Dell Refuses to Sell Ubuntu to Business

An anonymous reader writes "I had a surreal experience with Dell today. My boss asked me to order a new computer for our small, non-profit business. Wanting to support Dell in their decision to sell computers with Ubuntu installed, I decided to order one. First, I talked to a small business representative, who informed me that I could not order one of the Ubuntu-based computers through the small business department. I had to go through the "home and home office" department. I called the Home office department. I asked the representative if I could buy one of the ubuntu computers for my company. She said (and I quote), "these Dell computers are designed for personal use only, as long as you use it for personal use, you can purchase one." So I lied and said I would.... Next, I tried to buy it on our business credit card. They would have none of that. She told me that I had to buy it through a personal card. Now, as a non-profit, our business does not pay sales tax (10% in Tennessee). Had I bought it with my own card, I would have had to pay tax (~$90), which my company would not have reimbursed me for. So.....no Dell today."

So...

...take your business, literally, elsewhere?

Re:So...

Except if you're looking for FOSS OS laptop, where do you take it? Even most custom build places push Windows to every system. This is a real disappointment. Is Dell trying to avoid supporting these machines in a corporate environment? That's half-assed support, and Dell should be held accountable for it. Either stand behind your product, with the disclaimer that Linux-based may not work for everyone, or don't sell the damn things at all.

Re:So...

Except that I don't want to pay for OS X if I'm just going to use it for a FOSS OS... another user did point out, quite correctly as I found, that you could just purchase a Dell with FreeDOS for businesses... why, why, why.

Re:So...

You are still probably paying Microsoft for that box, Microsft may charge by number of units sold with or without the OS, so Dell could get a discount on the OS.

Microsoft used to do that. That's the reason we all use Windows today instead of one of the other half dozen better choices that came out at the same time as Win3.0 Anyway, Clinton stepped in around 95 or so and got the wonderful agreement out of MS that said "We're not admitting we did anything wrong, but we won't do that ever again."

Not What He Wants

1) The build the cost of OSX into the price of the machine.
2) Apple PC's use the same hard drives as Dell, IBM, HP, and home built computers
3) Businesses that standardize on Windows don't want Apple PC's. They don't want to dual boot user workstations, and they don't want to deal with the extra complexity. They also don't want to pay those prices for the name Apple, like consumers do. The Apple notebooks aren't as overpriced as the Mac Pro, but they aren't an inexpensive option.
4) Dell's business support is pretty good.
5) He wants to buy a machine, with a free OS, without the big fuss. A Mac + BootCamp + Ubuntu + unsupported = Not What He Wants.

Macintoshes aren't always the solution. Get over it.

Re:So...

Even with the news of Dell having Ubuntu systems (including laptops) I still went with System76 for reason exactly like this story. I have been happy with their service and support and I am glad I bought my laptop from them.

The keyboard on the laptop (Pangolin Value) is not as good as my IBM work laptop, but not bad. The display is great though, which is what I care about most.

Re:So...

LinuxCertified [linuxcertified.com] sells laptops with various Linux distros preloaded and fully supported.

System76

http://system76.com/ [system76.com] Great laptops, reasonable prices, Ubuntu ships on the beasts. What more could you ask for?

Re:System76

http://system76.com/ Great laptops, reasonable prices, Ubuntu ships on the beasts. What more could you ask for?

I tried configuring a computer on system76 and Dell, and when you put together comparable machines, the system76 one is several hundred dollars more expensive.

Re:System76

They compete on service. Scale is a major factor, but dell skimps on the service, not the parts.

Re:System76

I hear *tons* of horror stories about Dell's customer service... My short experience was far from a horror story.

I ordered my laptop without checking the screen resolution (a big no-no, I know, but it just didn't occur to me). So when I got it, I was surprised to find that my max resolution was 1280x960.

I called Dell's customer service to ask if I could return it and purchase a laptop with a higher screen resolution (1680x1050, the highest they offer on a 15" laptop). Obviously, I was expecting to pay the difference in price, or get the first purchase refunded and then pay the second purchase price.

The lady I spoke with said she'd see what she could do and call me back.

She called the next morning saying she arranged an unlike exchange - Not only did she get the laptop exchanged for free (So I got a $100 upgrade for free), I was able to keep the first laptop until I recieved the second one so I didn't have to go a week or so without a computer.

So... Not *all* Dell Customer Service stories are horror.

Re:So...

Here's two FOSS laptop and system choices right off the top of my head:

http://system76.com/

Custom Linux laptops.

http://www.penguincomputing.com/

Linux servers and clusters.

Dell's choice to not sell to businesses should give these guys a fair boost in sales.

Probably a licensing issue

Microsoft's per-processor licensing survives, but in the form of per-model licensing. I'm sure that Michael Dell had to personally kiss Steve Ballmer's pinky ring in order to provide Ubuntu without having Microsoft double their Windows licensing fees. Part of the agreement being to keep it out of their business computers. Total speculation on my part, but there must have been some seriously tough negotiating at the highest levels of management in both MS and Dell to make this happen.

I am pretty impressed with Dell for doing this - it is worth it to live with a home PC even though the support sucks and it is harder to purchase.

Re:Seems unlikely

Well, we're talking about the US here. Yes, there are antitrust laws but nobody even cares to enforce them especially when it comes to Microsoft. Remember the antitrust lawsuits in the US? Microsoft came off with not even a wag of the finger.

Yes they are pulling these stunts every single day. Go to any medium-to-enterprise sized business that has more than one SQL Server. Ah, you thought they really paid that 35000 license per server? Well, yes, unless they agree not to use Linux or MySQL.

Re:So...

Hmm... I find it hard to understand. I bought my laptop from Dell thru work via dell's site and the default was "no os", and that was only about 4 months ago now i think?

Do they not allow that anymore?

Re:So...

what if you want to buy it with Ubuntu pre-loaded, so you can get support?

Home and Business support are different groups

... Is Dell trying to avoid supporting these machines in a corporate environment? That's half-assed support, and Dell should be held accountable for it. Either stand behind your product, with the disclaimer that Linux-based may not work for everyone, or don't sell the damn things at all ...

Dell is doing exactly what you recommend, they do not want to offer half-assed support to businesses so they do not sell it to businesses. Keep in mind that Dell has completely different support teams for home and business. The business side will take a much longer time to train up on Linux than the home side, more variations and usage patterns. Also keep in mind that the economics/profitability of Linux is entirely different for home vs business. Home is probably more likely to just go with a canned configuration, business more likely to customize the Linux installation. Ubuntu should have been a clue that this was home centric.

Re:So...

It's not about getting ubuntu to run on a box. In business, it's about getting vendor support.

Re:So...

Exactly. For all i care Dell can DIAF!! Slam Apple all you want they pretty much dont give a DAMN what you do with thier systems. [..] So for all you dell fan boys heres one more case of why Dell should not be purchased from...

Go back and consider what the original point of the story was, and answer this question: Will Apple sell you a Macintosh *without* Mac OS and/or with Linux? No? Enough said.

Yes, I'm sure Apple will graciously let you replace Mac OS with a Mac-compatible Linux. Just like Dell will let you replace Windows with Linux.

Re:So...

I'm not sure if you're aware of this. Apple sells hardware primarily.

Whereas Dell's business revolves around selling dreams and pixie dust, I suppose?

Thank you for the deliberately patronising lesson, but I'm well aware of how Apple work, and your assertion that they're a hardware business is questionable. Why? Because although they may make their money on the hardware, that same hardware is nowadays near-identical to generic x86 PCs and the reason people buy it is so it can run the Mac OS.

Disagree? I'd be interested to find out whether your average Mac fanatic- if forced to- would rather use Mac OS on a half-decent generic PC or Windows running on Mac hardware.

The OS is considered free with the purchase of the hardware.

That's a matter of perspective, don't quote it like it's gospel. Apple certainly charge for upgraded versions of the software, and so it's probably more accurate to say that the hardware and OS are included in the price. As I said, no-one would buy the hardware alone.

Why dell does this

I think the reason dell does this is fairly obvious. Small business sales at dell have different service policies than home sales. For example they get US tech support rather than tech support outsourced to India. They have different on-site repair policies. The computer selection is different too. And of course they probably have greater risks in case of negligence with businesses. So they presumably want to dry run the linux model in the consumer market before investing in the infrastructure to support it in business. e.g. easier to temporarily hire an outsource crew that can do Linux support than to retrain your US staff.

Now as for why not accept the business credit card on the consumer web site. Well that has nothing to do with this being a linux machine. That's just their policy in general. I'm sure they'd love to make an exception for linux machines, except that the market is so tiny why bother to have policy exceptions. People would exploit them and pretty soon you'd have businesses buying the $399 consumer entry-level dells rather than the business class machines then turning around and getting angry when they get outsourced tech support.

Employee Gift

Why not purchase as an employee gift. I would not buy from Dell myself but if I did that is what I would do.

"Its Mary's 30th year with the organization, we want to do something special for her."

Buy the old school Open Source systems

Dell has been selling systems through the business end with FreeDos for a while now. Purchase one of those and install Ubuntu yourself. It really isn't that hard and you can actually customize the install to what components you actually need. Or you could purchase one and install any free distro you want.

I can list the millions of reasons why they only want to sell it as "personal use". Remember, Dell (and any other PC company) is still a business designed to make money and if they cannot please everyone all of the time, oh well.

Re:Buy the old school Open Source systems

Furthermore, Dell business support and consumer support are TOTALLY different groups. It's quite probably that the business group has no ability (training, etc.) to support Ubuntu boxes.

Probably Red-Tape

They probably have a system in place that allows only businesses to buy business PCs, irrespective of whether its running Linux or not. And they probably see Ubuntu as only being appropriate for personal work, hence ..

Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. Doesn't make this any less annoying though !

Re:Probably Red-Tape

My guess is this probably has a lot to do with tech support. They outsource their support to the lowest bidders, and the lowest bidder then runs their support through a call center in India or some little podunk town in the states. These people then hire anybody able to speak into a headset. Some don't know anything about a computer other than how to play solitaire, others can barely turn one on. Teaching a whole new operating system to them would take years, IF it could be done at all. That's why they dropped the hardware support, and why they can't sell them to businesses. They know they have no way of offering reliable support for them, and they dont want to piss off their business customers with horrible tech support and risk getting a lawsuit against them for lost revenue.

I loath Microsoft, but I understand where Dell is coming from with their lack of support for Ubuntu, it's just not financially viable to train agents to support it. They have to protect the stockholders first and customers come second. I disapprove of this system, but that's a rant for another thread. I see a day in the distant future where Dell will slowly begin expanding it's Ubuntu selection and support. But i think it will be a long long time, and people complaining about how poorly they are doing now is only going to discourage their effort.

Re:Probably Red-Tape

Being in a company that has a license so that every computer/server I purchase must be purchased from Dell, I now know that Dell is very anti-Linux in the workplace. I had one server start blowing white smoke out the back just before it burned up and died. I called Dell to try and get it fixed under warranty. They asked for some Windows code. I told them I had RedHat on it. They said that since I put a non-Windows OS on it, I voided the warranty. Later, I had a desktop PC lose a harddrive. I called to see if I could get a replacement drive under warranty. They told me I had to try to run some Windows diagnostic program. I explained that the drive is dead - so I can't run anything - and it was running Fedora anyway. Oops. Since it didn't have Windows, it isn't covered under warranty. Again, I had another desktop with a broken CD tray straight out of the box. I called to complain. This time, I didn't even put Linux on it because I couldn't - the CD tray wouldn't open enough to get the Linux CD in there. They looked at my history and said that they don't warranty my computers because I have a history of installing unsupported operating systems on them.

Re:Probably Red-Tape

Then please, PLEASE, have your Dell people call my dell people at [phone] and tell them to start honoring our warranties.

Re:Probably Red-Tape

You really don't seem to know what your talking about. Redhat is SOLD by Dell on all of their server models. And I happen to know that they support both hardware and some software issues with Redhat as your OS. They even create alot of driver update packages and other support things for Redhat and SLES on servers.

You're all missing the point

Businesses AREN'T SUPPOSED to have opinions on the likes of SOFTWARE! Only GEEKS do that...

No, its an agreement with RedHat

The article is misleading. Dell will sell businesses workstations and even servers with Linux on it, but not Ubuntu Linux. If you go to www.dell.com/linux, you can see that all the Linux-based business hardware is, in fact, RedHat.

It is quite obvious that Dell has a contractual agreement with RedHat that the only Linux that Dell will sell to business customers is RedHat, probably in exchange for RedHat kicking in support for those systems. They legally could NOT sell Ubuntu to this guy as a business, because it would have been a breach of contract with RedHat.

Don't want to pay the Microsoft tax and support Dell in its efforts to support Linux? Great! Buy a RedHat-based Linux workstation instead, then do what you want with it.

I can see

I can see why they might want to sell different products in their different "channels", presumably they have different support staff for each one and not all are trained for all products.

I can't see why they won't accept a business card for an item purchased in the "home / home office" section though.

FreeDOS or Red Hat available on Small Business

Dell segments its business based on how customers are perceived to use their systems. This is why a consumer can't purchase a Latitude notebook, yet Small Business customers can. Support is also divided along these lines for the most part. You can purchase Gold Support "highly recommended" on business machines but not so on the consumer machines. Ubuntu Linux, as far as I can tell, is being offered as a consumer grade operating system at this time.

I would wager if you talked to the Small Business sales rep again you could still purchase an nSeries system with FreeDOS on it or you can purchase a Precision Workstation with Red Hat Linux. Simply go to www.dell.com/nseries.

Re:FreeDOS or Red Hat available on Small Business

www.dell.com/linux [dell.com] still works too, and you can see that they have links to "dell and novell, dell and red hat, dell and ubuntu" as well as "Workstations for Office" and "FreeDOS Desktops for Office", among others. So, I understand that the point of the article was "i wanted to support Dell's decision to sell Ubuntu", but if the end goal was simply to have a Dell system that shipped with Linux then the guy simply missed all of the options that are there.

I still don't think there is anyway to find that page without directly going to dell.com/linux, which is sad.

Monty Python: Spam Skit

Customer: "I would like a Dell and Ubuntu without Ubuntu on it."

Dell: "You can't have it."

Customer: "Why not?"

Dell: "Well it wouldn't be a Dell with Ubuntu now wou'it?..."

Dell is speaking out of both sides of it's mouth

As it would appear that they sell LINUX computers so that they can get positive mindshare from the Slashdot types, but they don't want to make it TOO available to people like businesses so that they don't get Micro$soft too angry when they go to re-negotiate their OEM agreement.

What this basically means is that LINUX is no further ahead at the end of the day.

Re:Dell is speaking out of both sides of it's mout

Dell wants to sell computers with Linux on them, (or, even better, SAY that they do) they just don't want to have to support computers with Linux on them.

Re:Dell is speaking out of both sides of it's mout

That would be why they offer redhat support [dell.com] and SuSE support as well.

The full list of supported linux can be found here [dell.com]. Just because one guy wants to buy one machine that doesn't come with Ubuntu, everyone is up in arms. Dell never claimed that they were going to offer it on every machine. They're damn careful what they offer for business machines in general, and you can always get a business class machine with no OS.

Buncha fricking sheep. Dell's making a good effort on linux.

You're kidding, right?

That sounds like a match made in hell. You get to enjoy all the disadvantages of Linux *and* all the disadvantages of Windows at the same time. Your Windows services and kernel are still exposed to malware, you have all the DRM fun of the Windows world, and you have more overhead when running the UNIX applications you bought the computer for.

And you quit?

Umm, and you didn't hang up and call them back and get another salesperson who doesn't give a crap?

Thats the tactic I use. You always run into stubborn people in the service industry, but 9 times out of 10, the next person you reach won't care either way and will process your transaction just fine.

I had a similar experience

I was interested in supporting Dell and it's Ubuntu decision. I'm not traditionally an Ubunutu user. I've SuSE/openSuse on my 3 year old Dell laptop since I got it years (didn't have any hardware compatibility issues and auto-detected everything important) and otherwise use CentOS and Debian but thought it would be worth buying one just to ease hardware selection since laptop hardware changes so much.

I looked at the specs for the Ubuntu laptop. 6 pounds! Holy crap, no way in hell I'm lugging that around. My current Dell laptop is under 3lbs. I brought up the page for Dells smallest laptop and wanted to compare the hardware to their Ubuntu one. I buy under government/higher-ed. Guess what...no mention of Ubuntu as an OS option in that category. Looks like it's only available in the Home section.

Ho hum, back to the old fashioned way. Checked for wifi support before I bought the littlest one, paid the MS tax, and kept my fingers crossed.

Dell's Ubuntu option is a nice idea, but restricting it to a single Laptop isn't all that engaging.

Dell is not first and not unique

I had the same experience with HP a couple of years back when it decided to offer PCs with Mandrake. They were not available through the business channel and that was it.

Fuddy fuddy fud fud.

It's not about that. Dell makes "Business computers" they have whole lines of "business" computers, very specific models; Optiplex, Precision, PowerEdge. They come with a limited number of OS choices...which includes Redhat Enterprise and SUSE Enterprise.

You can't buy Ubuntu on one of those, and you can't buy windows xp either. Clearly Dell views Ubuntu as "not ready for the server" and is unwilling to put it on a server class machine. You can still buy the machine with no OS, and add Ubuntu yourself.

Re:Fuddy fuddy fud fud.

No need. Business class machines have the "No OS" option right there with the other OS options. I use that more than I use the pre-installed linux options, frankly. I like being able to set it up myself, and choose what I want to be installed.

Dell is in some serious trouble.

This habit of jerking customers around is why they're going to follow Gateway down the drain. Good for HP and Apple, sucks for Dell's customers and shareholders.

-jcr

FUD FUD FUD

Look, I'm no DELL fanboy but it's obvious that in an organization as large as Dell it's going to take time for the whole company to be on the same track. There could be any of a number of LEGITIMATE reasons for what you encountered. I'm just going to guess, but one reason COULD BE that they are not yet ready to support biz fully and that they are starting off with personal use first and will soon add biz support as soon as the contracts are signed, people are trained, testing and evaluation, etc.

Just because Dell says we will support LINUX today does not mean tomorrow morning everything will be good to go. BTW...the prior sentence uses exaggerations to make a point. If you don't get it you don't get it.

GPL = no commercial use

I know, the subject is simply not true. But this the perception out there nonetheless...

She said (and I quote), "these Dell computers are designed for personal use only, as long as you use it for personal use, you can purchase one."

My recent surreal experience went like that (talking to sysadmins in a giant financial company, with thousands of Unix-servers):

• Hi, can we, please, have the OpenSSH package added to our Solaris 8 boxes?
• No, not OpenSSH — we can put Foo SSH for you, we have a site-wide license for that.
• Yeah, but the newer Solaris 10 machines come with OpenSSH, and Foo has some minor incompatibilities with it (scp does not work right)...
• Sorry, OpenSSH is GPL-ed, and so we can not use it here .
• What? That's double untrue — OpenSSH is BSD-licensed, and even if it were GPLed, there is nothing preventing us from using it — only if we were to modify it, would we run into any license provisions!
• Sorry, that's our department's view — talk to such and such... We can disable OpenSSH on the Solaris 10 boxes for you, and install Foo SSH there, if you need the compatibility...

How do you like that?

Re:Same thing at my Uni

>Due to an extremely silly incident involving a support contract a server running an Oracle instance, I've avoided DeLL for years

Did they insist on you shutting down a production server to run their stupid diagnostics tool when you called in a bad disk?

They did this to us a few years ago. They kept on refusing to send a replacement disk, insisting on *proof* that the disk was indeed bad. The diagnostics software they wanted us to use required us to shut down the server, which would have been extremely disruptive. Eventually we just said forget it, called back, and got a different rep who eventually finally caved and sent us the disk.

Granted, this was years ago, and their service has since improved, but that was a pretty brain-dead policy to have even back then.

-Z

Re:GPL infringement?

"Nice Try. But Dell's not just selling you Ubuntu, its also selling you the computer on which you're running it. And they *can* place additional restrictions on the hardware."

No they can't. It has nothing to do with the gpl, and everything to do with consumer protection laws (even business purchases are covered in many jurisdictions by the implied warranty of fitness for use). Unless the hardware comes with a per-seat or per-user license, which is not the case here, they cannot tell you how to use it. All they can do is refuse warranty support if its been abused. That is their SOLE option/recourse.

Buy the damn thing and get a refund on the Windows license. The instructions have been posted on the net, including here on slashdot, often enough ... (and tag another $100 onto your claim, for wasted time, since they refused to sell you one without a Windows license, and take them to small claims court for the extra $100).

Re:Why go with Dell?

> American Consumers are DUMB!

Yes. Along with pretty much any nationality you can think of. We're all dumb.

If Dell won't sell one particular configuration through one particular channel, there'll be a reason for it. More likely than not, it's not profitable for them to do so - it'll cost them more to do you a special than they'll make back in profit.

If that's the case, they don't want your money - they may just as well mail you a check/cheque for the difference and call it quits. They're hardly likely to do that now are they?

I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who complain when a company won't take their cash. If they won't take it, they don't want it and your complaining isn't going to do anything about it.

Anyway, allow me to climb down off my hobby-horse. If you want to make Dell pay, buy a normal Windows-ified PC and claim the money back as per the EULA.

So, don't complain - you have no right to complain. However, what you do have is a choice. Use it.

Re:Why go with Dell?

No, consumers in general are dumb. If they weren't, they would be customers.

Thus I feel vaguely insulted every time someone calls me a consumer.

Re:Why go with Dell?

Why is it somehow bad to call out a company for a stupid business decision?

I mean, I don't have to buy for them, but I sure as hell don't have to hold back my "they're stupid monkey fucking gutter slut" comments, either.

Plus, it's nice to know for the rest of us. It's nice to know what businesses to avoid if the situation ever comes up.

It's pretty pathetic that you complain about the right to free speech. American Consumers are dumb? I'd say the idiot who bitches about free speech is dumb. But hey, far be it from me to stop you. Even retards are allowed to get their say in. Freedom of speech and all.