Stallman Convinces Cuba to Switch to Open Source 582
prostoalex writes "It's a big victory for Richard Stallman in North America, as Cuba decided to adopt open source software on the national level. Both Cuba and Venezuela are currently working on switching the entire government infrastructure to GNU/Linux operating system and applications, the Associated Press reports from Havana: 'Both governments say they are trying to wean state agencies from Microsoft's proprietary Windows to the open-source Linux operating system, which is developed by a global community of programmers who freely share their code.' The AP article doesn't mention the distro used for government workers, but says that the students are working on a Gentoo-based distro."
Apologies in advance.. (Score:5, Funny)
Not surprising. (Score:2)
Re:Not surprising. (Score:4, Insightful)
MicroSoft sells copies of Windows to OEMS, see, maybe in Hong Kong, and it's the OEMs who sell them to Cuba. Stallman probably got Castro to switch to Linux by pointing out the new "feature" in Vista that lets M$ revoke driver priveleges at their pleasure. Imagine if GM had a lever in Detroit that could make all those mint-condition classic '57 Chevys in Cuba stop working.
Re:Not surprising. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yes, Linux is more secure if configured right, however, it's c
I will pay $1000 to (Score:2)
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Yes, I'm sure the loss of the Cuban goverment will badly damage Microsoft's bottom line.
Communist Spectre (Score:2, Insightful)
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Re:Communist Spectre (Score:5, Insightful)
Really a big win in North America? (Score:3, Insightful)
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That will just cause people who make decisions for the wrong reasons to shoot themselves in the foot, giving a competitive advantage to others.
OSS is communist? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Just in case it slipped your awareness, it is now nearly 2 decades that East Germany as a country vanishes from the world and became a part of what is now called Germany.
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Re:OSS is communist? (Score:5, Insightful)
GNU-licensed software is analogous to communism in the same way that public streets, utilities, libraries, and schools are. To avoid effectively being a communist, you should (a) refuse to accept any benefit of civilization unless you're paying full monopoly prices for them, and (b) refuse to contribute anything to society or the public good for which you're not fully and directly compensated. There must be no motivation other than greed.
If you create something of potential value to others, it is wrong to allow them to benefit from it without compensation. If you can't sell it, perhaps because market channels have been monopolized or are inaccessible or inequitable, then the only proper course of action is to destroy it. Wipe your disks and forget about it. If you allow your neighbor to use it, you may be taking money out of the pockets of deserving corporations and their shareholders.
Only then can we stamp out communism and keep the rights to software out of the undeserving hands of those who create it.
It's "collective property", so in a sense, *YES* (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would a form of communism work in the digital world but fail utterly everywhere else?
Because in the digital OSS world, you can "take" anything (modify it, change it, copy it, use it) without having to appropriate the original. Source code can be "collecti
Somewhat (Score:4, Interesting)
The truth is that only decent example of pure communism would be Israeli collectives. You can certainly argue that Linux is good communism, but I believe that it is really pure capitalism (without any gov intervention). The truth is that coders offer up ideas and code. They are rewarded with fame (name and code on-line) and if good, they will almost certainly pick up salaried positions. If they decide to become one of the huge number of OSS start-ups, they run a better than average chance (which is still not that high) of making money at it. In particular, most seem to ignore how Linus, Alan Cox, Larry Wall, etc have profited off OSS. As long as somebody remains at the top of their game, then they will be just fine. But if they do not stay on top, well they will be finished.
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USSR, Cuba, and even "communist" China were never good examples of communism. They are all totalitarian states. Yet in America, we call them communism.
The truth is that only decent example of pure communism would be Israeli collectives.
The simple and obvious conclusion is that communism simply doesn't work beyond small, dedicated, voluntary groups. The Marxist ideal of communism supplanting capitalism on any scale larger than "small village" is a crock of shit. I once had a very illuminating conversation with a former hippy commune dweller, who really laid out the folly of universal collectivism. His observation was essentially this:
In the 60's the idea of communes was popular. At a new collective you'd have a fairly representative cro
Communists and Stallman (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Communists and Stallman (Score:5, Insightful)
Leaving aside Hitler's dubiously documented vegetarianism, it is quite well documented that Churchill was a drunk who drank a bottle of brandy before he got out of bed every day. Does this mean that being a drunk has anything to do with his political philosophy?
People with faulty philosophies do make correct decisions sometimes, and people with sound philosophies are not immune from error.
In fact, the biggest problems with any political philsophy are going to be the things it ignores or discounts. It may be the selfishness of human nature, or it may be the prevelance of preventable in the human condition. It follows that it is quite possible for a grossly faulty philosophy to recommend a worthwhile course of action that a better one would not even consider.
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Here's another way of thinking about it. Suppose you have a great program you've written. I know you've written that program. Are you morally obligated to give it to me? Most Free Soft
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Perhaps of all the great statemen, Thomas Jefferson was the one whose behavior was least consistent with his philosophy; John Adams the most.
But in any case, I'm sure that Churchill's political position was preferable to Hitler's.
Re:Communists and Stallman (Score:4, Insightful)
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Communism is
Re:Communists and Stallman (Score:4, Insightful)
The issue is much broader and deeper than "capitalism". Quite seriously, I think that the monkeysphere theory [pointlesswasteoftime.com] explains this better. Regardless of the ideologies at play, when people who don't know each other and don't belong to the same community exchange goods and services, it's common not to worry much about the needs of the other party: each party is considered responsible for themselves. This is human nature, not "capitalism". There may be some relatively wealthy people who have the luxury of worrying about whether people they don't know are or aren't being exploited, but the average person really doesn't have that luxury.
What capitalism does is allow this general indifference to strangers to scale up, if you will: so that by handing over $1.99 for a pack of tube socks at Walmart, I can efficiently exploit child labor (etc.) in a foreign country that I don't know anything about, and unless I have an unusually well-developed conscience, I don't even have to think about it. So the vaunted efficiency of capitalism is also a major flaw: it's efficient, and that efficiency cuts both ways, amplifying the human attitude to people outside their own group (family, town, country, religion...)
These issues are rooted in human nature, and no ideology will overcome that on a large scale. If you want to deal with it, you have to build realistic ways of handling it into whatever system you're using. Neither communism nor capitalism does that.
Re:Don't know but sib post is perferct example! (Score:4, Insightful)
Capitalism IN Africa is not what is killing its people, but rather the disposition at which capitalism places African nations with little in the form of natural resources to exploit and export.
We, as a wealthy nation, don't bother ourselves with an African nation unless it produces something we want. In fact, we have no problem buying from them, as long as it's cheap and profitable for us (e.g. the monstrous diamond industry). Conversely, if it has nothing to offer us, we couldn't care less even if their illegal government is committing genocide against its own people (e.g. Darfur).
No, that doesn't bother us. What does bother us however, is a crime we didn't care about when happened 30 years ago because at the time ignoring it suited our business interests, but now we do because the dictator who did it wasn't co-operating any more, and was harming our business relationships in the region. I speak of course of Iraq's Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds 30 years ago. We not only "forgave" him, we propped him up, because he was co-operative and good for our business interests. When he changed his mind, we killed him and took over his country. But I digress...
Now, to bring this tangent back to the original discussion, I think what Stallman is doing is admirable.
He's bringing free software into nations where the average annual income is less than the average monthly income for a minimum wage earner in the United States, sometimes even far less. Does that mean those people should simply be left behind on the technological ladder? If you're a giant corporation, your answer would be yes, because it would keep you at the top. If you're a giant corporation like Microsoft, they're an opportunity. A "gift" of say, 3000 Microsoft Office licenses, looks good on paper, can even be tax deductable, and yet at the same time, in order for the recipient to actually use them, they have to shell out for those Windows licenses. That means, your gift was actually a trojan horse designed to fatten your bottom line.
Stallman however, doesn't have a bottom line, although I'm sure he gets paid for his time. He doesn't make money off software licenses, and he doesn't make money as the shareholder of a major software company. That means he's actually doing this because he believes in it, which is admirable.
While I understand that communism has a bad name, on paper it is a beautiful thing. But only on paper, as it doesn't work when humans are added to the equation. If only we could somehow hold on to the "equal opportunity" part and the "you deserve to get what you need" part of socialism, while throwing away the "you can't have more than that - we will decide what you need" part that has always been added to it where it's been practiced, while at the same time holding on to the "excel if you can" part of capitalism, we'd have a much better world. Of course, I also know that I will never see that world, as it would actually require us to stop being so damn selfish all the time.
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Trading with the "enemy" (Score:2)
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Free Software (Score:5, Insightful)
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Politically and PR tone-deaf (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey, maybe this is just the irrelevant concern of somebody who works in PR and marketing. But if you're trying to be the ambassador of a broad-based movement, you generally avoid making public appearances with anyone who's a polarizing figure on either side politically. (i.e., if you're with a charity that wants people of all parties to donate, you don't make public appearances with either Dick Cheney or Michael Moore.)
RMS is Free(TM) of course to make public appearances wherever he wishes in support of Free(TM) software etc. I'm just saying that the image of Stallman getting snuggly with Raul Castro and Hugo Chavez - other than being kind of physically gross - is not likely to assuage any US government or business fears about the ideals or politics behind the F/OSS movements. Free software seemed to be gaining some wide acceptance ... but RMS has just given the Bill O'Reillys of the world a powerful tool to shill Microsoft et. al. with once more. Again, it's his right to go ... but I think it's an exceedingly poor idea from a PR perspective. Then again, if RMS cared about PR, he wouldn't be RMS...
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Re:Politically and PR tone-deaf (Score:5, Insightful)
I completely disagree. The world is NOT the United States. The opinions of the citizens of the world about the fortunes of Cuba do not necessarily align with the opinions of the Republicans in America.
Many in the world believe that Cuba has been hurt more by the actions of the United States than by Castro. If you travel to Europe, you will likely hear a very different opinion of Castro and the history of Cuba.
And even in this country, many are changing their minds about who has caused the Cubans to suffer most.
So please don't confuse the PR perspective of the World from the PR perspective of the G.O.P.
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Many in the world believe that Cuba has been hurt more by the actions of the United States than by Castro. If you travel to Europe, you will likely hear a very different opinion of Cas
Re:Politically and PR tone-deaf (Score:4, Insightful)
The embargo is utterly ridiculous, it's an obsolete relic from the days of the red scare. Somehow the Republicans in the USA say how important the embargo is to force the end of communistic regimes, but they don't mention that we have absolutely no qualms about trading with China or Viet Nam, especially exploiting those countries for cheap labor.
Republicans also like to claim that the many Cubans trying to get out of the country to the shores of the USA prove how bad it is there, so we must keep the trade embargo up. Yet the fact we have Mexicans illegally trying to cross the border for the same reasons means we can maintain full economic and diplomatic relations with Mexico.
It's also ridiculous how hypocritical the right wingers are regarding illegal immigration. They think Mexicans coming in illegally must be deported, illegals here should be deported, yet Cubans that make it to shore should be granted immediate citizenship! And finally, just to prove how ridiculous our double standard is regarding Cuba with other nations - If anyone reading this knows of an illegal immigrant who wants to become a citizen, just have them wander over to Miami and claim they're a Cuban who just came off the raft, and they'll be granted citizenship within a few days!
Correction (Score:3, Informative)
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And Just How Did They Acquire MS Software? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Cuba, communism and stupidity (Score:4, Insightful)
I just have to say that anyone who thinks that Free Software is communistic because Cuba (and Venezuela) are using it are stupid. Firstly, Cuba is not communist. The USSR never claimed to be communist. Comments about Cuba being communist show the ignorance of the person saying them.
Secondly, if you refuse to use a superior (technologically, or because it's cheaper or whatever) option because "communists" are using it. Then you are stupid. Full stop.
Free Software is not about communism, if you read the FSF definition, you will notice that the software must not be restricted for *any* usage. That includes totalitarian regimes, or real communists living in a hippy commune somewhere. Free Software is about Freedom. And that means that Cuba is free to use it.
For a definition of "communism" or to find out more about "communism", see my "homepage".
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What matters is that there is a clump of neurons in our brains that encode "evil", another that encodes "good", and a whole bunch of others that represent words/concepts just waiting to be connected to one or the other. We go through life making most of those connections in a completely unconscious and uncritical way; in fact, the
New Distro (Score:5, Funny)
Download it today, comrade!
Pinkies (Score:2)
Oh goody... (Score:2)
Stallman shouldn't be dealing with thugs (Score:3, Insightful)
"Our goal is not revolution, or even the civil toppling of any political forces. All we seek is for the people to be allowed to choose what they want to read, and to be allowed to draw their own conclusions from that reading"
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Cuba isn't the worst non-democratic regime out there: I'd rather live in Cuba than in North Korea or Zimbabwe. However, the important thing is that there are governments out there that are serious about making the switch to Open Source; no matter their political orientation, it will demonstrate to the rest of the world that life without M$ is possible.
Yes, it's kind of depressing that a non-democratic, repressive government like Cuba's will likely
Re:Stallman shouldn't be dealing with thugs (Score:4, Funny)
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But what? You have nothing to back up your argument, but you like the idea anyway? A person in the US can read every book on that list if they want.
Funny you bring up DeCSS -- some people in the US have it on t-shirts. Do you think a person in Cuba could get away with wearing an anti-Castro slogan on a shirt?
Bill Gates has it wrong (Score:2)
But Bill doesn't seem to realise that Open Source is empowering, you can avoid all the DRM and government imposed restrictions present in Vista. Open Source is about freedom, so how can that be anything like communism?
There are many Linux based distributions, all different. surely having everyone running Windows more like communism?
Depressing obsession with "communist" (Score:2)
Investigate before posting (Score:5, Informative)
Silly recipe-sharers, jail is for dissenters! (Score:5, Insightful)
Again, very funny. Because the governments of Cuba & Venezuela are both ALL ABOUT freedom of information for their citizens. Oh, except Venezuela is also cracking down on the freedom of the press, firing judges who dare to challenge its authority, and let's not forget prison conditions [hrw.org]... but other than that? Yays Open Sources!!!!
Not sure I entirely understand how Stallman isn't getting slagged for this, after Google got so roundly derided about its decisions to filter results in the China market... after all, Google is a company, interested in profits. Stallman professes to be all about idealism, and freedom, doesn't he?
No, I don't. (Score:3, Insightful)
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No, I'm not answering my own question. Google was seen as complicit in censoring free speech in the China market by agreeing to expand into China, and then agreeing to filter search results. I think that *is* a bad thing, for the record. What I don't understand is why Stallman is being given a "Yay Open Source!" free pass on publicly congratulating & praising these repressive, often-times brutal regimes,
A match made in heaven (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:An Old Canard . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
not only the existing ones- but all the people who don't know anything about open source. i think this could be a good thing for linux globally, but for those of us in the u.s. this is going to be the source of a mountain of fud.
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what rhetoric .. (Score:2)
What rhetoric ?, where does it say that. Where did the Cubans adopt the 'rhetoric'?
was: An Old Canard . . . (Score:1)
Re:An Old Canard . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:An Old Canard . . . (Score:4, Funny)
Gosh, maybe Stallman is pitching GNU/Linux to Osama bin Laden in his cave right now, and we can bring the War on Terror into this.
Re:An Old Canard . . . (Score:5, Funny)
He could say, "Wait a minute
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Your comrade,
Bill Gates
What victory? (Score:2, Insightful)
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My thoughts exactly. I mean, just how hard could it be to get communist countries to switch from the American, proprietary, capitalist operating system to the public, owned by nobody, people's effort operating system??
Re:What victory? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't care if your government is democratic, communist, fascist, socialist, or a monarchy - running a modern government requires an assload of elements, systems, and processes to be in sync and dependable.
The ideology has nothing to do with it - the issue is that a complete government switch is taking place, and just because you disagree with the politics has nothing to do with the fact that if linux is suited to run these governments, chances are its well-suited to run many other governments.
Of course, the anarchists would have to do something like switch to an abacus or whatever.
Comical Indeed, Bill Gates Inspired Them! (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how RMS is going to spin this victory to his States-side detractors?
Look no further than the fine AP article for an explanation:
So, thank you Bill Gates for inspiring Cuba and many other countries. The disturbing part of this story is that citizens of the free world willingly give Bill Gates the authority that Fidel Castro will impose by force, and that's the real inspiration provided. I don't have any illusions that Fidel Castro will allow real software freedom anymore than he allows a free press, free association, free worship, so on and so forth. Fidel Castro and his party will be the owners of whatever Linux distribution he makes, just as Bill Gates is the owner of Windoze.
Whatever their motives, software freedom will be better for them. The government will own it's systems but their people using free software may also get a taste for real freedom and have better tools to persue it. Unless they use further M$ tricks like DRM, Cuban computers will work better with really free sotware.
So, how's a dose of reality for a spin? When you use non free software, someone else owns your computer. The non free way of "be so grateful for what my software does for you that you do as I say." When you look behind the rhetoric and lables, what you find is minds that think alike [slashdot.org]. You would never move to Cuba or China because they would strip you of many of your freedoms. Why willingly surrender your software freedom, with all of the dire implications for other freedom of speech, press, and what those freedoms safeguard?
Re:Comical Indeed, Bill Gates Inspired Them! (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed. The irony when more-or-less communist regimes adopt free market solutions like open source while supposedly capitalist countries revel in state-granted monopoly production is palpable.
Looking at the economic history of communism and western economies it's more blind luck and communist incompetence and mismanagement than actual free markets that had the western democracies outperforming the soviet block eventually and for long enough to matter. Our own craptacular market failures like intellectual monopolies could very well have been enough to tip the balance the other way (and, heck, are part of what is tipping the balance the other way compared to China (despite Chinas own economic deficiencies)).
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How about the house or apartment you're in? Pretty nice, how it's all well-built with construction materials and designed by some house manufacturing company. THANKS, CAPITALISM.
And the car you drive to work or school? That thing has an advanced combustion engine built by friggin' robots! THANKS, CAPITALISM.
Just checking... is there any argument lurking in here, or are you just pretending that capitalism
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When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price.
A lot of capitalists are making a lot of money off Linux. I work for an Internet company that runs on a +2000 Linux cluster. We were recently sold for $4 billion. Linux is not about socialism, it's *not* anti-capitalist anymore than Google or IBM is.
The GPL has nothing to do with social equality. It's purpose is to ensure
Re:An Old Canard . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you even know the meaning of socialism? Here it is (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism
"a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."
This would fit the definition of linux and the GNU, except for the fact that the Free Software foundation is at the top (many people give all of their IP rights to the GNU..as described in the license), so, this fits more in this definition:
"a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state"
Which is communism.
I guess you can decide which one applies to linux, but I feel it is somewhere in-between.
If I buy 2000 machines and put linux on them, will someone buy them for $4 billion? I didn't think so. The purchase for 4 billion had nothing to do with linux. It was more about your customers, IP, and work that was put into the company.
"The GPL has nothing to do with social equality. It's purpose is to ensure that great software will continue to evolve. The main restriction it places on a programmer is that he must ensure his code stays open for others to improve upon. He can sell and profit from writing code, and be as much a capitalist as he wants. The GPL doesn't prevent that in the least."
It's not about social equality, it's about software equality. A business does not want to put thousands of hours into R&D (which costs lots of money), sell a piece of software, and then allow anyone to sell it or give it away for free (without having to put any R&D into it). From this aspect, it does not make sense as a business model. It does, however, if the business selling it is not the original developer or they are using it to somehow save money in licensing fees.
When anyone can do something (or in our case, download it), the value of it starts approaching 0.
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What planet do you live on? Cuba's economy tanked in the late 80s (do to lack of freebies from the former Soviet Union) and it's GDP shrank every year until about 2000, at which time it began to grow again, based entirely on freebies from their socialist buddies in Venezuela. Living off of foreign aid (read charity) is hardly what anyone would call a healthy economy.
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maybe you haven't been paying attention the last twenty years, but despite a few oddities (lack of recent imported automobiles, thanks USA), Cuba's economy is remarkably healthy despite the USA's deliberate attempts to sabotage it.
Y'know, that's kinda like saying "he's remarkably healthy for someone who's been eating out of garbage cans for 50 years". Cuba's economy is terrible. When the Soviets collapsed, Cuba's economy really went into the crapper. They're seeing good GDP growth now that they're diversifying away from sugar and into tourism and pharmaceuticals and allowing people to be self-employed; but the per capita GDP of Cuba is second lowest in the Caribbean basin--- Haiti is the lowest, but it's the poorest country in the w
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Unlike, say, nearly fifty years of US trade embargos?
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Is it worth pointing out to those policy makers in the US, that if they lifted the trade embargos against Cuba, the influx of new trade, exchange of information, and monetary flow that would ine
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The damn communists ruin everything.
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Re:Can we get another spokesman? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are many smart and patriotic people in Cuba and Venezuela, and I suspect they will mess with Linux until it really works right for the purposes that the government has in mind. This is a far more honorable course than piracy of MS, which is what most other developing countries choose.
In summary, this is incredibly good for Linux, and only people who think the USA is the entire world could think otherwise.
'almost dictatorial' ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is that like being sort of pregnant? The guy just talked his pets in the legislature to allow him to rule by fiat. He's busy nationalizing industries that other people invested in and paid for. He controls the media, beats up and jails his political opponents, and is an all around jackass. It's bad enough that people like Joe Kennedy like to portray him as some sort of saint, but using him (and Castro) as some sort of victorious case study for Stallman's crusading is not, I think, all that helpful. Unless you like the way Chavez is going. Because in his country, companies like Red Hat would shortly wind up being The Ministry Of Software, and the "evil capitalists" that took the risks to found it, paid the people who got it up and running, and made it a viable enterprise would simply be shoved out the door. It's happening right now in that country, and it's going to get worse.
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Re:Can we get another spokesman? (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets reverse the situation, if RMS stood up with George Bush, or high ranking members of his administration, that would negatively impact the adoption of GNU and other OSS projects in countries where GWB or current American policy is unpopular.
In summary, people using Linux anywhere is good for Linux but having RMS stand with political leaders isn't. Do you really believe that PR machine in Cuba won't use this or that the propaganda they produce won't trickle back into the US?
Re:Can we get another spokesman? (Score:4, Insightful)
Bah.
Just counter "Cuba is going OSS" with "IBM is pushing OSS". If there's one thing IBM is not associated with, it's communism.
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I never suggested, nor do I believe, that the Cuban people or the government shouldn't be using Linux. The problem is simply having RMS go to Cuba and champion ideas that fit well with Castro's regime but few else in the world is harmful to the cause of OSS adoption.
To quote from the article,"Middle-aged communist bureaucrats and ponytailed young Cuban programmers applauded as the computer scientist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology insisted that copyright laws v
Re:Can we get another spokesman? (Score:4, Interesting)
There is one huge difference in character between RMS and you:
RMS says what he thinks, and says who he is. Whereas you are only an
Anonymous Coward on 18-02-07 0:26
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America/ [wikipedia.org]
Re:Since when was Cuba in 'North America'? (Score:4, Funny)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America/ [wikipedia.org]
Since the Triassic Period (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Since the Triassic Period (Score:5, Informative)
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Gentoo since 2006.0 LiveCD, uses a binary install, and a fresh install takes no more than half an hour.
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whats so terrible wrong about that?
I think you're trolling, because the very Wikipedia article you pasted links you directly to the practical [wikipedia.org] and theroetcial [wikipedia.org] horrors of communism.
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