Pre-Installed Linux On Dells Coming

When Michael Dell took back the reins of he company he founded, one of the first things he did was to launch the feedback site Dell Idea Storm. Following up on the recent Slashdot discussion of the early results of this experiment — an overwhelming expressed desire for pre-loaded Linux — Dell reports on what it plans to do with this feedback. Quoting: "[W]e are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. [On the question of which distro to choose:] "[T]here is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux... We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line."

Which distribution does not matter.

As long as "Linux" has the drivers for the hardware. That's all that matters.

Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows!

Dell is paying consumers to use Windows! The exact same Dell Latitude D520 Notebook costs $48 MORE if it comes with no operating system than if it comes with Windows. Here are the specs and links to Dell's online shop:

Processor: Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo T5500 (1.66GHz) 2M L2 Cache, 667Mhz Dual Core
LCD Panel: 14.1 inch XGA LCD Panel
Memory: 512MB, DDR2-533 SDRAM
Hard drive: 60GB 5400RPM
Modular Bay Optical: 8X DVD
Wi-Fi Wireless Card: Dell Wireless(TM) 1390 802.11g Mini Card
All other options: set to "none".

The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747.

So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten, and I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't going to end up in an anti-trust lawsuit against Dell and Microsoft.

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

"The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747.

So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! That's hardy Linux friendly or even consumer friendly. It's downright rotten,"

All major brand-name computers come with a ton of crapware pre-installed. Why do you think they do that? Because they get PAID to put in there. When you eliminate Windows, you also eliminate the extra revenue from pre-installed crapware.

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

I guess they'll just have to port all the crapware to linux too!

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

Well, you can get RealPlayer for linux. The only downside is the linux version doesn't nag you.
I remember in the early days of WINE I tried to install Bonzi Buddy just for kicks. Locked up the machine hard.
Enough with all this 'open-source'. Give me my MSN Messenger with malware banner ads!!

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747. So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned!

So Dell is saying that the presence of Windows degrades the value of a computer? I can't argue with that.

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

Congratulations, sir. You've just shown to me just how important the frame of mind is. I'm taking a lesson from this, one almost worthy of the Tao of Computing.

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

Umm... that system you linked to is $669. Maybe they've changed it after you linked it to make you look foolish!

To compare apples to apples, you must change the hardware options on the no-OS laptop to match those found by default on the Windows laptop: Hard drive and Modular Bay Optical. Then you'll see that the laptop without an OS is $48 more expensive.

Re:Dell's laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windo

"Why does everyone insist that it doesn't come with an OS? It clearly states that it comes with FreeDOS."

The DVD box for Episode I claims to have 6 hours of entertainment....

Re:Which distribution does not matter.

Exactly! If I can purchase a laptop from a company knowing it will all just work out of the box in Linux, they will have my business almost immediately.

Re:Which distribution does not matter.

As long as "Linux" has the drivers for the hardware. That's all that matters.

It's my understanding that the dilema for Linux is that device manufactures are reluctant to have their hardware designs exposed in Linux code, therefore they usually don't give out their specs to Linux developers.

Even if OEMs were willing to offer the same non-disclosure agreements to Linux developers as they offer to Windows developers, with the understanding that these developers distribute binary-only drivers, you'd still have the problem that Linus and the core kernel developers have said many times they're never going to go out of their way to support backward compatibility of binary drivers. Any such support would inhibit the free development of the kernel.

But apps in Linux depend not only on your kernel version but many other things: what desktop you're using (some apps compile differently for gnome than they do for kde), what libs you have, not only if you have gtk, but what version.

All this is great for a hacker like me. But the problem for Dell will be in choosing from the gazillions of combinations that make GNU/Linux what it is.

I say, good luck to them. But it's not going to be easy if your customers just expect everything to be like it is in a Windows world.

For real?

If dell keeps this up for any amount of time, we could see a large upswing in the usage of linux on the desktop. Here's to this being more than a pipe dream.

Re:For real?

Now only if there will be enough people actualy requesting it to make then want to keep offering it.

It would be a real slap in the face for Michael Dell if after all the support for linux installed computers was shown on the ideas website, and the company taking steps to do so, and then find out there isn't really a demand for them.

Let's hope there are enough customers doing more then saying they are interested to keep this going.

We've been down this path before.

It would be a real slap in the face for Michael Dell if after all the support for linux installed computers was shown on the ideas website, and the company taking steps to do so, and then find out there isn't really a demand for them.

#1. The "support" has to include ALL the hardware on the box.

#2. The boxes have to be the most popular boxes Dell sells already.

#3. The price cannot be higher than the equivalent Windows box.

We've already seen "support" which doesn't include everything in the box, which only includes boxes that most people wouldn't buy in the first place and which, for some reason, cost MORE than buying the same box with Windows.

That's just a ploy to "show" that "no one" really wants Linux on the desktop. Fuck Dell. We've heard it before. If they're really serious this time, it's up to them to demonstrate that.

Re:We've been down this path before.

What if the price differnce is spent in making sure the linux works on everything? I mean Dell forks a Distro, setd up maintainers, brands it themselves and you have the option of Dell linux or MS windows for the same price?

From a recent post by a Dell guy on the Fedora Advisory Board list [redhat.com], I get the impression that Dell isn't in a hurry to fork a distro even just for re-branding. And that's juuuust fine by me. I don't care what distro they offer, so long as the hardware can be made to work with any Linux distro.

If that means a Dell repo with some proprietary drivers, that's fine with me (for now). I wouldn't want Dell to offer ATI or nvidia hardware only for Windows configurations.

Re:The "Not Ready for Prime Time" OS

Let's see if we can let some wind out of your sails...

Linux on the desktop will always be a pipe dream. Why? Because Linux refuses to address it's fundamental deficiencies. How many decades longer will it take to get a real installer package which works on every distro?

There is an installer that works on every (and I mean EVERY) distro. Unlike windows, Linux distros includes all the software in one location generally called a software repository. If all else fails, there is always "./configure && make && make install". It isn't that hard.

How many decades longer will it take to get the OS to auto-detect and auto-configure new hardware? How many decades longer does Linux need to spend looking at the distant taillights of Windows 95?

Hell, Windows XP doesn't even do that. If it wasn't for "idiot disks" made by manufacturers the average Joe Sixpack would be just as screwed when the malware ate his system. I have udev installed and it works just fine. I don't know what your problem is.

But on the positive side, Linux wins hands-down in the "air of undeserved superiority" department, and it also has more text editors than any other OS. When you have tens of thousands of options for text editing, it seems you really don't have to worry about getting it to work as well as Win95 did.

Well let's just look at what you get with an "out of the box" Windows XP install shall we...

You get paint, notepad, wordpad, solitare, Internet Explorer & Outlook Express, a broken media player and a calculator. That's it. I bet you can be real productive with those...Last time I looked in my distro's repository I had over 40,000 programs spanning 150 categories.

Dell's overtures toward Linux are nothing more than a bargaining chip in it's licensing fees with Microsoft. Consumers don't care about/for Linux, they just want something they know and can use. If someone drops a few hundy on a new PC then finds out they can't go to Best Buy to get software for it, that's going to be one pissed off consumer.

That may be. Only time will tell. That is one downfall to Linux is software availability in stores like Best Buy. Here you have a chicken and egg thing going on....Not enough users of Linux demanding stores carry software (mostly because it is readily available all over the Internet) and stores thinking there is no demand for it (which isn't necessarily true either). As for a customer using Windows software in Linux you are discounting the possibility of virtualization. If setup properly, by the manufacturer, then that takes away that argument.

B.

I hope Ubuntu is an option.....

I hope Ubuntu is an option. First, because it's a stable and easy to install distribution and it just works. I have installed it on a number of platforms and have been very pleased. Its package management system is awesome. I don't have the broken dependency issues I use to have with Fedora/Red Hat.

Second, it has both versions available to the public for free being the Long Term Support release and the more bleeding edge. Unlike Red Hat, Ubuntu is willing to "eat its own dog food." Even on the more bleeding edge releases of Ubuntu I don't get the impression that I am running a broken beta release like I did on Fedora.

Third, if you want to utilize it within the workplace you can sell it to management that there is official support available via Canonical, although there are other means of support as well. In addition it has already gained commercial acknowledgement through vendors such as Sun, IBM, and MySQL etc.

Last, but not least because it's completely free Dell can install it on a system and not have to add the associated cost of a license. Perhaps let the user make a donation for each installation of Ubuntu?

Re:I hope Ubuntu is an option.....

Ubuntu have an OEM version which would make life much easier for Dell.

Beside, Canonical is providing support for Ubuntu.

Re:I hope Ubuntu is an option.....

Ubuntu makes very good sense for Dell to distribute, especially since they've licensed Click'n'Run [slashdot.org] from Linspire. Should make the average user's life easier when they want to listen to /watch their media files, besides Ubuntu being a great desktop distro.

Kudos to Dell - let's hope they're willing and able to do this right.

Soko

Re:I hope Ubuntu is an option.....

Just yesterday I was looking at getting a new laptop, and was dismayed because everything came with Vista. I am not an early adopter, I'm possibly a luddite compared the /. crowd. However, I've heard more good things about Ubuntu than any other Linux version, I would rather buy a laptop with Ubuntu than Vista. So, give mainstream America another two years to catch up to where I am, and your dreams of Microsoft falling may be realized.

Yeah, right.

Just watch. They'll put Linux on one overpriced laptop, won't make it cheaper than the version with Windows and Office, and will hide the order page for it. Then they'll claim the market doesn't want Linux.

Because if they do more than that, Microsoft will cut their discount.

Dell used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.

Wal-Mart used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.

HP used to have a Linux laptop. They discontinued it.

Re:Yeah, right.

I more than share your concern and am a Linux devout myself. However rather than whining, dont you think we should believe in free-market theory?

HP/Dell can do whatever they want, MSFT can play its tricks withing legal limits. If linux deserves it and is really needed, someone will start offering it soon.

IMHO, so far OSS have been bogged down by bad user experience. We are at juncture where its changing. Look at Ubuntu frenzy.

I wish Vista crams more DRM and they discontinue anything but $500 enterprise ultimate editoon (or whatever its called). And, Dell and HP dont offer any thing in Linux. That way one day when I am looking for new job, I can create Linux-only-Dell :-)

Bottom line -- we should stop whining and making the user experience better and better.

Re:Somebody set up us the lack of demand

Do you honestly think a company like Wal-Mart, who will argue with a vendor for MONTHS about 2 extra inches of floor space being allocated to their product line, is going to spend the TIME, RESOURCES and MANPOWER to get these in and then not advertise them? I remember the advertising for the Wal-Mart Linux laptops. There was no shortage of it. But the bottom line is they didn't sell. Customers didn't want it. So, Wal-Mart being a business, they got rid of it. The same way they get rid of the potato chips that don't sell and bring in another brand that does. Business is about business and what makes money. You can claim all the reasons you want about why it didn't sell, but at the end of the day they are no longer there because very few people bought them. Wal-Mart could give a rats ass whether it was a Linux laptop, Windows desktop, bag of pretzels or a bottle of bleach.

Re:Yeah, right.

Part of why the Windows desktops are cheaper is because of the insane amount of crap sponsored to be put on there. A bit like advertisements keeping certain things free (for better or worse). So of course if they go and sell a machine without those (not many crapware marketing in the *nix world), they have to make up the difference somehow, either by raising the price, either on only putting it on high profit margin desktops. Sucks, but thats how it works.

Re:Yeah, right.

No, thats the thing. The anti-spywares, anti-viruses, etc...Dell don't pay for that. They MAKE money on it: the users don't even WANT it, if they could keep the same profit margin without putting it on, they would, as they'd sell more. For all practical purpose, putting Windows on the box actually ends up with a negative price tag , something that right now, even "free" linux can't beat.

Got my Linux on Dell years ago

http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/dell/ [emperorlinux.com]
Several other good manufacturers, to boot.
Rock solid, hard drive laid out to your taste, including dual boot configurations with that lesser operating system.
My biggest quibble is they don't Gentoo, but if you're batty enough to run that (like me) you probably know what to do. ;)

Crapplets

I do appreciate Dell doing this. Really, I do.

But I fear the coming of the Linux Crapplets. I fear what happens when AOL starts placing icons on my Gnome desktop.

And I pray that Dell does the right thing and drops the crapplets -- insist that they stop paying per machine sold and start just paying for Windows licenses sold, and use the money saved there to avoid preloading random crap other than the OS.

Why not Gentoo...

This would give the best range of options for desktops... giving a high degree of quality as well since everything is custom compiled from source.

FCC

When Dell decided to follow through with the Idea Storm idea I was reminded of something that happened after the Super Bowl a couple years back and keeps happening occasionally. Something will happen on TV or radio and about 20 people from Focus on the Family will freak out about it and complain to the FCC over and over again. The FCC then freaks out and does something stupid like increasing censorship or fines. Similarly when the dedicated Linux community decided to take over Idea Storm they should've been ignored as they are simply an extremely vocal minority. That Dell is considering wasting that money is a sign that Dell is desperate and instead of making better looking or cheaper computers they will instead cater to the extremist elements in the IT society. It's too bad. I really like my Dell but if they are going to waste their resources on this fruitless endeavor then I'll take my money elsewhere.

Re:FCC

Why is it bad for them to focus on a niche? It doesn't preclude them also making better looking or cheaper computers.

Moreover, if they become a solid Linux vendor, they'll be able to pick up a lot of high-margin sales pretty easily. There's plenty of professionals using Linux on some pretty pricey hardware. It doesn't take much volume to make up for the effort if it's high-end workstations you're talking about, and getting the hardware certified with major Linux distros would allow them to keep a lot of the OS-related costs that currently go to Microsoft.

It's not going to save the company, but it does have the potential to be a profitable niche.

They can start ..

.. by listening to their customers who want quality computers that do not break down and also bundle poor support.

I did a consulting job for help desk at a gaming company and more than always it was odd dell desktops and laptops that had issues or had very bad drivers. Dell loves to modify their video hardware so vanilla nvidia and ati drivers wont work. Sometimes new laptops have drivers from 2005 that wont run many games properly and no recourse to upgrade the drivers.

Also I have never seen techs load tcp/ip stacks on systems that fail to authenticate to a domain controller. Sound odd? It happens with Dell corporate desktops. At a former college they had a guy whose sole job was to run around with a diskette that had the proprietary tcp/ip stack .dll files for failing Dell pcs. Incredible!

dell playing to the microsoft/novell patent-troll?

As if anyone needs reminding, the caption in Dell's ideas in action [dell.com] page says "Dell recommends Windows Vista(TM) Business." Will Dell soon be recommending Novell's distro, together with its nonesensical patent-indemnification FUD?

users can "help define the market"

We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems.

Gee. Thanks, Dell! We users wouldn't be able to define the market on our own without your permission.

Vanilla "Linux"?

I certainly appreciate the idea here, and hope they're doing this for the right reasons (not some of the cynical-but-possibly-true ideas posted in this thread elsewhere). But I've never known two Linux users who preferred the same setup. Ubuntu here, Redhat there, BeOS, OpenBSD, and so on. I'm a Windows guy for the most part, but have run installations of all of these here and there over the years. I don't quite know how they're going to implement something like this and please much of anyone. With Windows or OSX, you get one default installation and you adjust it cosmetically a little bit (though at the OS level it's pretty much the same). With all the flavors of Linux, you can set it up almost any way you want.

It's great that the system cost might be lower if the Windows tax isn't applied, but is anyone who prefers Linux really going to use whatever comes installed? Most will wipe it as soon as they get it, just like you would if you ordered a Windows box/laptop. I think what would be nice (though certainly not a productive business model for Dell) would be to step up their options for OS-free machines and then put the energy otherwise spent on Linux installations on creating a repository of drivers for ALL platforms for their hardware. That way you could install whatever the hell you want but have some help with the hardware fun that all Linux users spend so much time on.

Linux users, for the overwhelmingly large part, seem to me to be roll-your-own types, and fairly advanced in their understanding of stuff like this compared to their Windows (and even OSX) counterparts. So why not work with that instead of making this "Linux alternative" option viable?

You can already get...

RHEL on Precision workstations. I noticed them on the Dell site several weeks ago.

And we had a story a couple of months back about getting Linux on their "E" series systems (IIRC).

distribution choice

I don't care what distribution they settle on, as long as they don't rely on proprietary drivers. From my POV if it is running some kind of mainstream Linux distro, the odds that my preferred distro will work are very much higher.

Wow; Mike likes to sell computers.

That is what is I call leadership. This guy is about as different from other CEOs as Steve jobs was from all of his predecessors; they were loved by wall street, but hated by the customers.

Finally Dell does something right...

Burning down houses and forcing IT guys to clean up systems with 128 MB of RAM only tops my list of complaints with Dell. At least Linux won't be as memory intensive as Windows so that being said I hope we don't see (further) stagnation in increasing the minimum amount of RAM in their bottom line.

NOVELL ???

I always get my medications from the Borgias , why do you ask?

  No wonder MSFT is not objecting to Dell selling non windows machines ( if in fact they did not).
Did Novell know this when they signed on with MSFT?
Will anything be available but SUSE?

A scenario: Dell sells SUSE exclusively, SUSE degrades because of FOSS comm. dislike and GPLv3.
  MSFT says "I told you it wasn't vey good, use an OS supported by professionals".

If...

If Dell does start offering preinstalled linux (big IF) I would guess they would go with one of the more "user-friendly" distros ie Ubu or SuSE. Anyone who would use something else probably knows enough to install it themselves. Or maybe they could bundle a CD/DVD of your distro of choice? Its just sad that a company has to be on the verge of bankruptcy to start looking at alternatives to lock-i