:

[westlake]

It appears that the win32-loader allows you to begin the install process of Debian from a Windows operating system.

Well, thanks, for the info....

But what does it say about the Geeks of "Goodbye-Microsoft.com" that no one bothers to explain something as basic as this? "Use of Debian logo does not imply endorsement by the Debian project."

Well, that is reassuring.

Who are these guys and why should I trust them?

In launching the installer are you committing yourself to a total erasure of your Windows OS,

Re:

[cp.tar]

In launching the installer are you committing yourself to a total erasure of your Windows OS, partitions, etc?

Only if you choose to do so from within the installer.

Re:

[westlake]

Only if you choose to do so from within the installer.

--- and only if the installer does what you tell it to do.

I see a zealot's website with two sparse pages of text, some crappy screen shots, and links that lead nowhere in particular.

Nothing that inspires trust in a program that can do unlimited damage to my system and files.

Re:

[cp.tar]

Unilke the Windows installer, at least you can download the source code and see for yourself exactly what it does.

Re:

[pclminion]

Uh... How is that supposed to be impressive? This is exactly how we all used to install Linux before the age of bootable CD-ROMS. You'd make a root floppy, boot into Windows, and run LOADLIN.

So yeah, I truly congratulate them on achieving what we already had in 1995.

Re:

[hawk]

"we all" ???

No, some of us (most? nearly all?) made some floppies and installed. About 6 for debian, iirc. FreeBSD grew from one to two (assuming you had a network).

hawk

Re:

[morgan_greywolf]

(I know that is possible for a large number of specific Windows applications -through Wine-, but I meant everywhere, transparent, use Windows executables *as if* they were normal Linux binaries)

That already exists. It's called binfmt_misc [wikipedia.org].

Re:

[Reziac]

[reads linked article, becomes confused, rereads article, stays confused]

Okay, how does this work? I gather it acts as a pass-through to a VM or Wine or whatever, but from the user's perspective, what do I have to do? does this come preinstalled with any linux distros?

Use smaller words than Wikipedia did, please :)

Re: Huh?

[dylan_-]

It should be included. See if /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/ exists. If it doesn't, ask in your distro's forums. If it does, maybe just ask in your distro's forums if there's a gui for setting it up! :) But, if you really want to command-line it, next step is check if /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/register exists. If not try:

mount -t binfmt_misc none /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc

and then check again if the "register" file exists. If it doesn't...something's wrong. If it does, then you can add entries like the wikipedia article says. So, you can "cd /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc" and then add a line to "register" of the form :name:type:offset:magic:mask:interpreter:

Here's an example for Windows applications, using Wine.

cd /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc
echo ':Windows:M::MZ::/usr/bin/wine:' > register

Which has:
name = Windows
type = M (use the magic number, rather than "E" which means use the extension)
offset = just left blank
magic = MZ (magic number for Windows executables, if you'd used "E" previous, you'd put "exe" here)
mask = left blank
interpreter = /usr/bin/wine (full path to wherever the "wine" program is)

Now you can run Windows apps just by typing their name, like any Linux program. In fact, since we used the magic number rather than the extension, you could remove the .exe extension and it would still run fine.

You'd probably want to put this in a startup script, or something :)

ld-windows.so.2

[tepples]

(I know that is possible for a large number of specific Windows applications -through Wine-, but I meant everywhere, transparent, use Windows executables *as if* they were normal Linux binaries)

That would require a bit of kernel-level support, but it appears straightforward. The execve [die.net] system call would detect PE binaries (whose data starts with MZ), and then it would use wine to load the executable, in much the same way that it uses /lib/ld-linux.so.2 to load ELF binaries. Wine Traffic 125 [kerneltraffic.org] states that some Linux distributions already do this (or at least have done this at some time).

Re:

[Eunuchswear]

Actualy, if you watch the ogg carefuly you'll see that to make the movie they're running Xp under Debian, using qemu I'd guess.

So you can run arbitrary windows executables from your Linux desktop - you just have to run the whole of windows as well. :-)

Re:

[nuzak]

There have been discussions about "natively" loading other formats, but I think the consensus was that it just wasn't really a win. Symbol resolution and relocation and whatnot isn't really the province of the kernel anyway, it's up to the loader. An ELF executable simply uses /lib/ld-linux.so as its loader, while other apps use other ELF executables. So you might save the space of the loader "stub" if you supported other formats natively, but I don't see any extra functionality coming out of it, and the

Re:Huh?

[Achoi77]

I'm assuming based on the screenshots [goodbye-microsoft.com], it's a little windows app that begins the debian install process. Functionally the Debian ISO it would be analagous to a 'windows upgrade' CD.

But that's my guess

Re:

[gardyloo]

Functionally the Debian ISO it would be analagous to a 'windows upgrade' CD.

Blasphemer!

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It goes much further than just starting the installer. win32-loader is a boot loader that can start a Linux distro from a few files on your (Windows) partition, so Windows users can enjoy the benefits of a fully functional Linux installation without having to repartition their drives, or being unable to boot Windows. So it's really a very easy way to install Linux for dedicated Windows users.

Re:

[LarsG]

So in short it is a loadlin that works from WinNT.

Re:

[JesterXXV]

Seriously, what the hell is the point of editors if this shit doesn't get explained? Ten percent of the summaries simply invoke confusion on my part because nobody bothers to give any background, or even just link to an explanation.

Re:Huh?

[asphaltjesus]

The Win32 loader is a new feature in the Debian installation CD. It makes it even easier to install Debian.

The installation of Debian may be a challenge for some who are afraid of changing the disk boot order in bios. Since bios menus vary, it's practically impossible to make good documentation about getting a CD to boot when it doesn't by default. More subtly, it addresses that weird fear that windows really isn't going away when you install Debian. Personally, I think the distro will be more popular now that the installation cd stops dropping you on a command line where you had to figure out what to type to start the installation process.

FYI: Debian's graphical installer is way, way ahead of the ubuntu installer u-bug-quity in terms of features and functionality. This is one of the many great things going on in Debian right now.

Re:

[gardyloo]

More subtly, it addresses that weird fear that windows really isn't going away when you install Debian.

I love that wording.

Actually...

[norminator]

I think this installer isn't so much about the fear of changing BIOS settings as it is about the fear of changing BIOS settings, repartitioning, and installing a boot loader. So it basically makes installing Linux about as painless as installing other Windows apps. Since one of the biggest complaints (after hardware compatibility and software availability) about Linux is difficult installations, this can potentially go a long way towards introducing people to Linux.

It's probably not the way someone sho

Re:

[CastrTroy]

Isn't that what LiveCDs are for? So people can test out Linux before they have to install it? Optionally, couldn't they include QEMU and have Linux boot up from within Windows, so they don't have to touch the machine at all? If this thing actually ends up installing Linux to the hard drive, whether in a file or whatever, then it's going to have to mess with the boot sequence, which is probably a lot more dangerous than having somebody change a single setting so their computer will boot off CD.

Re:

[rbochan]

See an explanation here [slashdot.org].

Re:

[PinkPanther]

Jarred cheese? It already exists??? Do you know if anyone has patented it yet?

I sure hope not, or that'll be three years of my life wasted in the lab....

Re:

[pintpusher]

The problem with aerosolized cheese is that it gets into the filters and clogs them up and then you have to either climb into the ductwork and replace them or wait for the damn mice to drift over there and chew holes through them. Either way, its a rotten day in the ol' space station when the cheese gets aerosolized.

the win32 debian package

[wizardforce]

Since none of the links in the story explain what the win32-loader is, can anyone explain what it does?

Your wish is google's command
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/win32-loader [debian.org]

Re:the win32 debian package

[frinkacheese]

Now it just needs to be intergrated into a virus/worm the the whole windows world will be converted!

Re:the win32 debian package

[bcrowell]

So in practical terms, does this mean that they can install Debian on a Windows box without having to burn a CD? That could be useful on systems that don't have a CD burner, and could also be easier in terms of cutting down on the number of steps, and eliminating the need to own CD-writing software. It would be totally cool to have an Ubuntu installer that you could download and double-click on, and that would automatically resize your partitions and leave you with a double-boot system; I think there would be a *lot* of people I could convince to try Linux if it was that easy. Although the normal Ubuntu install CD (not the alternate install) already has a live CD feature so you can run Linux without installing it, I've always hesitated to suggest to people that they try Linux from a live CD, because the performance is so horrible that I'm afraid they'll get a bad impression. Of course a live CD can be useful if you want to find out how much of your hardware is supported. Realistically, I think the main obstacle these days for someone wanting to install Linux isn't the need to burn a CD and boot from it, it's issues with (a) printing, wifi, and winmodems, and (b) being committed to file formats that are only supported on Windows.

Re:

[BESTouff]

Not only does it work exactely like you wish, but you wan also try Wubi which does the same thing for Ubuntu without even repartitioning your drive ! The linux system simply lives on your NTFS partition. Isn't life wonderful ?

EULA

[thegnu]

Everyone remember to click right through the EULA like they do in the instructional video, or it won't work. :)

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

It always annoyed me that everyone seems to leaves these details out when comparing software.

If you include the time needed to read, study and understand the EULA, then installing binary software on Windows takes way longer than installing from GPL source in Gentoo.
There are only a couple of open source licenses, and they are usually short and easy to understand, while every little piece of closed software comes with a different license that usually changes on every update, or even without notice.

Having a (

Well that's a bummer.

[kwabbles]

I don't have any Windows machines to test it out on.

Will this work in Wine? :)

Seriously though - nice work, guys.

Re:

[Saint Stephen]

How about a Linux-based installer for Windows?

Just ran the installer

[ZOMFF]

Ran the win32 loader on a test-VM here at work. Pretty quick and painless, 4-5 prompts, 45 seconds of downloading, a reboot and debian was installing. However it was interesting to note that administrative privileges on the Win32 OS are not required. Not that big of a deal for most users, but could prove troublesome in some environments (Corporate, etc).

Re:

[value_added]

Ran the win32 loader on a test-VM here at work. Pretty quick and painless, 4-5 prompts, 45 seconds of downloading, a reboot and debian was installing.

Maybe I don't get it, but isn't that what you'd get out of a typical PXE boot/NFS install?

Re:

[r3m0t]

Yes, if your motherboard supports network boot and you have a computer to store the boot image and you are able to change the boot order of your computer.

None of which is required for this.

Re:

[value_added]

Yes, if your motherboard supports network boot and you have a computer to store the boot image and you are able to change the boot order of your computer.

First, motherboards don't need to support anything other than a NIC. Second, many NICs support PXE boot (I've never encountered a non-off-brand that doesn't going back more years than I count). And changing the "boot order of your computer" (which I assume means "selecting the device order from which to boot") is a function that's part of every BIOS. An

Re:

[wolrahnaes]

Yes, once it's rebooted it's basically equivalent to the businesscard/netboot install images as I understand it. This is just one step lazier for those converting Windows systems. Not everyone has a netboot-capable environment set up at home and double-click is easier than download/burn/reboot/{boot menu,change bios settings}

Re:

[pintpusher]

Several times on debian-user we've referred people to the beta of this system because they've got some esoteric hardware that prevents them from installing from CD. An example would be one of those (warning technical crap follows!!) PATA cd-rom thingies hooked up through some SATA backed fake IDE doo-hickey. The result is that after the OS takes over form the bios, it can't see the cd and thus can't mount it to continue the installation. The win32 loader is perfect for this situation as there are no other h

Re:

[cHiphead]

Toshiba Tablet laptops with no cd or floppy is a perfect example, I had to resort to cludging up a bootable SD card to get ubuntu on the damn thing.

Cheers.

Re:

[petermgreen]

maybe there is something wrong with your windows install, this method relies on changing boot.ini which on a properly set up system should not be possible for non admins.

If your system drive is fat32 or was fat32 at install time and was converted then windows security is basically nonexistant.

Re:

[quantum bit]

>quote>However it was interesting to note that administrative privileges on the Win32 OS are not required. Not that big of a deal for most users, but could prove troublesome in some environments (Corporate, etc). Then your system is broken or otherwise incorrectly set up. The default permissions on boot.ini don't allow non-admins to modify it, so the installer should have failed at that point. Perhaps you're using FAT32 which doesn't support permissions and thus is completely unsuitable to run any N

So many options there.

[marcello_dl]

- Linux on vmware or equivalent
- wubi style installations on a windows partition http://wubi-installer.org/ [wubi-installer.org]
- USB bootable stick
- this new debian installer
- live cds and cd installers
- network

One might find the debian installer useful in those cases where the keyboard is locked on startup of the live cd, which prevents to choose one grub option. I guess it's an OS vs. BIOS issue at reboot, sometime it helps to reboot after a brief disconnection of the pc from power/battery.

Oh wait
- floppies

I recently had to

I still prefer my method

[boudie2]

Mr. Windows partition, meet Mr. fdisk.

Re:

[gnuman99]

You're too kind. I just use,

Mr. Windows partition, meet Mr. dd and Mr. /dev/zero

Hmm, we tell people not to blindly click on exes

[simong]

and the link to goodbye-microsoft.com offers to download... an exe.

(Yes, I am being super paranoid and I know it's a bit of promotion for Debian but I can see someone clicking on that and then wondering where Clippy has gone).

My first thought is virus

[ACMENEWSLLC]

My first thought following the link is that this is a virus. When I follow a link that says "Good bye Windows" which wants to launch an .EXE with no explanation, what else would I think?

I run Ubuntu in VMware. I thought from the article that perhaps I could run Windows programs inside Linux with this. Another WINE.

Re:

[Reziac]

That's what I thought too, from the summary -- Oh boy, now I can run my WinApps on linux without needing to muck about with Wine, VMs, etc. .... aw phooey, just an installer :(

But yeah, what is the average Windows user going to think, when his antivirus pipes up with "debian.exe is a destructive program" -- which most AV apps will (rightfully) say of ANY program that messes with the boot sector.

Well, I guess it's one way to teach people not to click on random download links..!! :)

But as to what it really is

I hope no viruses abuse this...

[r_jensen11]

If somebody created a virus or a worm to automate running this, it would only spell disaster for Linux PR. Let's hope that the Debian crew have some sort of checks to help minimize this possibility.

Where's the linux version?

[RedHat Rocky]

Great, another win for Microsoft, when do we poor linux people get our version?

*****JOKE*****
*****JOKE*****

Please kill kdawson and zonk. Thank you.

[fm6]

Jeez people, when you give us a story, please bear in mind that many of us have never heard of the stuff you're talking about. I had to puzzle for 5 minutes to figure out that a "win32-loader" is Linux installer that runs under Windows. ("Loader" is a really stupid [wikipedia.org] choice of words, but that's another issue.) Yeah, yeah, if my time is that valuable, I shouldn't be wasting it on Slashdot. But damn it Rob, can't you find some editors with some basic communication skills?

OS/2 for Windows

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Remember the badly-named product called "OS/2 for Windows" ?? After IBM's rights to Win16 code expired, they released this product -- it basically installed OS/2 on top of Windows, but it kept enough of Windows intact that not only was your data preserved, but your license to Microsoft's code on that machine remained intact.

It would be interesting to see whether installing a Linux on top of an existing Windows machine could leverage that same type of method. Installing on top of an existing Windows syst

Not new?

[BitZtream]

My first linux experience was booting to it from windows, using slackware, to install into a directory on my drive. Didn't require any partitioning as it used fat and ran on top of that with various hacks to make everything work in a linux friendly fasion. You could start windows, then just run an exe to switch to linux. Of course switching back required a normal reboot, but it certainly made 'trying' linux a easy thing to do. If you didn't like it you just deleted the directory you installed linux into. This was in 1995, give or take a year or so.

Why is this suddenly supposed to be impressive or new? Surely there was a reason that this sort of thing went away, why is it coming back now if it didn't work then?

I found it very useful

[cyborg_zx]

I'm not a n00b but the installer is damn useful in and of itself. I installed debian on an old laptop where trying more conventional methods would have failed badly. Namely because the CD-ROM on the laptop was fucked and it would not boot from a USB key.

Re:

[LinuxGeek]

Yup, including everyone running Ubuntu like me.

Re:

[deftcoder]

But, more specifically, you're running Debian Sid, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Ubuntu seems to have done a pretty good job of stabilizing Sid for the everyday user.

Once they implement LVM/volume encryption into the Ubuntu installer, I may consider using it on my desktop at home. I want /home encrypted at the very least because that's where irssi/gaim logs are stored, and I'd rather not have a malicious person with physical access to my machine be able to get those logs. (short of rootkitting th

Re:

[petermgreen]

Ubuntu does import a lot of stuff from debian sid but they also package a lot of stuff themselves nowadays.

From what I can gather sid isn't too bad most of the time anyway it's just every so often big upgrades come through and break stuff.

Re:What?

[Hatta]

Sid ain't so bad. The system itself is quite stable. What's not is the package repository. Once in a while a large update will present some conflicts in dependency resolution. This will prevent you from completing the update until it's fixed in the repository, but it leaves your system in a usable state. Not really a big deal. For most purposes Sid is an excellent choice. I wouldn't put it on a production server however.

Re:

[stinerman]

The way I look at it is:

Stable = servers
Testing = desktops

Sid/unstable is good if you don't mind having to fix things when they break, but that doesn't happen that much.

I track testing on my main PC. Security updates are slow, but the testing security team is working diligently on fixing that.

Re:

[pintpusher]

But, more specifically, you're running Debian Sid, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Ubuntu seems to have done a pretty good job of stabilizing Sid for the everyday user.

plugwash already said it, but I've got to reiterate it a little more emphatically. The reality of sid is way better than its reputation. There are some mis-conceptions about testing and sid:

1) sid is a horrible monster that breaks all the time -- this is just not true. Sure, parts of it break from time to time, but for a cutting edge desktop, its great -- lots of current packages that mostly work all the time. You do have to be a little cautious with the upgrades, but it doesn't take much work; a little ju

Re:What?

[cortana]

That's why it's best to have both testing and unstable in your sources.list; but to pin unstable to a lower priority than testing.

$ apt-cache policy git-core
git-core:
  Installed: 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
  Candidate: 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
  Version table:
    1:1.5.3.1-1 0
        520 http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ unstable/main Packages
  *** 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
        530 http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ lenny/main Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

In this case, if for some reason git-core was broken in testing, I could easily upgrade it to the version from unstable with a command such as aptitude install -t unstable git-core. But if I installed git-core without the -t argument, the version from testing would have been chosen.

Re:

[MrHanky]

I've used Sid for years with fewer problems than I had the times I tried Ubuntu. If only Ubuntu tested their packages a bit before "stabilising" them, then perhaps it would end up having nearly as high quality as Debian. As it is, Ubuntu seems to me as a quite half-assed effort at bringing Debian to the masses.

Re:What?

[Trigun]

He must be married.

No no no

[A nonymous Coward]

He must be married.

This is slashdot you inconsiderate fool.

No no no to your "No no no"

[Mark_in_Brazil]

He must be married.

This is slashdot you inconsiderate fool.

Um... this is Slashdot. Here we use a slightly different term, you insensitive clod!

Re:

[A nonymous Coward]

Yeh, but look at my user number. I was having a senior moment, you insensitive, uh, young squirt!

Re:

[johnw]

Young people today! They don't know they're born.

Now when I started using Slashdot we had to walk both ways in the snow,.*()^(^&%*%^$
NO CARRIER

Re:

[A nonymous Coward]

I bow to your superiority, you sensitive lump of dirt!

Re:

[Paul Crowley]

Never start this game - you always get trumped :-)

*waits*

Re:

[Oktober Sunset]

Mother won't stay out of the basement.

Re:

[ZorinLynx]

What if a thief breaks in and steals the system?

You can't always guarantee someone won't get physical access to your system.

-Z

Re:

[Verte]

http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity [distrowatch.com]

solid package requirements, automatic dependency resolution, alternative kernels [Hurd/Mach and kfreeBSD]

May seem crazy - but here are my reasons

[walterbyrd]

1) Debian's net install download is under 200mb. I don't have to download, install, and un-install a lot of cruft that I don't want.

2) With debian, I upgrade as I go. I don't worry about the six-month goofy name release. I install debian once.

3) Debian is indifferent to which WM/DE you use. For all debian cares, you don't have to run any GUI. Don't even install X11, it's all the same to debian. And you don't need a different *untu, or whatever, to use a differnt GUI. I happen to use IceWM.

4) IMO, Debian has

Re:

[suv4x4]

For an organization that dislikes Microsoft Corporation and the platforms distributed by them, they seem to spend an aweful lot of time developing software on or for it. [...] With such hypocracy, maybe they can join forces with the Global Warming crowd...

That makes as much sense as calling it a hypocrisy that creating cure against illness require that you have ill subjects to test on.

Re:

[petermgreen]

Debian is a loose knit community of developers with different priorities. Many of theese will have copies of windows (legal or otherwise) they can use to develop and test such a launcher.

I very much doubt this took a lot of time to develop. How to boot linux from NTLDR has been known for a while and the rest of it is really just a simple download manager and a few infromation screens.

Re:

[nuzak]

> I'm not, in any way, implying that Mr. Stallman is a Nazi;

I told Mr. Godwin to go away after reading that, but he insisted on handing me a telegram:

YOU LOSE STOP

Re:

[simong]

I'd rather take apt-get over rpm/yum these days. Ubuntu has made it almost easy to use.

Re:

[gardyloo]

Ubuntu changed it not at all. Apt-get was always easier than rpm-based systems.

"apt-get hell"

[Filter]

>>Who would want to install Debian anyway...? (Score:1)

>> by aswalkeraus (563276) Alter Relationship on Thursday September 13, @11:07AM (#20588309)

>>Seriously.... apt-get hell awaits, ... be afraid, very afraid!

Thats the first time I heard that expression, not a total surprise I guess; google says:

Results 1 - 10 of about 558 for "apt-get hell". (0.30 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 16,000 for "rpm hell". (0.12 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 208,000 for "dll hell". (0.07 seconds)

btw. se

Re:

[wolrahnaes]

to be fair...

1 - 88 of 88 for "deb hell"
1 - 22 of 22 for debian "apt hell" (just "apt hell" got 271 results, but most were in no way related to debian or any OS at all)

Still an order or magnitude less trouble to run an apt based system versus RPMs. There's a reason many RH/FC/COS users run apt-rpm where there isn't anything even close to an implementation of rpm/yum for Debian. The closest I have to get to RPMs is running them through alien to convert to debs in the rare case that there isn't a Debian pac

Re:

[joto]

Results 1 - 10 of about 558 for "apt-get hell". (0.30 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 16,000 for "rpm hell". (0.12 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 208,000 for "dll hell". (0.07 seconds)

btw. see how much longer it takes google to even come up with the list for apt-get, .30 seconds! That proves something for sure.

Yeah. It proves that it's a little used search query, and therefore isn't already cached.

As for the results, it shows that there are more people who are writing on the Internet (directly, or

Re:

[night_flyer]

If Linux isnt as simple as installing a program in Windows then Linux isnt ready for the typical windows user

Re:

[pclminion]

If you need a Windows application to install Linux you are not ready for Linux.

Yeah. Because people without a CD-ROM drive or a BIOS with CD-boot capability don't deserve to run Linux! You're a moron.

Re:

[pclminion]

The likelihood that you have a PC that old is miniscule, given the shitty quality of x86 commodity hardware. PS die, HDs die, when you upgrade CPUs, you need a new motherboard, etc.

It's easy to think that when you live in a rich country. And x86 hardware has gone DOWN in quality over the years. I still have an 8088 with a 20 megabyte hard drive that works just fine. I have a 286 "portable" (the size of a suitcase) with built-in CRT which works just fine. I have a 20 MHz 486-SX that works just fine. Toda

Re:

[BitZtream]

Slashdot is hardly intended for 'common people' Why don't you read a medical journal then complain because they used medical terms that you have understanding of? I guess you think they're holding medicine back too?

Re:Finally I can install Linux on a Toshiba Porteg

[wikinerd]

Does your Portege (very nice machines btw) has an Ethernet port? If its network card supports booting off the network, then you can try booting up this way. If not, then I would suggest removing its hard drive, connecting it to another laptop or to a desktop machine with adapter, writing any necessary files to boot and install Debian or other distro, and then connecting it back to the Portege.