Debian win32-loader Goes Official

An anonymous reader writes "After a long process of review and polishing, the win32 loader from goodbye-microsoft.com has finally made its way to official Debian CDs. Latest daily builds of lenny (the development version) are including it, making starting Debian Installer as simple as just a few clicks (OGG). The win32-loader version, now based on GRUB 2, includes new features such as detection and pre-seeding of Windows settings, and is translated to 20 languages."

Huh?

Since none of the links in the story explain what the win32-loader is, can anyone explain what it does?

Re:Huh?

It appears that the win32-loader allows you to begin the install process of Debian from a Windows operating system.

Re: Huh?

It should be included. See if /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/ exists. If it doesn't, ask in your distro's forums. If it does, maybe just ask in your distro's forums if there's a gui for setting it up! :) But, if you really want to command-line it, next step is check if /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/register exists. If not try:

mount -t binfmt_misc none /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc

and then check again if the "register" file exists. If it doesn't...something's wrong. If it does, then you can add entries like the wikipedia article says. So, you can "cd /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc" and then add a line to "register" of the form :name:type:offset:magic:mask:interpreter:

Here's an example for Windows applications, using Wine.

cd /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc
echo ':Windows:M::MZ::/usr/bin/wine:' > register

Which has:
name = Windows
type = M (use the magic number, rather than "E" which means use the extension)
offset = just left blank
magic = MZ (magic number for Windows executables, if you'd used "E" previous, you'd put "exe" here)
mask = left blank
interpreter = /usr/bin/wine (full path to wherever the "wine" program is)

Now you can run Windows apps just by typing their name, like any Linux program. In fact, since we used the magic number rather than the extension, you could remove the .exe extension and it would still run fine.

You'd probably want to put this in a startup script, or something :)

Re:Huh?

And telling a newbie to go into BIOS setup to change settings is likely to scare the crap out of them.

And the newbie would be right.

Installing debian on a windows system should also scare the crap out of a newbie. He will loose all his old files (including family photos), even if this "win32-loader" allows him to keep his worthless bookmarks.

While I have nothing against trying to convince people to try linux, I have something against the people who will try just about anything, including outright lying, in order to make people switch.

bad feeling

What I find interesting is the potential for "Linux Phishing" or "Linux Greifing" that this creates. There are already plenty of problems with various viruses loading directly through the browser in Windows, can you imagine what would happen if a "religious Linux fanatic" were to take this, alter it to use a known but unpatched IE vulnerability to auto-install and reboot people's machines into Linux? What would happen if a "religious Microsoft fanatic" did the same thing to try and make Linux look bad?

I've got a baaaad feeling about this...

the Tux Virus

This scenario was labeled the "Tux Virus" many years ago.

Typically, the scenario involved a win95 themed wm and a far-fetched belief that wine or openoffice could allow the user to be fooled at least briefly.

hawk

Re:Huh?

I haven't used goodbye-microsoft, but Wubi (which is supposedly based on it) does the same for Ubuntu. It works by installing Ubuntu to a file on the Windows partition. So not only do you not lose your Windows files, you don't even have to perform a relatively risky partitioning. It also leaves the windows boot loader in place and chain-loads grub o you don't have the "Ahh, how do I remove grub!!!!" questions.

Its not the best way to run Linux, but it is a very safe way and faster and more permanent than a LiveCD.

Re:Huh?

<i>"Wubi [...] does the same for Ubuntu. It works by installing Ubuntu to a file on the Windows partition."</i>

No it doesn't, this installer installs Debian on normal Linux partition not to a file.

Re:Huh?

I'm assuming based on the screenshots [goodbye-microsoft.com], it's a little windows app that begins the debian install process. Functionally the Debian ISO it would be analagous to a 'windows upgrade' CD.

But that's my guess

Re:Huh?

It goes much further than just starting the installer. win32-loader is a boot loader that can start a Linux distro from a few files on your (Windows) partition, so Windows users can enjoy the benefits of a fully functional Linux installation without having to repartition their drives, or being unable to boot Windows. So it's really a very easy way to install Linux for dedicated Windows users.

Re:Huh?

The Win32 loader is a new feature in the Debian installation CD. It makes it even easier to install Debian.

The installation of Debian may be a challenge for some who are afraid of changing the disk boot order in bios. Since bios menus vary, it's practically impossible to make good documentation about getting a CD to boot when it doesn't by default. More subtly, it addresses that weird fear that windows really isn't going away when you install Debian. Personally, I think the distro will be more popular now that the installation cd stops dropping you on a command line where you had to figure out what to type to start the installation process.

FYI: Debian's graphical installer is way, way ahead of the ubuntu installer u-bug-quity in terms of features and functionality. This is one of the many great things going on in Debian right now.

the win32 debian package

Since none of the links in the story explain what the win32-loader is, can anyone explain what it does?

Your wish is google's command
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/win32-loader [debian.org]

Re:the win32 debian package

Now it just needs to be intergrated into a virus/worm the the whole windows world will be converted!

Re:the win32 debian package

So in practical terms, does this mean that they can install Debian on a Windows box without having to burn a CD? That could be useful on systems that don't have a CD burner, and could also be easier in terms of cutting down on the number of steps, and eliminating the need to own CD-writing software. It would be totally cool to have an Ubuntu installer that you could download and double-click on, and that would automatically resize your partitions and leave you with a double-boot system; I think there would be a *lot* of people I could convince to try Linux if it was that easy. Although the normal Ubuntu install CD (not the alternate install) already has a live CD feature so you can run Linux without installing it, I've always hesitated to suggest to people that they try Linux from a live CD, because the performance is so horrible that I'm afraid they'll get a bad impression. Of course a live CD can be useful if you want to find out how much of your hardware is supported. Realistically, I think the main obstacle these days for someone wanting to install Linux isn't the need to burn a CD and boot from it, it's issues with (a) printing, wifi, and winmodems, and (b) being committed to file formats that are only supported on Windows.

EULA

Everyone remember to click right through the EULA like they do in the instructional video, or it won't work. :)

Well that's a bummer.

I don't have any Windows machines to test it out on.

Will this work in Wine? :)

Seriously though - nice work, guys.

Just ran the installer

Ran the win32 loader on a test-VM here at work. Pretty quick and painless, 4-5 prompts, 45 seconds of downloading, a reboot and debian was installing. However it was interesting to note that administrative privileges on the Win32 OS are not required. Not that big of a deal for most users, but could prove troublesome in some environments (Corporate, etc).

loadlin?

So it's basically loadlin using grub instead of lilo? I hope it works better than loadlin did...

So many options there.

- Linux on vmware or equivalent
- wubi style installations on a windows partition http://wubi-installer.org/ [wubi-installer.org]
- USB bootable stick
- this new debian installer
- live cds and cd installers
- network

One might find the debian installer useful in those cases where the keyboard is locked on startup of the live cd, which prevents to choose one grub option. I guess it's an OS vs. BIOS issue at reboot, sometime it helps to reboot after a brief disconnection of the pc from power/battery.

Oh wait
- floppies

I recently had to install on an old server with borked cdrom. I had to install potato through bootfloppies and upgrade up to sarge. Went well but i hope not to do it again ever :)

I still prefer my method

Mr. Windows partition, meet Mr. fdisk.

Hmm, we tell people not to blindly click on exes

and the link to goodbye-microsoft.com offers to download... an exe.

(Yes, I am being super paranoid and I know it's a bit of promotion for Debian but I can see someone clicking on that and then wondering where Clippy has gone).

My first thought is virus

My first thought following the link is that this is a virus. When I follow a link that says "Good bye Windows" which wants to launch an .EXE with no explanation, what else would I think?

I run Ubuntu in VMware. I thought from the article that perhaps I could run Windows programs inside Linux with this. Another WINE.

What's the point?

If you need a Windows application to install Linux you are not ready for Linux. I believe the efforts should be focused on improving the usability of Linux (hardware compatibility, software update issues etc.). The installation of many distributions is nowadays a painless process. But what happens after the first reboot can hurt you.

Finally I can install Linux on a Toshiba Portege

I've had a Portege for ages that I haven't been able to install anything on (apart from the existing W2K) because it has no CD, no floppy and no way to boot off USB devices. I'm guessing this will let me copy get Debian on there with a minimum amount of dicking about. Great!

I hope no viruses abuse this...

If somebody created a virus or a worm to automate running this, it would only spell disaster for Linux PR. Let's hope that the Debian crew have some sort of checks to help minimize this possibility.

Where's the linux version?

Great, another win for Microsoft, when do we poor linux people get our version?

*****JOKE*****
*****JOKE*****

Please kill kdawson and zonk. Thank you.

Jeez people, when you give us a story, please bear in mind that many of us have never heard of the stuff you're talking about. I had to puzzle for 5 minutes to figure out that a "win32-loader" is Linux installer that runs under Windows. ("Loader" is a really stupid [wikipedia.org] choice of words, but that's another issue.) Yeah, yeah, if my time is that valuable, I shouldn't be wasting it on Slashdot. But damn it Rob, can't you find some editors with some basic communication skills?

Here's why OSS doesn't attract most Windows users

The above site doesn't give even the slightest information on what the installer does.

Will it overwrite the Windows partition or will it resize it and install itself on a newly created one in the disk free space? Or will it rather install on a disk image file in the Windows partition? Will it backup my existing data automatically or give me tools to do it by hand?
If you don't give this information on the installer and expect someone to run it on a disk where the user presumably stores his own data, you're a fool.

Editors, please, don't publish stuff like this on /. If we want common people to embrace OSS and Linux we must give proper documentation or we'll achieve a strong well deserved opposition.

OS/2 for Windows

Remember the badly-named product called "OS/2 for Windows" ?? After IBM's rights to Win16 code expired, they released this product -- it basically installed OS/2 on top of Windows, but it kept enough of Windows intact that not only was your data preserved, but your license to Microsoft's code on that machine remained intact.

It would be interesting to see whether installing a Linux on top of an existing Windows machine could leverage that same type of method. Installing on top of an existing Windows system presumes that the Windows installation was paid for, and therefore the user is legally running things like multimedia codecs, a bunch of DLL's for use with Wine, etc.

Not saying it would necessarily be a good long-term idea, but it's interesting to think about.

Not new?

My first linux experience was booting to it from windows, using slackware, to install into a directory on my drive. Didn't require any partitioning as it used fat and ran on top of that with various hacks to make everything work in a linux friendly fasion. You could start windows, then just run an exe to switch to linux. Of course switching back required a normal reboot, but it certainly made 'trying' linux a easy thing to do. If you didn't like it you just deleted the directory you installed linux into. This was in 1995, give or take a year or so.

Why is this suddenly supposed to be impressive or new? Surely there was a reason that this sort of thing went away, why is it coming back now if it didn't work then?

Nice!

That's a nice tool for newbies, although I have to say if you don't know how to set up your BIOS to install an OS or you have problems with the Debian installer (not that hard to use), you are a few steps back the road.
I would reccomend distros like Ubuntu or live CD's for total newbies.

I found it very useful

I'm not a n00b but the installer is damn useful in and of itself. I installed debian on an old laptop where trying more conventional methods would have failed badly. Namely because the CD-ROM on the laptop was fucked and it would not boot from a USB key.

anti-Windows virus?

How long until some well-meaning but unscrupulous virus writer creates a virus with this Debian install as a payload?

I'm not sure if that would be a bad thing or a good thing...

Comparable projects for Ubuntu

There are a series of projects for Ubuntu that interoperate to provide a similar, but more flexible system. If a convert from Windows uses Wubi [wubi-installer.org], they end up with Ubuntu installed as several files in Windows' NTFS filesystem. An Ubuntu boot option is added to Microsoft's ntldr that loopmounts and boots the Ubuntu files. This only incurs a slight performance penalty. If the user choses, they can later use LVPM to migrate their Ubuntu data to its own partition. Alternately, if they dislike Ubuntu they can remove it using Windows standard Add/Remove program facility.

• Lupin [launchpad.net], the loop-installer, handles everything that happens after you reboot
• Wubi [launchpad.net], the Windows front-end, handles everything that happens before you reboot
• Lubi [launchpad.net], the Linux front-end, does basically the same thing as Wubi
• lvpm [launchpad.net], Loopmounted Virtual Partition Manager, handles the migration of virtual disks to real partitions

Re:What?

Yup, including everyone running Ubuntu like me.

Re:What?

Sid ain't so bad. The system itself is quite stable. What's not is the package repository. Once in a while a large update will present some conflicts in dependency resolution. This will prevent you from completing the update until it's fixed in the repository, but it leaves your system in a usable state. Not really a big deal. For most purposes Sid is an excellent choice. I wouldn't put it on a production server however.

Re:What?

That's why it's best to have both testing and unstable in your sources.list; but to pin unstable to a lower priority than testing.

$ apt-cache policy git-core
git-core:
  Installed: 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
  Candidate: 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
  Version table:
    1:1.5.3.1-1 0
        520 http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ unstable/main Packages
  *** 1:1.5.2.4-1 0
        530 http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ lenny/main Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

In this case, if for some reason git-core was broken in testing, I could easily upgrade it to the version from unstable with a command such as aptitude install -t unstable git-core. But if I installed git-core without the -t argument, the version from testing would have been chosen.

Re:What?

He must be married.

No no no

He must be married.

This is slashdot you inconsiderate fool.

Re:Kind of Ironic...

For an organization that dislikes Microsoft Corporation and the platforms distributed by them, they seem to spend an aweful lot of time developing software on or for it. [...] With such hypocracy, maybe they can join forces with the Global Warming crowd...

That makes as much sense as calling it a hypocrisy that creating cure against illness require that you have ill subjects to test on.

Re:Who would want to install Debian anyway...?

I'd rather take apt-get over rpm/yum these days. Ubuntu has made it almost easy to use.

"apt-get hell"

>>Who would want to install Debian anyway...? (Score:1)

>> by aswalkeraus (563276) Alter Relationship on Thursday September 13, @11:07AM (#20588309)

>>Seriously.... apt-get hell awaits, ... be afraid, very afraid!

Thats the first time I heard that expression, not a total surprise I guess; google says:

Results 1 - 10 of about 558 for "apt-get hell". (0.30 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 16,000 for "rpm hell". (0.12 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 208,000 for "dll hell". (0.07 seconds)

btw. see how much longer it takes google to even come up with the list for apt-get, .30 seconds! That proves something for sure.

Re:What?

I have found it to be a very good distro. Stable and lightning-fast (I was really amazed when I tried etch in VMware). It kind of feels less bloated than Ubuntu and puts more decisions in the user's hand. But distros will always be a matter of preference.

Re:Kind of Ironic...

Debian is a loose knit community of developers with different priorities. Many of theese will have copies of windows (legal or otherwise) they can use to develop and test such a launcher.

I very much doubt this took a lot of time to develop. How to boot linux from NTLDR has been known for a while and the rest of it is really just a simple download manager and a few infromation screens.

Re:What?

http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity [distrowatch.com]

solid package requirements, automatic dependency resolution, alternative kernels [Hurd/Mach and kfreeBSD]

From "About the GNU Project"

If this was developed in a test-driven environment, wouldn't they have to spend money to license the platform(s) they dislike so much?

Yes, but even Mr. Stallman states that this is an acceptable use of proprietary software. In About the GNU Project [gnu.org], he wrote:

Unix was (and is) proprietary software, and the GNU project's philosophy said that we should not use proprietary software. But, applying the same reasoning that leads to the conclusion that violence in self defense is justified, I concluded that it was legitimate to use a proprietary package when that was crucial for developing a free replacement that would help others stop using the proprietary package.

Re:Kind of Ironic...

FWIW, the win32-loader is interesting in that it gets compiled using entirely free software that's all available in Debian. Getting this to be true of every bit of it was one of the trickier things in developing it. http://packages.debian.org/win32-loader [debian.org]

It's also possible to run it in wine, it won't do anything,
but you can see the dialogs --good enough for the (very little bit of) testing/development that I've done on it.

The win32-loader is mostly the work of Robert Millan, who I'm sure like most of us has several licensed copies of Windows, even if he doesn't want them.

May seem crazy - but here are my reasons

1) Debian's net install download is under 200mb. I don't have to download, install, and un-install a lot of cruft that I don't want.

2) With debian, I upgrade as I go. I don't worry about the six-month goofy name release. I install debian once.

3) Debian is indifferent to which WM/DE you use. For all debian cares, you don't have to run any GUI. Don't even install X11, it's all the same to debian. And you don't need a different *untu, or whatever, to use a differnt GUI. I happen to use IceWM.

4) IMO, Debian has the best package management in the business.

5) With debian I can run a super-stable server, or a bleeding-edge desk, or whatever else. Debian is not a one trick pony. Debian is more like a blank canvas, I can make into whatever I want.

I am glad to see Ubuntu, or any version of Linux, catching on. But I happen to be happy enough with debian.

Re:Kind of Ironic...

For a corporation [Microsoft] that 'dislikes' UNIX/Linux/etc. they seem to spend an awful lot of time developing SFU [Services for Unix]..

Microsoft does not dislike Unix. After all, they once had one of the best selling Unix versions, Xenix (best selling on the basis of # copies installed, but at the time most Unixes were for many users using terminals, dumb or X windows).

They just dislike any Unix that they cannot control. Services For Unix is a way of maintaining the chance of exerting control over another group, rather than let that group drift off and never possibly return under their influence, let alone control. If they can come up with a SFU killer app, they might even recapture the non-kneejerk-MS-haters portion of the market segemnt. And they have an infinite supply of cash just sitting there, so why not give some of their developers something to do when not working on the money-makers?