Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

MS Silverlight a Step Back For Linux Users

Posted by kdawson on Wed Apr 18, 2007 07:55 AM
from the no-media-for-penguins dept.
mattb0611 writes "Just as it seemed that Linux users (especially 64-bit users) would finally be able to enjoy streaming content with a minimum of hassle, Microsoft's new Silverlight software promises to throw a monkey wrench in the works — as they have yet to suggest any sort of Linux platform support."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • Aw, come on (Score:5, Funny)

    by lukas84 (912874) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:01AM (#18780149) Homepage
    It supports BOTH platforms. Windows AND Mac. How much better can it get?
    • Re:Aw, come on (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2007, @09:09AM (#18780825)
      MS has a bad habit of dropping cross platform support for their products:
      1) IE for the mac
      2) WMP for the mac
      3) Degraded MS Office functionality in Office 12 (scripting support for the mac).

      They did announce that there might be support for Linux. If there is it won't last.
      Step 1: Create cross platform product
      Step 2: Get everyone to use cross platform product
      Step 3: Drop support for every product that doesn't run Windows
      Step 4: Profit (get customers to switch back to Windows)

    • by Fujisawa Sensei (207127) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @10:05AM (#18781717)

      Shouldn't that be BOTH platforms: Vista and XP?

      • Re:Aw, come on (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2007, @09:23AM (#18781015)

        This got me to thinking, though - they support Mac. Perhaps that could be leveraged into Linux support somehow? I mean, Macs have a BSD-like basis, and a neat set of well-documented Mac APIs on top of it (Cocoa, etc.). How hard would it be to take a Silverlight runtime and write a 'wrapper' (an emulation layer, perhaps like WINE but on a much smaller scale) to get it to work on Linux?


        Very, very hard. Forget the smaller scale than WINE - you're going to need large parts of the MacOS video infrastructure (CoreVideo, Quartz, likely QuickTime). If the mac client is not written in Cocoa, you'll need large parts of Carbon. (If it is in Cocoa, you could use GNUstep as a basis and avoid some work). You'ld be better off trying your luck with running the Windows version of Silverlight using WINE.

        MacOS's BSD-like basis (and X11 support) means it is usually fairly simple to port Unix applications to MacOS (often just a recompile); the other direction is a lot more difficult.
  • by N8F8 (4562) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:05AM (#18780175)
    I'm as much a Linux fan as the next guy but I HATE when I see this crap where MS is supposed to wipe the penguin's ass. Time for hte Open Source folks to innovate or get out of the way. Adobe(Macromedia) Flash has been around for a LONG time and I have yet to see anyone attempt to come up with a serious Open Source alternative.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:19AM (#18780283)
      While I agree with the gist of your argument, creating an open source replacement for an existing proprietary software application is not innovation, it's imitation. If the imitation is better than the original, you could call it refinement.
    • by Realistic_Dragon (655151) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:31AM (#18780379) Homepage
      That is highly unrealistic. The biggest reason is that as soon as Microsoft pushes Starlight as a 'critical update' (as they did for IE 7) its market share will take a massive jump to over 60%. The best Linux/OSS could manage in an initial stage would be 10% and that is a WILDLY OPTIMISTIC estimate.

      If I were a media manager, considering the current penetration of Flash, I might think about targeting a platform with a 60% share in addition to Flash, 10% would be extremely unlikely. So, a new OSS rich media format wouldn't work not because of the player but because of the content producers.
      • by mormop (415983) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @09:22AM (#18780989)
        "That is highly unrealistic. The biggest reason is that as soon as Microsoft pushes Starlight as a 'critical update' (as they did for IE 7) its market share will take a massive jump to over 60%. The best Linux/OSS could manage in an initial stage would be 10% and that is a WILDLY OPTIMISTIC estimate."

        Sounds like using an existing monopoly to leverage your way into another market to me. Can't wait to see what the EU does with this one.
    • by alexhs (877055) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:40AM (#18780469) Homepage Journal
      Wow, a copy of an OS News flame post [osnews.com] :) (same team of astroturfers ?)

      Seriously, there is none so deaf as he who will not hear.

      What about all these fine standards made available by the W3C [w3.org] ? SMIL [w3.org] maybe ?

      Wait, nobody uses it because MSIE, used by 80% of people, doesn't implement it. Who's at fault ?
      From the Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], implementation have been made mainly for handheld and mobile devices... where MSIE doesn't rule.
  • Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by aurelian (551052) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:06AM (#18780179)
    Does that mean every technology or product released by anybody not supporting Linux is a 'step back for Linux'?
  • by QuietLagoon (813062) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:07AM (#18780193)
    they have yet to suggest any sort of Linux platform support.

    That is one of the main goals behind Silverlight, to take control of the active media web content delivery mechanisms, so that Microsoft can provide support only for "friendly" operating systems.

    Do you really think that Microsoft would do anything to promote the Linux platform on the desktop?

      • by Waffle Iron (339739) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @09:16AM (#18780909)

        then why is Mac included?

        The Mac is Microsoft's antitrust insurance card. It only costs them ~5% lower market share to keep the government mostly off their backs. That's why MS bailed out Apple with a big cash transfusion and commitments for Mac versions of Office about 10 years ago.

        Microsoft knows that with Apple's hardware lockin business model, there's little chance of their computer market share ever increasing by a significant amount, so this is a safe move for MS. Linux, OTOH, is a more dangerous unknown quantity. With an alien business model and dozens of companies involved with it, the ultimate impact on Microsoft's market share is unpredictable.

  • Of course (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dctoastman (995251) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:07AM (#18780195) Homepage
    This is only a step back if people actually use Silverlight to develop content. And we all know Microsoft will, but unless they bundle it and make it the default with Visual Studio, then there probably won't be that large of an adoption.
  • .NET (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dhasenan (758719) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:13AM (#18780239)
    It's based on .NET, so unless there are specific OS checks in the binaries, it should be possible to run the Firefox plugin with Mono (probably with modifications to Mono, since it doesn't have any .NET 3 support yet). And since there's a Mac version, we can be reasonably certain that things like UNIX-style paths are supported.

    This is actually better for Linux users than MS's traditional behavior.
  • The solution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mwvdlee (775178) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:15AM (#18780245) Homepage
    The solution is; don't use it.

    The problem is that many people will complain about this sort of tech, then use it anyway.
    • Re:The solution (Score:4, Insightful)

      by LarsWestergren (9033) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:22AM (#18780299) Homepage Journal
      The solution is; don't use it.

      Amen. It's going to be a new DRM infested attempt to get a monopoly in the media distribution market anyway - why the heck are you people outraged that it probably won't come to your platform? I'd be happy if it came to as few as possible.
  • by ChaoticCoyote (195677) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:15AM (#18780247) Homepage

    It's an honest question: Why would Microsoft release software to enhance Linux?

    Linux users do not pay for software; that's the nature of the beast. I've been running Linux full-time since the early 1.x versions, and I've never purchased a single piece of software for it. So I don't see what the incentive is for Microsoft to support Linux.

    Much as I love Linux and free software, it is self-defeating and unrealistic to demand that Microsoft (and other companies) support Linux. Perhaps the much-vaunted free software community should produce its own solutions that are better then the closed-source competition? Instead of complaining about what other people do, take responsibility for your own needs and write the software you want.

    Isn't free software up to the challenge?

    • by ausoleil (322752) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:26AM (#18780339) Homepage
      Linux users do not pay for software; that's the nature of the beast.

      Please, tell me how much the Flash plug-in for Internet Explorer costs. I forget.

      I don't see what the incentive is for Microsoft to support Linux.


      Another view is that they should support their paying customers who develop Silverlight content for their websites who may not give a hoot about Microsoft v. Linux and simply want the people viewing the sites they create to see all of their content no matter the OS platform they are using.

      Of course, this could backfire on Microsoft too -- without all of the pertinent platforms supported, I won't migrate from Creative Studio to Microsoft products because I am not going to go to my customers and say that my preferred development platform is going to reduce their potential viewers.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:16AM (#18780259)
    Sure it's cross platform compatable

    It supports both XP and Vista!

  • Catch up (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pr0nbot (313417) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:22AM (#18780309)
    Until open standards are the norm, Linux and the Open Source world will always be playing a game of catch-up as far as proprietary technologies are concerned. In many cases, we'll probably never see a functioning OSS alternative.

    Unfortunately, I expect patents are a major barrier to the community developing its own standards independently of those with an interest in restricting technologies. Perhaps the best hope is the public sector, e.g. the BBC's Dirac codec.
  • In other news.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:30AM (#18780373)
    McDonald's causes great hassle for Burger King as they refuse to release the recipe for the Big Mac's secret sauce. Sadly, this will only be available at McDonald's for the time being. There are no plans for cross-restaurant release.
  • by redelm (54142) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @08:41AM (#18780487) Homepage
    ... what did you expect? Complaince with the spirit of court orders? MSFT won't even comply with the letter! And they're not shy of using their monopoly position to leverage other monopolies (highly illegal).

    For inexplicable reasons, people persistantly think of MSFT as a benevolent technically-oriented company which is profitable because it serves the market and gives people what they want.

    It is not and has never been. MSFT is a commercial marketing enterprise with considerable talents both as marketers and in contractual/legal arrangements. Their technical talents are very meagre. Most software they have bought from others or essentially contracted (even if inhouse).

    They are also an adjudged monopolist (only the remedies were thrown out on appeal, _not_ the findings!) who have been entirely predatory "red-in-tooth-and-claw" and unfairly successful.

  • by gig (78408) on Wednesday April 18 2007, @09:12AM (#18780853)
    Even if you use a Microsoft or Real streaming server, the content is ultimately stored in QuickTime. MPEG-4 is the open standardization of the QuickTime file format, and using the standard H.264 video codec and AAC audio codec you can make a movie that plays everywhere. Not just on a personal computer, but also on iPod or PlayStation. This kind of movie is the successor to the DVD, whether you play it off a next-generation optical disc format such as Blu-Ray or not. The MPEG-4 container this movie is wrapped in is identical to the QuickTime file format and can hold any kind of media QuickTime can hold, including Flash and Java. So there is no question how you can include multimedia content in the media players of today and the future. These standards are years old.

    The problem with Silverlight is if it only plays on a personal computer it is already obsolete. Even if it played on Windows, Mac and Linux personal computers, still no good. There are too many phones and iPods and various other devices that have the ability to play audio and video (not to mention TV's), and these devices all have H.264/AAC decoders in them. There is no room for multiple codecs and no general purpose CPU to decode them. These are DVD players which are data-storage agnostic.

    People say why doesn't AppleTV let you watch YouTube in addition to streaming movie trailers from Apple.com? Because the AppleTV decodes H.264 video in its GPU and YouTube is not H.264. The CPU in the AppleTV is under clocked to stay cool, it would have to run all the time to decode YouTube and it would have to be 2-3x the speed also. YouTube is not iPod-ready, not handheld-ready, not living room -ready by any stretch. It's very PC-oriented.

    If MS can't sell WMA then how can they sell Silverlight? It is foolish. Even if every iPod user didn't already have QuickTime on their Mac or PC it would be a really hard sell to content creators to be bothered with multimedia content that is personal computer only. There are two billion phones that all need to be replaced in the next two years and the iPhone is kicking off the true handheld Web by reading actual Web pages plus MPEG-4 audio video. It is way too late for you if you are talking about what format audio and video is going to be stored and streamed in. It is also way too late for MS to get a fair chance with content creators when their greatest contribution so far has been to fuck with QuickTime at every chance they get.