Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Why You Can't Buy a Naked PC

Posted by Zonk on Fri Mar 16, 2007 04:41 PM
from the put-some-clothes-on dept.
ZDOne writes "A piece up on ZDNet looks at the issue of naked PCs. ZDNet UK phoned around all the major PC vendors and not one of them would sell a machine without Windows on it. IT professionals are being forced to adopt Microsoft's operating systems — even if they tell their PC supplier they want a system free of Microsoft software. On the other hand, even if it's almost impossible to buy a PC without an operating system installed, companies like Dell and HP are now committed to supporting Linux as well. 'Murray believes there is a market for Linux in the UK but is also aware of the issues facing any large supplier who wants to make Linux boxes available. "It means diverting production lines and that is a lot of money and so we have to prove the business case," he said. However, he made it clear that he is enthusiastic about the idea and wants to make it work. "We just have to show it is worthwhile," he said.'"
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Technology: Dell Refunds Vista/Works With Two Emails 277 comments
look@thealternative.ch writes "Although many people have asked for pre-installed Linux, and Dell seems to have listened, some still think that buying a naked PC won't be easy. But what about stripping it naked after you buy it? I managed to get Windows Vista (and a bit more) refunded from Dell Germany last week. The process was surprisingly simple: 1) After delivery, ask Dell Support for refund by email. 2) ??? 3) Refund!!! Read the full email conversation in the original German or my English translation. For the impatient reader: The refund is €77.54 for Windows Vista Home Basic plus Works 8.0 (that is 15% of the total amount I paid). The whole process took 2 emails, 2 more to say thank you, and less than 48 hours. The money is already in my account. Kudos to Dell Customer Care (esp. 'Veronika') for being efficient and customer-oriented!"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • by Overzeetop (214511) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:45PM (#18380217) Journal
    I don't get it. You get the Win for "free" (or less) due to the nagware installed. Why not just get the pc with linux-capable components, let the advertizers pay for your unused copy of windows, and install your favorite flavor of linux (or whatever you plan on using)?

    I have yet to get a new pc I didn't re-image or install from scratch anyway. If I used linux I'm certain I wouldn't like the vendor's setup any more than I like their win installs. Too many custom setting to get these kinds of things to work they way we use them. If the windows is effectively free, and you have to do a reinstall anyway, why not just ignore it?

    Oh, right - it's far more appropriate to whine about it.
    • by JesseL (107722) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:48PM (#18380247) Homepage Journal
      How do you figure you're getting windows for free? I guarantee that the vendor is paying Microsoft for the license (even if it's heavily discounted), and they're not going to just swallow that cost - it will get passed on to you.
      • by Hektor_Troy (262592) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:00PM (#18380417)
        Great, just great ... another groups of people who won't swallow.
      • by CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:06PM (#18380509) Journal
        Its discounted sure, but there is also a lot of other revenue they make when Windows is preinstalled. Google (or some other search provider) pays to have thier search engine set as the default, AOL pays to have thier crapware installed. McAfee pays to have thier 60 free-trial installed. etc, etc, etc.

        I don't know that any real numbers have ever been released, but many analysts I've read think the main PC sellers actually make money just by including Windows because of all the other stuff they install on the PC with it.
        • by JesseL (107722) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:14PM (#18380619) Homepage Journal
          The last few new Dells I've dealt with had a bare minimum of crap installed, Google Desktop was pretty much all there was.
          • by meme lies (1050572) on Friday March 16 2007, @06:57PM (#18381593)
            The last few new Dells I've dealt with had a bare minimum of crap installed, Google Desktop was pretty much all there was.


            Where they bought through the "Home" or "Business" sections of Dell's site?

            Because (and this is no secret, and not limited to Dell) the computers sold to "home" and "student" users are the ones loaded with garbage. The business models are pretty much clean, for obvious reasons. And the deals are usually better, too...

              • by Hortensia Patel (101296) on Friday March 16 2007, @07:47PM (#18382003)
                If the text is too small, make it bigger by increasing the font size. Don't compromise the resolution of everything on the system just to make the text bigger.

                In an ideal world, you'd be absolutely right. In the current one, not so much. I have an old Dell laptop with a 15.4" screen at 1920x1200, and WinXP really doesn't cope all that well. Changing the DPI setting (the "correct" solution) broke pretty much everything. Keeping the standard-but-wrong DPI and cranking up font sizes used to mostly work except for dialog boxes, which go badly messed up. At some point MS gave up and changed their policy via an update; now, dialog box text is always sized for 96dpi and cannot be enlarged.

                Ironically, the only thing that manages layout flawlessly and respects font size prefs is Eclipse's SWT toolkit. MS stuff is absolutely nowhere.
        • by 1u3hr (530656) on Friday March 16 2007, @11:05PM (#18382901)
          Most people on /. would argue that the value of OEM windows is also less than zero. Not a problem, since this negative-value software is trivially removed. Win-win.

          On a purely financial basis, it's sensible to buy Windows and throw it away. What burns people is that they're enriching Bill Gates with their purchase, even if they delete his software and never use it, and entrenching his monopoly. And the OEMs can state there is no demand for anything else; a vicious circle. It could get more vicious when "Trusted Computing" makes it harder and harder for non-MS OSs to use the hardware at all. With 100% of their sales Windows installed, the OEMs don't care if their hardware supports any other OS.

    • by panda (10044) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:50PM (#18380269) Homepage Journal
      You can buy servers from Dell with no pre-installed operating system. I know 'cause I've recently bought two.

      Interestingly enough, when you choose the no operating system option, the server suddenly costs $799 less than with Windows 2003 R2 installed.

      I don't know how you do math where you are from, but where I'm from $799 isn't free.

      Oh, and that's U.S. dollars, just to clarify.
    • by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:13PM (#18380595)

      I don't get it. You get the Win for "free" (or less) due to the nagware installed.

      Actually, the best estimates I've seen place Dell's price for an OEM copy of Windows Vista home at about twice the price Dell is paid for installing nagware. As the computer company you are dealing with gets smaller their Windows discount gets smaller and this delta grows even larger.

      Why not just get the pc with linux-capable components, let the advertizers pay for your unused copy of windows, and install your favorite flavor of linux (or whatever you plan on using)?

      Because if they could sell in volume without Windows it would be cheaper yet (drastically cheaper if they lined up Linux nagware) and because without the vendor pre-installing and testing Windows any guarantee that it is "linux capable" is subject to being an exaggeration or just plain wrong. For example, at a previous company we bought Dell towers in bulk that we destined to run Linux, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. We already owned a site license for Windows with plenty of free seats. We still had to pay for licenses for those machines even though we did not want them. Also, being Dell, despite having the same model number and being part of the same shipment, only about 1/3 of the machines actually had all parts that were the same as the test boxes we were shipped and had all the drivers we needed. Out of a few hundred machines we got 3 different video cards, several controllers, hard drives, CD-drives, etc.

      I have yet to get a new pc I didn't re-image or install from scratch anyway. If I used linux I'm certain I wouldn't like the vendor's setup any more than I like their win installs. Too many custom setting to get these kinds of things to work they way we use them. If the windows is effectively free, and you have to do a reinstall anyway, why not just ignore it?

      You and I are going to image anything we get. The average consumer does not know what an OS is and would never attempt to install one. More importantly, the vendor having to ship with Linux and support it insures all the hardware will have drivers and you have a source for those drivers.

      • We Linux guys are picky enough we know exactly which distro and what version of that distro, and which of all the available packages we want installed - and we'd probably rather do it ourselves, anyways. So yeah, there's little point in whining, except for that statistics thing.
        And the tendency of too many hardware manufacturers to 1. not provide Linux or *BSD drivers, 2. not describe their hardware in enough detail to allow the free software community to develop and maintain its own drivers, 3. silently replace the chipset with an incompatible chipset in a revision of the same make and model of hardware, and 4. promote such incompatible hardware to OEMs. Buying a PC with preinstalled Ubuntu OS at least makes sure that your PC contains Linux-compatible hardware.
      • by fishbowl (7759) <{ten.xoc} {ta} {kcahten}> on Friday March 16 2007, @05:18PM (#18380653)
        >I can order a cheeseburger minus the tomato and they don't have to make it on a separate production
        >line. They just... don't put that on it.

        In case you are too young to remember, Burger King actually built their market niche on that problem. The other big Hamburger restaurant had developed a model where the food was prepared in advance and special orders were a problem. Burger King came along with a whole marketing angle based on making the burgers fresh, and they promoted it with one of the catchiest jingles in all of advertising history :-)
          • by jfengel (409917) on Friday March 16 2007, @06:09PM (#18381199) Homepage Journal
            I used to work at a McD's. (Yeah, I'm a professional computer programmer now.) I can tell you that we absolutely, positively did not give a rat's ass about your special order. Maybe the guys over at BK were paid enough to care, but I was working for four bucks an hour. A special order came over the printer every once in a while and we ignored it until it went away.
  • I blame Bush, the Religious Right and the Christian Coalition. As soon as you talk about anything being naked, they're hitting the speed dial to call their lawyers...

  • by Rude Turnip (49495) <valuation.gmail@com> on Friday March 16 2007, @04:49PM (#18380263)
    If Dell or Gateway won't sell a naked PC, then let that be their folly if such strategy fails. In the meantime, do a bit of research and find smaller vendors that will sell a PC sans OS. Here's a small company that sells many brands of laptops with no OS by default: www.powernotebooks.com. If it wasn't for the Intel Macbook line coming out, I would have gone with something from them.

    Put your money where your mouth is, do business with those small companies and they'll eventually become big ones if the demand is great enough. Dell once started out as a small company and selling computers with Windows worked for them.
  • by BSDetector (1056962) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:50PM (#18380273)
    Can someone tell me where/how I can buy an Apple-branded computer without an Apple-supplied O/S?
  • by Boadi (1010283) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:51PM (#18380279) Homepage
    Anyone above the age of 18 should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want to see a naked pc. Wait...
  • by Mr. Hankey (95668) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:52PM (#18380293) Homepage
    Dell sells the n series with FreeDOS. That's about as close to a naked PC as you can get. They also sell workstation-class systems (the Precision series) with Linux pre-installed, we buy them at work. You can even download drivers that work from their site, as I found out recently with a Precision 690 running WS4. Their sound drivers went in, and after removing the included non-functional driver everything worked great. I can't complain. HP also sells Linux systems, and we have a few.

    Aside from those vendors, and numerous others that specialize in Linux, I build my own systems for home use. Not a one of them has ever come with Windows.
    • The ACTUAL reason, since you CAN buy PCs with operating systems other than Windows (as you say) is that they don't want to let a PC go out the door without an operating system on it. That lets them prove that it works, and it gives them SOME means of troubleshooting (although I don't know what tools FreeDOS has for, say, checking PCI IDs and the like. But it could have something, I wouldn't know.)
  • by 93 Escort Wagon (326346) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:53PM (#18380309)
    I think it's a bit more complicated. Sure we know that, historically, Microsoft has engaged in anti-competitive practices like "the Microsoft Tax". But I would think that Dell, HP, and the others are probably equally scared of people like my friend "Joe". He's cheap as (fill in your preferred perjorative here), and if he could save a few bucks buying a PC without an OS he'd do it. Problem is, he is not tech savvy in the least - so he'd get some cut-rate version of Windows one way or the other, try - and fail - to install it, then spend hours on the phone with Dell arguing over "why their computer is broken". I've tried helping him with tech problems over the phone before, and I'll tell you - it's like pulling teeth getting just basic information from him.

    When the vendors claim they don't want to sell naked PCs because of the potential support nightmare, I believe them. It's not the Slashdot crowd that's the problem; but there are 100 "Joe"s for every 1 Slashdotter.
  • by L. VeGas (580015) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:58PM (#18380379) Homepage Journal
    It's kind of like lingerie. A lot of the fun is getting it naked. If it just shows up to your door without anything, it just seems too clinical and a little tawdry.

    Yep. I'm a geek.
  • by SixDimensionalArray (604334) on Friday March 16 2007, @04:58PM (#18380385)
    I think the first thing that must be changed is the concept that you are "buying a naked pc". That implies that without the operating system, the PC is naked! Why isn't a PC without it's case screwed on considered a naked PC?

    Basically, vendors don't seem willing to believe that people have the know-how to buy some hardware and then somehow make it work, which kind of makes sense. For example, I'm sure few people would buy a PC without the BIOS installed, and Dell and the like aren't going to cater their huge business to the hobbyists who would flash a PC with their own BIOS, for example.

    On the other hand, why they can't make a small stipulation to sell X% of units raw to folks that are DIY'ers, is beyond me.. they could even sell it with a disclosure that they don't support ANY operating system in their contract, however their hardware has been tested with XYZ operating systems.

    -6d
  • by b17bmbr (608864) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:23PM (#18380735)
    I'd wager that there's not enough consumer demand (or business consumers) for naked PC's. but there are other factors as well. one, there is but one windows, and dell, et al., can taylor it to their machines and make it work at least out of the box. no, they don't have the control over it as they would linux, but they have enough. when you screw with the machine, it's you screwing with it. and help is much easier, and cheaper, when there's a single OS. imagine having to figure out the distro, the kernel, etc. it'd be a disaster.

    that linux is "free" in all senses for you and me, doesn't make it free for dell, etc. to add an OS would be very expensive and to provide none (for every comptuer), would terribly diminish their product. the OS for dell is a complementary good without which, they couldn't sell their product. not to defend MS or dell, but the truth is, MS is well within their rights to demand that dell sell a copy with every machine to get a volume discount, ability to modify it, etc. but the bottom line is that there just isn't enough interest to justify naked PC's. however, notice Dell's server line. you can get them, which ought to tell you something.
    • Re:I'm a PC (Score:4, Funny)

      by stratjakt (596332) on Friday March 16 2007, @05:16PM (#18380633) Journal
      Mac: I'm a PC too, just dont tell the elitist douchebags who own me - they shelled out a lot of cash, and think they bought something "high end". Also, I go with your drapes and swing both ways. Let me just pop up my collar and we'll buy some songs on iTunes, I know *ALL* the indie bands.