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Helping Dell To Help Open Source
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Mar 06, 2007 04:34 PM
from the skunkworks dept.
from the skunkworks dept.
Glyn Moody writes "Dell's IdeaStorm is turning into a fiasco — for Dell, and for open source as well. Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it? Here's a suggestion that I've posted on the IdeaStorm site: that Dell set up an independent business unit for GNU/Linux systems, just like The Innovator's Dilemma tells us to do when faced with a disruptive technology."
Related Stories
[+]
Pre-Installed Linux Tops Dell Customer Requests 509 comments
dhart writes "Within only a few days of Dell opening a new customer feedback website, they discovered that the feature most requested (by an almost 2-to-1 margin!) is an option on all new Dell PCs: pre-installed Linux. (And the number 3 request is pre-installed Open Office.) I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'"
[+]
Pre-Installed Linux On Dells Coming 340 comments
When Michael Dell took back the reins of he company he founded, one of the first things he did was to launch the feedback site Dell Idea Storm. Following up on the recent Slashdot discussion of the early results of this experiment — an overwhelming expressed desire for pre-loaded Linux — Dell reports on what it plans to do with this feedback. Quoting: "[W]e are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. [On the question of which distro to choose:] "[T]here is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux... We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line."
[+]
Your Rights Online: Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent 228 comments
thefickler writes "It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Dell is doing with its IdeaStorm website, which the company set up to solicit such ideas and feedback. Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue."
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Helping Dell To Help Open Source
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Board of Directors (Score:2)
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://rtfm.insomnia.org/~qg/ | Last Journal: Wednesday November 16 2005, @07:11AM)
Dell, of course, doesn't want to start selling PCs with Linux preinstalled until they have found a suitable hardware configuration.. cut a deal with someone to outsource the support to.. etc, etc. As such, this means the Linux community has to wait and every day Dell doesn't just start selling the damn PCs is another day of flaming they will get.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.justjournal.com/)
Tech support is another story. Dell is trying to move everything to india and I don't think there are enough Linux fans in india to staff their helpdesk. I just can't imagine the typical workflow steps are going to work with a linux box right now.
The linux community needs PC vendors to ship systems. Why not focus on the second, third and forth vendors? For instance, say HP, Gateway and Lenovo are the next three vendors and they all ship boxes. Linux users will buy from them and dell's marketshare might drop forcing them to adopt linux. Of course I'm assuming there is a demand. In reality, we just need one vendor to adopt open source that is rather large. If they start moving machines, the other companies will hop on board.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://qstuff.blogspot.com/)
Now that was a useful post. It points out two important things the Linux community can do to help Dell get this project off the ground as quickly as possible:
1. Help with writing drivers for any Dell hardware that's too obscure to already have Linux drivers.
2. Help with generating a single comprehensive online knowledge base that outsourced tech support people could use when helping users with Linux problems.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:4, Informative)
By the time you are able to use Linux, you've surmounted the (many) inconvenient barriers to entry, already know how to install it to your preferences, and know how to pick hardware.
Entry-level users need massive handholding, something that does not make sense for Dell to offer.
Instead, just ask for the FreeDOS option. Your box will boot to "something" for test purposes, then you can nuke it and load your OS of choice.
Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.nine-times.org/)
Well, the fact is that there are lots of suitable hardware configurations-- being such a large OEM, the Linux community actively seeks to support Dell machines already. Most Dells you buy will run Linux, so Dell would just have to check hardware support and make sure they aren't offering Linux with hardware that doesn't offer Linux support. That shouldn't take too long.
Support seems like a bigger problem. Sure, they could sell the machines without supporting them, but what's the sense in that? If you are willing to buy a Linux machine without any support, then surely you can buy a machine without an OS and install Linux yourself.
Personally, if I were Dell, I'd be looking into making their own Dell-Linux distribution. Sure, it would probably be Debian-based with a little rebranding, but the point is that they could have the software under their own control. They'd be able to optimize it for their own hardware and drop support for whatever they don't want to support, or whatever.
"shouting" (Score:1)
Other example: Dell sucks for not using linux !!1!eleventy!
Either way, its feedback, what did they expect?
Re:"shouting" (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.asp
You lost me on the first sentence (Score:3, Insightful)
Clearly, there is a huge pent-up demand for pre-installed GNU/Linux systems from Dell.
Ummmm... no. That isn't clear at all. A few fan-boys does not sufficient demand make.
Don't get me wrong, I run Linux myself. I just don't think that there are enough people who care one way or the other to make it worth Dell's time.
Reality is hard and grainy. Sorry.
"Idea Storm" (Score:2, Funny)
What's the problem again? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people posted on Ideastorm that they'd like Dell to offer Linux pre-installed. Dell responded that they wern't quite ready to go that far yet but they would work toward making sure their hardware was Linux compatable so people could buy Dell with some confidence that it will work with their whatever flavor of Linux they want.
What exactly is wrong with that?
No offense... (Score:2)
(Last Journal: Thursday November 08, @06:00PM)
In this case, one rather obvious objection is that Dell's name and reputation are tied to their subsidiary's performance, so they can't just jump into some half-baked new scheme to sell "GNU/Linux" systems.
Why Again? (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.ronpaul2008.com/)
Linux is downloadable and easy to install. Or if bandwidth is a problem, you can get it on CDs for just the cost of shipping. So it seems to me all we really need is an option to buy a Dell without a pre-installed OS.
I have heard people say they want this for hardware compatibility reasons. Like if Linux came on a Dell, then all the hardware would be compatible. It seems to me though, the solution is not for Dell to use parts that Linux supports, but for Linux to support the parts that Dell is using (to any reasonable extend).
So the only reason you are left with for wanting Linux on Dells is so that the average consumer will see that they have alternatives to Windows. There will come a time where you will want your average computer user using Linux, but this is not that time. It isn't ready yet. For most things, something like Ubuntu works fine, but your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s, etc. Editing a bunch of configuration files and such is not an option. They want to click a few things and have everything work.
Linux is catching up to Windows and Microsoft is doing everything they can to sabotage themselves. Don't be impatient. If people try it now and have a horrible experience with it, it could be years (if at all) before they try it again.
Re:Why Again? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.haeleth.net/)
If the big problem facing Linux today is that it's too damn hard to get it working, then is it not blatantly obvious that the solution is to sell computers that are already properly configured?
Re:Why Again? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://translate.goo...%7Ces&u=slashdot.org)
To make Linux available to people who won't intall an OS. To increase the number of people using Linux. To improve hardware support. To break the Windows monopoly.
"...your average person isn't going to know what to do if their wireless card isn't working, or if they don't have support for MP3s"
This is the point of pre-installing. The wireless card is selected to work. MP3s and DVDs will play if the licensing is handled by Dell and built into the price of the PC. Just offering Linux compatible hardware is not enough. I wouldn't buy Dell for that, and most businesses wouldn't buy Linux Destop machines either.
"Editing a bunch of configuration files..."
Config files?! I'm not using config files for my e-mail, browser, office apps, multimedia, desktop environment, etc. For someone who tried Linux recently, you certainly have antiquated ideas of its current state.
Couple of big problems for Dell (Score:1)
(http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City)
2) They have the 'n' series for the consumer channel, and for years they've had OSless systems available on the business side of things. The problem is the consumer side and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that Microsquat is climbing up their collective assen to "not support anything but Windows, or OSless boxen for consumers. Period."
I had another one, but I forget now. I'm installing my new Sun Ultra 25 desktop and really could care less about the Dell at this point. 8^) Woot!
The Easiest Way (Score:5, Insightful)
But, this will greatly increase the market share of OO.o, and home users and small businesses would reap real benefits from using a real office suite, rather than MS-Works.
Perhaps other PC makers will follow, to "compete" with Dell on this "Free Office Suite," and _they_ might install it on their systems.
I started using open source software from Mozilla Browser and OpenOffice on Windows. I was able to switch to Linux not only because I have tried to wean myself off of MS formats, but because I invested myself into platform neutrality. Having OpenOffice installed by default would do more than anything to promote this kind of independence, even if the user never actually ends up using Linux. I think this helps the open source movement even more than having a linux-OS option, because once people invest with their data, it is hard to go back to some other closed format.
Sun seems to handle it (Score:2, Interesting)
Look At It From Dell's Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.friendwich.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday November 09 2006, @12:05PM)
Firmware Engineering: Oh no! I've got HOW MANY new drivers to port? I need more money, more head count!
Q/A: Oh no! What's my schedule to test these new drivers? I need more money, more head count!
Product Management: Ugh! I have to SKU up these new products? Graphics design is going to have to give me new blah/blah/blah. What about all of our OEM software partners? They aren't linux compatible. We need new product managers that are Linux geniuses.
Software Dev: Wait none of our apps are Linux compatible. Need more head count. Need to hire linux experts to do this.
Marketing: We need to buy lots of market research! We need to hire linux market experts! We're doing so much already!
Manufacturing: You want what? You've got the wrong guy in your office. The server assembly manager is the guy you need to speak with. He does expensive-but-kind-of-free-Red-Hat, not me. Wait, you want Optiplex's and Dimensions to have Linux? It can't be done. I'm not set up for it. I need more people and more money to expand operations to accommodate your new-fangled production ideas.
Support: Our Indian support center doesn't have the scripts needed to support, wait you said MANY versions of Linux? No. No way. Too complicated.
Legal: We need to enter into a contract with these Linux people. Wait, many linux people? I thought there was only one Linux. Need more head count to manage these new contracts. We need to research if this conflicts with any agreements we already have. Need to hire legal consultants that are experts in Linux. Hmmm plus all this "free" software written for hippies hasn't been vetted by the courts.
Purchasing: Where do we buy this Linux from?
Sales: All right! Linux on Dell! Let's do it! Who's with me?!?
What you are asking for (lower priced, OS-free hardware they will support) they will not give you. Besides, you will force distro's into a winner/loser software monoculture of it's own making that is best avoided at all costs. This is where the little guy thrives. Hmm, let's see http://www.sub300.com/port.htm [sub300.com] or maybe www.linspire.com, or http://system76.com/ [system76.com]?
non-Windows O/S on Dell (Score:1)
http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/hcts/index.html [sun.com]
Why Dell when there is HP? (Score:2)
(http://icculus.org/~mongoose/)
You like it when people use the word leverage. =p
You begin by defining Dell's market (Score:2)
1 Dell sees real potential in "certified" Linux system sales to its larger business and institutional customers.
2 Unsatisfied, the BadVista fanatic spams Dell with adolescently argued posts demanding parity for OEM Linux in the general consumer market.
No matter that even Walmart has fled the field.
3 IdeaStorm collapses into chaos.
4 Dell goes back to selling the OEM Windows system as the mass-market PC of choice for the middle class.
5 The end.
insane on its face (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Sunday October 28, @11:25AM)
this is insane on its face.
That you have to buy linux boxes from small companies no one has heard of instead of dell says that there is no market; when there is a market, dell will simply buy linux vendors, the way they bought alienware.
this is how the real non/. world works: small companies struggle to make a product in a niche market, and when the market gets big enought, the small company gets bought.
A more important thing to think about is why linux is such a disaster on the desktop. If could be linux has made the classic mistake of letting the competition - wintel - define the rules. It could be that linux is simply not a good fit for the desktop; not everything works for everything. It could be that the linux mindset is failing to recognize what is needed (drivers, fewer distros, less emphasis on cutting edge).
the classic definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing an expect diffrent results. linux has been doing the same thing for a while, with zilcho exceptance on the desktop.
Time to rethink the strategy
easy: respin an existing distro (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://127.0.0.1/ | Last Journal: Thursday September 30 2004, @07:10AM)
and control updates.
and control package sets.
they already have a bunch of linux stuff: http://linux.dell.com/ [dell.com] so why not just make the final step?
theres a ton of completely open source distros managed and maintained entirely by volunteers, so why couldnt a multinational like dell do the same?
Pricing differences (Score:2, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Wednesday February 25 2004, @05:36PM)
One interesting thing I noticed is that the price for the monitors are different. $240 on the linux box vs. $180 on the windows... (for the standard 19 inch E197FP Analog Flat Panel that comes with each machine).
The other monitors listed also have price differences beyond just the $60 between these two.
i.e. The 24 inch UltraSharp(TM) 2407FPW Widescreen Digital Flat Panel is $710 for the windows box, $800 for the linux, and $629 if you order separately from the monitors page...
Things to consider before you order from dell
Decent Idea (Score:2)
Dell tried Linux before and it was unsuccessfull (Score:2)
(http://www.livejournal.com/users/sinistertim101 | Last Journal: Saturday March 24 2007, @12:32PM)
I.T. does now want Linux besides in the computer room. I think Dell even offered Linux for some workstation but demand was not high.
Its not like they will support it for Dimension users. However making it linux compatible with drivers for linux in case the geeks want to dual boot or wipe Windows off it seems more doable but even that is expensive. It will add support costs and Dell does not like people opening up their boxes and doing things to them where it might cost htem money in support or hardware replacements in case it becomes broken by a (l)user.
Commercialize it (Score:1)
Based on Apple's position... (Score:2)
This is a problem I made comments on in the past: people just don't get how an operating system can be 'free', companies take advantage of this. Until the consumer wises up, Linux is just a neat way for PC manufacturers to make more cash on each box sold.
Missing the entire point (Score:2)
(http://www.indyassociates.com/)
dell (Score:1, Interesting)
AND the os if you put a supported version of linux or Windows on it. Why can't dell do this? Because dell s.... and
sells to people that enjoy commercials that use the word 'dude'.
ozgur uksal http://www.adobe.com/ [adobe.com]
Interesting Idea, but... (Score:2)
Just buy Penguin Computing (Score:1)
Here we all cry for choice and then rush to centralization upon one of two or three vendors that supply the world.
What happened to the spirit of the open source movement? Of the multiple choice go-have-at-it crowd?
Prove linux works for hardware vendors (other than IBM which is more software these days anyhow) and Dell will come around.
A simple No Windows option (Score:2)
They effectively already do this (Score:2)
Linux Would Sell, If It Got Attention (Score:1)
Start a Team OS/2, er Team Linux (Score:1)
(Last Journal: Thursday July 22 2004, @11:14AM)
Sorry - Normal people can't handle it ....... (Score:1)
So I have a real hard time thinking Dell will market to the general Joe/Jane --- let alone Dell dropping several hundred thousand $$$ to staff-up - gear up - to crank out Linux boxes without a real market target target. Now one market I can think of (as I do tech-support at a high school) is both K12 and higher ed
Of course for that to really happen - many of the educational programs either need to get ported to Linux or run verywell under some kind of emulation that doesn't require a MS-$ license.
As to buying a box - preloaded - no I don't think so ---- now if I could buy a box (laptop) certified to work with distros A -B - C ------- That I could go with
Another angle on whole matter (Score:2, Insightful)
(http://pg302.sourceforge.net/)
A1. we want to see wide Linux adoption
A2. we are just tired to put together our own Linux compatible computers
A3. we are tired of checking for hardware compatibility for laptops
A4. only Dell or some other powerful PC vendor like IBM/Lenovo could make some pressure on the hardware manufacturers to make Linux drivers or give specifications which on the end could make a better hardware support
Q2 : Why Dell doesn't want to help us ?
A1. They are struggling on their market already with win based PC and investment wouldn't return much money (in the beginning)
A2. there isn't very large demand for Dells computers with Linux preinstalled no matter what happened on Idea storm
A3. Windows dell deal / partnership (not really sure about this being an obstacle)
A4. Dell doesn't recognize benefits of Linux software or potential killer apps(they are wrong but probably what they think)
A5. additional Linux support team(at least that's the way they see things) you need specific Linux distribution experts
A6. when you are launching new product you need right people to hear about your product and why is this product good 4. So there is also a problem with cost of marketing.
A7. driver problems and proper support for hardware (they could write their own drivers which cost $,wait for the community to make drivers (time+good hardware specifications))
Q3:What could Dell do about this demand?
A1: Try to convince hardware vendors to give specifications for hardware to community or make drivers even though
A2: Start selling PC's without anything preinstalled in the beginning.
A3: Accept Linux compatible lable and put it on their PC's with no OS preinstalled this is very important step!!
Q4:What could community do to change things 4 Dell
A1: A lot! One of the most important things is making the label from Q3:A3 !!!
A2: Give your laptops to your wives sisters / colleges and judge by their responses and make things work for them.
A3: Make Beryl stable enough to get free advertising from the beginning of Linux deployment.
A4: Make Linux more useful
A5: Listen to the early adopters and their needs not just wait to get over the learning curve like we did.Not just be happy to know more then others on some matters. Help them with proper GUI (xorg.conf gui editor 4 example)
A6: Don't give new users RTMF (that's really not good) but help them
A7: Establish a list of Distributions in given time that have large user base who could make Q4:A1 possible
A8: Make package managers more beautiful - just like CNR on Linspire !!
A9: Distributions should have well preconfigured apps to run on the system and should be self explanatory(so that early adopters don't need to read manuals too much)
A10: Good GUI look and functionality is extremely important in apps and on desktop systems eye candy,eye candy,eye candy even though it's not particularity useful and sometimes takes too much time!!
A11: Linux community itself doesn't see the power in their hands yet that's the biggest problem.If all people using Linux web servers would put a commercial on their homepage advertising Linux/Linux Desktop on a particular day in the year in thanks to the Linux community I'm sure people would know about Linux and demand for Linux desktops would grow rapidly.
This is just my point of view. Please change me where I'm wrong
Not our problem (Score:2)
(http://www.dangercollie.com/music/)
Instead of just shouting at the company to sell pre-installed GNU/Linux systems, how about helping them find a way to do it?
I'm not sure that's a good use of our time. Honestly, why do we care if Dell pre-installs Linux? I'd settle for being able to buy hardware configured with the components I want and no operating system. If I'm installing Linux I don't want Dell doing it for me anyway. I want my my distro setup my way.
With all the activation hoops and anal probe WGA, MSFT can no longer use the excuse that shipping bare machines encourages piracy.
It's also possible it doesn't matter at this point. The exodus to Mac and Linux appears to be well underway without Dell's support. Businesses and schools are leading the way by experimenting with Linux to extend the life of older machines instead of incurring the expense to run Vista. That trend may be all it takes to force Dell to accommodate them when they're ready to upgrade their hardware.
Dell's Official Reply (Score:1)
Linux Options
It's exciting to see the IdeaStorm community's interest in open source solutions like Linux and OpenOffice. Your feedback has been all about flexibility and we have seen a consistent request to provide platforms that allow people to install their operating system of choice. We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. This is another step towards ensuring that our customers have a good experience with Linux on our systems.
As this community knows, there is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux. In the last week, the IdeaStorm community suggested more than half a dozen distributions. We don't want to pick one distribution and alienate users with a preference for another. We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line. We are continuing to investigate your other Linux-related ideas, so please continue to check here for updates.
To read about the recent addition of Latitude notebooks to our n-series family, read Direct2Dell from one of Dell's Linux solution architects, or visit http://www.dell.com/linux [dell.com] and http://www.dell.com/nseries [dell.com].
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.lazylightning.org/)
Because, "Dude, you've got a Dell!"
The simple fact of the matter is that EfficientPC is some no-name company that no one trusts. For whatever reason, at least here in the US, Dell is seen as a good name brand computer. People won't put faith in something delivered by a company that insists on a horrible color scheme and poor web design.
Dell is a big name in the PC business and by having them push out pre-installed Linux machines it shows the rest of the industry (aside from the ever so unsightly EfficientPCs) that it should also hop on the bandwagon. I just wish the Linux userbase wasn't such a bunch of self-absorbed fuckers when it comes to accepting new people or companies.
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
more:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/ [lxer.com]
http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html [linux.org]
The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies. The large incumbents follow suit, 5 years later, because they eventually see that the market has moved.
You don't persuade a business to do something by begging them to sell you something. You persuade them by buying that something from someone else who is quite happy to sell you that something. There are dozens
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.lazylightning.org/)
The irony is that you have it backwards, it's the small companies who fill the niches, take away business from the large ones because they provide services that people are willing to pay for, they grow into medium sized companies.
Uhh, you're missing the entire point. Dell is well known and businesses trust them. If they start pushing out pre-installed Linux, others will trust them as well based on name recognition alone.
Re:Why does it have to be Dell? (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.pagewash.com/)
While factually correct I don't think either of these moves by Dell was anything approaching altruistic, let alone an honest effort to promote software written outside of Redmond. Did you ever try to navigate from Dell.com to one of these machines? Nigh on impossible. Also, once you do find one, did you also notice that the price was *higher* than if you had ordered the exact same machine with Windows? What is the motivation here for the customer? Also, as I recall, the only Linux distro ever offered by Dell was Redhat Enterprise, which is a very expensive distribution and it was only offered on their business line machines. Why not use something like CentOS (if it must be RH based) and pass the savings on to the customer? Or, better yet, use a totally free distribution and pass the savings on. Dell's "attempts" at selling no-OS/Free-OS machines was half-hearted at best; more than likely a public relations move to appease a certain software company concerned with anti-trust issues.
Re:Not Very Well Thought Out (Score:2)
The problem of Billy Boy getting pissed and retaliating!
Re:Not Very Well Thought Out (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://michael.bacarella.com/ | Last Journal: Friday November 01 2002, @06:19PM)
Well, that's one way to do it.
Another, possibly more successful way, is for Dell to find a few of the big Linux cheerleaders in Dell, have them incorporate a startup, e.g. Dell Linux, Inc., give them an exclusive license to use the Dell brand where it relates to Linux, and have a few directors from Dell, other companies sit on its advisory board. Also $3M seed money. Dell retains 51% ownership, allocates the remaining 49% to the founders.
Dell Linux, Inc. runs exactly like a startup with a handful of people. EVERY order is important. Tech support can be escalated to the founders. They feel out the landscape and explore the marketplace. If they earn $1M in their first year, for Dell that's negligible, but for Dell Linux, Inc. that's an enormous success.
6 years from now if Linux is a major cash cow and Dell Linux, Inc. is earning $500M a year