HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux

darkonc points us to a writeup on linux.com about a very Linux-unfriendly policy at HP. A woman bought a Compaq laptop and loaded Ubuntu on it. Some time later, still well inside the 1-year hardware warranty, the keyboard started acting up. An HP support rep told her, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation. (Linux.com and Slashdot are both part of OSTG.)

Illegal?

What does software have to do with a hardware waranty?

Re:Illegal?

That LINUX is evil, just ask M$, they will tell you how it crashes computers all the time. I have heard of stories where LINUX has turned off the sun. Third grade linux users are writing code that causes hardware like keyboards and mice to break all the time... How is HP supposed to be responsible such catastrophies...

Oh wait tech support for linux on systems costs companies more, that's why it voids the warranty... I would like to see some one take this to court.

Re:Illegal?

A local IT support company locally called NEXT/IT actually tells customer that linux causes viruses and security holes if it's anywhere in their office. Microsoft tries hard to make sure their partners spread BS FUD like that from the corporate level to the field techs. I find it offensive and inform customers that if a company rep starts spewing things like that then they need to see it as a warning that they are probably lying about other aspects as well.

Re:Illegal?

This has nothing to do with Linux. I once owned a Toshiba that came with Win98 installed. I had installed Win2000 on the computer as a dual boot with the win98. Later I was having some hardware issues that fell under warranty. On the phone, the technician told me that I had to have the original Win98 on the computer. I explained that I had it but I dual boot into win2000. That wasn't good enough. It had to have the original configuration only. I hung up and called back and lied about only having win98 installed.

From their point of view, they need to have the software in a known state so that they can troubleshoot the hardware. They don't want to go to the expense of sending out a technician (I had an on-site warranty) if the problem turned out to not be hardware related and they needed to know that the technician will be familiar with the OS so they can do their troubleshooting as well.

I know it's fun to jump on the "everyone is against Linux" bandwagon but this just isn't the case in this situation.

Re:Illegal?

The thing is, the warranty makes no mention of any software requirements. Its all well and good if they don't want to support Linux (well, imo its wrong, but still legal), but if they don't say "Changing the OS on this system voids the warranty" then what HP/Compaq is doing is fraud. You can't arbitrarily void the warranty. Otherwise they could say, "Oh, you installed Firefox? We only allow you to use IE, your warranty is now void." etc.

Re:Illegal?

I sent my notebook in to HP earlier this year because the keyboard was acting up. I reported that the behavior was the same in Windows and Linux. They replaced the keyboard and a couple of other things with no problem. . .

Re:Illegal?

Its all well and good if they don't want to support Linux (well, imo its wrong, but still legal), but if they don't say "Changing the OS on this system voids the warranty" then what HP/Compaq is doing is fraud. You can't arbitrarily void the warranty.

If you read carefully you'll see they didn't claim that installing linux "voids the warranty" (though the article, confusingly, suggests that they did). At least not as I understand the term. I thought it referred to something unreversible--like dropping it off a tall building.

They asked her to wipe the system and restore the original OS before returning the laptop.

Which is still annoying--it shouldn't be that hard for them just to boot the thing from a diagnostic disk if they want to test with a known software configuration. I'd think the sensible thing would be to say "ship it to us, but back it up first; if we suspect a software problem we reserve the right to return the disk to its original state before returning it, but we'll try not to do that unless it's necessary."

Re:Illegal?

"From their point of view, they need to have the software in a known state so that they can troubleshoot the hardware."

Well then, what they need to do is provide a live CD that can test the hardware no matter what state the software is currently in. Once they know the hardware is good, they can give software support or not based on what is on the hardware.

all the best,

drew

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=zotzbro [youtube.com]

Re:Illegal?

I sole-boot linux on a Dell, and when my file system got corrupted, I ran badblocks to make sure it was a hard disk issue. It turned out to be a bunch of bad sectors in the middle of my drive. So I called Dell, completely explained the situation, including the sole-boot and running badblocks, and not only did the guy not hang up on me, he started talking about linux with me and seemed actually supportive of it. He asked me to boot into the recovery partition (which I had obviously deleted), so I told him I wiped it, and he asked me to boot onto the recovery CD. The regular CD diagnostics that he told me to run was just a simple memtest and a very high level HDD read test, both of which passed. I knew the disk was dead though, so I told him I was going to run some other of Dell's tests (they have multiple HDD tests), and he said he would call me back. He called back in about an hour, and sure enough there were multiple read errors. I got my new disk (they even gave me an extra 40GB free) overnight. So whatever HP does, and whatever crap Dell takes, Dell still gets my support for their support.

Re:Illegal?

When you get a helpful tech, do ask how to contact their supervisor in order to praise their professionalism. Even if their boss does nothing for them, the praise will help them get through the stress brought on by the more "difficult" customers.

Re:Illegal?

Yep. That's what I do. I get an extra HD and back up the original factory installation. That way if some dickhead from coporate wants to see a Windows box, he'll see one. Wanna know why this works for Linux users? Because the ONLY time we call support is when the hardware is actually broken. Unlike the Windows dorks who think their systems are broken when it's really a software issue.

Re:Not illegal for my desktop

the computer was designed for Windows and I could not get support for Linux.

Just about every personal computer since mid 90's (Macs excepted) is designed to run a flavor of Windows. Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them. Do you think Intel and AMD could not make a multi-core processor until about last year? They could do it since almost ever (I have seen multi-processor 386 systems), but there would be next to no market for them as Windows 98 couldn't use more than one processor.

Truth is - most computers are really designed to run Windows and this has inhibited or postponed many technical advances. We still use glorified 5150's.

BTW, manufacturers are quite happy with this.

Windows, Office, and Alphas

Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them.

I do have an Alpha close enough so my knee can touch it. It runs Win NT 4 and though I don't have it MS did release a version of Office to run on it. I think the only reason Alpha didn't last long was because DEC dropped the ball. They didn't do enough to market Alphas, Amiga deja vu all over again. They also didn't work on FX!32 enough to get it working tranlating software. On my Alpha I was only able to install one commecial app and a few shareware programs.

Falcon

Re:Illegal?

Because the ONLY time we call support is when the hardware is actually broken.

Are you certain of this? I have been to some LUG's where there were Linux newbies there who were migrating off of Microsoft not because they like Linux, but rather because they hate Microsoft. (I think that this migration is for entirely the wrong reason.) Many of these kinds of users seemed to blame the hardware of their machines, and feel that they could "demand" support for their hardware, even if it was an unsupported platform (Linux).

The thing is, a serious Linux user will check out the hardware in advance and verify compatibility, and most serious users are knowledgeable in hardware to determine that there are hardware issues. However, newbies are not. You cannot categorically say that all Linux users know their hardware, because I have seen that this is not so. I have seen new users rage against companies like HP, Dell etc. when sometimes they have not bothered to RTFM.

Likewise, I have been admonished for buying hardware that I knew would not be Linux compatible by other users. My Ati All in Wonder 9800 pro does not work under Linux, but I knew that before I bought it. I think that zealots (which is what some of the newbs I met were) harm Linux for all by actually complaining to the companies for the lack of support for Linux, but by doing it in a non-constructive manner.

So, I think that EXPERIENCED Linux users know when the hardware is broken, but then they also know to restore the default OS when getting the hardware fixed.

Re:Illegal?

Linux isn't perfect, but most Linux desktop users know what they're doing well enough to fix it themselves when something goes wrong, or they know where to look to get the information without calling tech support. In my experience in tech support, 99% of all Windows tech support calls are either virus/spyware related, or the customer did something stupid without knowing what they're doing and now the system is "broken". So yes, in my experience, if a Linux user is calling in about an issue, you can be fairly sure that something is well and truly fucked and you (or your employers) are going to be on the hook for it.

Re:Illegal?

I had to send my HP laptop in for warranty repair once. They told me the hard drive would be formatted, which I refused. After a few minutes of me basically telling them, "look, the AC socket is physically broken and it has nothing to do with software", they agreed that I could send in the computer without the hard drive.

I suggest that anyone having hardware issues with a computer running Linux do the same: explain to the tech support people that the issue has nothing to do with software, and that you've diagnosed the specific hardware failure. Make sure they let you send in the computer for repair without the hard drive included, so you won't have them hassling you about what OS you run.

Re:Illegal?

Having done full time tech support as my primary job through my undergrad and as part time during grad school, I can tell you this is true in call center tech support. I've worked for shops having the onsite service contract for an area with HP, but this basically is just go install replacement parts for customers to afraid to open the case. I have worked phone support for Gateway, Dell, and MS.

From my experience I would say that a Gateway tech would probably tell you the same line since the are under a strict time deadline at most of thier centers unless its changed a lot since I worked for them. Dell's environment for the techs isn't nearly as bad, so you would probably not get it nearly as often there, and to MS's credit they had no time limits; all they cared about was getting the customer's issue fixed even if you were on one call all day. MS also mandated much better training for the techs than Gateway and Dell did, although Dell was a better than Gateway on this by a little bit.

Technically the policies for any of the com panies I did phone support for would not support this BS. All the tech has to do to bypass any driver issues, OS issues, or other nonsense would be to test the keyboard in the BIOS, or boot from the Windows CD that came with the system and get to a command prompt that was to test it. Worst case should be that they require the customer to reinstall windows and then test it, and replace the keyboard as needed at that point.

Again I only worked onsite for HP, and it has been years since I did tech support for a living, but this is at least speaking from someone who has a lot of experience in the area.

Re:Illegal?

Specifically I was working for the support group for XP SP2 when it first came out. MS basically has each group supporting more or less a specific application. In my case thier attitude was they they did not know exactly what issues to expect out of the gate, but that the sole priority was making the customer happy. Now admittedly that is slightly different than fixing the problem. You can fix the problem, but treat the customer poorly or have a bad attitude and still piss them off, or you can be very helpful and polite and make the customer happy most of the time, even if you cannot find an immediate solution to the technical problem.

I do know that with MS, the only metric they held us to was that when they did the random call backs to survey customer satisfaction we better have at least a 90% rating of making the customer happy, no call time, no minimum number of calls per day, no pushing for sales, none of the other BS that Dell and ESPECIALLY Gateway put on thier techs. Dell was reasonable, Gateway wanted sales people that could read a checklist more than they wanted real techs and ran a lot of good techs off that way.

Good question, Drivers?

There's a warning in x86config when setting monitor refresh rates that warns you that your choice may destroy your monitor. Granted, thats not a necessary step in a lot of installs, and most people have moved to LCD screens that wouldn't explode, but I think they were thinking of something similar to that. Badly written drivers CAN destroy hardware, in rare cases.

Or, the higher level software may shorten the lifetime of hardware. Maybe Linux uses the hard disk more than Vista, which leads to higher usage frequency which causes it to reach its MTBF earlier.

Is it fair, no, not really. I'm sure you could wear out your hardware just even faster with certain applications.

They can't possible start rejecting the waranty, depending upon3rd party apps installed could they? I'm sure Something like Maya or Blender could put a lot of use on a hard disk, especially on a low end system without much RAM.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

Back in the old days, some monitors would fail to sync to some refresh rates, and the display would collapse to a dot in the centre of the screen, which would burn a hole in the phosphor (or worse).

I don't think monitors like that have been sold for the last 20 years or so, but the warning has never been removed from the manual.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

Most monitors sold in the last 10 years know which resolutions/refresh rates they support and will display an appropriate error screen if you feed it the wrong signal.

Re:Good question, Drivers?

There's a warning in x86config when setting monitor refresh rates that warns you that your choice may destroy your monitor.

That shouldn't be true with modern hardware. Five years ago I got a new CRT (replacement for an old one which was kind enough to die shortly before the end of the warranty). The shop had told me, the new one supported the same frequency ranges as the old one, so I just connected it and started up the computer. Once X started, the monitor went black and showed a message stating the input frequency was outside the supported range. And I guess that kind of protection was pretty much standard at monitors at that time. The monitor didn't break, but of course I returned it anyway, cause I was supposed to get a new one at least as good as the old one. (Apparently the sales people didn't know that 75kHz was less than 85kHz.)

Badly written drivers CAN destroy hardware, in rare cases.

No. Badly designed hardware can destroy hardware. If there is any way in which the software can destroy the hardware, it is by definition a latent flaw in the hardware. Yes, a badly designed driver can expose the flaw, but the hardware was already flawed. And yes, sometimes manufactures do produce an entire series of equipment where all of it suffers from the same latent flaw. As long as it is one component destroying itself, it may be reasonable to deal with. It of course gets worse if one piece of hardware has a flaw which causes it to destroy other hardware. (Imagine a flaw in a graphics board that allows a bad driver to drive up the output voltage to the point of breaking the monitor. Luckily that scenario is probably highly unlikely, but I guess high voltage is the most likely thing which isn't trivial for hardware to protect itself against).

Re:Good question, Drivers?

Exception: a firmware updater. If hardware has firmware that can be updated, you can hose it with software by uploading broken firmware. The hardware should check to see if the checksums are right and stuff like that, but that won't keep somebody who wants to break hardware from doing so. There's usually no good way to prevent that; the firmware must be valid for the device to show up on the bus so that you can flash the firmware. Thus, if the firmware is hosed, so is the device. I suppose that for a bit more money, you could do an unwritable base image with a reset button, but that only helps if you know about the reset button. Your typical user would simply see it as a dead device.

Re:Illegal?

When you are using unsupported drivers who's to say the driver didn't screw up the hardware.

Exactly how is an unsupported driver supposed to cause physically sticky keys?

Re:Illegal?

Microsoft has had Sticky Keys [microsoft.com] in Windows for years and years now. Maybe someone just developed a similar driver for Linux?

(yes, I know)

Re:Illegal?

Your "(yes, I know)" just ruined my chance at "whoosh" jokes following responses to this post.

Re:Illegal?

When you are using unsupported drivers who's to say the driver didn't screw up the hardware.

So does it void your warranty if you install an unsupported driver in Windows? And supported by whom? If I have an nvidia card, is the driver from Nvidia "supported"? What about the one from Windows Update? Or is it only the driver HP supplies for me? And what if I install a 3rd party piece of hardware or software which results in installing "unsupported drivers"? What if you tried listening to a Sony audio CD and got a rootkit?

Until they provide a list of all "supported" software, or all software which voids your warranty, they should just support the hardware. It's a general assumption that people are going replace software, or at least install additional software, after they buy a computer. If manufacturers are going to start denying warranties because of software installed, it sets a dangerous precedent.

Also..

..the warranty on your car is invalid if you let someone smarter than you drive it.

Translation

Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation.

Translation: Gateway and Dell definitely won't honor the warranty and wish to remain free from bad press until they are forced to reveal the truth.

Re:Translation

dell is ALSO guilty:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?for um=1004&thread=22581483 [dpreview.com]

no WONDER why they had 'no comment'.

Re:Translation

in my experience (twice now) Dell will honor their warranty if you run Linux (but then I always return the laptop without the hard drive), but both times I told them I ran linux

This is disappointing

and surprising to me at the same time - HP always seemed to be "one of the good guys", fostering and supporting GNU/Linux and free software on many occassions (for instance, HP provides the quite powerful infrastructure for kernel.org [kernel.org]).

I was going to go buy a HP notebook some time later this year, but as things turn out this way, I'll stick to Lenovo/IBM once more again...

Not Unreasonable

If Linux probes your hardware (monitor) and selects the incorrect settings, could that not potentially harm your screen? I am not saying Windows is not capable or the same problem, but at least you are not trouble shooting an entire OS. How does the woman know that she has not messed up some keyboard setting on Ubuntu? I would not want to be the tech who must troubleshoot over the phone a system which has a different OS than that which is installed. I love Linux, but you have to draw the line on troubleshooting somewhere.