Helping Dell To Help Open Source

Glyn Moody writes "Dell's IdeaStorm is turning into a fiasco — for Dell, and for open source as well. Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it? Here's a suggestion that I've posted on the IdeaStorm site: that Dell set up an independent business unit for GNU/Linux systems, just like The Innovator's Dilemma tells us to do when faced with a disruptive technology."

Board of Directors

Unless they are independently thinking Directors, your suggestion, while very good, will not likely ever happen.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't..

The Linux community wants Dell to just start selling PCs with Linux preinstalled. Doesn't matter to the community if they can't find a distro that has support for all their hardware. Doesn't doesn't matter if Dell can't offer any support yet. Just put a bunch of distro choices in the "Operating System" box.

Dell, of course, doesn't want to start selling PCs with Linux preinstalled until they have found a suitable hardware configuration.. cut a deal with someone to outsource the support to.. etc, etc. As such, this means the Linux community has to wait and every day Dell doesn't just start selling the damn PCs is another day of flaming they will get.

Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't..

Support for new hardware in the Linux kernel is much faster than it used to be. Surely dell's lowend (read older) systems should work. Perhaps this might even encourage dell not to use substandard versions of common hardware. They won't have to add support for hardware if it has a normal PCI ID. I have a feeling the linux community would be even willing to help write drivers for their hardware.

Tech support is another story. Dell is trying to move everything to india and I don't think there are enough Linux fans in india to staff their helpdesk. I just can't imagine the typical workflow steps are going to work with a linux box right now.

The linux community needs PC vendors to ship systems. Why not focus on the second, third and forth vendors? For instance, say HP, Gateway and Lenovo are the next three vendors and they all ship boxes. Linux users will buy from them and dell's marketshare might drop forcing them to adopt linux. Of course I'm assuming there is a demand. In reality, we just need one vendor to adopt open source that is rather large. If they start moving machines, the other companies will hop on board.

Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't..

Support for new hardware in the Linux kernel is much faster than it used to be. Surely dell's lowend (read older) systems should work. Perhaps this might even encourage dell not to use substandard versions of common hardware. They won't have to add support for hardware if it has a normal PCI ID. I have a feeling the linux community would be even willing to help write drivers for their hardware. Tech support is another story. Dell is trying to move everything to india and I don't think there are enough Linux fans in india to staff their helpdesk. I just can't imagine the typical workflow steps are going to work with a linux box right now.

Now that was a useful post. It points out two important things the Linux community can do to help Dell get this project off the ground as quickly as possible:
1. Help with writing drivers for any Dell hardware that's too obscure to already have Linux drivers.
2. Help with generating a single comprehensive online knowledge base that outsourced tech support people could use when helping users with Linux problems.

Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't..

The Linux community may say that, but what use is preinstalled Linux to a Linux user?
By the time you are able to use Linux, you've surmounted the (many) inconvenient barriers to entry, already know how to install it to your preferences, and know how to pick hardware.
Entry-level users need massive handholding, something that does not make sense for Dell to offer.
Instead, just ask for the FreeDOS option. Your box will boot to "something" for test purposes, then you can nuke it and load your OS of choice.

Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't..

Well, the fact is that there are lots of suitable hardware configurations-- being such a large OEM, the Linux community actively seeks to support Dell machines already. Most Dells you buy will run Linux, so Dell would just have to check hardware support and make sure they aren't offering Linux with hardware that doesn't offer Linux support. That shouldn't take too long.

Support seems like a bigger problem. Sure, they could sell the machines without supporting them, but what's the sense in that? If you are willing to buy a Linux machine without any support, then surely you can buy a machine without an OS and install Linux yourself.

Personally, if I were Dell, I'd be looking into making their own Dell-Linux distribution. Sure, it would probably be Debian-based with a little rebranding, but the point is that they could have the software under their own control. They'd be able to optimize it for their own hardware and drop support for whatever they don't want to support, or whatever.

"shouting"

Example: Please put Linux on Dell hardware.
Other example: Dell sucks for not using linux !!1!eleventy!

Either way, its feedback, what did they expect?

Re:"shouting"

And it looks like that they are already selling workstations with Linux pre-installed:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd [dell.com]

You lost me on the first sentence

Clearly, there is a huge pent-up demand for pre-installed GNU/Linux systems from Dell.


Ummmm... no. That isn't clear at all. A few fan-boys does not sufficient demand make.

Don't get me wrong, I run Linux myself. I just don't think that there are enough people who care one way or the other to make it worth Dell's time.

Reality is hard and grainy. Sorry.

"Idea Storm"

Heh. More like Sh!t Storm. Or The Perfect Storm. Honestly, how did Dell not have a clue that there were loads of Linux using technophile out there that already had a beef against them and would jump at the chance to scold them publicly for any percieved slight? BTW- I'm a linux user myself so I think it's all a little funny. Poor Dell. Cry me a river.

What's the problem again?

My understanding of the situation so far is basically as follows:

Some people posted on Ideastorm that they'd like Dell to offer Linux pre-installed. Dell responded that they wern't quite ready to go that far yet but they would work toward making sure their hardware was Linux compatable so people could buy Dell with some confidence that it will work with their whatever flavor of Linux they want.

What exactly is wrong with that?

No offense...

No offense, but perhaps the problem here is that the numbers don't work out, not that the most sophisticated computer retailer in the world needs your condescending "help"?

In this case, one rather obvious objection is that Dell's name and reputation are tied to their subsidiary's performance, so they can't just jump into some half-baked new scheme to sell "GNU/Linux" systems.

Why Again?

Why do we want Linux on Dells again?

Linux is downloadable and easy to install. Or if bandwidth is a problem, you can get it on CDs for just the cost of shipping. So it seems to me all we really need is an option to buy a Dell without a pre-installed OS.

I have heard people say they want this for hardware compatibility reasons. Like if Linux came on a Dell, then all the hardware would be compatible. It seems to me though, the solution is not for Dell to use parts that Linux supports, but for Linux to support the parts that Dell is using (to any reasonable extend).

So the only reason you are left with for wanting Linux on Dells is so that the average consumer will see that they have alternatives to Windows. There will come a time where you will want your average computer user using Linux, but this is not that time. It isn't ready yet. For most things, something like Ubuntu works fine, but your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s, etc. Editing a bunch of configuration files and such is not an option. They want to click a few things and have everything work.

Linux is catching up to Windows and Microsoft is doing everything they can to sabotage themselves. Don't be impatient. If people try it now and have a horrible experience with it, it could be years (if at all) before they try it again.

Re:Why Again?

I have heard people say they want this for hardware compatibility reasons. Like if Linux came on a Dell, then all the hardware would be compatible. It seems to me though, the solution is not for Dell to use parts that Linux supports, but for Linux to support the parts that Dell is using (to any reasonable extend).

It already does. But you know full well that isn't the problem, because in your very next paragraph you go on to complain:

For most things, something like Ubuntu works fine, but your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s, etc. Editing a bunch of configuration files and such is not an option. They want to click a few things and have everything work.

Or have everything preinstalled, at which point it will just work without them having to click anything! That is the whole point of wanting preinstalled Linux: Dell could trivially arrange for the wireless card to be set up already; Dell could trivially arrange for MP3 and DVD playback to work out of the box (by the simple expedient of paying the license fees required to make it legal).

If the big problem facing Linux today is that it's too damn hard to get it working, then is it not blatantly obvious that the solution is to sell computers that are already properly configured?

Re:Why Again?

"Why do we want Linux on Dells again?"

To make Linux available to people who won't intall an OS. To increase the number of people using Linux. To improve hardware support. To break the Windows monopoly.

"...your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s"

This is the point of pre-installing. The wireless card is selected to work. MP3s and DVDs will play if the licensing is handled by Dell and built into the price of the PC. Just offering Linux compatible hardware is not enough. I wouldn't buy Dell for that, and most businesses wouldn't buy Linux Destop machines either.

"Editing a bunch of configuration files..."

Config files?! I'm not using config files for my e-mail, browser, office apps, multimedia, desktop environment, etc. For someone who tried Linux recently, you certainly have antiquated ideas of its current state.

Couple of big problems for Dell

1) They are preparing (hopefully) for support for whatever Linux distros are going to be made available. Not that anyone is going to call and actually *need* support for their Linux box, other then a defective hardware component. But the perception to them will be; "how do we support a non-Windows system?" A hardware *only* support structure would be just fine here, but their thinking too much in the box. [sic] "People *might* call with actually Linux config questions" and they'll not be ready to handle even a small amount of support in that space.

2) They have the 'n' series for the consumer channel, and for years they've had OSless systems available on the business side of things. The problem is the consumer side and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that Microsquat is climbing up their collective assen to "not support anything but Windows, or OSless boxen for consumers. Period."

I had another one, but I forget now. I'm installing my new Sun Ultra 25 desktop and really could care less about the Dell at this point. 8^) Woot!

The Easiest Way

The easiest way to promote open source software would be for Dell to install OpenOffice on all their systems. This would cost them very little--no new OS to certify, no hardware to test, plus it wouldn't eat into their "crapware subsidy".

But, this will greatly increase the market share of OO.o, and home users and small businesses would reap real benefits from using a real office suite, rather than MS-Works.

Perhaps other PC makers will follow, to "compete" with Dell on this "Free Office Suite," and _they_ might install it on their systems.

I started using open source software from Mozilla Browser and OpenOffice on Windows. I was able to switch to Linux not only because I have tried to wean myself off of MS formats, but because I invested myself into platform neutrality. Having OpenOffice installed by default would do more than anything to promote this kind of independence, even if the user never actually ends up using Linux. I think this helps the open source movement even more than having a linux-OS option, because once people invest with their data, it is hard to go back to some other closed format.

Sun seems to handle it

Sun will sell you a 900 dollar workstation with unix installed. Solaris of course. However, they will support that machine AND the os if you put a supported version of linux or Windows on it. Why can't dell do this? Because dell s.... and sells to people that enjoy commercials that use the word 'dude'.

Look At It From Dell's Perspective

Look at it from the typical corporate PHB mutual admiration/derision society perspective.

Firmware Engineering: Oh no! I've got HOW MANY new drivers to port? I need more money, more head count!

Q/A: Oh no! What's my schedule to test these new drivers? I need more money, more head count!

Product Management: Ugh! I have to SKU up these new products? Graphics design is going to have to give me new blah/blah/blah. What about all of our OEM software partners? They aren't linux compatible. We need new product managers that are Linux geniuses.

Software Dev: Wait none of our apps are Linux compatible. Need more head count. Need to hire linux experts to do this.

Marketing: We need to buy lots of market research! We need to hire linux market experts! We're doing so much already!

Manufacturing: You want what? You've got the wrong guy in your office. The server assembly manager is the guy you need to speak with. He does expensive-but-kind-of-free-Red-Hat, not me. Wait, you want Optiplex's and Dimensions to have Linux? It can't be done. I'm not set up for it. I need more people and more money to expand operations to accommodate your new-fangled production ideas.

Support: Our Indian support center doesn't have the scripts needed to support, wait you said MANY versions of Linux? No. No way. Too complicated.

Legal: We need to enter into a contract with these Linux people. Wait, many linux people? I thought there was only one Linux. Need more head count to manage these new contracts. We need to research if this conflicts with any agreements we already have. Need to hire legal consultants that are experts in Linux. Hmmm plus all this "free" software written for hippies hasn't been vetted by the courts.

Purchasing: Where do we buy this Linux from?

Sales: All right! Linux on Dell! Let's do it! Who's with me?!?

What you are asking for (lower priced, OS-free hardware they will support) they will not give you. Besides, you will force distro's into a winner/loser software monoculture of it's own making that is best avoided at all costs. This is where the little guy thrives. Hmm, let's see http://www.sub300.com/port.htm [sub300.com] or maybe www.linspire.com, or http://system76.com/ [system76.com]?

non-Windows O/S on Dell

Sun now has a Hardware Certification Test Suite (HCTS). You can download the suite, and run the exaustive test on your proposed hardware. You then send the results back to Sun, do some paperwork and you are allowed to sell that hardware configuration as "Solaris Ready". I can't see a reason Dell shouldn't do that since Sun and Microsoft buried the hatchet. I'd much rather have Solaris 10 with containers, Dtrace, the ZFS, etc. than Linux on my Dell machines anyway. In fact, I do.

http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/hcts/index.html [sun.com]

Why Dell when there is HP?

HP is about to unseat Dell has the big box manufacturing king. HP has worked in the past with hardware driver support and even the Debian distrobution. Why not ask HP to do what Dell can't or won't? I'm sure HP would love to take even more market share from Dell, and if they can get another customer they will. If you're a small business using Linux now is the time to leverage the new market share shift.

You like it when people use the word leverage. =p

You begin by defining Dell's market

Dell's IdeaStorm [CC] is turning into a fiasco -- for Dell, and for open source as well. Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it?

1 Dell sees real potential in "certified" Linux system sales to its larger business and institutional customers.

2 Unsatisfied, the BadVista fanatic spams Dell with adolescently argued posts demanding parity for OEM Linux in the general consumer market.

No matter that even Walmart has fled the field.

3 IdeaStorm collapses into chaos.

4 Dell goes back to selling the OEM Windows system as the mass-market PC of choice for the middle class.

5 The end.

insane on its face

dell is a huge company, renowned for its sales prowess, and they need HELP ?
this is insane on its face.

That you have to buy linux boxes from small companies no one has heard of instead of dell says that there is no market; when there is a market, dell will simply buy linux vendors, the way they bought alienware.

this is how the real non/. world works: small companies struggle to make a product in a niche market, and when the market gets big enought, the small company gets bought.

A more important thing to think about is why linux is such a disaster on the desktop. If could be linux has made the classic mistake of letting the competition - wintel - define the rules. It could be that linux is simply not a good fit for the desktop; not everything works for everything. It could be that the linux mindset is failing to recognize what is needed (drivers, fewer distros, less emphasis on cutting edge).
the classic definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing an expect diffrent results. linux has been doing the same thing for a while, with zilcho exceptance on the desktop.
Time to rethink the strategy

easy: respin an existing distro

they could even call it 'dellinux'

and control updates.

and control package sets.

they already have a bunch of linux stuff: http://linux.dell.com/ [dell.com] so why not just make the final step?

theres a ton of completely open source distros managed and maintained entirely by volunteers, so why couldnt a multinational like dell do the same?

Pricing differences

Anyone else do a side-by-side comparison of the dimension E520N (linux) and say the XPS 410 (windows).

One interesting thing I noticed is that the price for the monitors are different. $240 on the linux box vs. $180 on the windows... (for the standard 19 inch E197FP Analog Flat Panel that comes with each machine).

The other monitors listed also have price differences beyond just the $60 between these two.

i.e. The 24 inch UltraSharp(TM) 2407FPW Widescreen Digital Flat Panel is $710 for the windows box, $800 for the linux, and $629 if you order separately from the monitors page...

Things to consider before you order from dell :)

Decent Idea

This idea is a good one provided that this autonomous division is given ample exposure by Dell. The risk in this kind of business model is that there will be not enough media exposure or advertising and just die off. The success is also heavily dependent upon good leadership in a very fragmented market. Unfortunately, Linux is a fragmented market with consumers coming up with excellent arguments for and against the use of, say, Ubuntu versus others. If I had my two cents, I'd love to see Dell consider PC-BSD. [pcbsd.org] I have had an easier time installing PC-BSD. Realistically, how many distributions could one company support? By offering a choice of distributions that is too broad, more people would need to be hired, trained, and retained that have expertise in various Linux distributions. Linux experts do not come cheap and the extra cost would ultimately be passed on to the consumer through higher hardware prices for support and hardware. Therefore, the consumer seeking open source may pay more. This is unfortunate market economics in a David versus Goliath struggle. This is a type of dilemma that every business faces when introducing a new product. Dell may have faced this difficulty before, during the radical change from Windows 3.11 to 95.

Dell tried Linux before and it was unsuccessfull

I believe they still sell Linux for their servers but that is it.

I.T. does now want Linux besides in the computer room. I think Dell even offered Linux for some workstation but demand was not high.

Its not like they will support it for Dimension users. However making it linux compatible with drivers for linux in case the geeks want to dual boot or wipe Windows off it seems more doable but even that is expensive. It will add support costs and Dell does not like people opening up their boxes and doing things to them where it might cost htem money in support or hardware replacements in case it becomes broken by a (l)user.

Commercialize it

I can see it now, a new TV commercial with some really catchy techno music blaring and a closeup of this strange looking computer desktop flashing through different applications that the average user could relate to, while some hot chick quickly explains what you are looking at. Joe user will say to himself, what the heck is that? I gotta check that out! Pique the public's curiosity, and things might happen. The average person has no idea what Linux really is!

Based on Apple's position...

...an operating system is an operating system, and will be used to bolster a company's profit margin, not reduce the cost to the consumer.

This is a problem I made comments on in the past: people just don't get how an operating system can be 'free', companies take advantage of this. Until the consumer wises up, Linux is just a neat way for PC manufacturers to make more cash on each box sold.

Missing the entire point

This whole thing isn't about selling with Linux installed. It's about selling hardware without a selling a bundled, pre-installed OS at all. It's about offering choices to customers so they can buy what they want. It's about a computer manufacturer selling *computers* and not selling a license distribution system for content providers and software vendors.

dell

Sun will sell you a 900 dollar workstation with unix installed. Solaris of course. However, they will support that machine
AND the os if you put a supported version of linux or Windows on it. Why can't dell do this? Because dell s.... and
sells to people that enjoy commercials that use the word 'dude'.

ozgur uksal http://www.adobe.com/ [adobe.com]

Interesting Idea, but...

Pre-installing an open source OS on a computer doesn't disruptive innovation [wikipedia.org].

Just buy Penguin Computing

Or some other linux based vendor?

Here we all cry for choice and then rush to centralization upon one of two or three vendors that supply the world.

What happened to the spirit of the open source movement? Of the multiple choice go-have-at-it crowd?

Prove linux works for hardware vendors (other than IBM which is more software these days anyhow) and Dell will come around.

A simple No Windows option

would be sufficient for me. I don't like the 'Windows tied selling', which is kinda illegal in many states anyway.

They effectively already do this

Your solution isn't radically different than what Dell does now which is sell Linux configurations which are marginally different than nearly equivalent Windows models, except at a much higher price. I don't want to pay more for a Dell computer with no OS or Linux, I want to pay less. If Dell can't offer me a 'no OS' machine for a lower price than the same machine with Windows, I will continue to do what I do now; buy the parts from Newegg or my local computer shop and put them together myself. An independent Dell business unit that sold Linux boxes for a higher price than the Windows version would fail for the same reason that Dell doesn't make many Linux sales now. It would be cheaper to buy the Windows version of the box from 'real' Dell, and throw Windows away. It doesn't help the customer, so it won't help Dell either.

Linux Would Sell, If It Got Attention

I know many consumers out there who hate something about Windows, be it the cost, the crashing, or the underhanded business tactics of Microsoft. It's not just geeks, there are many in the main stream, the "normal Windows users", who are tired of Microsoft. If you offered Ubuntu or another very user-friendly Linux distro, and showed them what they would get, showed them the comparison between the two OSes, and that it would be cheaper, MUCH cheaper when you include everything you get, and much easier, or that they could have both on the same machine so they can choose, I think you'd see LOTS of people jumping onto the Linux bandwagon. Most people are in complete shock when they hear there is a free alternative to Windows. Dell could help turn the tide, and Microsoft knows it. I will be very surprised if Dell actually uses any of the pro-Linux ideas from the Ideastorm site. Dell will only anger the giant if they feel that is the way the industry is headed, that the giant is falling, basically only if it was a smart business decision and one that would bring money. It'd help lots of people learn that there is an alternative, and I think you'd see widespread Linux adoption. That's not how it is *now* though, so I think that unfortunately at first it wouldn't increase sales, it would decrease them, because I'm relatively sure M$ pays them to offer Windows, and advertise it all over their site. It's a catch22, so there needs to be more pressure and adoption by Linux first. People need to spread the word further that there is an alternative which can fulfill many of their needs. Until word of mouth spreads Linux much further, I doubt you will see any big vendors ungluing themselves from Microsoft's grip.

Start a Team OS/2, er Team Linux

that always works with Dell

Sorry - Normal people can't handle it .......

it of course is YAFC ( Yet Another Fucking Choice ) ---- "Normal People" who lead a "normal" life doing non-technology jobs and who are causual technology users are already baffled and overwhelmed by XP let alone Vista or Linux (comes in 32 flavors ! mmmmm ---mmmmm). Go ahead strike up a casual conversation with any real non-techie about Linux --- its a real hoot !! It begins to feel as if you're a perv or something as they stare with glassy eyes .....

  So I have a real hard time thinking Dell will market to the general Joe/Jane --- let alone Dell dropping several hundred thousand $$$ to staff-up - gear up - to crank out Linux boxes without a real market target target. Now one market I can think of (as I do tech-support at a high school) is both K12 and higher ed .....

Of course for that to really happen - many of the educational programs either need to get ported to Linux or run verywell under some kind of emulation that doesn't require a MS-$ license.

As to buying a box - preloaded - no I don't think so ---- now if I could buy a box (laptop) certified to work with distros A -B - C ------- That I could go with

Another angle on whole matter

Q1 : Why do we want Dell selling preinstalled Linux PC's and where is his target market ?

A1. we want to see wide Linux adoption
A2. we are just tired to put together our own Linux compatible computers
A3. we are tired of checking for hardware compatibility for laptops
A4. only Dell or some other powerful PC vendor like IBM/Lenovo could make some pressure on the hardware manufacturers to make Linux drivers or give specifications which on the end could make a better hardware support

Q2 : Why Dell doesn't want to help us ?

A1. They are struggling on their market already with win based PC and investment wouldn't return much money (in the beginning)
A2. there isn't very large demand for Dells computers with Linux preinstalled no matter what happened on Idea storm
A3. Windows dell deal / partnership (not really sure about this being an obstacle)
A4. Dell doesn't recognize benefits of Linux software or potential killer apps(they are wrong but probably what they think)
A5. additional Linux support team(at least that's the way they see things) you need specific Linux distribution experts
A6. when you are launching new product you need right people to hear about your product and why is this product good 4. So there is also a problem with cost of marketing.
A7. driver problems and proper support for hardware (they could write their own drivers which cost $,wait for the community to make drivers (time+good hardware specifications))

Q3:What could Dell do about this demand?

A1: Try to convince hardware vendors to give specifications for hardware to community or make drivers even though
A2: Start selling PC's without anything preinstalled in the beginning.
A3: Accept Linux compatible lable and put it on their PC's with no OS preinstalled this is very important step!!

Q4:What could community do to change things 4 Dell

A1: A lot! One of the most important things is making the label from Q3:A3 !!!
A2: Give your laptops to your wives sisters / colleges and judge by their responses and make things work for them.
A3: Make Beryl stable enough to get free advertising from the beginning of Linux deployment.
A4: Make Linux more useful
A5: Listen to the early adopters and their needs not just wait to get over the learning curve like we did.Not just be happy to know more then others on some matters. Help them with proper GUI (xorg.conf gui editor 4 example)
A6: Don't give new users RTMF (that's really not good) but help them
A7: Establish a list of Distributions in given time that have large user base who could make Q4:A1 possible
A8: Make package managers more beautiful - just like CNR on Linspire !!
A9: Distributions should have well preconfigured apps to run on the system and should be self explanatory(so that early adopters don't need to read manuals too much)
A10: Good GUI look and functionality is extremely important in apps and on desktop systems eye candy,eye candy,eye candy even though it's not particularity useful and sometimes takes too much time!!
A11: Linux community itself doesn't see the power in their hands yet that's the biggest problem.If all people using Linux web servers would put a commercial on their homepage advertising Linux/Linux Desktop on a particular day in the year in thanks to the Linux community I'm sure people would know about Linux and demand for Linux desktops would grow rapidly.


This is just my point of view. Please change me where I'm wrong

Not our problem

Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it?

I'm not sure that's a good use of our time. Honestly, why do we care if Dell pre-installs Linux? I'd settle for being able to buy hardware configured with the components I want and no operating system. If I'm installing Linux I don't want Dell doing it for me anyway. I want my my distro setup my way.

With all the activation hoops and anal probe WGA, MSFT can no longer use the excuse that shipping bare machines encourages piracy.

It's also possible it doesn't matter at this point. The exodus to Mac and Linux appears to be well underway without Dell's support. Businesses and schools are leading the way by experimenting with Linux to extend the life of older machines instead of incurring the expense to run Vista. That trend may be all it takes to force Dell to accommodate them when they're ready to upgrade their hardware.

Dell's Official Reply

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/ide astorm/ideasinaction?c=us&l=en&s=gen [dell.com]

Linux Options
It's exciting to see the IdeaStorm community's interest in open source solutions like Linux and OpenOffice. Your feedback has been all about flexibility and we have seen a consistent request to provide platforms that allow people to install their operating system of choice. We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. This is another step towards ensuring that our customers have a good experience with Linux on our systems.

As this community knows, there is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux. In the last week, the IdeaStorm community suggested more than half a dozen distributions. We don't want to pick one distribution and alienate users with a preference for another. We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line. We are continuing to investigate your other Linux-related ideas, so please continue to check here for updates.

To read about the recent addition of Latitude notebooks to our n-series family, read Direct2Dell from one of Dell's Linux solution architects, or visit http://www.dell.com/linux [dell.com] and http://www.dell.com/nseries [dell.com].

Re:Why does it have to be Dell?

It doesn't have to be Dell, but having the support of perhaps the largest consumer PC vendor is a plus.

Re:Why does it have to be Dell?

Why does it have to be Dell?

Because, "Dude, you've got a Dell!"

The simple fact of the matter is that EfficientPC is some no-name company that no one trusts. For whatever reason, at least here in the US, Dell is seen as a good name brand computer. People won't put faith in something delivered by a company that insists on a horrible color scheme and poor web design.

Dell is a big name in the PC business and by having them push out pre-installed Linux machines it shows the rest of the industry (aside from the ever so unsightly EfficientPCs) that it should also hop on the bandwagon. I just wish the Linux userbase wasn't such a bunch of self-absorbed fuckers when it comes to accepting new people or companies.

Re:Why does it have to be Dell?

The simple fact of the matter is that EfficientPC is some no-name company that no one trusts. For whatever reason, at least here in the US, Dell is seen as a good name brand computer. People won't put faith in something delivered by a company that insists on a horrible color scheme and poor web design.

Just happened to be the 1st one that appeared in Google. There are loads of companies selling Linux based systems.

more:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/ [lxer.com]
http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html [linux.org]

Dell is a big name in the PC business and by having them push out pre-installed Linux machines it shows the rest of the industry (aside from the ever so unsightly EfficientPCs) that it should also hop on the bandwagon. I just wish the Linux userbase wasn't such a bunch of self-absorbed fuckers when it comes to accepting new people or companies.

Said the guy who's so concerned by name and brand.

The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies. The large incumbents follow suit, 5 years later, because they eventually see that the market has moved.

You don't persuade a business to do something by begging them to sell you something. You persuade them by buying that something from someone else who is quite happy to sell you that something. There are dozens ... hundreds of companies who'd love to sell you a pre-installed, pre-configured Linux system, very competitively priced. Who else do you think "the industry" is?
 

Re:Why does it have to be Dell?

I'm not concerned with brand-name anything. Businesses are.

The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies.

Uhh, you're missing the entire point. Dell is well known and businesses trust them. If they start pushing out pre-installed Linux, others will trust them as well based on name recognition alone.

Re:Why does it have to be Dell?

"Dell offers FreeDOS on at least some machines, they have offered Linux in the past. No one jumped on any bandwagon behind either OS."

While factually correct I don't think either of these moves by Dell was anything approaching altruistic, let alone an honest effort to promote software written outside of Redmond. Did you ever try to navigate from Dell.com to one of these machines? Nigh on impossible. Also, once you do find one, did you also notice that the price was *higher* than if you had ordered the exact same machine with Windows? What is the motivation here for the customer? Also, as I recall, the only Linux distro ever offered by Dell was Redhat Enterprise, which is a very expensive distribution and it was only offered on their business line machines. Why not use something like CentOS (if it must be RH based) and pass the savings on to the customer? Or, better yet, use a totally free distribution and pass the savings on. Dell's "attempts" at selling no-OS/Free-OS machines was half-hearted at best; more than likely a public relations move to appease a certain software company concerned with anti-trust issues.

Re:Not Very Well Thought Out

This would no longer be "Dell" in any significant way... What problem does that solve for Dell?

The problem of Billy Boy getting pissed and retaliating!

Re:Not Very Well Thought Out

This would no longer be "Dell" in any significant way. It'd be a beige-box vendor specializing in Linux systems. Doesn't that exist? What problem does that solve for Dell? What problem does that solve for Dell's customers?

Well, that's one way to do it.

Another, possibly more successful way, is for Dell to find a few of the big Linux cheerleaders in Dell, have them incorporate a startup, e.g. Dell Linux, Inc., give them an exclusive license to use the Dell brand where it relates to Linux, and have a few directors from Dell, other companies sit on its advisory board. Also $3M seed money. Dell retains 51% ownership, allocates the remaining 49% to the founders.

Dell Linux, Inc. runs exactly like a startup with a handful of people. EVERY order is important. Tech support can be escalated to the founders. They feel out the landscape and explore the marketplace. If they earn $1M in their first year, for Dell that's negligible, but for Dell Linux, Inc. that's an enormous success.

6 years from now if Linux is a major cash cow and Dell Linux, Inc. is earning $500M a year