ZFS On Linux - It's Alive!

lymeca writes "LinuxWorld reports that Sun Microsystem's ZFS filesystem has been converted from its incarnation in OpenSolaris to a module capable of running in the Linux user-space filsystem project, FUSE. Because of the license incompatibilities with the Linux kernel, it has not yet been integrated for distribution within the kernel itself. This project, called ZFS on FUSE, aims to enable GNU/Linux users to use ZFS as a process in userspace, bypassing the legal barrier inherent in having the filesystem coded into the Linux kernel itself. Booting from a ZFS partition has been confirmed to work. The performance currently clocks in at about half as fast as XFS, but with all the success the NTFS-3g project has had creating a high performance FUSE implementation of the NTFS filesystem, there's hope that performance tweaking could yield a practical elimination of barriers for GNU/Linux users to make use of all that ZFS has to offer."

Why not in the kernel?

The in-kernel vs userland distinction has always struck me as quite arbitrary. So in one case you're linked at compile time and in another case you compile them separately and go through system calls. Why should that make one of them a derivative work and the other not? In either case the file system can be taken out and you still have a perfectly functional kernel that can run other file systems. Same goes for graphics drivers.

The GPL doesn't attempt to codify all the intricate details that it would take to define such a distinction in the license. It's only described as an accepted rule of thumb in the FAQ. So what's the deal? It seems like this rule is really holding back some commercial support for Linux - is the current situation what we really want, and at any rate how did we get here? Would we be better off if such a separable, non-essential feature could be linked in somehow instead of needing to be put behind extra layers of abstraction?

Re:Why not in the kernel?

Alright then, how about "The de-facto understanding is..."?

The existence of the LGPL goes some way to suggesting that this indeed is the generally accepted understanding. It's not been codified in any legal judgement that I'm aware of, but that's only becaue there have been relatively few legal judgements worldwide on this particular aspect of the GPL. Most breaches seem to be far more flagrant.

"The FSF guideline is"

The FSF has used the syscall interface as a guideline to determine whether something is a derived work or not. It is a guideline, not a hard rule though, and I suspect they would consider user-space ZFS for a derived work using a technical trick to avoid being linked into the kernel. I.e. infringing. However, since the FSF doesn't own the kernel, their opinion on the subject doesn't matter.

Re:"The FSF guideline is"

The FSF has used the syscall interface as a guideline to determine whether something is a derived work or not. It is a guideline, not a hard rule though, and I suspect they would consider user-space ZFS for a derived work using a technical trick to avoid being linked into the kernel. I.e. infringing. However, since the FSF doesn't own the kernel, their opinion on the subject doesn't matter.

OTOH, some respected kernel developers (e.g. Alan Cox) certainly have explicitly said they believe binary kernel modules must be GPL and that things like nvidia's drivers are probably infringing. Not exactly the same thing but it's enough that I'd still call this a grey area until it's tested.

Re:"The FSF guideline is"

The FSF has used the syscall interface as a guideline to determine whether something is a derived work or not.

I don't believe that's true. I think you're thinking of the explicit exemption Linus put in the COPYING file of the Linux kernel to say that the syscall interface was a GPL interface (there are Linux contributors who disagree to an extent with him on that).

Re:Why not in the kernel?

"It has been decided": When? By whom?"

Linus decided. He wrote specific terms into the modified version of the GPL he uses with Linux. He makes it very clear. Linux does NOT use the "standard GLP" it makes a few changes for example he removed the "and later versions" part.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

Linus decided. He wrote specific terms into the modified version of the GPL he uses with Linux.

Retroactively, AND claiming to cover code for which he is not the copyright holder. The notice at the top of the COPYING file in the kernel source code more-or-less amounts to his opinion---and if you do a little research (read: Groklaw), you'll find that Linus clearly isn't a lawyer and doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to legal matters.

"Linus said so" is just not a valid argument about a legal matter, unless you're trying to defend yourself against a copyright infringement claim that he's making about code he holds the copyrights for.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

Linux does NOT use the "standard GLP" it makes a few changes for example he removed the "and later versions" part.

Wrong. Here is the COPYING file for the Linux kernel [kernel.org].

He has added a note clarifying that userland programs making system calls are not derivative works. That is clarifying his interpretation of the license. At the most, it adds an exemption, which is common practice.

The "and later versions" clause is not part of the GPL, it lies outside it. In effect, it makes the work automatically multiple licensed as and when new versions of the GPL comes out: so if you distribute something under GPL v2 with that clause, when v3 comes you it will become dual licensed under 2 and 3, when v 4 comes out it will be triple licensed etc. This allows people to redistribute under v2 or any later version, with or without the "and later versions" clause.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

Constant changes in and out of kernel space are never good for overall system performance.

Re:But, doesn't Linus...

He certainly owns the rights to parts of the Kernel, and thus his opinion on the matter has some importance. However he has incorporated patches into the source tree without requiring that the copyright be turned over to him, and thus, just about everyone who has contributed to the kernel collectively 'holds the copyright' to it.

The Linux kernel, for better or for worse, is going to be stuck at GPLv2.

Re:Ah, well then...

Yes, there are many times when copyright prevents the creation of new works. For example, I can't modify Harry Potter 6 so that Dumbledore doesn't die at the end and re-sell it. At least, not until the copyright expires. Once the copyright expires, you get great works like Wicked and Son of a Witch, both of which are based upon The Wizard Of Oz. Of course, no more copyrights will ever expire, thanks to greedy copyright-holding corporations and a corrupt government.

The idea, though, is that the work which you wish to modify might not have existed at all had copyright not existed. The person who created the work might not have desired to if s/he wasn't going to be able to sell it. Or they might not have been able to devote their lives to their craft, and thus ended up not having enough time to create as much. I highly doubt that the entire library of Stephen King would exist today if he wasn't a professional writer, paid for his craft.

It's obviously impossible to know what might have been, but I think that the reasoning behind copyright (in general) is sound. The problems in the current implementation are that copyright is effectively endless (meaning that the creation of new works based on the original is forever forbidden--forever being the key word) and that fair use rights are going out the window.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

The in-kernel vs userland distinction has always struck me as quite arbitrary. So in one case you're linked at compile time and in another case you compile them separately and go through system calls. Why should that make one of them a derivative work and the other not?

I agree the kernel vs. userland issue is arbitrary. However, think about all the closed-source software running on Linux, or opensource with other licenses but GPL v2. These are legally possible only because we make the distinction.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

I am not a kernel hacker but I believe you are confusing loadable kernel modules with user space code.
I am pretty sure that kernel modules run at the kernel level and can access all the same structures that a driver compiled into the kernel can.
FUSE file systems run at the same privilege level as a user program does. In theory it is a slower but more robust system. If a FUSE file system crashes you can just restart the filesystem and remount the drive. If a kernel level file system crashes it can cause a kernel panic and bring down the entire system.
So the distinction between user-land and kernel drivers is anything but arbitrary.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

The version of the GPL included with the Linux kernel states at the top:

• NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".

Not sure how far back this clarification really goes, but I think it predates the GPLv2-only one, making it at least six years old.

Re:Why not in the kernel?

How is it Sun's fault that the GPL is incompatible with anything other than itself?

The Right Thing(tm) is to keep the license as it is. It ensures the Solaris code has to be shared (like the GPL), but doesn't pollute source code around it ( GPL - viral clause = CDDL. Same license as firefox, or apache)

Linux wanting to pillage from the project isn't a good enough reason to make it impossible for people to write non-GPL drivers for Solaris

Re:Why not in the kernel?

"Because the CDDL was deliberately made incompatible with the GPL, that's why. Also ask Sun about the needless patents they seem to want to hold on ZFS."

The CDDL is more or less the exact same license Firefox or Apache are under. Sun has a lot of ISV's and IHV's that want to be able to write code ( storage drivers, for example ) that can link against the Solaris kernel without having a team of lawyers analyze to see if it's okay.

It wasn't chosen to be incompatible with the GPL, it was chosen to provide some of the same protections ( share my code... ) without being incompatible with other licenses.

As for the patents, ask IBM how many patents they've got expressed in Linux

"People could still write non-GPL drivers for Solaris regardless. I take that to mean you don't understand the meaning of a GPL compatible license."

You can't link to GPL'ed code with an incompatible license. Hypothetically if EMC or Symantec wanted to write a closed-source driver for this hypothetical GPL Solaris, they'd have to pull an nVidia ( which is a lot of effort for purely non-technical reasons ), or stop supporting the platform.

Would that really be in Sun's best interests, if I(S|H)V's stopped supporting them?

Re:Why not in the kernel?

or they could avoid the hassle of managing a dual licensed project & the inevitable GPL-only fork ( what happens if someone wants to import a driver from linux? that's an instant fork ) by keeping the perfectly-fine license they have right now

relicensing Solaris as GPL is entirely unnecessary and doesn't help Sun or Solaris at all... the only people it helps is Linux, and that shouldn't be the primary concern of OpenSolaris.

If OpenSolaris happens to help Linux, great, but it shouldn't hurt itself & go out of it's way to do it

Re:Why not in the kernel?

There is no license that gives you the right to re-license someone else's copyrighted work.
The GPL doesn't require that everything linked to it be GPL'd, it requires that any changes or derivative works be licensed under a license (any license) that adds no more restrictions than the GPL itself does.

Yet to be included?

The summary makes it sound as if ZFS will ever be included in the kernel. Anything FUSE will never be in the kernel, except the FUSE driver itself. Userspace programs and kernelspace are considered separate for a reason.

Of course, this will all change if both Sun and Torvalds switch to GPL3...

Grub

Booting from a ZFS partition has been confirmed to work

Grub has supported ZFS booting for a while (forget which branch though).

Can't you make a binary blob kernel module?

Can't you just make a binary blob kernel module? I know the GPL zealots hate the idea, but wouldn't this also get around the liscencing problems?

Re:Can't you make a binary blob kernel module?

Can't you just make a binary blob kernel module? That is basically what they are doing. In the case of Nvidia they write the binary blob driver and have an OSS driver to interface between the kernel and the blob. In this case ZFS is using FUSE instead of creating it's own interface code into the kernel.

Never mind ZFS

What I desperately need is a reliable caching filesystem with decent performance.

The $COMPANY network is loaded with Linux workstations and servers, all with their own lotsabyte drives -- and the only things those drives are used for is a tiny system image. Meanwhile the network is getting hammered.

I might not kill to get a several-hundred-gigabyte local network cache -- but don't tempt me.

Re:Never mind ZFS

What I desperately need is a reliable caching filesystem with decent performance.

The $COMPANY network is loaded with Linux workstations and servers, all with their own lotsabyte drives -- and the only things those drives are used for is a tiny system image. Meanwhile the network is getting hammered.

Are you asking for a network based filesystem like AFS [wikipedia.org]? Did I misunderstand your issue?

Cheesy Intro to ZFS Video

If you can suffer the bizarre presentation style Sun have used for this video [google.com], it's quite informative about the benefits of ZFS.

Why the big deal about booting from it?

Really? Stick an old 20gb drive in as your boot drive and boot from whatever you have to to get up and going, load ZFS modules, mount all drives and enjoy. What's so terrible about booting from a different drive / file system? Most mobos now let you hang boatloads of drives of all types on them.
I can't think of any reason why it would be so terrible to boot up from an old 20gb with ext2/ext3 or anything else, then run the rest of your system under whatever. I'm doing that now anyway, I boot from ext2 then everything else is ext3. Doesn't make my performance suffer any that I can tell.

Besides, I suspect that most people that would run ZFS are the type of people that leave their machines up for months at a time. In that case, why the panic attacks over booting issues?

I hope they can find some way to resolve the license issues, I'm excited about ZFS (in concept and theory) and I would love to give it a go. Finally a system that's up with the times.

Lets be realistic

there's hope that performance tweaking could yield a practical elimination of barriers

Hows that memory copy from userspace comming, has it healed up yet?

God damn you slashdot

I almost jumped out of my skin when I read the headline... then they threw in the little tidbit of information that its running through FUSE. I certainly appreciate the work that went into it, but I'm quiet certain FUSE will never catch up to in-kernel filesystems for speed and performance.

Parts of ZFS already GPLv2'd

According to Darren Moffat at SUN, parts of ZFS are already licensed under the GPL v2. Maybe there is still hope for a native solution. Not, of course, that I mind using FUSE.

http://blogs.sun.com/darren/entry/zfs_under_gplv2_ already_exists [sun.com]

Now about that headline, yes I really did say that ZFS code is already available under the GPLv2. I will be completely honest though and make it clear that it isn't all of the ZFS source. It is, sufficient amount to be able to boot an OpenSolaris based system from GRUB, that means that support for mirroring and the checksum and compression support is there but radiz isn't nor are the userland commands. It is possible that this might be enough to get someone started. Still don't believe me check out the updated GRUB source on opensolaris.org, specifically all the files with zfs in their name - every single one of them under the GPLv2 or later.

Re:Parts of ZFS already GPLv2'd

Lets be more specific... ZFS (as a whole) is not GPLv2'd.

From the TFP : Now about that headline, yes I really did say that ZFS code is already available under the GPLv2. I will be completely honest though and make it clear that it isn't all of the ZFS source.

Well that's fantastic... which parts do we get? The ones that make ZFS revolutionary or the ones that make it a rehashed XFS, JFS, Rieser, etc? I don't see how this is any different than any of the bait-n-switch scams that people post to /., digg or other sites. Yes... you can use "part" of the FS but if you want the whole thing you'll have to use Solaris or FUSE (or BSD as others have pointed out).

FUSE defeats the entire purpose. ZFS is meant to run and support a large/huge file store. What admin in their right mind would do that through userspace unless it's solely for backup?

The point is, ZFS is not functionally viable for Linux on the environments for which it was intended.

The headline...

ZFS On Linux - It's Alive!

Shouldn't it be more like:

ZFS On Linux - It's Alive!! IT IS ALIVE!!! MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

The manic laughter is especially important!

Legal question

Why couldn't ZFS be distributed separately in kernel module form and installed by the user? Ubuntu and others integrate mscorefonts, NVidia drivers and others this way. Is the OpenSolaris license so heinous that it's worse than those examples?

I doubt it.

Re:Legal question

Actually, there is nothing wrong with Sun's license. The problem is the GPL, which does not allow CDDL code to to link to it; so the Linux foundation would be the one sending C&D letters to that project, since it would violate the kernel's GPL.

Only if you distribute binaries.

There is nothing that stops me from developing and distributing a version of Sun's ZFS such that it works with a Linux kernel. I can do anything I want with GPL code while I have it, including link it with my CCDL patch (and publish said CCDL code under the CCDL license), as long as when I distribute GPL source or binaries, I abide by the terms of that license.

kernel patch?

Why couldn't this be implemented in the kernel and have the patches to that kernel be hosted in a country which doesn't care too much about licensing?

Re:kernel patch?

Why couldn't this be implemented in the kernel and have the patches to that kernel be hosted in a country which doesn't care too much about licensing?

Why hide? Nothing in the CCDL or GPL licenses prevents you from publishing a CCDL patch to a GPL kernel. Publishing the patched kernel source or binary might run you into some problems, but I don't see anything preventing you from publishing the patch itself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's great!

... but does it run on Plan 9 ?



/me ducks ....

sounds really great and all

But does it run on Windows?

Why is it called "128-bit"?

I have been wondering this for awhile now and I finally have a relevant story to ask it on: Is ZFS 128-bit or not? It claims to be 128-bit, but Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] gives:

• 2^48 - Number of snapshots in any file system (2 × 1014)
• 2^48 - Number of files in any individual file system (2 × 1014)
• 16 EiB (2^64 bytes) - Maximum size of a file system
• 16 EiB - Maximum size of a single file
• 16 EiB - Maximum size of any attribute
• 256 ZiB (2^78 bytes) - Maximum size of any zpool
• 2^56 - Number of attributes of a file (actually constrained to 2^48 for the number of files in a ZFS file system)
• 2^56 - Number of files in a directory (actually constrained to 2^48 for the number of files in a ZFS file system)
• 2^64 - Number of devices in any zpool
• 2^64 - Number of zpools in a system
• 2^64 - Number of file systems in a zpool

What is it about ZFS that leads to it being a 128-bit filesystem?

For... Windows

Don't kill me now - but ZFS looks like something all OS should support. With the great innovations of this file system, it just looks wrong to be confined to any given OS or a set of OS.

Now... NTFS supports some of the stuff (not all) found in ZFS, but it's proprietary, so it doesn't qualify.

ZetaBytes?!

I don't have a ZetaByte Disk, and I'm not going to any time soon, so why do I care about a ZetaByte files system!
Anyone who can afford that much storage can afford to pay a little for a driver built however they like. ... At least for the immediate future.

A selling point for microkernels?

I often like the u-kernel/hybrid kernel idea of running stuff in userspace as opposed to kernel space for security, extensibility, etc. etc. However, I never would have thought licensing issues. However, what if we did start running more parts of Linux in user-space, creating a hybrid kernel, to get around licensing? Don't want to play with GPL? That's fine, just user-space it. Of course, the down-side is some XYZ Linux distro with all sorts of stuff running in user-space because of licensing restrictions. The idea of trading performance for legality (as opposed to a "real" issue like security or reliability) is somewhat unappealing.

After a quick port...

Maybe it is time to rejig FUSE as a kernel module? *ducks*

Interesting

This is an interesting development in light of recent comments [lkml.org] made by Linus about Sun and ZFS in particular, to which Jonathan Schwartz wrote a personal response [sun.com].

Linus, more freedom, less hate

Linux,

Please re-consider follow a more free license rather than a hate-oriented lincense.

Free the code, free the programmers.

Debian Solaris?

What would it take to run the OpenSolaris kernel instead of the Linux kernel in, say, a "Debian" OS? How much of the apps, including the rest of that "Debian Solaris", would have to be revised to use the OpenSolaris kernel? How much revision (to the apps or the Debian bundle) would be required to run OpenSolaris apps on that Debian Solaris?

Noooooo!!!!

Linux is becoming a microkernel. Linus might even get a passing grade.

Linux is GPL and will stay GPL

Folks, don`t fool yourself, Linux is GPL and will stay GPL(v2). Linus is very clear on this, and the man has good reasons, if linux was BSD, it never be what it is today. BSD is everyone for himself and encourages branches not merging. GPL(v2) is the guardian of pure linux evolution. Binary modules should however find their place on linux, but there are drawbacks which are normal

FUSE on ZFS is for compatibility

The FUSE implementations are for compatibility--when someone hands you a ZFS or NTFS formatted disk and you have to be able to read it. FUSE is also useful for remote file systems, where the extra overhead doesn't matter.

For your primary local disk file system, you really need a kernel-based implementation.

Well, the main thing I regret about the ZFS/Linux license incompatibility is that we don't get a chance to see ZFS fall flat on its face like all the other supposedly terribly advanced file systems. But that's a minor regret. In the end, we all know that the next file system for Linux will be ext4, and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Re:It's time for Sun

They also have co-opted gnome

No "co-opting" necessary. Solaris is every bit as much a terget platform for Gnome as Linux is.

Re:Limitations of Linux

People do not complain because they realize that the lack of openness that you greatly exaggerate is only to require GPL'd code to remain GPL'd. GPL is not a license of "openness" -- it is a mechanism by which to counteract copyright (by means of copyleft). It is restrictive in the sense that proprietary software has restrictions, but in the opposite manner. You must keep it free in the same way that you must keep propietary software closed and proprietary by law. My opinion is that this is a good thing for furthering the Free Software movement. Stallman tries to make it clear that the number of people using your code is of no importance, but rather that it remain free.

Re:It's time for Sun

They also have co-opted gnome

By "co-opted" I presume you mean, "Made major contributions to [gnome.org]"?

Re:It's time for Sun

Let's find a way to settle these license issues. ZFS looks to be great innovation, but Sun appears to be playing license games with the express purpose of keeping Linux at bay.

Sorry, it's Linux that's playing the license games, not Sun. One only needs to look at ZFS support in FreeBSD to see that (Speaking of, where's the 'ZFS On FreeBSD!' story?).

The GPL "everything under our license" philosophy is the sole cause of these so-called "license issues". If Linux wants to use Sun's code, why should Sun have to release it under Linux' license?

Re:It's time for Sun

Everyone that has a license is "playing the game". That is required by most copyright laws. The only truly free software is in public domain, the downside to PD is code confiscation that is possible. BSD, GPL, M$ all use a license with restrictions. A restriction limits one or more freedoms. You have to choose which freedom to give up.

Re:It's time for Sun

Linux is a kernel (OS If you don't want to be pedantic) and LINUS (Linus) is a programmer and benevolent dictator.

Confuse them again at your own peril.

Re:It's time for Sun

Wrong,

Sun exists to make money for it's shareholders. If and when it becomes advantageous to their share price to release ZFS then they will do it.

They have already stepped up to the plate and released Star/OpenOffice, Java, and significant portions of Solaris. Each of those software products is a very significant level of magnitude of work. How about a little bit of appreciation for those several person-years worth of work?

To imply that Sun is playing licensing games is disingenuous, at best.

And if you want to call someone out on licensing then how about Linus himself. Why does he own the trademark Linux? Yes, he provides free sub-licensing terms, but those are Linus' terms.

Much as Linus has his limits, Sun has it own limits of what it is willing to give up.

When Linus decides to give up the Linux trademark freely then he can legitimately start complaining about Sun Microsystems.

Re:It's time for Sun

Bill Joy, "probably" brought over a lot of the code from the Berkeley distribution

Seems fair, insofar as he wrote a goodly chunk of it. After all, he was the one who assembled and distributed the release tapes for 1BSD (a large set of patches for Sixth Edition Unix), wrote the ex editor and the C shell for 2BSD, wrote the widely-copied TCP/IP stack for 4.1BSD, and also created NFS and vi (maybe you've heard of them). The impression I get is that he was the de-facto leader of the CSRG until he left to co-found Sun. We started using 4.2BSD in '82, and IIRC all we had to do was get a source license from AT&T (~US$500) for those few modules that CSRG hadn't rewritten. Everything else was (of course) under the BSD license...

Re:yeah horsey

Wow sleep depervation takes it's toll. I could have sworn I posted this on the wow forms.