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Miguel Plans Silverlight on Mono & Linux by Years End
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Thu May 03, 2007 04:41 PM
from the how-does-miguel-get-to-be-a-vp dept.
from the how-does-miguel-get-to-be-a-vp dept.
El Lobo writes "The Mono open-source project will create a Linux version of Silverlight by the end of year, said Miguel de Icaza, a Novell vice president and head of Mono. Asked about plans for Linux, Microsoft executives have been non-committal, saying that it will depend on demand. But de Icaza, who is attending Mix, was able to commit without hesitating."
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Miguel Plans Silverlight on Mono & Linux by Years End
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ItsATrap! (Score:4, Interesting)
Tag: itsatrap
we'll see (Score:2, Funny)
(Last Journal: Saturday August 25, @03:49PM)
It's easy to commit... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Wednesday October 16 2002, @01:31AM)
ha! (Score:1)
well, THAT'S one example for redundancy. *scnr*
Steve will have words with Ron first (Score:1)
And Ron (Novells ceo) will do the right thing and cancel it
Now we only need a name (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://tirania.org/blog)
And I was thinking Silver-light in another language, bonus points if the script is good looking.
For instance, in Arabic it would be fad-da daw' ( ) which looks cool on a large font(thanks to Hisham Bardam for the translation) although it does not roll easily. We might need some shortening.
Miguel.
Re:Now we only need a name (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now we only need a name (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now we only need a name (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://cgranade.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Friday December 05 2003, @12:52AM)
PS We all hate gnome, too. If we wanted the worst of mac combined with the worst of windows we'd just run vista!
I would rather see... (Score:2)
It can be done!
Re:I would rather see... (Score:5, Funny)
Mono.. (Score:3, Funny)
(http://www.everybodysucksbutme.com/)
Re:Mono.. (Score:5, Funny)
As my old history teacher used to say... (Score:2)
It is not a mistake that Microsoft's strategy starts with "embrace".
Seriously, Miguel, give up (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.parallelrealities.co.uk/)
There are plenty of Linux apps out there that could do with your skills and that don't infringe on Microsoft's patents. Why not write a program that'll do something with that number that everyone's been talking about recently. I can't remember what it is, but I'll find it in a moment...
Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (Score:4, Informative)
(http://tirania.org/blog)
Well, because I believe that Siverlight will become an important component in future applications. The majority of people will probably be happy to spice up their web applications with a little silverlight as it will run on Windows and MacOS.
But if there is no Silverlight for Linux, we will be prevented from getting access to content and applications that will be available.
So we got a couple of strategies dealing with this:
(a) the ostrich strategy also known as the "i-cant-hear-you" strategy: pretend that Silverlight does not exist and hope that by ignoring it, it will go away and vanish.
(b) Hope that nobody adopts it. I seriously doubt that Silverlight will not be adopted, in particular the CLR version shows a lot of promise.
(c) Be proactive and implement it ourselves: we got most of the hard bits of the technology already (a CLR, a JIT, the GC, the core class libraries, even up to some parts of LINQ).
Considering that we are very familiar with the technology, we can do something along the lines of (c). You can feel free to pursue avenues (a) and (b).
In fact, you can ignore Mono completely, nobody is forcing you to use it; Nobody is asking you to contribute to the effort, and nobody is in any position to force you to stop using whatever other technology happens to be your favorite one.
I loved the Silverlight announcement, it is a way of bringing my favorite platform to the web (the CLR and now the DLR) and it seems like a natural fit and extension to what Mono does.
And why exactly would I care about your pet project?
Not buying it (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft is not unbeatable. They have failed at everything they've tried over the last 5 years, whether it's Vista, IE7 or Zune. Making the stupid assumption that Silverlight is the next greatest thing is why people have lost respect for you.
Re:Not buying it (Score:5, Informative)
(http://tirania.org/blog)
People have created tons of fantastic development platforms, are you kidding me?
I can name a few:
* The whole python universe.
* The Javascript/Ajax revolution in all of its forms and shapes.
* Smalltalk/Squeak
* Java/Swing
* Java/SWT and the Eclipse platform
* Ruby on Rails
* Pylons/Dojo/TurboGears
* Flash
Aa for jumping into Silverlight, the explanation is very simple: it has a high resonance with what we do: it is an incremental upgrade to the Mono platform.
We work on Mono, and on many technologies based on the CLR (both for
Brother, am sorry I have shattered your childhood dreams. You are going to find yourself a new role model to fight the system and stick it to the man [wikipedia.org].
If you think that
From reading this dialog, I get the feeling that fear and hatred have overtaken you. I can appreciate Silverlight and at the same time dislike Windows, I know that this might cause a bit of cognitive dissonance, but my evaluation of technology is not binary. I think Silverlight is a very nice use of the CLR, resonates with our work, and is relatively simple to implement.
My recommendation: "The Art of Possibility" from Benjamin Zander, one of my favorite books. Either that, or going on meds.
Miguel.
Re:Not buying it (Score:4, Insightful)
Any respect I had for you as a software developer is gone. Good luck though, sounds like you will need it.
Legal options (Score:5, Insightful)
Option E (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.scarydevil.com/~peter/ | Last Journal: Monday September 26 2005, @06:53PM)
And some of us don't want there to be lots of content produced with Silverlight. It's bad enough that so much of the content on the web is tied up in little obfuscated applets in Java and Flash as it is. Seriously, there's pretty much only three things these are used for: advertising, low-quality DRM, and toys and games. Exceptions like the Java applets at Greg Egan's site are far and few between, and Google has shown us with Maps and Gmail that you don't *need* these plugins to produce rich content.
Thank goodness Microsoft's first try failed, and we don't have ActiveX and its security problems on Mac and Linux.
We don't need a better Silverlight or a better Flash. We need better tools inside the framework that we already have.
Re:Option D (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, you mean this? [mono-project.com] GTK+ is a very good toolkit (the best one, as far as I'm concerned). And GTK is available on Mono. I used it, it's good - VERY good, very easy to use. As far as I'm concerned, this is much, much better than Windows.Forms.
Look around you. There are tons of high-quality non-MS open source projects that run on Mono. You seem to be thinking that copying the Microsoft runtime library is all that Mono does. That's far from the truth.
C# is a good language. I don't care whether MS made it or the Martians - it's good, there is an open source implementation, there are open source libraries, so I will use it.
Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you left out:
(d) come up with something better that can be made cross-platform from the get-go that gives people a compelling reason to use it instead of Silverlight, rather than permanently following along a few steps behind Microsoft.
Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (Score:5, Insightful)
Making poor imitations of crappy ideas isn't clear indication of talent; quite the opposite, in fact.
You forgot "want" before "believe", and we all know the result of introducing yet another nonstandard web extension is. I mean, it's worked so well for Microsoft in the past: proprietary JavaScript extensions, HTML extensions, ActiveX. It's just brought the web together into a nice, unified platform, so you never have to worry about how every different browser handles your website. Oh wait, no it hasn't: just the opposite.
How about: d) Proactively discourage its use; build, distribute, and support and alternative framework that is not under the control of a corporation known for breaking compatibility regularly to discourage competition. Get this into Firefox and build an IE plugin to support it.
I think you just asked the question that so many others are asking about Mono.
Silverlight is a new spin on ActiveX (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.scarydevil.com/~peter/ | Last Journal: Monday September 26 2005, @06:53PM)
We know you love the CLR... unfortunately, it's not an open system like the UNIX programming environment and so it's not really well liked in the open source world. We're not happy with the limitations of the Windows programming environment, and we find the large and complex APIs beloved of the Windows developers a throwback to the old pre-UNIX mainframe era, so we expect Silverlight to be the same kind of Windows wart on the side of UNIX. If we're mistaken, if Mono can be integrated well into the UNIX world, we'd love to see you prove us wrong by doing it.
But you don't seem to like the UNIX environment, so I guess you won't be doing anything along those lines...
Well, because I believe that Siverlight will become an important component in future applications. The majority of people will probably be happy to spice up their web applications with a little silverlight as it will run on Windows and MacOS.
ActiveX has failed to make Dot-NET take off in the web application world. Why do you think that Silverlight will do any better?
That's nice, Miguel (Score:4, Insightful)
Call us again in a few years when the patents (whichever they are) have expired. Say, about 2026.
Re:That's nice, Miguel (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.hubick.com/)
I mean, with Mono they at least tried to pretend like they understood the patent situation surrounding the technology. But with this Silverlight stuff just being announced, there is no way you could have done any type of audit to know what you are getting yourself into!
What a waste of time... (Score:1)
Silverfish should have been a clue. (Score:2, Funny)
When MS designed this thing they could have used mono as a base. That way they would have had an open source, cross platform base from the start. They could have distributed your (and your contributors) work with windows update and gotten mono on every windows desktop.
They didn't. They instead chose to pull the rug out from under you by open sourcing their own CLR (to some extent) and making it cross platform (to some extent).
They shit on you. Please don't just sit there with a grin on your face and take it. You are much too bright and hard working and don't deserve this kind of treatment.
Re:Silverfish should have been a clue. (Score:4, Informative)
(http://tirania.org/blog)
They did not open source their CLR, you are confused.
They open sourced a chunk of code that we do not have, the DLR and as I said on my blog post, we will be shipping the DLR together with IronPython and NRuby (when it becomes
Thats great! (Score:2)
(http://cpuz.net/ | Last Journal: Friday April 08 2005, @09:29AM)
ffs (Score:2, Insightful)
(http://www.footballfans.tv/)
firstly i wish to say "thank you" to the mono team! yee are doing a great job!
secondly what the f*** is wrong with you
while yee are arguing which distro has the longest
keep reaching fot that rainbow! keep playing catchup to microsoft
end rant.
Re:ffs (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://markheimonen.blogspot.com/)
Silverlight is not just a reimplementation of Flash. Coding in
Re:ffs (Score:4, Insightful)
See this is classic 'geek' delusion. It assumes that just because something a technology is easy to program with that's its going to take over the world. Lets look at the facts:
- From the perspective of content creators, Adobe is the most loved (Photoshop/Flash/Dreamweaver) and Microsoft is the most hated (FrontPage/IE).
- Flash is on 97% of machines (500 million+ users), Silverlight is on 0% (5+ users) of machines.
- Flash requires nothing to install or download, Silverlight requires a 4MB+ download and install. It still remains to be seen whether non-admin users have access to install IE/Firefox plugins under Vista.
- A large percentage of content creators use Macs which Visual Studio/.Net is not available for.
- Flash programmers are cheaper to hire than
.Net ones.
- Flash is proven on existing web sites (YouTube), Silverlight is unproven.
- Flash is on version 9, Silverlight is on version 1. That's a lot of bugs/features that have already been addressed.
- Flash is based on Javascript which is more common amongst web developers than C#.
So as you can see MS is once again creating new, proprietary technologies that the world doesn't need.Re:ffs (Score:5, Informative)
(http://tirania.org/blog)
When was the last time that you used the "UNIX programming environment" in your web browser? Last I checked, you had to write in a subset that isoaltes you from the operating system and only allowed DOM access and Javascript.
Flash, the other major tool for RIAs, does not give you access to *any* Unix facilities.
You seem to be confused as to what Silverlight is.
One of the nice things about Silverlight (as I pointed out in a blog entry a few weeks ago) is that you can actually generate Silverlight content with any Unix tool you want.
You can easily generate it with PHP:
header ("Content-Type: application/xaml");
print "
";
Or you can generate it with shell, perl, python or assembly language.
The server side is probably as Unixy as anything else can get.
*sigh* (Score:3, Insightful)
Get A Grip (Score:5, Insightful)
what's with this guy? (Score:3, Funny)
One for the negative nancies (Score:5, Informative)
* Fiducial (http://fiducial.biz): Their new site uses Mono and ASP.NET.
* Wikipedia (http://wikipedia.org): WikiPedia uses Mono for its search facilities. The indexing and the actual searching is done by Mono-based applications.
* GovTrack.Us (http://www.govtrack.us/)
* GotMono.Net (http://www.gotmono.net)
* Yakugo.com (http://www.yakugo.com) is an AJAX-based English-Japanese dictionary site that uses Mono.
* [1] (http://www.saileventschedule.de) A web-based schedule for sailing events like racing and training.
More can be found at:
http://www.mono-project.com/Companies_Using_Mono#
Oh Shut It You Nancies (Score:2, Insightful)
Some of you seem to be asking for the closing of Unix and our Unix-Like things without a single thought to what others are doing. No, we do not have the answer to everything. No, Linux does not do everything we need. No, Java is not the only way we should have to implement enterprise-ready client-server applications.
We should have more. We should be able to bring expert C# developers and have them feel comfortable on Linux. We should be able to access everything that anyone puts on the web. Yes, Macromedia and Microsoft do stupid, evil things like leverage their market grips and lawyer departments to feed us this or that other tech that could be better implemented.
But we work arround that. We worked arround DVD encryption. We worked arround HD-DVD encription and we WILL work arround BlueRay encription. We worked arround proprietary audio formats and we worked arround proprietary video formats and yet, you guys complain that miguel wants to work arround yet another tech (and in this case its a quite well architected one) that will lock us out of content.
Why didnt you rant against the mplayer guys that allow you to see your pron. Ah, i see, silverlight is not pr0n worthy. Didnt we used to perceive the same kind of risk (patents and such) for the revenging that the samba team needed to do? Why didnt you rant then. Ah, I see, you probably did.
I dont like the ms-novell deal more than any of you, but i dont think miguel has in mind having a closed source version of what he is proposing to do. If the other distros do not feel comfortable including it because of that deal, then they wont (like RH, that currently has no offer for mono). But the software itself is opensource and you will be able to download it and access your content.
Isnt that what this is all about, really? That we can work arround the stupid walls MS and others try to put on us?
Youve all turned into a bunch of whyning preppie girls. Hell, it wont even be you implementing it, if you dont want to. I say FSCK microsoft and let them come if they wanna sue all of us when we use our mono-based silverlight thingie on our ubuntu or fedora.
They wont come against novell, but I dont hink novell would stop miguel from doing this in a good (as in MPL or GPL) free software license --and this I say because a non-FOSS implementation would force me to the other side... that is, with the wyining preppie girls.
go migel go (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Thursday May 31, @06:32PM)
Windows Media all over again (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.underground.net/)
Lately you can watch snippets of videos on MSNBC because they are "beta testing" FLASH to show their videos ONLY because of the success of YouTube. You still cannot watch live events on macs though.
The point of all this is that Microsoft is not making Silverlight because they care about the community. They are making it so that they can stranglehold all of the non windows users at some point down the road Once we all get sucked in and a bunch of sites are made using Slverlight.. Microsoft will then come out with a new feature that will ONLY work on Windows.. and then we will all be sorry again.
I am a web developer who has to make 4 different versions of each site because of all the "bugs" in IE.
I would be an idiot to build a site using Silverlight.. because we all know exactly what's going to happen with that format down the road.
I would rather (Score:1)
You'll need a ten foot pole... (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://telebody.com | Last Journal: Tuesday July 30 2002, @07:28AM)
But they aren't. And I don't know if I trust someone who is both indeminified against lawsuits from Microsoft and (as he blogs) gets drunk with senior Microsoft employees. The timing is bad, to say the least, who wants to use crippleware and anything smelling of MS/Novell?
Other people have said but I will add: There is nothing earthshaking about Miguel's desire to extend Mono, his copy of
I believe his arguments are disingenuous. (Well, fake.) MS is NOT able to easily push new technologies into acceptance. They can spend a lot of money on advertising. The video of siverlight movie editing was cute but huh? It was using a faked Minority Report video, and an attempt to make a Minority Report interface (not as good as Kai's Power Tools about 10 years before this), and a laugh at anyone who really does video editing. This new Novell project is premature, serves to support MS embrace and extend, paints a nice target for threats and guess what if you build a successful company on it MS will own your ass.
Whatever silverlight promises may be nice to have, and some snippets I saw in his blog about Ruby and 3D sounded enticing. But you know what? You don't need anything Microsoft to do cool things. Maybe this will be impetus for open source people who don't work at Novell and carouse with the MS senior execs to get moving on developing something more interesting. I'd rather not intentionally put manacles on my own arms and wait for the other shoe to drop, which is what it seems is required for using Miguel's software. Head in the sand indeed, let's wait until the world depends on silverlight I've got plenty of other things to do. Someone tell me why you want to help son of SCO? Getting drunk with the execs indeed! Fuck off!
And when MS ditches Silverlight., what've ya got? (Score:1)
(http://trimbo.blogspot.com/)
That's not to say these aren't good products, they just never caught on so Microsoft's dev teams moved on.
Taking on the CLR, the BCL, Windows.Forms, etc. made a lot more sense because it's used so heavily in the corporate world.
Silverlight, on the other hand, is a consumer technology trying to take marketshare from Adobe. It's a long road to try to do that against any technology that has 95% of the market (like, ahem, windows itself). I don't really understand why Novell would want to take a risk on this. Instead, shore up the ASP.NET code. Keep working on Windows.Forms, LINQ, etc., etc. Those are the most viable businesses... not the Flash rip-off.
Java Applets (Score:1)
And Java is a proven technologie, it is really cross-platform and the next version will be open-sourced.
Wake up (Score:1, Insightful)
Over the past half decade or so, Microsoft has been developing arguably the most comprehensive and coherent development platform ever on the planet, viz.
This kind of argument is completely besides the point. While some parts of
(Yes, we are all software developers and enthusiasts. We all know the joys of loosely coupled systems and the evils of integration. I'm realy not interested in a generic discussion on that. In practice all good things have costs and all bad things have benefits and
With
That would be a very wrong impression.
Therefore to suggest that Miguel or "we" could or even should be developing an "alternative to Silverlight" is absolute nonsense and indicates an utter blindness for the bigger picture.
The whole point of
Even if you develop something that's significantly better than
Microsoft has been busy rewriting their entire crufty codebase to a modern, unified platform. We are still arguing over widget sets and the relative merits of the GNOME file selector dialog vs. the KDE one. Wake up people.
Re:Wake up (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.ki.se/ | Last Journal: Tuesday August 28, @07:06AM)
Yes there is, the Java platform, which has a larger number of users, developers, and platforms it has been ported to.
We know. Microsofts roof. I don't want to be there.
eliminates entire classes of "glue" and "can't get there from here" problems.
I notice you don't give any concrete examples to refute... Is it possible that some of these "can't get there from here" problems you mention exist on other platforms because they were designed with more security in mind, or to be more platform independent for instance?
You've all seen the demos of movies projected onto flying 3D surfaces etcetera
Pfft. Like that is new. Come back when it works both for Linux, Solaris, Mac, or Windows, OpenGL accelerated [java.net].
With
Just like the Java platform then, only 5 years late and Windows only.
Christ, that sounds like a commercial.
Yes, you do sound very much like a commercial.
Miguel is not a visionary (Score:2)
The Cult of Slashdot (Score:1)
It's time to start REALLY seeing the world in grays folks - not just critiquing other people's sacred cows but questioning your own assumptions as well.
-NB
Firefox is fundamentally powerful enough for this (Score:1)
(http://wtf.ihavenopage.com/)
. . . already.
Adobe donated a JIT Javascript so it should be quite quick.
The Firefox API is huge and hugely powerful.
So perhaps it's mainly some development tools that are required?
I must say that MS seems to be repackaging other people's ideas again.
Don't touch it. (Score:1)
Icaza will not come to your rescue once Microsoft Legal has taken over. Neither will Novell.
Re:I'm beginning to... (Score:1)
(http://fredrik.rambris.com/)
Re:Someone Forgot To Tell Miguel... (Score:2)
(http://www.noooxml.org/petition)
Probably the only good thing to come out of the whole MS/Novell mess.
Watching OS X software scene very closely for years, I haven't seen a single product. None. I especially remark OS X since it is more "end user", more "commercial friendly" OS. I haven't seen a single product which uses
BTW as usual, while MS "plans", other companies who really doesn't care what OS you use produces. See Adobe Apollo "alpha", even at Alpha stage, it happily loads a full feature media player to my OS X Desktop
I got "Vuze" (Azureus 3) running at background written entirely in Java, ships for every platform.
So, besides Novell being (or playing) naive again,what is the deal.