30 Days With Ubuntu Linux

jkwdoc writes "Vexed by Vista's hardware requirements and product activation issues, many have claimed on various boards that they plan to 'switch to Linux.' [H] Consumer spent 30 days using nothing but Ubuntu Linux to find out if this is truly a viable alternative for the consumer. Linux has indeed become much more than the 'Programmer's OS.'"

Misguided or simply lazy

From the article: But what about power users, such as the typical audience of HardOCP - those who know how to build their own computers, but not compile their own programs?

IMHO, anyone who wants all the control of building your own computer, reads a website which has overclocking in the name and thinks Linux/FreeBSD/Open Source is either misguided about the benifits of Linux or is just lazy. Putting your own computer together these days with all the options, choices to make, etc. is getting harder than it was 10 years ago. Meanwhile, Linux has been getting easier. So I don't see where the challenge is for these people.

It is nice to see that non-Linux people are continuing to give Linux a try. Most things in the world only get one chance and then its over.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Even if you just want a dirt cheap PC you can still usually build one for cheaper than what Dell does. The main thing you get with Dell is: support, and a single stop for your warranty. Most people who read Slashdot are without need of the very basic support Dell can offer (good for the clueless, but overall their support guys know less than most technophiles). The warranty is nice, but even building your own you usually have a warranty on all the components, you just have to do more work (contacting individual manufacturers) in order to use the warranty if needed.

Personally though, while the upfront cost is nice, I found it beneficial a LONG time ago to stick with homebuilt PC's, simply because they all use fairly standard equipment. My first x86-based computer was a Packard Bell 486, and it pained me as that thing got old that there was very, very little I could do with it to keep it updated (everything was proprietary). So my next PC was one of those "screw driver" shop ones from a local store where they built them with everything off the shelf. That was circa 1996 or so. Since then, I've never actually bought an entirely new PC. Don't get me wrong, my current computer is absolutely zero components in common with that system (and I've been through countless iterations of unique configurations), but all of that has been done through an upgrade here, an upgrade there, etc. With almost any major manufacturer's systems, you eventually just have to dump it and start again.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Below is a PC for $332 - including Microsoft Vista. The price would probably be around $280 if I used multiple companies for the component parts. All of this is, is from NewEgg.

  Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price
1 Rosewill R103A Black SGCC Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 350W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: R103A
Item #: N82E16811147010

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $30.99 -$5.00 Instant $25.99
1 Foxconn K8S755A-6ELRS Socket 754 SiS 755 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #: K8S755A-6ELRS
Item #: N82E16813186068

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $36.99 $36.99
1 MSI MX4000-T64 DDR AGP 2X/4X Low Profile Video Card - Retail
Model #: MX4000-T64
Item #: N82E16814127128

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $23.99 $23.99
1 AMD Sempron 64 2800+ Palermo 1.6GHz Socket 754 Processor Model SDA2800AIO3BX - OEM
Model #: SDA2800AIO3BX
Item #: N82E16819104244

Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy

In Stock
        $27.00 $27.00
1 WINTEC AMPO 512MB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Desktop Memory Model 35145588-P - Retail
Model #: 35145588-P
Item #: N82E16820161615

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $33.99 $33.99
1 Western Digital Caviar WD800BB 80GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: WD800BB
Item #: N82E16822144102

Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy

In Stock
        $40.99 $40.99
1 LITE-ON Combo Black IDE Model LH-52C1P-187 - Retail
Model #: LH-52C1P-187
Item #: N82E16827106058

Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

In Stock
        $23.99 $23.99
1 Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
Model #: 66I-00715
Item #: N82E16832116202

Return Policy: Software Return Policy

In Stock
        $119.99 $119.99
Subtotal: $332.93

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

>>That config is seriously outdated.

Who gives a fuck, it's new and it's cheap. Cheaper with XP or Linux instead of Vista, which I spent a good 3 hours setting up for someone yesterday (on a Dell) and was underimpressed. It sounds cliche, but there really are a lot of people who just want to use their computer to check email, surf the Internet and watch youtube videos. Call his suggested configuration outdated if you will, but it is adequate for a large group of users. I would also suggest that this configuration may actually boot up faster and run just as quickly as the average Dell because it won't come preinstalled without the megabytes of crap software that Dell likes to include with thier OEM and run at boot time. Ironically enough, looking through the invoice, they listed and charged $.01 per peice of crap software preinstalled. I can only guess it's for accounting/inventory purposes that they would do such a thing. I would hope that if they are going to charge for crap software that I don't want, even if it is a penny, I should have the opportunity to opt out when ordering.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

And yet it is highly similar to a $400 Dell. Same processor (AMD Sempron) same HD space. No, it's not a great computer. It's a cheap computer.

http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c= ca&CS=CADHS1&l=en&oc=C521SB_R_E [dell.com]

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

That config is seriously outdated.

Um...

That's the POINT of a "Dirt Cheap" PC setup. You want dirt cheap, you get second, third, or 4th generation old parts. Frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with using older generation parts, provided you don't expect them to perform like cutting edge stuff. Honestly, any machine with at least a 1Ghz Processor, 1 GIG RAM, and a 2 generation old video card should be able to run XP or Ubuntu with no trouble at all. Vista, No.

But then isn't that the POINT of this article anyway? To get off the expensive upgrade treadmill by moving to an OS that doesn't waste your CPU and RAM by being full of bloatware and unnecessary services and processes? (I won't even go into the benefits from a computing experience free of virus and spyware worries.)

Methinks that you missed the spirit of the OP's post.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Here's the problem with that system: Not future proof

If I buy even the cheapest Dell, I'll be getting either an AM2-socket AMD or a LGA775-socket Intel. I'll also be getting PCI Express. There likely won't be a video card in the PCIe slot, but it'll be there.

With your configuration, I get a Socket 754 AMD chip and AGP, neither of which have any future at all. No new parts are coming out for either or even have for quite a while now.

Now, let's try this the right way.

For reference, here's a Dell Dimension C521, currently priced at $359 + $29.99 shipping + $26.26 Ohio Sales Tax = $415.25
AMD Sempron 3400+
Windows Vista Home Basic
512MB Single Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 1DIMM
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
16X DVD-ROM Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
56k Modem

My system, built from Newegg
Powmax CP808PL-1 case with 450W PSU - $20.99
Sempron 3400+ - $69.99
DFI C51PV-M2/G Infinity - $93.99
--Provides GeForce 6150 Integrated Graphics and 7.1 Channel Audio
Western Digital WD800JD 80GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive - $42.99
Patriot 512MB DDR2-533 - $33.99
LG 8164BI 16X DVD-ROM - $17.99
Rosewill RK-101 Black Keyboard - $3.99
Kingwin KWI-123 USB Optical Mouse w/ Wheel - $3.99
Encore ENF656-ESW-AGPR 56K Fax Modem - $4.99
Windows Vista Home Basic OEM - $95

Total Price - $388.91 + $32.82 shipping = $415.73

That's a 48 cent difference in favor of the Dell. Also remember with the Dell it's already installed, tested, and expected to work right out of the box. With the homebrew machine, you're talking at least 20 minutes assembly if you're really good and then about 1/2 hour installing Windows (the new Vista installer really is a lot faster). Figure for another 1/2 hour downloading/installing the nVidia graphics and chipset drivers after that before you're ready to use it. Unlike some, I'll give that time up though, because going and decrapifying a new Dell, particularly the cheap ones, takes about as long.

In the end, you come out 48 cents poorer, lacking a single source of support if something isn't working right, and with no OS support at all (OEM editions of Windows are to be supported by the system builder, i.e. YOU). I love building my own machines as much as the next person (I haven't owned an OEM desktop in 10 years), but given the choice I'll take the Dell.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

I'll bite. Below is the cheapest system I can find on Dell's site, with all options at their lowest levels:
AMD Sempron(TM) 3400+
Genuine Windows Vista(TM) Home Basic
512MB Single Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz - 1DIMM
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
16X DVD-ROM Drive
No Monitor
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Cost: $389 ($359 plus $30 shipping)

Below is a quicker perusal of Newegg. Note that I could slightly downgrade some of these specs (such as going with a Sempron 3000 instead of 3400 to save money, an option which isn't available from Dell), and I could also shop around and likely come out cheaper than Newegg, but it's a good place to through lots of stuff together:

AMD Sempron 64 3400+ Manila 1.8GHz Socket AM2 Processor Model SDA3400CNBOX - Retail $69.99
Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Basic for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM $94.99
Patriot 512MB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200) Desktop Memory Model PSD251253381H $33.99
Western Digital Caviar WD800BB 80GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive - OEM $40.99
LG Beige E-IDE/ATAPI DVD-ROM Drive Model 8164BI - Retail $17.99
PC CHIPS A33G V1.0 Socket AM2 SiS 761 GX Micro ATX AMD Motherboard (w/ integrated video/network/sound) - Retail $46.99
POWMAX CP808PL-1 Beige Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 450W Power Supply - Retail $20.99
DCT Factory KBJ-006UB Black USB Standard Keyboard - Retail $3.99
Rosewill RM800P Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse - OEM $3.49

Total: $362 ($334 plus $32 shipping)

Savings over $27 on building yourself. Not huge, but it is a savings, and at these costs that's darned close to 10%.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

The advantages you mention were covered in my original post. I specifically said that you get the better warranty and support when buying from Dell, but that you could get off cheaper if all you wanted was a cheap computer. You challenge that statement, and when proved wrong, you try to retort with points that I originally made.

My original point still remains exactly the same despite your completely irrelevant comments: building your own system *can* be done cheaper than Dell (even on the low end - the price savings increases as you approach the high end), but if you want the extra warranty or support, you can buy from them.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

I'd rather spend a few hours installing windows than spend weeks uninstalling the Dell shovelware. I'd be pretty surprised if you bought a Dell and jumped for joy at the "fun" extras.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

It seems to me that often people who build their own computers and worry about overclocking are doing so to get the most bang for their buck for gaming purposes. This would not be necessarily be a target audience for Linux.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Building a computer today is easier than 10 years ago? O RLY?

Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts or undocumented jumpers. Perhaps you don't recall 'Plug and Pray'. To say nothing of cases wherein their manufacturers believed human hands were made of some steely, unbreakable substance and by no means needed protection from sharp metal.

I can slap a computer today very nearly by accident in comparison to the annoying foibles of yester-year-- saying it has become more difficult simply smacks of an unwillingness to become familiar with new technologies. That doesn't really play well in this community, sir.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

IRQ conflicts were 15 years ago. 10 years ago was about the easiest it has ever been. Buy an ATX power supply and case, any of the hundreds of Intel BX boards, whatever the fastest Slot 1 you could afford was, a hard drive, a cd drive, (it was all the same bus then) and if you really had mad cash maybe a Geforce 1 or Voodoo3. All cards were PCI w. AGP video. Everything was PC100 memory, and it was pretty cheap for the time.

Now, you have 5 differant processor sockets, 8 differant chipsets, 3 differant memories all in multiple speeds, differant power supply sockets, PCIx, PCI, and AGP, etc... Plus, it is harder to tell which parts are the fastest or best value now that everyone says their chip all their chips are equivallent to 4 GHz. The chance of being able to upgrade to current equipment is much less than it used to be. Replacing a processor now almost always means memory, power supply, motherboard, and heat sink.

All of this is hard enough building a windows machine, but now couple on getting Linux compatibility, and I say no thanks. I have built dozens of machines for family and friends, but I no longer do. I tell them to go to Dell, buy the cheapest thing, upgrade the memory. I don't have support or warranty issues. Im not returning parts that are wrong, etc...

My best solution to this problem was that when my super tricked out brand new system got stolen, I bought a mac, and it was one of my best computing moves. I paid a rediculous amount, but 3 years later, I haven't felt the need to upgrade it once.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

5 differant processor sockets, 8 differant chipsets, 3 differant memories...

FIVE GOLD RINGS!

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

"I can slap a computer today very nearly by accident"

I tend to do it on purpose and then tell people it fell down the stairs...

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

***Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts or undocumented jumpers.***

Was there some other kind of jumper?

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Yes, the incorrectly documented jumper.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Maybe you don't recall IRQ conflicts

Wasn't this conflict solved when Sddm was kicked out?

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Yes, but now busses explode randomly on a daily basis ;)

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

So I don't see where the challenge is for these people.

The challenge is in the purpose. AFAIK, people don't just got into the guts of their system to crank everything up for the joy of theoretical numbers to throw around. Generally, they're after the biggest, baddest box for a reason. A big reason for a lot of people is gaming, after all...it's what consumes the most horsepower. And gaming is currently where Linux falls short. I think if more games (that people want to play) were available with native Linux support, more people would be willing to switch.

Distro's like Ubuntu are great for non-technical users to have a solution to hop on the Internet, check email, do word processing, that sort of thing. In short, all the stuff that a non-technical user is likely to do with a computer anyway.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Putting your own computer together these days with all the options, choices to make, etc. is getting harder than it was 10 years ago.

I call bullshit on that one (and yes, I was putting together my own PCs ten years ago).

Then: A dozen different video card manufacturers, twice that many chipsets, equal variety of drivers.
Now: Two major manufacturers, two unified drivers.

Then: IDE=slow. Master? Slave? Cable? WTF is this?
Now: SATA - plug and go.

Then: Set up your modem to connect to your ISP and hope you don't get any incoming calls. Firewall? What's that?
Now: ADSL. Wireless routers. Built-in firewalls.

Then: Scanner? SCSI (and don't forget your terminators). Printer? Parallel. Video in? Forget it.
Now: USB and Firewire.

Then: Steel case weighing 20kg, built out of razor blades.
Now: Complete kit with rounded internal edges, fans in the box, you name it.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

I have been building my own rigs for more than ten years, and I have KUBUNTU up on one of the boxes on my LAN. I have a stumbling block trying to understand the LINUX file system. It's like I download something like Firefox - and can't find where it went. I have been searching for a book that could walk me through everything, sort of like a translation of M$-speak to LINUX-speak. Then, I would be more than happy to kiss Windoze g'Bye.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

OK, I'll try.

You know how Windows has "My Documents", right? And that's the default place for downloaded files to go?

The analogous concept in Linux is the "home directory". It's called that because each user account on the system has one, and that user has complete power to do whatever they want there, unlike most of the system which requires admin privileges to make changes.

The home directories, logically enough, are all stored in the /home branch of the filesystem. So if your user account name was "cpnabend", your home directory is probably /home/cpnabend

The home directory is where the system is going to store lots of stuff -- configuration files for applications, downloaded files, you can even install applications in there (if you're the only user who needs them). In this way the "home directory" concept is more expansive than the "My Documents" concept, which is only for document files (your configs are in the Registry, your apps are in Program Files). It's also why the home directory is more useful than My Documents -- if you regularly backup your home directory, you will have nearly everything you need to bring your Linux box back from the dead in case of emergency.

Re:Too many choices?

I've not seen any *nix distro use anything but /home for years, with the exception of the superuser wich always uses /root. The last time I did was about the time Microsoft changed from %windir%\profiles (the Windows NT 4 directory) to Documents and Settings.

Additionally, you can use the '~' shortcut. '~' is current user's home directory. It's equivalent to %userprofile% in Windows. '~fred' is user fred's home directory. Also, 'cd' with no directory always changes you back to your home directory (it's the same as 'cd ~').

Linux's unified directory structure is very confusing especially compared to the Windows system (everything is a file, logical to physical mapping is not obvious), but home directories are one of the easiest things possible. The most complicated thing for me was figuring out the difference between /bin, /usr/bin, and /usr/local/bin (and then /sbin and it's contemporaries). It boils down to needing to learn the FHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy _Standard), and then learning the history of the directories. For example, /opt and /srv are still rather new, so a lot of systems still use /var.

If you think about it though, Windows's directories are also rather complex. Windows doesn't install in C:\Windows. It's really in C:\Windows\System32. Program Files is supposed to be read only, and it's one of the reasons so many apps only work when you're an admin. Documents and Settings, while an accurate name, is filled with hidden directories where the OS is trying to keep the user from breaking it, but you still need to get into them from time to time. pagefile.sys is the system pagefile, hiberfil.sys is for hibernation. NTLDR is the bootstrap, and the bootloader is kept in the volume MBR and is completely hidden since all it does is find NTLDR and run it. Most systems have an \i386 directory copied from the CD since Windows wants it from time to time. There's also \RECYCLER which is the recycle bin, and \System Volume Information which contains information Windows itself uses as well as where it store the Restore Points. %userprofile%\NTUSER.DAT is the user's registry hive, while the other registry hives all live in C:\WINDOWS\system32\config. %windir%\system32\config\systemprofile and %documentsandsettings%\.Default user also exists on most systems, containing information on the default profiles. %windir%\system32\drivers is filled with kernel-mode code (real mode, mostly drivers) and %windir%\system32\dllcache contains protected-mode code (user-mode apps). Then there's 5 or 6 different temp directories, and storage locations for Group Policy, security objects, system logs, etc.

IMX, none of that is half as well documented as the Linux stuff.

Re:Misguided or simply lazy

Mac doesn't manage dependencies at all. So everything is a monolithic glob, or you have to manually install some other required piece of software.

Mac doesn't manage system wide updates at all. For every app, you have to hope it has a "check for update" option, somewhere. With Linux package managers, it's across the system, for all applications. Mac will never do this, because Apple vs Mac developers is a dysfunctional relationship, Apple wants to make it awkward so they can unfairly compete when they feel like it.

Finally, Mac apps and updates are often lazy, and request the system is restarted. Linux packages rarely do this.

I don't know what your Linux package management experiences are, but I've rarely had any issues installing, updating and removing apps, although granted on systems like Debian they are not the most up to date, which rarely matters over the advantages of everything being managed.

On the other hand...

Linux may not be just a programmer's OS, but the Ubuntu flavor of Linux, IMO, isn't a very good programmer's OS at all. I think it crossed that fine line between control and ease of use.

Re:On the other hand...

Are the configuration files in either a text format, or a well documented format?
Does have a normal UNIX shell environment?

Then it's got all the control you need.

Re:On the other hand...

Yeah, I never understood the appeal of Ubuntu and am diehard Fedora. The sudo business was very odd to me. You can run a command as root by using "sudo", but you enter your *own password? What gives?

Sudo gives you root access for the purpose immediately at hand, and then takes you back to your account. It lets you get in, get out, and not have your fanny hanging out there on the net in admin mode for someone to burn you.

Re:On the other hand...

It also means that if you're an admin and there are many users, you can avoid giving out the root password. You can set it so only specific people can use sudo, and you can monitor everything they do while in sudo mode. So, if something goes wrong, you know which person did it rather than a general "someone with the root password did it" and every guy's pointing to the guy next to him going "he did it!"

Re:On the other hand...

A fair point but my cat can push my PC off the desk, cover it in firewood, pour on petrol and set it alight destroying not just my PC but my house and possibly my neighbours houses into the bargain. I've even caught it dragging a couple of kilos of semtex to my off site backup locations with a joyful gleam in it's eye but luckily I was able to distract it with tuna.

For this reason I've now banned my cat from playing with matches. I had a maths teacher once who claimed his cat could do quadratic equations better than anyone in his class which did make me wonder that if he was able to teach his cat so successfully to do maths why he couldn't teach his class to do it so well, I suggested he may have had a more fulfilling career in a circus at which he looked surprised and said he thought that's what he had done.

retromercial

We've quietly replaced his copy of Windows XP with Folger's Coffee Crystals. Let's see if he notices any difference.

Re:retromercial

/me sadly raises hand ...then realizes he's sitting in front of a screen and no one can actually see the hand raised ...then sadly lowers the hand...

Re:retromercial

It's my small contribution to the dialogue between the prematurely old and the young.

From the wikipedia entry: [wikipedia.org]
Another famous advertising campaign from the early 1980s took the viewer inside various gourmet restaurants as a voice-over whispered, "We are here at (insert name of four-star restaurant), where we've secretly replaced the fine coffee they usually serve with Folgers Crystals. Let's see if anyone can tell the difference!" Of course, no one ever did.

I remember similar stuff said about XP

Look what happened there. People that might be interested in Linux or OS X will try Linux or OS X. People who aren't, won't. In the end, very little will change.

Re:I remember similar stuff said about XP

I remember similar stuff said about XP. Look what happened there. People that might be interested in Linux or OS X will try Linux or OS X. People who aren't, won't. In the end, very little will change.

Not entirely true. Windows XP was actually eagerly anticipated by most of the windows using world. The possibility of a stable OS that would work with existing applications, games, and be compatible with the stuff we use at work, was exciting. It's easy to forget the dark years of Win9x (especially for me since I held out using DOS/Win3.1 until 1 year before XP came out) but they were terrible with BSODs every day. I remember how a computer could not be left on overnight and be expected to run well in the morning. I remember that even if you setup password protected logins you could bypass all of that by clicking 'cancel' at the login prompt. Windows XP was a HUGE improvement. It was massively adopted upon release.

Now Vista on the other hand has elicited nothing but hand wringing for several years. For what I can tell it has little good to offer except eye candy. On the downside the OS has DRM in it's DNA, it has a ridiculous security sceme. It fails to run lots of current software. It claims but fails to be more secure (can't use 3rd party anti-virus). It has extreme hardware requirements. I built my last new PC within months of the release of XP. I will not build a PC for Vista. I will not buy a PC with Vista. I do not look forward to the day that I must start using Vista at work.

The big question is this: Linux or Apple? I have an older PC in the house running Ubuntu. It's great, and it also sucks. It has tons of free software. It can't legally play DVDs. It is supremely stable and runs really fast on very antiquated hardware. Getting it to do something out of the ordinary (like using the midi keyboard I got for my son) requires navigating a byzantine maze of forums, scripts, command lines. It fit nicely with my philosophy. You can build your own. On the other hand, Apples "just work." They cost more. You don't get to build your own. Since I don't have as much time as I used to I'll probably buy an Apple for 90% of my use, and I might have a 2nd PC with linux for doing stuff that requires high end software that I don't care to buy.

That being said, am I a typical user? Hardly. I've been on the internet since 1988. I built my last computer myself. I know enough to know how little I know. Lots of people think I'm some sort of computer guru. I realize that I am just barely competent. I would never recommend linux to my Dad or a computer-clueless friend. I tell them, "Go buy a Mac. They just work." When they get their Apple, they are happy. I'd rather USE a computer than ADMINISTER one.

Hooray

I, for one, welcome our new Linux-using recruits.

Ubuntu has done a lot to make Linux mainstream, and I think it's the best distro out there for 'regular' people who have grown up on Windows and want to give Linux a try.

Frankly, I'm perplexed that anyone would pass on the opportunity to try out a free (as in beer) OS. Except gaming junkies, of course, but I think that with the maturing PC userbase they've become less relevant. Or maybe I'm just getting old ...

OS changing is too complicated for most people

"Frankly, I'm perplexed that anyone would pass on the opportunity to try out a free (as in beer) OS. "

Changing OS is too complicated for most people, and there's not enough payback. If it works, why break it? If you can send email, and look at the web, and write a letter, and it took a lot of pain to get that far, why change the system you use and have to learn all over again, maybe losing your old files? That's how most people see it.

Changing OS may cost nothing financially, but for many people, their time isn't free. The time required to install the new software, get up to speed using the new tools and assuring yourself that you can access your old files and all your other hardware (printer, digital camera, internet connection, etc) is either lost business time (=costs money) or lost personal time (=time away from more pleasant use of leisure time). It's only "free" if you were going to spend that time messing around with a computer anyway. For many people that's not the case.

Commendable but...

The place where Linux really needs to start to shine is the workplace. People run PCs at home, mostly because they run PCs at work. There's exceptions, but this is definitely the majority.

What's really needed is some 'professional' IT organisation to sell a definitive Linux solution for a whole workplace. And support it. And point out that actually it a) costs less to support and b) is way cheaper.

Personally, I think it's viable, and I can see IBM gradually moving that way, and perhaps Sun too. But they'll have a lot of work to do to overcome the 'No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft' attitude that's ingrained into most of the workplaces in the world. (I'm still somewhat stunned at the complete lack of understanding of the mere existance of Unix that I see in my current, IT company).

*shrug* I look forward to a day when every business desktop runs Linux. I think there's a lot of people who's talents are wasted being support monkeys for cranky windows bogosity. But at the same time, I can't see it happening, simply because it'll put a lot of people out of work.

Who the hell is this end user that edits DVDs?

I switched my 80 year-old grandmother to Ubuntu 6 months ago. I won't pretend there were no problems, but they all revolved around user interface. Specifically, things didn't EXACTLY match Outlook/Internet Explorer's interface. Once I explained that and she used it for about 2 weeks, she has no problems whatsoever.

She DOESN'T do any DVD editing. She DOES use digital photography (in that I send her pictures of her great grandson and she views them). She's even managed to solve minor problems on her own. She writes documents, receives documents (both word and excel), and has had no issues to date that could not be solved in 10 minutes on the phone.

Her only major complaint? It's not the user interface. It's not the multifunction printer/copier/scanner. It's not the funky colors. It's not the email. It's that she can't make the computer wit more than 2 hours before hibernating.

Perhaps these "reviews" of "typical users" should evealuate what a real "typical user" actually is.

It's the Internet!

I 'switched' to Linux several times in the past, only to get frustrated and switch back. But Kubuntu has stuck. I'm Windows free for a year now. The reason it stuck this time is simple - with Firefox, Flash 9, Acrobat Reader, and w32codecs, the WWW is now as good on Linux as it is on Windows. I'm surprised more people don't make a bigger deal about this. For me it's huge.

Ubuntu

I tend to agree with the mass consensus, Ubuntu has gone a long way to bringing home the Linux desktop but still needs work in some areas. One such area is laptop support. When I installed Ubuntu my standby was flaky and hibernate hung on restart forcing a hardboot. These are key areas that do not work properly and there are many other little bugs like that. As I said it has come a long way but still does not work 100% out of the box.

My quest to "switch"

I have been meaning to try out Linux for years, but never ventured. Thanks to reading /. (can't remember how long; should be 3+ years) I finally decided to take the plunge two weeks ago.

I chose openSUSE, simply because it got some Press(Read: Novell).

I have XP on Toshiba Laptop and wanted to have a dual boot on it.

I used GParted [sourceforge.net] for partition, though openSUSE came with partition manager. GParted was very easy and "Windows like"

The installation went smooth and openSUSE recognized all hardware. I chose GNome as the desktop, simply because Firefox came with it.

I played around and customized to my liking. Opened the Terminal and played with the vi editor. It seems like vi skills are etched in memory(I used to program in C years ago).

I hit the road block with wireless network. The installer recognized Intel 3945 wireless card, but would not connect.

Doing a Google search(are you happy now Google lawyers?), I found I am not alone. I tried ALL solutions offered on various forums.

1. Using Intel's Linux driver - This required a kernel version of 2.6.8 or greater. openSUSE 10.2's kernel is 2.6.16 or something. It is only sensible to use the native driver right? I hit the wall again and again.

2. ndiswrapper - Grudgingly I tried this as a last resort. Same result.

Time spent: Few weekday evenings and a weekend (to the dismay of spouse)

I absolutely love the shiny OS. Unfortunately I can not use it without an wireless internet connection.

So it sits there unused.(I changed the default OS to Windows in GRUB).

Works for me...

As noted on another thread, I spent a week running my iBook G4 (HD died...) with an Ubuntu LiveCD. Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, flash drive. It did 90% of what I needed to get my job and life done, and with less speed bumps than swapping over to a standard windows XP Pro for the subsequent week the machine was in the shop. Very impressive.

I switched to Debian desktop in 2005

Ubuntu is derived from Debian. I had qualms about making my main desktop Linux for various reasons, but in 2005 an attempt to have my Windows do wireless screwed up the whole system, and then I needed to use that OEM Windows CD crap, which not only mucked with my C drive but erased my whole D drive for some reason. I got tired of it and switched to Debian.

I thought I would miss some things in Windows but I didn't. The thing I thought I would miss most was Microsoft Word, but Abiword did fine. I was always concerned I would have to modify my resume and send it out in a nice Word format that Linux wouldn't have, but that was never a problem. I never missed Windows for anything. They talk about Windows having better hardware support, but my (then) 802.11b wireless was a hell of a lot easier to install on my system then Linux. I also liked the ability to open a shell and just be able to do stuff - do an awk or sort or whatever on a file, have multiple windows and so forth. It had all the nice user brain-dead stuff of Windows, but I could drop to a shell and actually do stuff, instead of getting some MS-DOS prompt crap. It's much better nowadays than my old days when I had a Linux kernel version 1 running fvwm as one of my work desktops (the other desktop at that time was a Sun IPX running SunOS 4.1.3_U1).

My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

I'm a long time windows user, from the DOS days and I've always remained on the windows side of things mainly because at work its all we use. I never saw any point of switching of linux at home knowing that knowledge would not serve me at work.

I'd usually spend efforts trying to improve on things that would help me at work.

Anyway, now im starting a web hosting and web design (very) small company. I'm not really impressed by the direction MS is taking nor by the fees its charging. Vista smells like a truckload of overhead shit that i have zero interest in even trying out. The 2003 line of servers from MS is just too expensive just to avoid mentionning i hate the notion of online activation/tracking.

I've installed Ubuntu and other distros of linux at the time and while I've always got stuck with the file structure and various command lines to learn, i feel this is something i could get the hang of over time.

But what brings me back everytime to windows are my own limitations regarding programming. At work, we do ASP and ASP.net. Not c#, vb.net. I can read c# but i don't really program with it.

I have no interest in learning php, ruby or other languages despite all their advantages. Because at work that's not what we use and I'd rather re-use my skills rather than split into a new branch just because im having something on the side.

so, my question is, is there any (easy) way i could be running the .net framework on ubuntu ? no virtual machine if possible, no emulation, just run .net framework on ubuntu ?

I know its pretty contracdictory but i dont want to install overhead on my server just for the benefit of running .net, I don't think its possible otherwise but that's why im asking to people who knows more about this.

So, is it possible ?

Re:My question to Ubuntu/linux preachers

When one invests their time in platform dependant skills, one has to live with the fact they will be forever tied to that platform. I'm pretty sure that what you want is not yet legally possible.

Re:Get the mono

(Not the caulking...)

http://www.mono-project.com/ [mono-project.com]

It isn't about trying, it is about sticking around

There has never really been a problem with people willing to give Linux a honest chance. I've found that I could even get my mother to try with "Slackware 96".

The problem is having people that do try out Linux stick around. Most go back to what is comfortable and they are used to after the novelty has wore off. There seems to be so much fluff about those that try out Linux and not about about those that stick with Linux. There hasn't really ever been an issue with those trying out Linux.

This is not entirely realistic..

None of the two computers have an ATI video card. Allegedly the ATI drivers sometimes even work, but I have yet to see this for myself.

The author has a HP Laserjet standing around? Nice. Good luck with a Canon "software" printer or other GDI printers though.

One or the other would've made the report much more interesting to me.

Not viable on my ThinkPad

I'm used to Fedora but I thought I'd give Ubuntu a try, so I downloaded and burned a copy of the install CD for 6.10 and tried to install it on a ThinkPad A22m which already has W2K on it but more than enough space for something else as well.

Booting from the CD seemed to take a lot longer than, say, booting from a Knoppix CD. And when it was done, I had a desktop with an icon item marked "Install". No helpful dialoge to take me through the process or even a hint of what was expected next.

I assumed that to install Ubuntu on the machine I had to launch the thing marked "Install", so I double-clicked. After a short while the whole thing just froze.

Viable alternative? Not for that machine.

The problems with Linux.

Well the list is typical I am afraid.
1. No 64 bit Flash. Or the lack of support in the X64 version of Firefox for 32 bit plug ins.
2. You can not watch DVDs you buy at the store with out breaking the law... Thank you US government...
3. Drivers specifically the fact that it is IMPOSIBLE for a manufacture to put a binary linux driver on a disk and stick in the box with his product.

The first part the Linux community really can not do a lot about. I guess that the distros could ship the 32 bit version of Firefox as the default until Adobe catches up.

The second issue is a legal fiction and can only be fixed by lawyers... And that is never a good state of affairs.

The third is my least favorite problem because it could at least be helped by the kernel developers. If they would just put in a stable binary driver interface then it would be possible to put drivers an a CD. Currently they don't want to put one in because they feel it would encourage closed source drivers. They will use excuses about performance but the simple truth is it is all about politics.
This article was a great example. The new network adapter didn't have a driver in distro. In this case the driver hadn't made it to the kernel yet. Even if the manufacture had produced a FOSS driver there would be no way to put it on the CD. There would be no way of knowing if it would work with the users kernel. They would have put a bunch of source code on the disk and maybe a script to compile it... If the user has a development system installed and the right headerfiles...
I hate technical problems caused by politics.

Flash problem

One of his big problems was getting flash to work with a 64 bit browser. He solved this by going to a 32 bit browser. It is also possible to wrap the 32 bit flash binary using nspluginwrapper http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/projects/nspluginwr apper/ [beauchesne.info] which works OK most of the time using 64 bit Seamonkey and FC6.
--
Flash on solar power: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html [blogspot.com]

A very good review in general

I was impressed by the author's attention to detail and clear specification of the tested systems and the steps involved in using them.

One useful correction would be that programs are just as easy to install on .rpm-based systems as they are on .deb-based systems. The default tool on Fedora Core 6 is called YUM [fedorafaq.org] and it does all the dependency resolving necessary. There are even simpler front ends to it such as Pup [oreillynet.com] and Pirut. Package installation, deinstallation, upgrade and update are just as easy as they are with Aptitude.

The problems that the author experiences with 64-bit Flash are unfortunately a result of there being insufficient pressure from GNU/Linux consumers on vendors to supply Free software. A similar problem is experience by many Ubuntu users that rely on the non-Free drivers produced by Nvidia for their graphics cards, or the various non-free binary blobs used for some dodgy wireless hardware. This will continue to be a problem as long as distributions like Ubuntu facilitate the manufacturers of this hardware in evading one of the central principles of Free Software. The manufacturers can't do a good enough job of staying current with the kernel and so GNU/Linux will always be a second class citizen as long as we accept this. Fortunately there are manufacturers, such as Intel [intellinuxgraphics.org] that provide Free software for their 3D graphics cards and their wireless chipsets and so it's worth choosing their components when building a new system. (I used to buy ATI stuff because the Free 3d drivers were better than the Free Nvidia ones, but apparently the nouveau [freedesktop.org] project is opening up the list of working Free Nvidia cards. I'll probably be giving Nvidia and ATI both a miss in favour of Intel though).

Unfortunately Mark Shuttleworth is a short-term thinker who is pushing [desktoplinux.com] many of the Ubuntu developers into including binary, closed blobs that work until you update your system. This is the tired old "I'm a pragmatist" line which has been releiving the pressure on manufacturers to open their drivers and on users to choose non-closed hardware while purchasing new systems. It's anything but pragmatic and leads to the sort of frustrations seen in the article.

Recently Took the Plunge

I recently decided came to the exact same conclusion as the article supposes some people will--Vista was not getting on my computer and I didn't want to continue patching XP for the next 5 years. I have almost no Unix experience and the command prompt is something that I have never been comfortable with. But I had a lot of faith in The Community since I'm a regular /. reader and I figured that I could learn.

I use my computer for a couple of things:

1. Most importantly, media server, synchronizer of iPods and center to my home entertainment center.
2. Email, browsing, messaging.
3. Office documents.
4. Warcraft III.

Setting up Linux was difficult, I won't lie. I went with Fedora 6 after not really finding any distro review sites that I could understand what they were talking about. I don't "blame" the setup difficulty on anything--I expected it to be difficult for me. Configuring a dual-boot system took me 4-6 hours to figure out, setting up the right partitions (making sure nothing on my windows partitions got erased) took me wayy too long (screwed it up twice). Figuring out how to move from firefox 1.5 to firefox 2.0 was surprisingly difficult. I don't really understand why that particular thing isn't part of the yum update process but that's just an outsider's perspective. The other thing that was surprisingly hard was the browser plugins--I have an x64 chip and none of the plugins have x64 versions that I could find. So I had to install some firefox extension that creates cross-compatibility.

I haven't figured out Samba yet--this seems like it should be easy but so far it's not. Honestly, I'm inclined to believe that this is the fault of Windows Networking. Regardless, it's hard. As for Warcraft III, one day I'll set it up to run under Wine, but for now I'm happy dual-booting. It encourages me to play much less, which is definitely a very good thing.

Everything else has been pretty reasonable. It hasn't been easy, but it was more or less what I would expect moving from one platform that I've been using for 8 years to a totally new one. After 2 months, I'm now up and running and can use my computer for basically everything I want. I love the feeling of security I have in the system. File security is so easy and I love the fact that everyone doesn't log in as administrator. And I'm no longer terrified of viruses.

I'm very glad I invested the time and would encourage others in my position to do the same. Just keep at it--the answer is always there on a message board somewhere :)

I can beat that.

johan@ubuntu:~$ uptime
17:11:48 up 423 days, 8:58, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

Games

The problem is still games.

I upgraded my hardware in January and installed Gentoo as my primary OS. I figured if I could get a few old games to run under wine or cedega, I wouldn't have to dual-boot. And all my other software needs were more than taken care of by open source apps.

But my experience, specificly with guildwars, has been poor. Under wine, it worked poorly (that is, looked bad, but performed OK) if I did a specific patch to the source, so I bought a few months of cedega which claimed to support it. Under cedega, once I dug through the forums to find a configuration that worked, it ran, and was pretty, but performance was very poor (20fps) even at low graphics settings (and this is with a core2duo6600 and a nVidia8800gts).

Anyway, I've been happy with the switch, but dissappointed by having to dual boot for games. I really hoped that if I stayed off the cutting edge, I would be ok.

Wireless

This comment is almost certainly redundant, and it certainly is with the usual Ubuntu forums. But my number one problem is WIRELESS. For whatever reason, the wireless chipsets that my laptops have (Broadcomm) do not work easily in Ubuntu. Yes, I have gotten them to work, but only by some minor hacking and lots of forum-crawling.

Wireless is becoming part of the "out-of-the-box" requirement for a home personal user. I want to be able to just put the Edgy Edge CD in, install, and everything just works. And if the LiveCD worked with wireless out of the box...that would be pure heaven.

Other than wireless, everything else is fine. Printing, OpenOffice, web browsing, everything else works out of the box!

So we (the community) are *almost* there...

My Ubuntu Experience

I'm also trying Ubuntu Linux on my desktop. I'm liking it a lot, although I didn't remove Windows yet. This is my 3rd install (1st one got wiped when my previous HD crashed, 2nd one I managed to destroy by running Nautilus sudoed and making all the files owned by root.root), and after some tweaking with Automatix and Automatix Bleeder, and uninstalling the older OpenOffice available in Edgy and installing the newer 2.1.0 one, everything so far is working well.

What I really miss in Ubuntu is a good and simple file manager. Nautilus is okay, but doesn't work in the intuitive way Windows Explorer works. Some annoying usability problems I have with it:

a) The tree view on the left panel doesn't answer to keyboard commands that work on folders and files in the right panel, such as pressing Del to delete a folder. Windows Explorer is consistent in this regards.

b) It doesn't get updated properly if I use a bookmarked folder to jump to a folder, I must press the Reload button for the tree structure to appear correctly. The same feature in Windows Explorer works as intended, with the tree instantaneously opening to where I jumped.

c) When I delete a folder I'm inside by right-clicking it in the tree folder and choosing Remove, it moves both the folder and the fact I'm inside it to the trash, thus making me lose the position I were in the tree. Windows Explorer deletes the folder and put me in the folder directly below the one that was deleted.

d) I can't move a file or folder with the mouse right-button. Windows Explorer allows this by showing me a context-sensitive menu when I release the button, offering options such as move, delete, create link, and other features integrated into the shell.

e) Lastly, even though Nautilus recognize some oddly named text files as such, double clicking them is an exercise in guessing: sometimes it will offer me a window asking me whether I want to run it (when it doesn't have the executable attribute set) or open it, other times it'll simply open it in GEdit, and others still it won't allow me to open them in GEdit, forcing me to right-click and choose the "Open with Text Editor" option. Windows Explorer, on the other hand, allows me easily select a default action for files with this or that extension, and it simply works.

If someone knows of a Linux file manager that works in intuitive ways, if possible a Windows Explorer clone with Gnome integration, please tell me. I'll start using it right away.

PS.: Interestingly enough, I play World of Warcraft, and while it started breaking in my Windows XP installation, showing latencies of up to 15000ms and disconnecting, in Ubuntu with Wine it works almost flawlessly. One more reason to keep Ubuntu running. :)

Ubuntu wifi woes

Love the Ubuntu, dual booting it on my HP laptop. Compiles proggy's hella fast, and Blender render's like a beast with ubuntu's native 64bit drivers. Problem of course is that I just can't get the Broadcom 4318 wifi card to work. Every driver fix i've found on the intarweb failed. Which is highly annoying because I have to plug in to do any updates or anything, or for that matter switch over to windows xp in a wifi environment. I do hope they fix this little issue (and yes I know it's a proprietary driver mess) in Fiesty Fox.

count me in the "continues to attempt" category

Tried ubuntu again last week, attempting to make the switch from windows. Boots to liveCD mode, which is a cool idea, with just an install button on the desktop for permanent install. So i tried that out, selected a partition, which is difficult since the labels i apply in windows to all my partitions aren't displayed in Ubuntu... So i selected what looked like my old windows partition, and told it to blow that away and install there. It went through the install process, got me to remove the CD and reboot. "could not load operating system" Well, that was fun, back to windows. Talking to a linux friend the next day, we figured it probably installed to a hard drive that wasn't the primary one (I have 4 SATA drives, thus the confusion) Really though, you just can't have that sort of thing happen during an OS install! Why can't it figure out such an obvious problem on it's own!?

I've been using Ubuntu for 30 days too

I've been using Ubuntu for about 30 days myself now and I'm not switching back to Windows XP / Vista. I've been a Windows for over 10 years - I am a computer programmer though.

Here are the things I've had to do / got me confused:
    Had to edit my fstab in order to mount a partition which wasn't added by default. I found the switch to the Linux filesystem style a bit of a mental shift, but there's tons of information online on what to do. Although, I did make a mistake and Ubuntu booted into the command line, but I just copied the backup I'd made over the original file. Couldn't editing the fstab get a GUI?
    Tried to access my Windows XP installation (NTFS) - still can't get it read/write even with NTFS-3G, but I'm not bothered anymore.
    Had to enable Universal mode in the package manager in order to get DivX and Mp3 support etc. Standard movie player still doesn't work (and I can't un-install it) but VLAN works great.
    KTorrent seems a lot slower than uTorrent and sometimes the icon appears in the wrong place, but I don't really care.
    Didn't like the built in text editor, but that's OK, I'll get another one!
    I successfully repartitioned and formatted a FAT32 drive to a size greater than 32GB with QTParted. That's not even possible in Windows.
    Easy to get quality software with the package manager.

The hardware support has been better than XP. No need to download the drivers for my HP Deskjet printer, my scanner just worked, no need to drag out a floppy disk drive in order to install Serial ATA drivers to install the OS (like on Windows). Graphics card worked at correct resolution and correct colour depth out of the box. I really can't complain at all about that.

Clicked on a PDF and it just opened (didn't have to wait an hour for Adobe acrobat reader!).

My wife doesn't like it because as she says "Everything is slightly different." so she's got her XP partition. I'm sold though, I can do everything I want / need to do for free, without the irritations of Windows.

There are some other minor niggles with Gnome, but in general, I'm very impressed and can't wait for the next version.

So we did it again.

that site just crashed. i get really cute dos prompts since deux minutes ago.

Ubuntu over XP

This is probably mirrored by many other people, but I wanted to say I had a similar story...

I had gone through all of the RCx versions of Vista, and decided rather quickly that I hated it. Nothing but eye candy and incompatibilities that slowed my system to a crawl.

I dug out my old Windows XP disk to re-install it, and stared at for a few minutes- thinking about how much of a pain in the ass it will be to install it (yet again- since it seemed to be a quarterly deal anyway). I also remembered the service packs, the 2+ hours of update downloads (via T1), and all the other stability and security issues XP STILL has. I then said "It's time to look at Linux again." I've tried Linux on the desktop before, and have been disappointed. I use it on almost exclusively on my servers, but that is an entirely different animal.

I installed Ubuntu (Edgy) and love it! It took a bit of time to work out things with my higher-end ATI graphics adapter, and it has taken some time to find some reasonable alternatives to some Windows apps, especially for playing media and (gulp) DVDs, but I'm very, very happy with it. It still isn't quite to the point where I would tell any of my less-computer-literate relatives to install it, but I feel it is getting really-really close. The only issue I could really see is most games haven't been released for Linux (and may/may not work with WINE), but I'm not a big gamer and don't really miss any of them. Actually- there is ONE thing I really do miss- iTunes. I can't see how it would be that big of a deal for Apple to port it from BSD to Linux. Fortunately I have a Mac sitting on the same desk.

30 days here too...

I've just completed my first 30 days with kubuntu. Normally I use FreeBSD, but I wanted to try some newer bells and whistles like the 3d gl mode desktop. I installed opensuse 10.2, but that only lasted ten days before yast became unusable and the zen package manager did an impromptu mindwipe of its own.

So my next stop was kubuntu. Although the package management system has some bugs of its own, it's been great so far. Everything just works with very little hassle. My touchpad, my wireless, the gl desktop. Very little difficulty. I hadn't ever touched a debian based distro and I had a bit of a learning curve with that. There seems to be a different set of issues with each package management tool, adept, apt-get, synaptic, aptitude, but it's not bad once you learn your way around and I haven't found myself in dependency hell yet.

Honestly I must be too stupid for linux

I've tried to get into linux two times now (once w/ Ubuntu) and each time I can't even get past the installation. The worse part is I've had to reformat my C: drive because of these installation errors. Now I wouldn't normally call myself a neophyte when it comes to technology either I've been using PCs since my childhood and the C64, and I'm one of the very few people I know who doesn't have any problems with windows XP, and only needs to reformat or call tech support about once every 18 months cause I get some stupid idea like "I think I'll try linux again". Learning linux to me feels like learning to milk a cow, sure it's free milk but is it worth the trouble when I can just run to the store for a gallon.

I did this with SuSE 9.3

Even then it was a viable alternative - once you had USB printing stable. But yes, Ubuntu is awesome. Even Knoppix doesn't recognise hardware that well..

Gave Ubuntu a fair trial myself - bought Vista

I ask that instead of automatically going "OMG he went with Microsoft he must be stupid / evil / a troll / whatever" - you think seriously and constructively about the pros and cons of each platform and why the MS route was more suitable for me. And perhaps, how Linux can cater to my type in future.

I've been interested in Linux for a long time, but as yet I haven't found it suitable to be a *complete replacement* for Windows; and unfortunately because it's so inconvenient switching back and forth, I might as well use the platform which works for me. I find myself facing Compromises quite a lot with Linux, and this is fine for a secondary machine but not a primary one. The compromises are fully understandable - most of the software is written by unpaid volunteers in their small amounts of free time, there are patent/DMCA issues holding back certain areas and many hardware and software manufacturers simply refuse to develop for Linux. However the fact remains that there are still compromises to be made - and ones which I'm not willing to make when I can pay £67 and do everything and never have any compatibility problems, compromises or headaches.

I have a long log of my experience with Ubuntu somewhere, but basically it boils down to this:

- Installation itself was ridiculously easy - on par with Vista. It was after installation that things went downhill...

- It didn't recognise my 1Gb network port (Asus P5B) so I had to use the 100Mb one until I *recompiled the kernel with patches* (messy, and getting the bits together for compiling it was a bitch)

- I never got wireless networking going, it would see the access points and connect to them but not get any data through and signal quality read '0'. I knew what I was doing and it was clearly a bug. Even ndiswrapper with the win98 drivers didn't work. There were endless other people encountering exactly the same problem in the Ubuntu Forums (network section) but nobody coming up with working answers. I am not willing to accept "well you have a wire connection, use that" as an answer.

- I got bluetooth kind-of working, although it was flaky to say the least (to be fair, the same usually applies in Windows. I only know of Macs and other non-PCs that have decent, reliable bluetooth support)

- Getting something other than 60Hz on my monitor, required hacking xorg.conf manually... I can do this so it's not a problem, but really I shouldn't have had to. A flaw with Ubuntu rather than Linux itself (and a long standing flaw as I had the same problem with early versions) as other distros handle monitor detection and configuration perfectly.

- Getting things like java, flash, etc were a ballache, as ever, due to all the licensing/patent issues.

- World of Warcraft didn't work in WINE or Crossover when I tried it. I didn't get around to messing with it much, to be fair, but I expected the latter to work as it's advertised as one of their primary supported products.

- I'm a keen photographer, and photography in Linux is "pants", to say the least. The only decent, configurable RAW converter (not dcraw, which only does the basics) was the commercial Bibble, and even then - due to it not using Canon's SDK - it's not a patch on Breezebrowser Pro or Canon's own DPP in Windows when the results are put side by side. Photography was essentially the deal-killer with me: there are many things I'm willing to compromise on or 'live with' - but I am not willing to compromise on my photos, otherwise I wouldn't have bought a 30D.

- What with all the other bits of software and games for Windows which are not ported to Linux or supported in WINE, and the sheer amounts of time you *still* have to invest in getting anything out-of-the-ordinary working (not nice after a hard day at work when all you want to do is spend the few available hours having fun) I'm afraid I went with the horned devil. £67 (Home Premium OEM) seems like a very reasonable amount to pay after all the wrestling with Ubuntu

30 + days with Ubuntu

It's more like 90 days since by Xp computer's hard drive crashed and I switched "everything" to my Linux hobby computer. I haven't looked back. Running Open Office, Firefox and Thunderbird gives me everything I need. I replaced the hard drive on my former "main" computer, re-installed Xp and went through Windows re-registration hell, but still use Ubuntu for all my everyday work except for an income tax program and a game. There's no way I'm going with all the added baggage to upgrade to Vista and MS Office '07.

Why Linux Will Not Become A Full OS

Full Disclosure: I was weaned on Microsoft product as a young boy, with the exception of a brief incubation period with the old Macintosh operating systems. Started with MS-DOS 5.0 and went up from there, really cutting my teeth on Windows 3.1 running off of DOS 6.0. I went up the line, learning primarily on Windows systems - 95, 98, NT 4.0, 2000 and up - with the exception of a brief period in high school where we had to use OS/6. I have primarily been a Windows user for my entire life that I've been involved with computers.

That said, I am not very happy with Microsoft, to the point where I recently decided that, yes, I would take the Linux plunge, and try to learn to make the operating system hum. I am certainly capable; I've got enough qualifications - both universal and MS-acquired - to ensure that I'm no dummy when it comes to any computer system. What I learned after awhile was that, while most modern Linux OSes are indeed superior in terms of doing most daily tasks, the system did not compete in one key area: games.

This sounds stupid, right? Well, let's look at the key components of my PC Gaming repertoire:

Football Manager/Worldwide Soccer Manager 2007 - No Linux version, haven't gotten it to work with WINE yet.

Pro Evolution Soccer 6 - No Linux version, almost surely a WINE casualty.

Gametap - Please. Gametap barely works without a hitch in Windows.

Various console emulators - Good SNES and NES support, limited for others, nonexistant for more obscure emulators.

So what does that mean? It means that if I want to play those games, I have to run Windows. Simply HAVE to. The only actual game on that list that even has support for any other non-Windows based OS is Football Manager, which has a Mac version. As for the emulators, just because the emulators work doesn't necessarily mean that I'll be able to find drivers for my controllers. I use an XBox 360 controller on my PC, and from the looks of it, getting that thing to work in Linux might as well be an all-day event.

When I tell Linuxvangelists this, they tell me to get alternate games on Linux, which, at best, are inferior versions of their more popular sibling titles. Furthermore, they look at my games as if I was a corporate whore for playing them. "Why would you need to play Pro Evolution? That's closed source!". As if they have the right to judge my, or anyone else's, gaming habits, based on weather or not it has a GNU attached to it.. While I have the temerity to pat someone like this on the head and give them a LFS installation to keep them busy for awhile, that's going to turn off - rather, already HAS turned off - a large part of the community that would look towards Linux as a viable alternative to paying $400 a pop to Microsoft everytime they are determined to be a pirate. That cannot happen; having to search forums is hard enough on the average end user, you think they want to be told that they're too stupid to run Linux when they finally get there?

Until these two very basic things are taken care of, I will continue to dual-boot XP and Kubuntu. And that means I will still spend the majority of my time in XP, as the benefits of using Kubuntu, to me, are offset by the fact that I am a certified expert in all things Microsoft as it is, and therefore, my expertise eliminates 95% of the problems your average end user has with the OS. Why load Windows just to play a game when I can literally use it for everything I need?

Cedega does not cost $5/mo

The article incorrectly states that Cedega costs $5/mo to use. The $5/mo is a subscription to the website, which allows access to the precompiled binaries and copy protection code, as well as voting in the "what games to support better" polls. You can pay $15 once (3 months), get a 3 month subscription, and use the program forever. It does not "expire" at the end of the 3 months, you just cant download new versions any more.

Video editing problems

I read his comments about his negative experience with Kino. I wonder why he didn't just install LiVES from getdeb.net ?

Usuability counts!!

I was a little confused how to take screenshots and create a text file at first, but I checked the applications list and found applications called "Take Screenshot" and "Text Editor." Doesn't get much more obvious than that.

Someone has been taking their usuability studies seriously...

Funny how a little designing goes a long way...

Ben

That good? I don't think so...

After touching Linux for over 5 years and having had Gentoo on servers and on desktop couple of times, and tested out a dozen other distribution in the past years and using Linux daily on server operating, I just gave Ubuntu a shot just some weeks ago.

Boy... how is this supposed to be called the most famous distro?

Sure, it installs pretty painlessly graphically and not like needing to wait half a day for Gentoo to comiple the entire desktop suits, which was good.

Now I reboot, happily goes into my own desktop. Ok, first, I want to watch a DVD... err, imcompatible file format? what?... ok fine... let me Google... ok, I found out Ubuntu keeps things cleanest as possible to avoid problems in certain countries which simply puts majority of people away by having these functions off by default, why can't Ubuntu let user answer couple of questions at install time... if the user lives in a place where s/he can watch DVD s/he owns on his/her computer (which sounds just damn straight nonsense to even question about), then install a DVD playable Totem or something or Goggles or Ogle or whatever.

Now I read through their documentation about enabling DVD... wow... I can't... It tells me to install couple of libraries, of one of them, I could, the other one, even adding that apt source, nope... What's going on? The package the doc says to install doesn't even exist!... Now, I'm more of the experienced Linux user than average Joe, but come on, I can't even do, then no average users can. Good luck really making Linux reach to end users. They don't edit sources.list by hand and type some magical apt-get line on unknown shell application, I'm sure.

Ok, don't blame I just complain without knowledge, because you're blaming every single average Linux trying users out there, because they will certainly have less patience and knowledge about Linux to get this done. If I can't do it in 5 minutes, 95% average users will give up.

Ok, I gave up DVD watching, now how can I listen to my flac collection? hmm can't even play mp3? although the files are already associated with some applications... my patience is up, good bye Ubuntu, hello Gentoo =)

Gentoo works if you know what you're doing, add some USE flags about DVD/flac, things work. Ubuntu otoh, is just simply broken for either side, average users won't get it, experienced users neither get it, unless only experienced in Ubuntu itself.

This is NOT Gentoo is better Ubuntu is worse claim. JUST pointing out Ubuntu didn't work, thus concluding that Ubuntu penetrating average users isn't coming too soon.

Now, just a few suggestions...

Ask users at the installation point whether they can install DVD players at the least... If average user thinks, Linux can't play DVD, can't play mp3, isn't what they're used to, then they won't come back for the next 5 years.

And why is it not Thunderbird but Evolution? Does that mean it targets business users? Come on... home users don't want a big fat all in one Evolution but easy working Thunderbird or Sylpheed... Also, people do install Linux on their lower end machines, because many don't just infiltrate their primary machine with unexperienced OS, so get lighter packages default please...

At least the good thing was Japanese fonts were preinstalled and did render web sites properly, though it wasn't my favourite font.

After all the hype about Ubuntu, I'm rather not stepping on it. Please at least fix the docs so experienced users at least feel like using it to make it reach end users. I'm all for hoping Linux to become the real alternative to other OS's, but I see it's not happening this year.

He installed Flash the hard way.

I read the article and came up to the Flash install section and I did a WTF?! When you browse to a site with Flash in FireFox, it gives you the missing plugin notice. You click that, and it tellS you that Flash isn't installed, would you like to do so? You hit ok, follow the prompts, and ta-da! It works. Why do people still do stuff the hard way? In several places in the article, he tries to do it the hard way (thinking that the easy way doesn't work right, I guess), fails, RTFM, does it the easy way and it works. This a bit late in this thread, but geez. Grandma would look at the top of the page and see the missing plugin notice an click there. She won't figure out that Adobe makes Flash, go find adobe.com, search for the Linux section, download the file, go to a command line and install it. AND SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO!

Arcane

[...] and there are some times you will be typing arcane commands into a terminal window, hoping for the program to do what you want.

Mwwwahaaaaa, I am a great magician! Your clothes are red!

Printable link

http://consumer.hardocp.com/articleprint.html?art= MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI= [hardocp.com]

Valid points

I'm an ardent Ubuntu user, but the guy does bring up some valid criticisms of the distro and Linux in general:

* 64-bit Ubuntu just sucks. No beating about the bush with this. Other 64-bit distros are just as bad. Until they sort out proper backward compatibility with 32-bit apps (hell, even Windows manages this) without having to resort to linux32 every time, 64-bit Linux has no chance.
* I'm not a Photoshop user and GIMP does me fine. However, I have heard from people that have gotten Photoshop to work more or less fine under WINE.
* There are a decent number of games for Linux. Granted, not the enormous selection available under Windows, and Cedega sucks big time, but there are enough to get you by. Still, hopefully WINE will get there eventually, I don't see Cedega making any big inroads anytime soon.

Rather knowledgeable compared to average consumer

Even after reading only the first three pages, I come off with the distinct impression that this "consumer" has been exposed to Linux before. At the very least, he read (and understood) an awful lot compared to what I would expect from your "average consumer". Look, for example, at his explanation of the history of software packaging for Linux.

Linux and hardware

A lot of people like to rag on Linux for having issues with hardware, but here's a challenge for you - find me an IR Adapter that runs on a current version (10.4) of Mac OS X.

I bought a device that was known to run on 10.1, but it flat out does not run on 10.4 on either the powerbook, the powermac or the Intel iMac.

In the end, I just plugged it into my Linux box and it works a treat.

What???

Linux not a "Programmer's OS anymore" ?? Okay, that's it. Pack you're stuff guys, we're moving to Hurd. Take portage with you, take Firefox, OpenOffice, and KDE with you. Leave Gnome behind. Sacrifices have got to be made. If we all make a consistent effort we can make it ready for the desktop in 5 years!

Still too rough around the edges.

I think the problem is not with Linux itself (the kernel) but with the concept of open source. Not to say open source software is poor quality by any means, but that the most of developers involved in creating this type of software seem to put very little emphasis on usability for non-geeks. To see this in Ubuntu, all you have to is go to the synaptic package manager and bring up any package. Most require two, five, ten, sometimes twenty different dependencies in order to function. Most people don't understand (or don't care to understand) why AbiWord requires abiword-common, libart-2.0-2 and libatk1.0-0 and that's if you have enough bandwidth to download them in a reasonable time period. Although the package manager does a descent job of locating and installing all of the required packages; uninstalling them without errors is hit and miss at best and then your stuck hand editing configuration files so that dpkg can can continue removing the remaining packages. NO ONE WANTS TO DO THIS!! On any modern day operating system, libraries (or any dependencies) should not be of concern to everyday users and so anything that begins with "lib" should not have to be dealt with by the user. Plain and simple. This is excatly why Linux will never be taken seriously by desktop users. Fancy icon and screen saver graphics and are not enough. Now it's time for some serious usability overhaul.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

I had a fun time with Ubuntu too, although my problem was a bit more tame: the installer won't load.

I've been told this is a "hardware" issue, but given that Debian, XP, and Vista work with it, I tend to blame whomever wrote the software.

Decent article. I've been trying to do the same, but I've kept a dual boot setup and am often tempted to boot back into windows instead of searching for solutions to things I already know how to do. Oh well...

Re:Obligatory karma hit

Wow, you got it to install? I couldn't get that far. If kept crashing in the middle. Fortunately, Debian didn't have such an issue. I was really wanting to get rid of Fedora and move to something using the Debian package system. And while my hardware wasn't spectacular, I expect a 700Mhz Thunderbird with 512MB RAM, 250GB HDD, and Radeon 7500 AGP video card to at least install even if I don't get great performance out of it.

The good news is that my wife really likes Debian's default WM and the packages I've installed in apt so now so she's not harping on me to get a licensed copy of Windows for that computer anymore. It looks like soon we'll be running Linux on our desktops and Windows on our laptops exclusively now.

That depends ...

... sorry, problem ain't on my end.

That depends upon what the problem is finally determined to be.

Since there is no way anyone else can diagnose your problem, you are free to make any claims you want to about it.

Meanwhile, your experience seems to run counter to the majority. I have installed Ubuntu on many machines without a single problem. Ubuntu does have problems installing at times, but mostly with SATA drives on specific chipsets in specific configurations.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

Here is *my* experience. http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=60672&v iew=findpost&p=1292270782 [revleft.com]

I had had trouble with Debian and Knoppix before, but Ubuntu installed like a breeze. I admit I'm not your average computer user, having used GNOME/X/GNU/Linux for a few years now.

Once I had Internet (which as I mentioned required knowing the name of the network in the default install, at least as far as I could tell), I quickly installed a very nice tool called "Wifi-radar" which picks up networks and connects. A pity this isn't installed by default.

I recommend Ubuntu, and for people who aren't happy playing around or who don't have much experience, having a friend or other person who knows a bit to hold your hand might be the way to go.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

Wait, was your problem really a faulty hard drive?

No, no, no, no, no. I have used that exact same hard drive without fail *on Windows* since the incident.

Most people who were on that forum or read it, smugly dismissed it as a hard drive problem because I had tried to install a hard drive that *actually was faulty* the week before. This was not the same hard drive. The people that blamed it on a hard drive error were just being idiots.

Now, it may have been a hard drive Ubuntu wasn't prepared for, but the hard drive itself is functioning as designed.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

4) Commands to diagnose the problem won't run.

Oh, and:

5) If you act like a spoiled jerk on a community-driven forum, stamp your little feet, and absolutely refuse to try any of their troubleshooting ideas or provide them with the information they repeatedly ask for, then they probably won't help you.

Yeah, I read the thread [ubuntuforums.org] where you "tried" to get help. Your take on the episode doesn't have a lot to do with what you actually posted at the time.

Moderators, before you mark me down, actually read the Slashdot thread he linked to. I'm not the one who initially pointed out his tantrums and complete refusal to help fix his own problem. I can't believe that he uses that thread as supporting evidence of why Ubuntu is broken.

Re:30 days of Vista?

Did I miss the 30 days of using Vista article, or has no one lasted that long yet?

People keep getting out to 28 or 29 days and then Microsoft issues an automatic set of patches that removes Vista "features" and totally invalidates their notes, so they have to start over.

Re:ya but

Sim City 3000 (happy penguin pay)
Tremulous: http://tremulous.net/ [tremulous.net] (Repositories free)
Legends: http://legendsthegame.net/ [legendsthegame.net] (download free)
Uplink: http://www.uplink.co.uk/ [uplink.co.uk]
Darwinia: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/ [darwinia.co.uk]
Defcon: http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/ [introversion.co.uk]

Don't assume they're all rubbish till you've actually played them. Preferably on Linux. (Except Sim City. Thats rubbish.)

Re:ya but

actually you can get quite a few newer games to work. Unreal has had Linux distros for a while. Wow can be made to work under WINE. The problem with most of these games is the setup time required to get it to run. Why spend an hour or two attempting to get WoW set up under linux when you can spend 5 minutes installing it under windows?

It's a catch 22. More people would use Linux if the games were there. But the games aren't there because not enough people use linux.

For the record (before I get poo pood) I've had ubuntu and mandrake on 2 seperate comps. My laptop (3-4 years old) runs everything just fine. My desktop (2 years old) did not have driver support for what I have in it, and most likely will not receive driver support (Soundblaster X-fi sound card). Not to mention the config editing I had to do to get the Nvidia 6800 to work.

As a hobby Linux is fine. You won't get the gaming freaks to switch over any time soon.

Re:ya but

Why spend an hour or two attempting to get WoW set up under linux when

Yeah, I mean, who ever spends a whole hour or two on WoW? It's not like an hour or two setting it up would merely be a drop in the bucket compared to the RL-ignoring relationship-destroying thousands of hours you'll spend in WoW...

Re:ya but

blockquote> And here you have stated the problem perfectly.... Linux is for the guy who has no problem spending a few HOURS to get something working. People who want the machine to just do it with a minimal amount of effort use something else.

Not true. Ubuntu installs very smoothly, and if you don't mind paying for Cedega, Cedega and the games it supports also install very quickly, easily and smoothly. Installing firefox was a lot harder. Or installing WinXP. Or those very same games on Windows, even. Seriously, for gaming, Ubuntu+Cedega is as easy as you could hope for, annd it gives you a lot more control than you'd have in Windows.

Re:ya but

Linux used to be a hobby for me. For a few years linux was on the fence and one could fall off quite easily. Today though Linux has really matured. The biggest problem still exists--the linux zealot. They kill Linux, they harm the community, and the completely stifle growth on the desktop. The Linux community should shun them hard. They are like an outdated car. They are more broken than they are worth. It's best to move past them instead of trying to fix them. You can't appease a Linux zealot--they are harmful just by their very existence. I think the BSD community needs them now, and they should relent to the desktop.

You know in reality this fanaticism toward total open source is just ridiculous. On the one hand you see everyone saying Linux is only good if you are true open source while the majority say that they want quality commerical games and apps running under it. You can't have both. No one is going to release a commercial application or game as open source. So just consider the OS open source and get the applications/games running so the market share can grow.

I see the zealots holding everyone in a catch 22 with their false logic. We need development and yes that means comemrcial apps. Linux is just an OS. The applications and games are just applications and games. What benefits the users is more important then even open source. Never relinquish the open source product to the commercial venue but realize that the OS is just that, the OS. It is meant to be installed and forgotten. The users don't interact with the OS they interact with the applications and games. If you can get that through those zealot's thick skulls we'll have growth in the market. But that also means a real stand-alone universal distro applications installer.

It's about the USER not about the OS. Never has. These zealots have the same disease that Microsoft has -- OSitis. We, the users are the king. It is us that make or break you. It isn't about the OS. Your OS should provide the services to the apps and games so that we the users can benefit the greatest in the smallest amount of time.

All in all, I use Linux as my main box. My favorite game (Enemy-Territory) plays just fine on it. If I want to get any of my other games installed I can. Not that I can get them all but through Cedega or Wine I can. Keep in mind that there are quality commercial games out there such as Doom 3, Neverwinter Nights, Quake 3, UT2003/2004.

The problem here is DX9 and 10. It is a closed environment which requires a sizeable investment to learn and develop for. With Vista discontinuing support for OpenGL (even though OpenGL is still a widely competent and quality product) it makes it hard for developers to choose to target OpenGL even as a secondary target audience. These are efforts of a Monopoly power using tactics to close down its competition, clearly.

Re:ya but

"ugly amateur console-games like Nethack" Spoken by someone who has never played Nethack.

Re:ya but

Not necessarily true:

It may simply be spoken by someone who values big explosions and flashy effects over playability. (Face it... Nethack IS ugly. It also happens to be a good game, but that doesnt' change the fact that it's ugly.)

Re:30 days of Vista?

The fact that you can't see why the lack of those articles says more about Vista than Linux is funny...

Re:Obligatory karma hit

But when people recommend doing exactly what I already said I did several times ... sorry, problem ain't on my end.

Some did, others asked for actual pertinent information or for reasonable -- even if difficult given your situation -- action to assist them in diagnosing your problem for free. You refused them all regardless, saying "I shouldn't have to". Sorry bucko, you do have to, "should" and "should not" ain't involved. Don't know what your ultimate problem was, but a problem was definitely on your end, sitting in your chair.

Don't give me this crap about reading the posting guidelines only to be angered by the response. You were an asshat from the word "go", treated everyone like shit as if it was their fault you had the problem in the first place. What, you think you're entitled to free help no matter what kind of jerk you are? Walk into a Salvation Army or a free clinic with that kind of attitude and see how far you get, and they at least get paid to be there.

Sorry the ubuntu installer broke. Not sorry about what happened on the forum, because that was a completely and utterly predictable response to your own actions. As in your fault. You keep bringing it up as if anyone should feel sorry for you, and no one does for reasons that are plain as day.

Every day you continue to deny that you had anything to do with that is another day you deny yourself some basic growth as a human being.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

OK, let's see how you acted [ubuntuforums.org] on the Ubuntu free support forums:

Before you make this even more frustrating for me:

Nice way to ask for help. Sure makes me feel like giving you a hand (or maybe a boot up the ass). Mm-hmm.

I should never have believed all that crap about "providing access to all".

Useful information? Missing. Needless slagging off of OS you're purportedly trying to convert to? Check.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide in helping undo the damage Ubuntu has done.

I guess there wasn't quite enough needless slagging off yet.

I thought -- probably because of all the liberation/openness rhetoric of Ubuntu -- I wouldn't need Microsoft software to get Ubuntu to work.

And I guess he thought you were actually interested in recovering your PC instead of trolling the forums.

So in other words, you didn't read my first post, in which I said that the disc is fine and I've tried reinstalling multiple times. This just makes my day.

If this is how you act towards people you've never met who are trying to help you, I'd hate to work with you.

Don't see what difference that makes, given as I can't even get into Windows, and the problem is obviously due to GRUB. Seems like a fishing expedition there.

How about just giving him the fucking information he asked for? Too much to ask for some people, I guess...

Just yesterday I thought I knew what chutzpah was.
"Starting on the right foot" would include "not getting locked out of my computer because I installed a OS billed as 'Linux for Human Beings' ". "Starting on the right foot" would include finding instructions that answer the frequently asked question of "how do I set up a new partition and install to that partition?". "Starting on the right foot" would include an Ubuntu forum that doesn't take me a week of trying to access from different computers and connections before it consistently loads.
Stop making excuses. So I wouldn't answer what Windows version it is. Can anyone think of any reason why one version of Windows over another would cause GRUB error 25? No? Okay then.
The problem is not the devices, or the Windows version, or getting the latest install CD, or scratches on the install CD. The problem is the boot loader. The problem has already been diagnosed. You just want to chase all these wild geese because you don't want to admit that maybe this "access for all" OS has a serious problem.
Would somebody just tell me how to edit, modify, fix, whatever, the boot loader? That's all. It should be really simple, given the rigorous testing that they would put a software capable of locking you out of your computer through.

Sheesh. You actually expected that to make people want to help you more than they were already?

Re:Obligatory karma hit

1) Ubuntu (HIGHLY) recommends unnecessary bootloader.

Are you recommending that ubuntu should not use a bootloader? How in the world is it supposted to boot? I know you can make an active partition and boot that way, but grub seems many times better too me.

2) Bootloader messes up and freezes so I can't debug it there.

Yeah, that stinks.

3) File that must be fixed can't be accessed from the install CD.

What kind of file can't be accessed from the install CD? AFAIK, anything on your machine should be accessible and editable from the install CD — provided you give it the correct commands.

4) Commands to diagnose the problem won't run.

I don't know what you used so I can't help here.

Re:ya but

It also runs stuff such as Flightgear (http://flightgear.org) which kicks Microsoft Flight Sim in the ASS. Not because of nicer graphics, but because you can do such cool stuff with it because it's open. Like use a webcam to get headtracking (instead of buying a $200 IR device) and just about every other cool thing you can think about.

I think we need more linux game developers, and for them to develop games that truly surpass anything available under Windows.. as soon as we have really cool stuff that's not available under windows we can get the hardcore people to at least double boot.

Re:Obligatory karma hit

Well, Ubuntu Dupe, I read the thread.

You were asked what your hardware setup was -- including motherboard. I did not see any answer to this question.

I don't know if this was related to the problem, but I would certainly suspect it could be. You have a 1250MHz Athlon -- that's about a 1400+ or 1500+, correct? The sort of motherboard that would accept such a processor might not have BIOS support for >137GB disks

And you had your installation on a 200GB disk, correct?

So, I don't know if I have hit on the solution. You have not revealed it (why not unless you are just a troll?), but YOU FAILED TO ANSWER A CRITICAL question.

You were also rude, which is hardly a way to get help. In fact, I don't think you really wanted a solution -- you just wanted an excuse to complain about Ubuntu. That's why you have not revealed what the eventual solution was.

Re:30 days of Vista?

I know of one person who returned a computer within 15 days because Vista would not run or install basic VOIP software.

Re:Hi....I'm Anonymous Coward, and I'm a Windows U

Good post! Both witty and insightful at the same time. Around here, that's like finding a nice olive in your salad, (if you like olives, which I do.)

--And if you had posted with a "real" name, I'd have modded you a +1 Something since I have Mod points today. Because, you see, I'd rather spend a point raising a good comment to a higher viewing level AS WELL AS raising the poster's karma. When you spend a mod point on an AC's post, you don't boost his/her Karma. (Well, not the digital Slashdot kind at any rate.) So instead, I'll just post this little note.

-FL

Re:ya but

Sure. Oh, you meant ones that do not suck greasy cocks ... no, sorry; it only does ugly amateur console-games like Natheck and Hangman.

Install Cedega. It's not Open Source, but it does come in a nice and friendly .deb package, and it runs a reasonable number of my favourite games perfectly. In a way, the installation, starting the game and running it in a window instead of a stupid fullscreen mode, works even easier and smoother than on Windows.

For some games, that is. Others just don't install or install but don't work properly.

Re:I switched to Linux

-Crashes so much that I'm tempted at times to switch back to windows.

I've heard some people get to experiance that, but in all the time I have been running Ubuntu, I have had the oposite experiance. The wife's XP machine was the worst for a while. It's root cause was Flash 9. Backgraded to Flash 8 to fix 95% of the crashes on that machine. I've heard lots of problems with Flash 9 on Linux also. Have you installed Adobe Flash?

Even with the Flash 9 on Mozilla on XP resolved, the Ubuntu box is still the most stable box in the house. The only times I recall it going down is when we shut it off for the night.

The unstable machines are the Windows 98, Windows 2K and Windows XP machines in that order. I would not consider the Ubuntu machine unstable at all.

Have you tried another distro?

Re:I was one of these converts

Gaming - I am learning to live without

Why? I don't.. I have more than one PC.

For safe internet browsing, photo editing, and office applications, I use Ubuntu. For games, I use the Windows 98 machine.

Re:I switched to Linux

Cons:
-Crashes so much that I'm tempted at times to switch back to windows. Of course this might just be Fedora that I'm using, but I've noticed KDE and GNOME both to be pretty unstable.

Really? I've never had any Gnome instability problems in Ubuntu. I can't recall having *any* crashes *ever*, actually. Only with Windows, or with older linux distros.

-Software installation is improving with the likes of yum, but many software packages still require endless reading of documents and setting flags for configuration files etc.

On Ubuntu, I had a problem installing firefox 2 (which doesn't come in a .deb package), but I've never had any trouble whatsoever with anything in a .deb.

My advice: give Ubuntu a try if Fedora isn't working for you.

Re:30 days of Vista?

Most people have put "30 days of Vista" off until after they finish "Two Years Before the Mast" [gutenberg.org] and 120 Days of Sodom [barnesandnoble.com].

Re:ya but

Yeah, the usual ones: all the stuff from Id Software (Quake 1-4, Doom 1-3, Wolfenstein), UT2k3, Neverwinter Nights (the original, and its expansions), Darwinia and Uplink, and the run-off-the-mill patience, majhongg, tetris, sokoban &c., besides the ones ported by Loki (Soldier of Fortune, Kohan I [GREAT RTS], Rune &c.) and by Icculus (America's Army up to version 2.5.0 among others).

Re:We're not switching to Linux anytime soon

What on Earth are you on about man? Your laughable attempts at stringing together a coherent comment bely your ignorance. Really, why do people bother?

"...it's never served any purpose at a satisfactory level for me and I do everything with a PC you can possibly imagine from graphics, video, games, programming, web design, chat, email, office tasks, research, etc"

If you do indeed use your PC for every possible task please try the dictionary, thesaurus and grammar checker.

Re:ya but

What the hell does he mean "product activation issues". It has nothing to do with product activation. It is about their DRM, their impertinent invasion of your privacy by invading your home to police you to check to see if you haven't stolen their goods.

They are performing the equivalent of a unchecked home searches upon your goods because everyone is a thief until you prove (over and over -- endlessly) that you didn't steal their goods. You are a thief first and a temporary user second.

Why on earth are you attempting to hide the fact that this is about them violating your privacy entering your home and doing search and seizure without a warrant or any checks and balances from the legal system.

When Microsoft uses DRM and/or activation they are invading legitimate people's homes (because your computer is an extension of your home) with complete and total accusation that you are a thief.

The police can't enter your home and search your belongings without a warrant. You are allowing a private entity enter your home to search it because the richest men in the world feel that they are loosing a grip on their dominance and want more time to divest their fortunes into other companies. Yes, I'm saying that Microsoft is loosing it and Gates/Ballmer want more time to sell their stock and reinvest in other companies because when the bottom falls out of Microsoft they don't want to loose their vast fortunes.

Re:We're not switching to Linux anytime soon

Hey man, I have issues with XP and Vista, and it's not through lack of very basic knowledge. It's because the damn thing puts on airs. Better than. It pretends to know better than I what I want to do. I cut and paste in a document, and it puts an icon directly over the text I'm trying to edit, and doesn't give me instructions on how to change it. I click on a document on the web -- while I have 10 browser windows open, 4 Word files, a specialized text editor, a media player, and a graphics editor running -- and it decides it's a PDF, so it kicks up Adobe. Adobe kicks up, decides it needs an update, and decides the best way to get it is to change the focus. So it halts the whole damn browser, and puts a mandatory "Yes/No" dialog box underneath all the windows on the desktop, and which doesn't appear on the task par, and all for an update I can't run, because it requires installing files that are on part of the network I don't have access to.

Then I have issues with the programs that change the focus correctly, so they alert me to a non issue. Hey, I'm trying to work here! Maybe I should find out who gave the OS the right to bother me, and call them up every time I curse at the computer.

I've got issues with the registry hive being one giant memory leak. Why do does the PC need to remember every single configuration of my wireless cards, especially the ones I never got to work?

I've got issues with the computer deciding to allow programs to run at startup without asking me, then yelling at me when I disable them.

I've got issues with Word deciding, on the basis of properties I don't have access to, what language a document is written in, even after I turn off auto-detection, (because I'm the funking philologist here, not this bucket of bolts that thinks Portuguese was at some point the language of the University of Paris), and then applies auto-correction schemes in the clearly wrong language. Don't like it? No problem. Just dig out your install disk with support for the language we're auto-correcting in, and you'll be able to disable it. What? You bought an English version?

So, yes, I've got 'issues' with XP or Vista, and with the way many programs use the OS to lord it over me. I am the God, not the computer: and if you believe differently, then that is the basic knowledge you lack. The computer is not some capricious Zeus, firing thunderbolts at My Documents and siring children with my wife.

Re:I was one of these converts

WoW has been running exceptionally well in vanilla Wine for quite some time now. Recent versions (0.9.18 to current - 0.9.31 is particularly nice, and I see 0.9.32 is out already) are very nearly glitch-free. I play quite regularly on Linux, actually.

As for other games, you'll just have to petition the publishers to add Linux to their regular cross-platform plans - perhaps point out that porting to Linux is little different from Mac OS X.