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Helping Dell To Help Open Source
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Mar 06, 2007 05:34 PM
from the skunkworks dept.
from the skunkworks dept.
Glyn Moody writes "Dell's IdeaStorm is turning into a fiasco — for Dell, and for open source as well. Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it? Here's a suggestion that I've posted on the IdeaStorm site: that Dell set up an independent business unit for GNU/Linux systems, just like The Innovator's Dilemma tells us to do when faced with a disruptive technology."
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[+]
Pre-Installed Linux Tops Dell Customer Requests 509 comments
dhart writes "Within only a few days of Dell opening a new customer feedback website, they discovered that the feature most requested (by an almost 2-to-1 margin!) is an option on all new Dell PCs: pre-installed Linux. (And the number 3 request is pre-installed Open Office.) I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'"
[+]
Pre-Installed Linux On Dells Coming 340 comments
When Michael Dell took back the reins of he company he founded, one of the first things he did was to launch the feedback site Dell Idea Storm. Following up on the recent Slashdot discussion of the early results of this experiment — an overwhelming expressed desire for pre-loaded Linux — Dell reports on what it plans to do with this feedback. Quoting: "[W]e are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. [On the question of which distro to choose:] "[T]here is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux... We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line."
[+]
Your Rights Online: Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent 228 comments
thefickler writes "It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Dell is doing with its IdeaStorm website, which the company set up to solicit such ideas and feedback. Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue."
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Dell, of course, doesn't want to start selling PCs with Linux preinstalled until they have found a suitable hardware configuration.. cut a deal with someone to outsource the support to.. etc, etc. As such, this means the Linux community has to wait and every day Dell doesn't just start selling the damn PCs is another day of flaming they will get.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Tech support is another story. Dell is trying to move everything to india and I don't think there are enough Linux fans in india to staff their helpdesk. I just can't imagine the typical workflow steps are going to work with a linux box right now.
The linux community needs PC vendors to ship systems. Why not focus on the second, third and forth vendors? For instance, say HP, Gateway and Lenovo are the next three vendors and they all ship boxes. Linux users will buy from them and dell's marketshare might drop forcing them to adopt linux. Of course I'm assuming there is a demand. In reality, we just need one vendor to adopt open source that is rather large. If they start moving machines, the other companies will hop on board.
Parent
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that was a useful post. It points out two important things the Linux community can do to help Dell get this project off the ground as quickly as possible:
1. Help with writing drivers for any Dell hardware that's too obscure to already have Linux drivers.
2. Help with generating a single comprehensive online knowledge base that outsourced tech support people could use when helping users with Linux problems.
Parent
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Informative)
By the time you are able to use Linux, you've surmounted the (many) inconvenient barriers to entry, already know how to install it to your preferences, and know how to pick hardware.
Entry-level users need massive handholding, something that does not make sense for Dell to offer.
Instead, just ask for the FreeDOS option. Your box will boot to "something" for test purposes, then you can nuke it and load your OS of choice.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am using one of these precisions. [dell.com] These are supported machines sold by Dell with RedHat preinstalled. All my hardware works.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, the fact is that there are lots of suitable hardware configurations-- being such a large OEM, the Linux community actively seeks to support Dell machines already. Most Dells you buy will run Linux, so Dell would just have to check hardware support and make sure they aren't offering Linux with hardware that doesn't offer Linux support. That shouldn't take too long.
Support seems like a bigger problem. Sure, they could sell the machines without supporting them, but what's the sense in that? If you are willing to buy a Linux machine without any support, then surely you can buy a machine without an OS and install Linux yourself.
Personally, if I were Dell, I'd be looking into making their own Dell-Linux distribution. Sure, it would probably be Debian-based with a little rebranding, but the point is that they could have the software under their own control. They'd be able to optimize it for their own hardware and drop support for whatever they don't want to support, or whatever.
Parent
You lost me on the first sentence (Score:3, Insightful)
Clearly, there is a huge pent-up demand for pre-installed GNU/Linux systems from Dell.
Ummmm... no. That isn't clear at all. A few fan-boys does not sufficient demand make.
Don't get me wrong, I run Linux myself. I just don't think that there are enough people who care one way or the other to make it worth Dell's time.
Reality is hard and grainy. Sorry.
What's the problem again? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people posted on Ideastorm that they'd like Dell to offer Linux pre-installed. Dell responded that they wern't quite ready to go that far yet but they would work toward making sure their hardware was Linux compatable so people could buy Dell with some confidence that it will work with their whatever flavor of Linux they want.
What exactly is wrong with that?
Why Again? (Score:5, Informative)
Linux is downloadable and easy to install. Or if bandwidth is a problem, you can get it on CDs for just the cost of shipping. So it seems to me all we really need is an option to buy a Dell without a pre-installed OS.
I have heard people say they want this for hardware compatibility reasons. Like if Linux came on a Dell, then all the hardware would be compatible. It seems to me though, the solution is not for Dell to use parts that Linux supports, but for Linux to support the parts that Dell is using (to any reasonable extend).
So the only reason you are left with for wanting Linux on Dells is so that the average consumer will see that they have alternatives to Windows. There will come a time where you will want your average computer user using Linux, but this is not that time. It isn't ready yet. For most things, something like Ubuntu works fine, but your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s, etc. Editing a bunch of configuration files and such is not an option. They want to click a few things and have everything work.
Linux is catching up to Windows and Microsoft is doing everything they can to sabotage themselves. Don't be impatient. If people try it now and have a horrible experience with it, it could be years (if at all) before they try it again.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell can use their volume as negotiating power with hardware vendors. If the Linux people say "hey, we own your hardware like everyone else who bought a Dell, and we'd like to support it", the ha
Re:Why Again? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the big problem facing Linux today is that it's too damn hard to get it working, then is it not blatantly obvious that the solution is to sell computers that are already properly configured?
Parent
Re:Why Again? (Score:4, Insightful)
To make Linux available to people who won't intall an OS. To increase the number of people using Linux. To improve hardware support. To break the Windows monopoly.
"...your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s"
This is the point of pre-installing. The wireless card is selected to work. MP3s and DVDs will play if the licensing is handled by Dell and built into the price of the PC. Just offering Linux compatible hardware is not enough. I wouldn't buy Dell for that, and most businesses wouldn't buy Linux Destop machines either.
"Editing a bunch of configuration files..."
Config files?! I'm not using config files for my e-mail, browser, office apps, multimedia, desktop environment, etc. For someone who tried Linux recently, you certainly have antiquated ideas of its current state.
Parent
The Easiest Way (Score:5, Insightful)
But, this will greatly increase the market share of OO.o, and home users and small businesses would reap real benefits from using a real office suite, rather than MS-Works.
Perhaps other PC makers will follow, to "compete" with Dell on this "Free Office Suite," and _they_ might install it on their systems.
I started using open source software from Mozilla Browser and OpenOffice on Windows. I was able to switch to Linux not only because I have tried to wean myself off of MS formats, but because I invested myself into platform neutrality. Having OpenOffice installed by default would do more than anything to promote this kind of independence, even if the user never actually ends up using Linux. I think this helps the open source movement even more than having a linux-OS option, because once people invest with their data, it is hard to go back to some other closed format.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually it would. Microsoft Office Crapware Edition comes loaded on most of prebuilt computers. It's a trial use version of Office.
I bet Microsoft is doing something for them for the privilege of putting that thing on there. I bet that Microsoft wouldn't be willing to do whatever that is if something better than Office Crapware was also installed.
Look At It From Dell's Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
Firmware Engineering: Oh no! I've got HOW MANY new drivers to port? I need more money, more head count!
Q/A: Oh no! What's my schedule to test these new drivers? I need more money, more head count!
Product Management: Ugh! I have to SKU up these new products? Graphics design is going to have to give me new blah/blah/blah. What about all of our OEM software partners? They aren't linux compatible. We need new product managers that are Linux geniuses.
Software Dev: Wait none of our apps are Linux compatible. Need more head count. Need to hire linux experts to do this.
Marketing: We need to buy lots of market research! We need to hire linux market experts! We're doing so much already!
Manufacturing: You want what? You've got the wrong guy in your office. The server assembly manager is the guy you need to speak with. He does expensive-but-kind-of-free-Red-Hat, not me. Wait, you want Optiplex's and Dimensions to have Linux? It can't be done. I'm not set up for it. I need more people and more money to expand operations to accommodate your new-fangled production ideas.
Support: Our Indian support center doesn't have the scripts needed to support, wait you said MANY versions of Linux? No. No way. Too complicated.
Legal: We need to enter into a contract with these Linux people. Wait, many linux people? I thought there was only one Linux. Need more head count to manage these new contracts. We need to research if this conflicts with any agreements we already have. Need to hire legal consultants that are experts in Linux. Hmmm plus all this "free" software written for hippies hasn't been vetted by the courts.
Purchasing: Where do we buy this Linux from?
Sales: All right! Linux on Dell! Let's do it! Who's with me?!?
What you are asking for (lower priced, OS-free hardware they will support) they will not give you. Besides, you will force distro's into a winner/loser software monoculture of it's own making that is best avoided at all costs. This is where the little guy thrives. Hmm, let's see http://www.sub300.com/port.htm [sub300.com] or maybe www.linspire.com, or http://system76.com/ [system76.com]?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You might have better luck looking at server motherboards. I know that most Supermicros show POST codes so if the machine keeps hanging mid-POST you can look up what it was testing and fix it. Tyan's motherboards have the same feature, I think. IBM's servers have Light Path Diagnostics (LPD) which is the same thing but includes lights inside the chassis for when you don't even get video. So if you've got a bad stick of RAM, you can pop the case and a LED will be lit next to the faulted DIMM.
Of course,
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because, "Dude, you've got a Dell!"
The simple fact of the matter is that EfficientPC is some no-name company that no one trusts. For whatever reason, at least here in the US, Dell is seen as a good name brand computer. People won't put faith in something delivered by a company that insists on a horrible color scheme and poor web design.
Dell is a big name in the PC business and by having them push out pre-installed Linux machines it shows the rest of the industry (aside from the ever so unsightly EfficientPCs) that it should also hop on the bandwagon. I just wish the Linux userbase wasn't such a bunch of self-absorbed fuckers when it comes to accepting new people or companies.
Parent
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
more:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/ [lxer.com]
http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html [linux.org]
The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies. The large incumbents follow suit, 5 years later, because they eventually see that the market has moved.
You don't persuade a business to do something by begging them to sell you something. You persuade them by buying that something from someone else who is quite happy to sell you that something. There are dozens
Parent
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:4, Insightful)
The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies.
Uhh, you're missing the entire point. Dell is well known and businesses trust them. If they start pushing out pre-installed Linux, others will trust them as well based on name recognition alone.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Absolutely! But there is something to be said about shouting louder than all the others when it comes to marketing - Dell has a megaphone here. I think Dell is already _persuaded_ though by their interest in rolling out a linux desktop:
Persuasion through HP purchases [businessweek.com]:
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:4, Interesting)
While factually correct I don't think either of these moves by Dell was anything approaching altruistic, let alone an honest effort to promote software written outside of Redmond. Did you ever try to navigate from Dell.com to one of these machines? Nigh on impossible. Also, once you do find one, did you also notice that the price was *higher* than if you had ordered the exact same machine with Windows? What is the motivation here for the customer? Also, as I recall, the only Linux distro ever offered by Dell was Redhat Enterprise, which is a very expensive distribution and it was only offered on their business line machines. Why not use something like CentOS (if it must be RH based) and pass the savings on to the customer? Or, better yet, use a totally free distribution and pass the savings on. Dell's "attempts" at selling no-OS/Free-OS machines was half-hearted at best; more than likely a public relations move to appease a certain software company concerned with anti-trust issues.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, that's one way to do it.
Another, possibly more successful way, is for Dell to find a few of the big Linux cheerleaders in Dell, have them incorporate a startup, e.g. Dell Linux, Inc., give them an exclusive license to use the Dell brand where it relates to Linux, and have a few
Re:"shouting" (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.asp
Parent