Dell Linux Details

jon_anderson_ca writes "Dell, through their direct2dell website, has released some details of their soon-to-be-available Linux machines. Among the highlights: Only hardware that works with Linux is offered; open-source drivers are used where possible; binary drivers for Intel wireless cards, etc.; and no support for proprietary media codecs. Seems reasonable, but it's too bad that Click2Run isn't in Ubuntu 7.04 for the sake of those wanting to (legally) play DVDs, use AVI files, etc." The direct2dell site divulges no details on what models will be offered with Linux. For those we turn to linuxquestions.org, where proprietor Jeremy published a scoop last week: "We will be launching a Linux based OS (Ubuntu) on the E520, 1505 and XPS 410 starting next Thursday, 5/24."

But will they be cheaper?

The base Dell 1505 laptop is $699, with some low-end version of Windows Vista preinstalled. If the Linux version costs more than that, Dell isn't serious about this.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

From the Dell website [dell.com],

Michael's Computers

What kind of computer does Michael Dell have? See for yourself. These are the systems and peripherals Michael is using right now. If you want to learn more about these products, or purchase one of your own, visit the links.

At home: Dell Precision M90

Hardware:

* Intel Core 2 Duo T7600 Processor
* 4GB DDR2 667Mhz DRAM
* 17" WXGA+ Widescreen LCD
* 160GB 7200rpm SATA hard drive
* 8X DVD +/- RW optical drive
* NVIDIA Quadro FX 3500 512MB

Software:

* Ubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn
* VMWare Workstation 6 Beta
* OpenOffice.org 2.2
* Automatix2
* Firefox 2.0.0.3
* Evolution Groupware 2.10

It's the first computer listed. I suspect that support for Dell Linux laptops will be moving right along with MD's primary computer running Ubuntu 7.04.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

Seriously, how much can each craplet defray the cost of a new computer?

I don't know what the numbers are, but I would bet there is at least 1,000 installs for every eventual purchase of an app. If you paid $5 to have your app pre-installed, that would be $5,000 dollars before you got your first $79.99 sale.

The actual amount that each app brings down the cost of a laptop has got to be in the cents range.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

And you're basing this conclusion on numbers you've completely made up?

Re:But will they be cheaper?

I don't know what the numbers are, but I would bet there is at least 1,000 installs for every eventual purchase of an app

I think you're overestimating the average user and underestimating the psycology used.

Grandma buys a Dell computer. Grandma uses it happily for three months. After three months, Norton pops up a window with an Alarming Yellow Exclamation Mark telling her that her antivirus protection "Will Expire in 5 Day(s)" and that unless she pays $20, her computer Will Be Vulnerable To Newly Discovered Viruses And Other Security Threats! Now, Grandma's read about computer viruses in the papers. She's never heard of AVG, Avast, or ClamAV.

So Grandma presses the button and pays $20. From her perspective, what else could she do?

No, I don't have any figures either, but I suspect that percentage subscription renewals from preloaded apps are a hell of a lot larger than you think.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

Don't give up hope, maybe McAfee runs under Wine!

Re:But will they be cheaper?

Does anyone else think that offering only 3 models is a little underwhelming?

Only one laptop model? I can tell you it's because Dell's hardware just isn't compatible enough. Sure it's good enough to get by with Linux on it but they're not likely to stump up the costs for development of a laptop that is 100% compatible.

And for everyone who thinks they can just swap out components that don't behave well, I'm afraid I can tell you from person experience it's not that simple. You need to get the factory on board to make it happen and most of the time Linux compatible components aren't cheap. I'll take it all back if Dell start producing a line of laptops and desktops that work 100% with Linux.

My company has taken the time to create 4 specifically Linux OEM laptops, so we know how hard it is. When people say they expect it to be cheaper too it's just getting ridiculous. The hardware choices you need to make for really good compatibility just do cost more. WiFi is the best example, once you've changed from a generic card to an Intel card you've lost the saving you make by not paying a Windows Licence. And that's before you even have to start worrying about the right Intel chip! I can't wait to see these laptops, turn on the WiFi, 3D desktop and put it into suspend mode. Then when it wakes up we'll see how compatible these things really are.

I commend Dell for trying, but I think before everyone gets too excited we need to wait and see how much effort they actually put in.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

I would think we could look at their current Linux supported offerings, the PowerEdge line, to get an idea.

Base price is no OS.
+ $261 for RHEL5 w/ 1 year support
+ $785 for RHEL5 w/ 3 year support
+ $105 for Suse 10 EL w/ 1 year support
+ $262 for Suse 10 EL w/ 3 year support
+ $599 for Windows Server 2003 Standard
+ $974 for Windows 2003 SBS

This seems pretty in-line with what the pricing was when the company I work for bought a Linux compatible Optiplex last year.

With that in mind, I would imagine that the Ubuntu desktops will also be less expensive than the same desktop with Windows on it.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

The difference is that the PowerEdge line is servers. You can't install crapware on a server. Any admin (I would hope) would promptly wipe the drive anyway and start over from scratch if you included anything close to crapware (or even if you didn't, just because they wanted to do everything from scratch). You can't compare the pricing on their servers to the pricing on their desktop machines, because they serve entirely different purposes, and entirely different markets.

Re:But will they be cheaper?

The difference is that the PowerEdge line is servers. You can't install crapware on a server.

Sure you can. Dell offers Windows pre-installed!

Re:But will they be cheaper?

I'm suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder on the idea that the Linux laptop should be cheaper. On one hand it is financially cheaper for Dell to offer the machines without Windows. On the other hand Dell is probably offering more of a value to most people by vetting the hardware against the software before delivery.

Some of us have had the joy of getting wireless or sound working over the course of a week. Heaven help anyone trying to get power management on a laptop working well. I'm typing this on a 30 day old Acer and what power management I have working is a gross and inelegant hack. I jumped on ideastorm like a couple of other people did and said my peace. Having done that I intend to sell this laptop on craigslist, and buy a Dell preloaded with Feisty and I will pay the difference if I need to. I have the sneaking suspicion that most of the posts on ideastorm are "me too" posts or kids wanting to feel 1337. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that most of the posters are willing to put their money where their mouth is. I believe that having Dell add the value of making a good laptop with a great (and hardware vetted) OS will be worth what they ask. I feel a little naive for suggesting that Linux folks should trust Dell but Dell just might actually price their laptop fairly and I for one will pay for easy Feisty goodness. Look at System76, they sell Ubuntu preloaded and I can promise that they will never be the lower cost option.

Support NIGHTMARE

Customer: Hi, I want to watch erm, a video, which I downloaded.
Dell (best read with Apu's accent): I see that you are having a Dell Linux computer.
Customer: Yes.
Dell: What I can do for you sir is to tell you that you cannot watch a WMV file.
Customer: Um, but my kid sent it to me from HIS computer.
Dell: Please hold.
Customer: *fume*
(5 mins later)
Dell: Sir, I want you to take the system recovery disk and reinstall your operating system software.
Customer: Why?
Dell: Please hold.
Customer calls friend/child/etc on the other phone: Hey do you have a Windows Vista CD I can borrow?
(1 min later)
Customer: Great thanks.
*click*
Dell: Sir? Sir?

Re:Support DREAM

Heh, you must not use Ubuntu 7.04.

Here's how it would actually work...

Customer gets WMV file from his kid.
Customer double-clicks WMV file, or right-clicks and selects "Open with Movie Player"
Ubuntu: This file requires additional codecs to play, would you like me to install them?
Customer: Yes please
(wait 1 minute)
Ubuntu: All done, enjoy your movie!
Customer happily watches their WMV.

The next day, Customer sends his Windows kid some awesome Theora file...

Re:Support DREAM

Theora is a patent-free, royalty-free open-source video codec. It's the video counterpart to the Vorbis audio codec and competitor to MPEG4 and WMV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora [wikipedia.org]
http://xiph.org/ [xiph.org]

Is it going to be completely Ubuntu?

Is Dell going to have their own repository? If people can get software from every repository it is possible that they will get something that doesn't work with the hardware. If Dell had its own repository then they would gain the same advantage that Apple has; the software would be guaranteed to work with the hardware. That would save them a bunch in support. That could make Linux much more attractive to Dell.

Re:Is it going to be completely Ubuntu?

They currently have a yum repository: http://linux.dell.com/repo/software/ [dell.com] I can only imagine they would have a debian based repository as well.

Re:Is it going to be completely Ubuntu?

Ubuntu is updated every 6 months, and Dell has chosen the more cutting-edge 7.04 version over 6.06 for which Canonical had promised support for 3 years on the desktop and 5 years on the server. With Windows, Dell has been accustomed to supporting a relatively stagnant Windows kernel. To commit to supporting a Linux kernel that evolves every dozen weeks or so, and a software distro that evolves every 6 months will require active participation on Dell's part -- regular contributions to testing (n+1) and participation on the Ubuntu launchpad.net site. If Dell is going to contribute at that level it might as well simply become another full ubuntu mirror. Exciting prospects indeed.

Proprietary Codecs?

Which proprietary codecs aren't specifically supported? There's a version of LinDVD you can get for Mandriva that AFIAK is completely legal. What about talking with apple and getting some Quicktime codecs. What about other Codecs like MP3 that aren't included in some distros, yet are included in others? Either way, I don't really think it will be a bad thing. Anybody ordering a Linux machine will know how to get their own codecs, or will know someone who does (this will be the person telling them to get the computer). I don't see any noticeable percentage of people buying a linux machine who won't be at the direction of somebody who linux-knowledgable. However, I think that if they don't include things like MP3 playing capability then it's a garauteed failure for all such users, no matter the percentage.

Re:Proprietary Codecs?

There's a couple options for you.

1) Install a 32 bit browser, along with a bunch of 32 bit libraries. Downside is this takes up extra disk space for the 32 bit libraries, and your browser is only 32 bit. Upside is the rest of your computer is 64 bit, and I don't really think there's a real need to have your browser running in 64 bit.

2) Wine at Adobe until they release 64 bit flash for linux. I think this will be a while, considering they completely skipped version 8 for Linux, and I'm pretty sure version 9 is still in beta.

Re:Proprietary Codecs?

2) Wine at Adobe until they release 64 bit flash for linux. I think this will be a while, considering they completely skipped version 8 for Linux, and I'm pretty sure version 9 is still in beta.

First a slight correction: Adobe flash v9 came out of beta in January this year.
Then an addition of a third available option:

3) You can install the Netscape plugin wrapper http://www.gibix.net/projects/nspluginwrapper/ [gibix.net] which allows you to use 32-bit plugins on a 64-bit browser. It works with Netscape and Mozilla browsers.

Re:Proprietary Codecs?

YouTube movies are in flv, which is basically a bastardised MPEG format. You don't need Flash player. There's a GreaseMonkey script which will allow you to watch them using mplayer. FLV isn't even a proprietary codec (ffmpeg knows about it. In fact, the whole toolchain for converting your camera's AVI files into something you can host on a website is entirely Open Source. Only the player is proprietary, and the GNASH developers are working on that. I'm currently working on a site with embedded video clips, and I will make them accessible to GNU/Linux users without Flash player.)

I'll grant you, it's not obvious -- and that's not entirely unrelated to many people having vested interests in keeping alternatives to what they sell non-obvious. When was the last time you saw a site with PDFs mention that you could use anything other than Adobe Reader to view them? (Ones designed by me with on-the-fly PDF-munging technology [again, the toolchain to do this is 100% i-tal] and smart links to kpdf, xpdf, evince or foxit reader depending on your browser and OS don't count.)

The problem begins and ends with closed-source, proprietary software. Always has, always will. Short of passing a law against caged software (which I don't believe is impossible for some small country sometime in the near future) the best thing you can do is support the Free Software movement. Use Free Software, suggest improvements (don't just say "this sucks", say "this would be better if ....."), donate money, time or hardware to an existing project, start a new project. If you want to put the "and other" into "non-violent and other direct action", there are quite a few things you can do which won't do any harm to life or tangible property, just bogus "intellectual property".

Re:Proprietary Codecs?

I just installed Debian Etch on my new Thinkpad. Debian is one of the most free distros around.
mp3 mpg avi divix all worked out of the box. I had to install [blogspot.com] 1 package and DVD is now working.

Latitudes...

Too bad the Latitudes don't seem to be offered- the inspirons are craptacular- I would never get one of those, but I would get a Latitude.

But can it run....

Erm, nevermind.

restricted extras

Seems reasonable, but it's too bad that Click2Run isn't in Ubuntu 7.04 for the sake of those wanting to (legally) play DVDs, use AVI files, etc."

Because start menu -> Add/remove programs -> Ticking 'ubuntu restricted extras' to get proprietary codecs, flash, java etc. is so much harder than 'Click2Run'.

Why not make an "Uncrippled for non-US" edition?

Are there any "European Linux" distros that don't kowtow to the U.S. DMCA rule, and include libdvdcss by default?

It seems like all the major distros basically play by the U.S. rules, but with the seeming increasing popularity of Linux in Europe, I'd think that the time would be right for somebody to just stop following idiotic U.S. regulations and make a distro that's not hampered by anti-circumvention ... I mean, why not have "Crippled for U.S." and "Un-Crippled" mirrors, and just ship the same distro with a different /etc/apt/sources.list file depending on whether it's the "US ISO" or the "International ISO"? (And, duh, everyone except for corporate users in the U.S. would probably just download the European version, but the point would be that in order to get the 'good stuff,' you'd have to shamefully pretend to live in a country that doesn't suck so bad at IP laws.)

It would be sorta like the 40-bit encryption restrictions in the early 90s, only in reverse. We need to make it screamingly obvious to politicians in the U.S., that America is losing on something that the rest of the world is doing without us, because of our stupid rules.

I don't normally encourage obnoxious European holier-than-thou-ism, but this is one case where it could be put to useful effect.

Re:Why not make an "Uncrippled for non-US" edition

Yes. At least in Britain and Europe, if the DVD is your property, then you are legally entitled to watch the film recorded upon it. Otherwise, the store that sold it to you was breaking the law -- goods sold to a consumer must be fit for their rightful purpose. The fact that you are circumventing encryption is irrelevant in this case, since you are (by sole virtue of ownership of the disc) the intended recipient of the encrypted communication and therefore have authorisation from the sender of the encrypted message (the film company) to view it.

Enforcement of the EUCD in such a way as to protect the interests of established manufacturers would violate pre-existing European laws against anti-competitive behaviour.

Hmmm, not good

If Dell isn't going to be supplying support for proprietary media codecs (regardless of how easy it is to add them yourself), then this suggests to me Dell wasn't prepared to pay licensing costs to make this happen. I hope they provide instructions, or perhaps a script that runs the first time you boot into your Linux box that can auto-install these codecs, otherwise this will piss off a lot of people.

Re:Hmmm, not good

I hope they provide instructions, or perhaps a script that runs the first time you boot into your Linux box that can auto-install these codecs, otherwise this will piss off a lot of people.

Supposedly they'll be shipping 7.04 (Feisty Fawn) which has a codec wizard [ubuntu.com]

Lose, Lose

I'm sick of reading all these comments about how horrible it is that Dell isn't going to include the proprietary codecs to play DVDs or mp3. It's not completely legal to do so now without paying a license fee. And if Dell did pay a licensing fee to include, people would be complaining about why it costs just as much as Windows does. And besides, it is VERY easy to look up instructions on how to add the capability to play those codecs online, and most people that care enough to specifically order a Linux Dell, are already going to know how to do this.

Defective by design?

That tag seems to apply here..
No DVD support, no proprietary codecs? Good grief. I would have hoped Dell would have at least paid the $2 or so for the licensing fees for this stuff!

If this is any indication, it doesn't look like pre-installing Linux will be the panecea some think it will be to beat Windows on the desktop..

97 billion USD can buy a big chunk of the MPAA

All the gold in Ft Knox would not be enough to get a license from the DVDCCA

The bullion depository at Fort Knox [wikipedia.org] holds 147 million troy ounces of gold. At 660 USD per ounce, that makes 97 billion USD. This is more than enough to buy a controlling interest in The Walt Disney Company, News Corporation, and Viacom Inc., and spin out their film divisions.

Models listed

As a Dell employee I can say the models listed in the summary were pulled directly from a Dell internal email. I would imagine that email was sent around to many people outside the company and that is where the list comes from. As far as I know those are the accurate models that will be offered first.

Sounds like they're doing it right

I've never liked Dell, but they seem to be doing it right.

* The default software from the Ubuntu media will be installed
* hardware options thoroughly tested by the Linux team
* restricted drivers where there is no equivalent open-source driver.
* wiki page that gives technical details
* recommend Linux users buy Dell printers that have PostScript engines in them.
* We are evaluating options for providing (mp3/wma/etc codecs) this support in the future.

They're not rolling their own distro (hello Oracle), they're checking out the hardware focusing on GPL drivers wherever possible, documenting via wiki, recommending Postscript supported printers, and they aren't ruling out the *legal* mp3 support down the road. They seem to just be saying "We are trying to figure something out with this mp3 royalty mess". Not to mention, they *must* be pissing off Microsoft big-time. I bet Balmer has chairs tatooed with the Dell execs names on them, just waiting for the right time. That's not like Dell either, historically. They are usually just another little m$ bitch when Bill cracks the whip. Maybe this is a new era for Dell.

Re:Sounds like they're doing it right

Maybe they saw how Apple is making a metric assload of money selling a UNIX derivative, closely tied to decent hardware, and want a piece of it?

It's pretty far out there, but what if Dell are positioning themselves as an Apple for Linux - good hardware, guaranteed compatibility, support for installed packages, etc. I know a lot more people would consider Linux on the desktop/laptop if a name-brand, respected company like Dell were offering it.

Re:Sounds like they're doing it right

Even better, they're going to push hardware vendors to write Linux drivers:

For hardware options not offered with this release, we are working with the vendors of those devices to improve the maturity and stability of their associated Linux drivers. While this may not happen overnight, we do expect to have a broader range of hardware support with Linux over time.

Hardware compatibility first...

As long as every bit of the hardware is supported, there should not be any problems.

From TFA,

We use partial open-source or closed source ("restricted" in Ubuntu terms) drivers where there is no equivalent open-source driver. This includes Intel wireless cards and Conexant modems.

I hope that the "restricted" drivers work along the lines of the nvidia driver where the source of the kernel module would be available which would provide an interface to the binary driver. That way, users would be free install a different distro/kernel of their choice. A purely binary driver that would only work with the specific kernel version shipped by Dell might not be very helpful.

BTW, in India, Dell is offering laptops with the option of having no OS pre-installed. My colleague got one a few months back and saved about Rs. 3,000 (about 75 US$)

This Thing Will Fail

I was quite enthusiastic about this, especially since I am an Ubuntu user. But without MP3 and DVD support out of the box people aren't going to bite. Dell and Canonical had better get their shit together soon if they want this to work.

No complaints

I'm writing this on Ubuntu running on a Dell 1705...absolutely out of the box performance.

If your worried about drivers, things costing too much etc, what you, as an open source user should do is contribute! Contribute to the cause and the price will improve, the drivers will improve, and then you'll be able to complain about other things.

Damn, no WUXGA laptop

Well if this is the lineup ("We will be launching a Linux based OS (Ubuntu) on the E520, 1505 and XPS 410 starting next Thursday, 5/24." from Jeremy's Blog), I guess I have to wait longer. I'm only interested in WUXGA - the 15.4" Latitude D830 would have been nice, but I'd have considered the E1705 too. If I have to buy an unsupported model and install Linux myself, there is less incentive to pick Dell in the first place.

I seconded ideas on ideastorm that suggested Dell get rid of this stupid division between Latitude and Inspiron, but who knows if that will ever happen. Just a single line of well built laptops in a few different screen sizes is all we need (it works for Apple and if Dell wants to entire the retail market seriously, it would help to have a reduced model line).

Dara

Correction

"for the sake of those wanting to (legally) play DVDs, use AVI files, etc.""

I think that line can be misunderstanding. It is not illegal for you under Linux to play DVD's or use AVI, its only illegal to distribute their codecs without a license to do so and we all know licenses cost money. If Ubuntu had to pay for the license then it would probably have to charge for a binary copy of Ubuntu. This is where Linspire comes in with click and run, they paid for the license and so they can give you the CD with the codecs on them.

Although its legal for you to download the codec yourself for your own use. You just cant go making a product and putting their codec on it without a license even if the product is free.

They called it Click'N'Run last time I checked it

but it's too bad that Click2Run isn't in Ubuntu 7.04
for the sake of those wanting to (legally) play DVDs, use AVI
files, etc.

They called it Click'N'Run last time I checked it. It was renamed?
Doubt it...

FYI there is already a nice frontend for adding software - it is
easy and straightforward to add proprietary codecs/drivers and
opensource software. It has a popularity based star-rating as well
as a short package description. One can search for a name match etc.
So I havn't noticed the lack of C'N'R feature. Ubuntu 7.04 is a good
choice for a desktop OS imo.

How many here will buy?

Anyone here planning on picking up one of the linux pre-installed machines when they go on sale? I'm legitimately curious.

Really...

I know that this does not apply to all of the threads in here, but I need to get something out.

Is there anything that any hardware or software vendor can do that will make the /. community happy? This isn't meant as flamebait or a troll, it is a genuine questions. Dell is taking a step in the right direction by offering Linux on select systems, and some of you seem to be taking this as a personal afront because Dell doesn't cater to all of your whims. This is the start of them offering Linux publically on their systems. It will take some time for Dell to get everything worked out. Please, if you want Dell to continue to offer Linux on their systems, don't criticize them for the initial offering, support them. Go onto the Direct2Dell site and let them know what you would like in future releases. Contribute to the process, don't complain when something that you never asked for isn't included.

Noone gets it right the first time, and if they did, we would still be using the alpha of Ubuntu.

While I agree:

That DVD playing functionality should be included "out of box", I don't think it's much more difficult than opening synaptic, typing your password, and installing VLC. I agree it should be included in the distribution by default, but it's one of the only things an end user will need that ISN'T pre-included.

1. Open Office, a full office suite.
2. The Gimp, a photoshop clone.
3. Gaim (now Pidgin), instant messaging for every client, msn, aim, icq, yahoo, soon also MySpace)
4. Firefox, arguably the best browser in the market.
5. Evolution, not as good as Thunderbird, but certainly safer virus wise than Outlook.
6. Tomboy Notes, Rhythmbox, literally a laundry list of other great software that end users might want....

I mean, true, having a really good game installed would be nice, but you CAN get Urban Terror for free, and I like it quite a bit more than any version of Counterstrike.

I think compared to the huge list of software I need to buy and then install for windows, the Ubuntu process is much easier and cheaper already!

rhY

Yeah, but will it run...

Yeah, but will it run Windows?
...
...wait wait, ok ok, just... please don't hurt me!

That all seems reasonable...

Dell aren't really selling these for the Linux hobbyist market, but are selling them as a proof of concept for the soho/business user who is looking for alternatives to Windows. Hopefully the USP will be that said user will be able to call a support line if something goes wrong and someone will be able to give answers that will resolve a problem. 7.04 does seem to be a mistake when 6.06 is the distribution with long term support but without screwing Synaptic down it would be hard for a casual desktop user not to upgrade - LTS is probably more useful for servers in a production environment. Otherwise the idea seems solid and support for specific machines and components will make the support desk's life easier, until the wireless components are changed from Intel to Broadcom to save a bit of money. Hmm. I would also be prepared to bet that the majority of service calls will be about trying to get printing to work with some 20 year old Applewriter, or worse still, a cheap GDI colour laser (note to Dell's Linux support team: foomatic is your friend).

Success Criteria

Posting anonymously because I'm a Dell employee who wants to see this succeed but am not 'authorized' to speak for Dell.

Dell needs to sell 20,000 of these systems to consider this pilot a success. If we sell less than this, don't expect much in the way of continued effort. This is a royal pain to get rolling as fast as we are - especially since a huge majority of our tech support know windows only.

Oh, and you only have a couple of months before the systems we're shipping these on go end of life. They are mature systems, with good technical information. But in order to be responsive to the Ideastorm ask as quickly as possible - we decided to go with systems that were about to be EOL rather than waiting for the next hardware refresh.

The people that said they would wait to buy a box until Dell offered Linux are about to get your chance - I *really* hope you follow through on that promise.

Because the article didn't have 'em...

Here are some URLs for the Dell models listed:

Dimension E520 Desktop [dell.com] - $370+

Inspiron E1505 Laptop [dell.com] - $700+

XPS 410 Desktop [dell.com] - $900+

I'm in the market for a new laptop, but unfortunately the E1505 is too large and heavy for my needs -- the base weight is 6.18lbs! Dell should really consider adding something smaller and lighter to the ubuntu-supported mix. How about the Latitude D420 [dell.com] ?

Non-US ?

Will they be available outside the US ? Quite simply, I'm not going to buy a laptop with an American keyboard layout. However, assuming the price is fair and they sell in my country I will probably get one.

Who cares?

Nobody will buy them anyway. It's just a move to get support from the geeks.

Re:Binary drivers for Intel Wireless cards? Why?

So, tell me exactly what about the firmware for the intel wlan cards you were planning to modify? The driver is where you would implement frame grabbing or packet injection so tell me exactly what you would accomplish with the firmware source....

I agree that its a good goal to have things open source but in areas that it doesn't matter, you are wasting your time and a lot of peoples effort.